Sport modes biggest failing for the slow to average driver.

[twitcher]

https://screenshots.firefox.com/o4ZhESjFlTIBihhp/www.kudosprime.com





And now we try to switch that unfair lobbies are about platinum trophies instead of unfair races for lower level players, sheesh what is next to try to offer excuses for a legitimate concern for many lower level racers.
The advertising for the game did not say it would be easy to get a platinum trophy but it did damn sure say the matching in sport mode races would be equal competition!


Posted several times in this thread EQUAL COMPETITION, actually says it will use all facets of its new matchmaking system to provide fair races for all.
When a A+ racer is 3 seconds a lap faster than the fastest B racer on the grid and 13 seconds a lap faster than the lowest starting position D racer then how is that considered equal?

e·qual
ˈēkwəl/
adjective
adjective: equal

1. 1.
   being the same in quantity, size, degree, or value.
   "add equal amounts of water and flour"
   synonyms: identical, uniform, alike, like, the same, equivalent; More
   matching, even, comparable, similar, corresponding
   "lines of equal length"
   equivalent to, identical to, amounting to;
   proportionate to;
   commensurate with, on a par with
   
   antonyms: different, more than, less than
   • (of people) having the same status, rights, or opportunities.
   • uniform in application or effect; without discrimination on any grounds.
     "a dedicated campaigner for equal rights"
     synonyms: unbiased, impartial, nonpartisan, fair, just, equitable; More
     unprejudiced, nondiscriminatory, egalitarian;
     neutral, objective, disinterested
     "equal treatment before the law"
     antonyms: discriminatory
   • evenly or fairly balanced.
     "it was hardly an equal contest"
     synonyms: evenly matched, even, balanced, level; More
     on a par, on an equal footing;
     informalfifty-fifty, neck and neck
     "an equal contest"

noun
noun: equal; plural noun: equals

1. 1.
   a person or thing considered to be the same as another in status or quality.
   "we all treat each other as equals"

But this is all that the lower level players in this thread desire, is to race equal competition as the game advertised. A DR B, C or D racer on the grid with A+ OR A Racers is not equal competition.
EVEN IF THEY ARE GOING TO MIX GRIDS IT SHOULD NEVER BE MORE THAN 1 CLASS DIFFERENCE UP OR DOWN MAXIMUM. But D racers should never race higher than a C class racer period, even if the grid is not equal it should not be ridiculous as purring A+ or A racers against a D racer!
You guys are showing no common sense as to what actually should be defined competition and what should be defined talking about easy wins!



And this makes absolutely no difference, there pace is what it is for whatever reason which is really none of your concern.



Some players do not care about points or advancing to even higher levels than where they may be either so not everyone cares about the "points in a lobby".


This says it all very accurately but many are either fine taking the easy wins or do not care about the game in the long term .
76% of GTS players NEVER RAN a sport mode race.
17% of GTS players ran LESS THAN 20 races
6% of GTS players ran OVER 20 races.

The players of GTS that ran either 0 or less than 20 races total 4,847,200 (that is million folks)
The players if GTS that did run at least 1 but less than 20 total 912.100
The players of GTS that have ran over 20 races total 304,500.

Pretty easy to see where the minority is at and it is not just the higher ranking players but ALL OF SPORT MODE.
Funny in a way that 2/3rds of the players that tried sport mode discarded playing it in fewer than 20 races.
Maybe if the races had of been matched better then some more of those 912,000 that ran less than 20 races may have stuck around and the numbers would be better.

And just how many of that 6% that has ran over 20 races is no longer playing sport mode as well? Those numbers do not include them!

EDIT; The latest figures on Kudo's for ACTIVE weekly sport mode players was 105,000. Draw your own conclusions.

But no we have people that are on such high horses that it is very apparent lower level racers deserve to finish towards the rear until their rankings are at the top.
After all you top guys worked for it and put in countless hours and studied other racers for hours to get there.

But if you owned a gaming studio and you needed to make money to stay in business and pay the bills when you look at those numbers would you keep investing in sport mode as the being the core of your next release?

I know if I owned the studio and wanted to make money and attract more players to buy and play my product those numbers tell me sport mode would be an irrelevant part of the next game if it was included at all.

So you guys may want to enjoy sport mode while you can because looking at those numbers it will not be here long. Would have been much better trying to figure out ways to keep the new lower ranked guys involved as then the number of people racing in sport mode would not be such a joke.

With the horrid matching and the broken penalty system if they shut it down today I really could care less. But I am just one of those casual guys playing a game that does not care about advancing level or points so the game according to you guys is not for me anyway!

Shame really because the game had so much potential but really blew it in my opinion, but I know you guys at the top think it is fine as is, again look at those numbers then ho look in the mirror and ask that guy there who do you think you are fooling!

According to Kudo'sView attachment 761289

“None of my concern” relax.

And it is my concern, because it adds context to the discussion.

If someone has never raced competitively in any game, ever before, and GTS is their first go at online racing - yet they’re complaining that it’s too difficult - that adds context to the convo.

If a different person has been playing racing games, online against real people, for years and years, but struggles with GTS, then the context changes, and so does the convo.

Same thing if a person has never played a competitive video game online. If someone is not used to the cut throat nature of online gaming, then GTS can be a shock to them.

“Their pace is their pace” is a little nonsensical as well. Their pace in which cars, on which tracks, on which tires? Some people are really good with high grip, high downforce cars. Others are good at low grip, classic cars. Myself, I tend to be pretty good with street cars, but struggle with LMP1 and formula cars.

I also have over 15 years experience driving circuits like Nurburgring, or Tsukuba, or Suzuka.....but I have less than 5 min experience driving Lago Maggiore. My circuit knowledge makes a massive difference to my pace.

This week alone, in race A, I’m probably a high B, low A. In race B, I’m a D or an E. In race C, I’m probably a C+ to a B...I struggle with the cars, but I know La Sarthe very well, and race strategy is one of my stronger attributes.

So how do you come up with a system that can accurately determine my skill, or my “pace as it is”, from one race to another? And keep in mind that going off of qualifying pace alone is a really poor way to determine someone’s overall skill level and racecraft ability with a given car on a given circuit.

 

[Shottah072]

Some players do not care about points or advancing to even higher levels than where they may be either so not everyone cares about the "points in a lobby".

Well thats fine if they dont care about the points, ranks or improving but the whole of sport mode was build en revolves around just that. And some not caring about it doesnt make the point i made invalid, it still stands.

Wall of text about player retention

To be honest i think the only reason there are still over a hundred thousand of people playing sport mode on a weekly basis is because of the ranking and matchmaking. Without it it would have been a complete ghost town i think. I know its not much but for a online racing game/sim i think its not bad cause you need to realize online racing is just not very popular, as the figures show. Yes maybe PD could have done more to retain players but the simple truth is it was very unlikely from the start that they would get a great deal of casuals into competitive online (sim) racing. The idea and the ambition was good and it would have been amazing if they'd pulled it off but it was just unlikely and obviously it didnt work out that way. Concerning their next title i think it would be wise of them to combine both aspects, so make GT Car Collecter 7 Sport mode 2 in one game and add a carreer mode or something. That way they could please both their fanbases.

 

[Groundfish]

Vfour
You quoted me and for some reason posted a definition of the word equal. I am assuming that’s some way of responding to my inquiry to Kjeldsen about what he means in his opinion when he says equal racing for all. He has yet to respond to my post when I directly asked for his opinion. I never addressed you, sir.
What I asked for was for him to define his version of equality relative to GT Sport. Notice I don’t need to yell the word relative? I asked a very specific question which was ignored. It was for a 16 racer grid what qual time difference from top to bottom constitutes equal.
Is equal a letter next to a name or is it a specific time difference across a grid? What is it?
You chose to use another trick of the wordsmith known as deflection when you chose to try to answer for KJ.
You did not answer the question you simply wordsmithed more unrelated nonsense capping it off with inflammatory language. I’m not saying you don’t have talent at creative writing that’s for sure.
In this entire thread no one aggressively pushing this imo mistaken idea can quantify what equal is relative to a sixteen person lobby.
According to the definition you posted equal is the same so according to your own post the only way GT Sport can provide you with equality across a 16 player grid is equal qualifying times.
So I guess we should add a random number generator to generate the starting positions of these players too?
My current honest opinion is you don’t know what you are even trying to say.
Unless we actually quantify the exact time gap allowed within a sixteen player grid that is acceptable according to your way of thinking to be fair then none of us are even in the same conversation.

Grab a cup of coffee and relax. There’s no need to yell.

 

[kjeldsen]

KJ
Can you define equal relative to this game? Is it the letter next to the name?
What time spread is in your opinion equal racing in a sixteen car grid?

That is a good question, how close is close. Lucky for us GT-S has several parameters and could add many more to help out the matchmaking process.

I would start with the DR rating, and then in that rating class i would look at the qualification time. On top of that i think that GTS could have even more to gauge the drivers with.

In a perfect field the players would be very close to each other all the way down.

And i would make the Q lap a requirement when you get to a certain Class and a minimum time required in the higher classes. And i would of course award the players for the time the use doing Q laps. I would call it Racing Credits (with a daily cap) that is only achievable in online racing and only can be used to buy Unicorns like the 250 GTO.

I am so full of good wishful thinking!

 

[Woodybobs]

And now we try to switch that unfair lobbies are about platinum trophies instead of unfair races for lower level players,

I asked why class results would make a difference to people. Working towards trophies was one of the answers given. For some reason you've ignored the context for those quotes.

Posted several times in this thread EQUAL COMPETITION, actually says it will use all facets of its new matchmaking system to provide fair races for all.

Many grids are populated entirely by people of the same DR level. Fair races for all are provided, just not everytime.

76% of GTS players NEVER RAN a sport mode race.
17% of GTS players ran LESS THAN 20 races
6% of GTS players ran OVER 20 races.

Are these figures good or bad?

 

[Alpha Cipher]

That is a good question, how close is close. Lucky for us GT-S has several parameters and could add many more to help out the matchmaking process.

I would start with the DR rating, and then in that rating class i would look at the qualification time. On top of that i think that GTS could have even more to gauge the drivers with.

In a perfect field the players would be very close to each other all the way down.

And i would make the Q lap a requirement when you get to a certain Class and a minimum time required in the higher classes. And i would of course award the players for the time the use doing Q laps. I would call it Racing Credits (with a daily cap) that is only achievable in online racing and only can be used to buy Unicorns like the 250 GTO.

I am so full of good wishful thinking!

SR was taken out of the equation entirely

But you know, if you can just plug in SR so that you can still expect (relatively) clean racing the idea would work, at least from how I see it

 

[VFOURMAX1]

And it is my concern, because it adds context to the discussion.

If someone has never raced competitively in any game, ever before, and GTS is their first go at online racing - yet they’re complaining that it’s too difficult - that adds context to the convo.

If a different person has been playing racing games, online against real people, for years and years, but struggles with GTS, then the context changes, and so does the convo.

I understand what you are trying to say to a degree but for a game designed for the masses of casual players then it really makes little difference.
If the game chooses to advertise as an on line racing environment being the core of the game then there should be is fair and fun racing for each and every level and level of experience as they advertise for all so again the beginning players expect what was advertised just as much as do the more experienced.

Apparently more that tried sport mode found the game did not provide that with which it advertised as 2/3rds of all players that ever tried sport mode did less than 20 races and dropped out from the playing the mode any longer.

iracing is supposed to the "hard realistic" digital sim experience for those that prefer are looking for that type of experience not GTS.

You quoted me and for some reason posted a definition of the word equal. I am assuming that’s some way of responding to my inquiry to Kjeldsen about what he means in his opinion when he says equal racing for all. He has yet to respond to my post when I directly asked for his opinion. I never addressed you, sir.
What I asked for was for him to define his version of equality relative to GT Sport. Notice I don’t need to yell the word relative? I asked a very specific question which was ignored. It was for a 16 racer grid what qual time difference from top to bottom constitutes equal.
Is equal a letter next to a name or is it a specific time difference across a grid? What is it?
You chose to use another trick of the wordsmith known as deflection when you chose to try to answer for KJ.
You did not answer the question you simply wordsmithed more unrelated nonsense capping it off with inflammatory language. I’m not saying you don’t have talent at creative writing that’s for sure.
In this entire thread no one aggressively pushing this imo mistaken idea can quantify what equal is relative to a sixteen person lobby.
According to the definition you posted equal is the same so according to your own post the only way GT Sport can provide you with equality across a 16 player grid is equal qualifying times.
So I guess we should add a random number generator to generate the starting positions of these players too?
My current honest opinion is you don’t know what you are even trying to say.
Unless we actually quantify the exact time gap allowed within a sixteen player grid that is acceptable according to your way of thinking to be fair then none of us are even in the same conversation

I think more than once you have quoted my post from responses that were addressed to others so get over that, if you only wanted a reply within the thread from a single member in a public forum in a public thread PM may be the better route to pursue.

I do not use tricks or wordsmithing as that seems to be your favorite term to deflect from the facts as you do as the position which you choose actually has no facts to back up what you are supporting other than personal opinions, get gud attitudes and if you are not fast enough to be at the top then you are not deserving types of attitudes but not a single fact that backs up your position.

Below AGAIN is the OFFICIAL GTS release which by the way is a fact that this is what the game advertised and is not delivering and I posted the definition to equal because many offering up their opinions seem to not understand what equal is.

There have been many examples dictating certain circumstances as how that can be considered equal posted that depict multiple levels od differences between lap times and all that comes from those on your side of the tracks is get gud or not enough players, all you want is easy wins or you should not expect to win if you are not at the top anything to deflect from the actual facts presented.

Not a fact one, just get better if you want better results.

Well from my point many FACTS have been offered that support there is a problem or the game fails at what it advertises and even examples that explain why which even those are at times backed up by facts as well and yet here you are still deflecting. I think it has been stated more than once in the last 25 pages that I am not spending the time searching for the post that a gap within a grid of maybe 2 seconds to no more than maybe 3.5 seconds would be satisfactory for most so there is your spread.

But below one more time you were given the definition for EQUAL and you are given below YET AGAIN the factual position on the matching as provided by GTS.

No one on the system does not work as advertised has ask for anything other than what was promised by the games creators, they have not ask for easy wins or platinum trophies that again id just the way that certain sides try to reference to justify a position that has no facts to back up the position they are taking.

The ones that want advocate for changes just want the SAME OPPORTUNITY as those at the top are enjoying every time they enter a sport mode race which is not to race competition in a higher ranking level than themselves. If you do not understand that DR is related to pace or lap times overall then maybe you have a hard time relating to how the higher ranked guys start the race with a clear advantage and the lower ranked guys start the mixed lobby races at a clear disadvantage then I do not know how to explain any further.

Do I need to post the definition for FAIR as well? I just actually gave it to you in the above paragraph with my superior wordsmithing abilities if you need a hint!

Below is the factual release totally supporting my position, please feel free to post a factual GTS release that says otherwise concerning the daily sport mode races.

How to Enjoy Fair and Fun Online Racing: Introducing the 'Sport Mode' of Gran Turismo Sport

Advanced Match Making
To measure the skill of the players, we will be using two indexes, called the 'Driver Rating' (DR) and 'Sportsmanship Rating' (SR). DR indicates how fast a player is, and SR indicates how well-mannered they are during a race. 'Sports Mode' will match drivers of equal level together using these indexes, so that everyone can enjoy good races.

 

[Mr616]

Edited: I'm not derailing the thread anymore.

Carry on

 

[Woodybobs]

That is a good question, how close is close. Lucky for us GT-S has several parameters and could add many more to help out the matchmaking process.

I would start with the DR rating, and then in that rating class i would look at the qualification time. On top of that i think that GTS could have even more to gauge the drivers with.

In a perfect field the players would be very close to each other all the way down.

And i would make the Q lap a requirement when you get to a certain Class and a minimum time required in the higher classes. And i would of course award the players for the time the use doing Q laps. I would call it Racing Credits (with a daily cap) that is only achievable in online racing and only can be used to buy Unicorns like the 250 GTO.

I am so full of good wishful thinking!

DR is calculated by results at all tracks. Using qualifying times to organise grids would skew DR calculations. It makes more sense to allow people to gain/lose points irrespective of how well they do at individual tracks.

 

[Shottah072]

I understand what you are trying to say to a degree but for a game designed for the masses of casual players then it really makes little difference.
If the game chooses to advertise as an on line racing environment being the core of the game then there should be is fair and fun racing for each and every level and level of experience as they advertise for all so again the beginning players expect what was advertised just as much as do the more experienced.

Apparently more that tried sport mode found the game did not provide that with which it advertised as 2/3rds of all players that ever tried sport mode did less than 20 races and dropped out from the playing the mode any longer.

iracing is supposed to the "hard realistic" digital sim experience for those that prefer are looking for that type of experience not GTS.




I think more than once you have quoted my post from responses that were addressed to others so get over that, if you only wanted a reply within the thread from a single member in a public forum in a public thread PM may be the better route to pursue.

I do not use tricks or wordsmithing as that seems to be your favorite term to deflect from the facts as you do as the position which you choose actually has no facts to back up what you are supporting other than personal opinions, get gud attitudes and if you are not fast enough to be at the top then you are not deserving types of attitudes but not a single fact that backs up your position.

Below AGAIN is the OFFICIAL GTS release which by the way is a fact that this is what the game advertised and is not delivering and I posted the definition to equal because many offering up their opinions seem to not understand what equal is.

There have been many examples dictating certain circumstances as how that can be considered equal posted that depict multiple levels od differences between lap times and all that comes from those on your side of the tracks is get gud or not enough players, all you want is easy wins or you should not expect to win if you are not at the top anything to deflect from the actual facts presented.

Not a fact one, just get better if you want better results.

Well from my point many FACTS have been offered that support there is a problem or the game fails at what it advertises and even examples that explain why which even those are at times backed up by facts as well and yet here you are still deflecting. I think it has been stated more than once in the last 25 pages that I am not spending the time searching for the post that a gap within a grid of maybe 2 seconds to no more than maybe 3.5 seconds would be satisfactory for most so there is your spread.

But below one more time you were given the definition for EQUAL and you are given below YET AGAIN the factual position on the matching as provided by GTS.

No one on the system does not work as advertised has ask for anything other than what was promised by the games creators, they have not ask for easy wins or platinum trophies that again id just the way that certain sides try to reference to justify a position that has no facts to back up the position they are taking.

The ones that want advocate for changes just want the SAME OPPORTUNITY as those at the top are enjoying every time they enter a sport mode race which is not to race competition in a higher ranking level than themselves. If you do not understand that DR is related to pace or lap times overall then maybe you have a hard time relating to how the higher ranked guys start the race with a clear advantage and the lower ranked guys start the mixed lobby races at a clear disadvantage then I do not know how to explain any further.

Do I need to post the definition for FAIR as well? I just actually gave it to you in the above paragraph with my superior wordsmithing abilities if you need a hint!

Below is the factual release totally supporting my position, please feel free to post a factual GTS release that says otherwise concerning the daily sport mode races.

You talk about facts and throw around the numbers but your entire claim that player retention is low because of the matchmaking is just one big assumption of yours. There is no facts to support that claim what so ever.

 

[_ApexPredator]

Not a fact one, just get better if you want better results.

I'd say that's a fact.

DR is calculated by results at all tracks. Using qualifying times to organise grids would skew DR calculations. It makes more sense to allow people to gain/lose points irrespective of how well they do at individual tracks.

Yep. That's also why the matchmaking prioritises SR > DR. It's already been said time & time again, but no one thinks it's perfect or ideal, everyone would much prefer grids to never have a rank disparity >1; but there really is no easy answer, and we've yet to really see any evidence despite all these FACTS being thrown around that the problem is even that grave.

More recurrent players would obviously be positive, but I don't think 2/3s not sticking around in Sport Mode is the end of the world*. It was an ambitious step forwards for the franchise, and one that - personally at least - I'm really pleased they took and looking forward to seeing grow & improve in future titles.
*competitive online play isn't for everyone - I wonder what the retention in CoD's Ranked Matches is for players who try it?

When I CBA with Sport Mode (which is often! It's hard!) I'll just race for fun in the lobbies - there's absolutely no matchmaking there, but people still manage to enjoy the racing 💡

Edited: I'm not derailing the thread anymore.

Carry on

 

[poumpoum]

A couple of months ago I've decided to play a Fifa game with a friend after 15 years without playing a football game. The game was fun against AI. After 2 weeks on the game we said to ourselves "We should try it online !". OMG ! Even the lowest ranked players that we were fighting were so good, it was so difficult, I remember that we've only won one game despite trying VERY hard (looking guides, techniques on youtube etc...). Finally we've decided to stop playing online after a couple of days.

1) BREAKING NEWS ! Online gaming / esport IS a COMPETITION with a lot of dedicated players no matter the type of the game => Football, FPS, RTS, MMO, Racing... There are rules, rewards, rankings... all the environnement is made to help you to improve your ranking. Every player wants to be better after each match / game / race. This is how it works, this is the whole concept of it ! You are a casual player on a game (like me with Fifa) then play against AI. You want to fight hard and continually improve yourself then play online.

2) We (racing fans) are so lucky because instead of a binary game like a football game, an FPS game or an RTS game where you can only win or lose a match we have SO many shades of winning ! When I enter a race in Sport Mode, according to my position on the grid and the time I've practiced on the combo, I set my goal for the race !
- "I will not let the second to last go away until the last lap !" -> Excellent races
- "Holding my position in the pack will be hard enough !" -> Excellent races
- "Winning a couple of position is possible !" -> Excellent races

And SOMETIMES if the elements are all aligned
- "Perhaps if I stay highly focused I could get on the last step of the podium !" -> Excellent races

And VERY RARELY
- "I have the pole position, if I make absolutely NO mistakes during all those laps, I could be the One !" -> You know what ? 20 laps in front of everybody is not as fun as it seems

Be better than the society. Stop seeing winning / losing as a black / white stuff. Racing is more about fighting with yourself, use the others only to improve yourself, enjoy driving ! See you on the track

 

[Alpha Cipher]

A couple of months ago I've decided to play a Fifa game with a friend after 15 years without playing a football game. The game was fun against AI. After 2 weeks on the game we said to ourselves "We should try it online !". OMG ! Even the lowest ranked players that we were fighting were so good, it was so difficult, I remember that we've only won one game despite trying VERY hard (looking guides, techniques on youtube etc...). Finally we've decided to stop playing online after a couple of days.

1) BREAKING NEWS ! Online gaming / esport IS a COMPETITION with a lot of dedicated players no matter the type of the game => Football, FPS, RTS, MMO, Racing... There are rules, rewards, rankings... all the environnement is made to help you to improve your ranking. Every player wants to be better after each match / game / race. This is how it works, this is the whole concept of it ! You are a casual player on a game (like me with Fifa) then play against AI. You want to fight hard and continually improve yourself then play online.

2) We (racing fans) are so lucky because instead of a binary game like a football game, an FPS game or an RTS game where you can only win or lose a match we have SO many shades of winning ! When I enter a race in Sport Mode, according to my position on the grid and the time I've practiced on the combo, I set my goal for the race !
- "I will not let the second to last go away until the last lap !" -> Excellent races
- "Holding my position in the pack will be hard enough !" -> Excellent races
- "Winning a couple of position is possible !" -> Excellent races

And SOMETIMES if the elements are all aligned
- "Perhaps if I stay highly focused I could get on the last step of the podium !" -> Excellent races

And VERY RARELY
- "I have the pole position, if I make absolutely NO mistakes during all those laps, I could be the One !" -> You know what ? 20 laps in front of everybody is not as fun as it seems

Be better than the society. Stop seeing winning / losing as a black / white stuff. Racing is more about fighting with yourself, use the others only to improve yourself, enjoy driving ! See you on the track

This!

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Concerning their next title i think it would be wise of them to combine both aspects, so make GT Car Collecter 7 Sport mode 2 in one game and add a carreer mode or something. That way they could please both their fanbases.

In all honesty I think this iteration of the game was a metaphorical rip of the band aid for PD. I've stated it before but eSports is really a marketing component of a video game and building a game towards eSports really only appeals to a niche crowd whose total sales will not keep the lights on.

Now, with that infrastructure in place, I'd imagine that the next version of the game would have a singular goal of getting their financials back on track and focusing more on a more fleshed out career mode and features that appease their original base audience. They really need to develop a realistic and fleshed out race career mode that follows a rag to riches progression through karting and/or street racing. It's a real lost opportunity.

 

[WheelmanSteve]

Realizing I'm very late to this party, I will say this: I can live with the matchmaking where it relates to lap time. I know I'm not the fastest guy out there. I have a real, very stressful job, and a family. I need to eat, spend time with them, and exercise so I don't turn into an older fatter guy, so I don't put as much time into the game as I could. I think the game is failing almost entirely in the "SR" category. I've been "S" almost since day 1, including the beta. I've dropped to "A" a couple of times (maybe B once? Can't remember.) I always climbed right back up. Yet I find myself in grids where push-to-pass is the rule. I can do consistent laps, and I can learn the circuits. (I know most of them very well, after GT4, GT5, GT6, GP Legends, Sports Car GT,the GTR Mod, GTR, GTR2, TOCA 3, SHIFT, SHIFT 2, and GRID Autosport...) I can run a full race right on your bumper without hitting you. What I really don't want to do is share the track with players who are perfectly willing to make moves that in a real race would result in injury or death to both drivers. I think if you're blowing the braking zone and playing bumper cars it should be much more heavily penalized. If PD is worried that harsher penalties will scare off players, then they need to understand that the current SR system is what keeps me playing once or twice a week instead of every day, and I'm sure I'm not alone. An out-of-control dive bomb into T1 should be 10 places. A second similar move in the same event should be a DQ and a 2 rank drop in SR. SR "S" should really mean something- sadly, today, it really doesn't.

 

[AUTISTICBOYX]

A couple of months ago I've decided to play a Fifa game with a friend after 15 years without playing a football game. The game was fun against AI. After 2 weeks on the game we said to ourselves "We should try it online !". OMG ! Even the lowest ranked players that we were fighting were so good, it was so difficult, I remember that we've only won one game despite trying VERY hard (looking guides, techniques on youtube etc...). Finally we've decided to stop playing online after a couple of days.

1) BREAKING NEWS ! Online gaming / esport IS a COMPETITION with a lot of dedicated players no matter the type of the game => Football, FPS, RTS, MMO, Racing... There are rules, rewards, rankings... all the environnement is made to help you to improve your ranking. Every player wants to be better after each match / game / race. This is how it works, this is the whole concept of it ! You are a casual player on a game (like me with Fifa) then play against AI. You want to fight hard and continually improve yourself then play online.

2) We (racing fans) are so lucky because instead of a binary game like a football game, an FPS game or an RTS game where you can only win or lose a match we have SO many shades of winning ! When I enter a race in Sport Mode, according to my position on the grid and the time I've practiced on the combo, I set my goal for the race !
- "I will not let the second to last go away until the last lap !" -> Excellent races
- "Holding my position in the pack will be hard enough !" -> Excellent races
- "Winning a couple of position is possible !" -> Excellent races

And SOMETIMES if the elements are all aligned
- "Perhaps if I stay highly focused I could get on the last step of the podium !" -> Excellent races

And VERY RARELY
- "I have the pole position, if I make absolutely NO mistakes during all those laps, I could be the One !" -> You know what ? 20 laps in front of everybody is not as fun as it seems

Be better than the society. Stop seeing winning / losing as a black / white stuff. Racing is more about fighting with yourself, use the others only to improve yourself, enjoy driving ! See you on the track

Since i've played Fifa around semi-pro level couple of years back i can explain why its a little difficult to be effective against anyone when you're completely fresh. If we draw a direct comparison to a game like GTS, imagine if certain corner-cutting on a track not only rewarded impunity but also boosted your speed, like a power-up in certain games. A racing game like that would be all about hitting those power-ups consistently, right? Well that's basically FIFA. You have to abuse a myriad of in-game mechanics and game weaknesses in order to prevail. Beside this, the game is very scripted. For example, you will almost never be able to score a goal from certain angles, conversely, shots from some angles basically guarantees a goal. Not to mention that often it is a grave concession to defend manually (even in Pro games), how crazy is that? Comparatively it would be like programming auto-drive to Alien level and employing it on difficult turns...

I could go on but i hope this was informative.

 

[twitcher]

*snip*

Apparently more that tried sport mode found the game did not provide that with which it advertised as 2/3rds of all players that ever tried sport mode did less than 20 races and dropped out from the playing the mode any longer.

iracing is supposed to the "hard realistic" digital sim experience for those that prefer are looking for that type of experience not GTS

I won’t deny that the match making system has played some part in the lack of success of sport mode, but I don’t think it’s the only, or even primary, reason for sport mode not being as successful as many thought it could be.

Personally, I think most of the blame falls on the shoulders of players who had completely unrealistic expectations of what to expect from their very first online racing experience.

I’m also a firm believer that on planet earth, there just aren’t that many people interested in car racing. Lots of people enjoy cars, very few of them give a crap about or have even the most basic understanding of racing.

If you are looking for entities to blame for the lack of success of sport mode, the primary blame falls not with Kaz and PD, but rather with a guy named Bernie, and the FIA, who spent the better part of the last 30 years pushing the general public away from racing, sanitizing it beyond recognition, and more recently, say 5-10 years ago, actively berated and belittled the sim racing community.


Could the match making system in GTS be improved? Absolutely. But it’s not terrible. PD is already delving into unknown territory with trying to design a match making system for the sim racing community, and for a first try, I’d say they did pretty good. Hopefully they expand upon it (its PD, so who knows, they’ll probably scrap the whole thing and try to start from scratch with the next game, only to end up in the same spot lol).

 

[Mr616]

Realizing I'm very late to this party, I will say this: I can live with the matchmaking where it relates to lap time. I know I'm not the fastest guy out there. I have a real, very stressful job, and a family. I need to eat, spend time with them, and exercise so I don't turn into an older fatter guy, so I don't put as much time into the game as I could. I think the game is failing almost entirely in the "SR" category. I've been "S" almost since day 1, including the beta. I've dropped to "A" a couple of times (maybe B once? Can't remember.) I always climbed right back up. Yet I find myself in grids where push-to-pass is the rule. I can do consistent laps, and I can learn the circuits. (I know most of them very well, after GT4, GT5, GT6, GP Legends, Sports Car GT,the GTR Mod, GTR, GTR2, TOCA 3, SHIFT, SHIFT 2, and GRID Autosport...) I can run a full race right on your bumper without hitting you. What I really don't want to do is share the track with players who are perfectly willing to make moves that in a real race would result in injury or death to both drivers. I think if you're blowing the braking zone and playing bumper cars it should be much more heavily penalized. If PD is worried that harsher penalties will scare off players, then they need to understand that the current SR system is what keeps me playing once or twice a week instead of every day, and I'm sure I'm not alone. An out-of-control dive bomb into T1 should be 10 places. A second similar move in the same event should be a DQ and a 2 rank drop in SR. SR "S" should really mean something- sadly, today, it really doesn't.

@Outspacer has some good thoughts on how to improve the SR system (which we discussed to death in another thread, so I don't want to derail this thread... again lol) which I agree with you, is a major bugbear. SR:S should mean super super clean (drive as if it's real) but sadly that's not the case. I think the major issue here is game players versus motor sport enthusiasts.

I must add though, that as a pick up and play, match-made system, the driving standards on the whole are better than any other I have played on console without having to join an organised league. There are some people who will always game the system or try to ruin somebody else's day.

 

[kjeldsen]

Fully agree. To be clear, the post you quoted, I was being sarcastic.

Not meant as an insult to anyone reading this, more just an observation from reading the thread - it seems like the word “deserve” comes up a lot, in conjunction with the word “win”. We can get into a whole discussion about just those two words, but I think there’s something to the notion that it’s just the way of thinking of a perhaps younger or less experienced group of players.

I really need you to quote those that wrote "they deserve to win" it is a pretty strong claim to make.

For example, some of the people asking for better match making - what is there overall experience with online racing? Is GTS their first kick at the can, or have they been doing this for years, across multiple titles? What is their history of playing other, competitive games online (eg FPS, or MMO).

Played wow since the beta 2004, played hour long Altarak battlegrounds to get a mount. Did 40 man runs in Molten Core, of course by the standards made here, killing nefarious is NOTHING and just something casual players did, the real hardcore players had Naxx on farm.

I think there’s 2 things at play here perhaps. One, I think there’s a group of people who have been playing Gran Turismo for a long time, but GTS is their first go at head to head racing against other humans - and they’re finding it overwhelming. This group of people is used to racing against the AI, or maybe their buddy in split screen.

WRONG, everyone posting in this thread is still playing the game, even if the matchmaking sucks, most have hundred of races under their skin.

They’re being hit with the realization that in order to be competitive in online racing, there is an incredible wealth of knowledge, understanding, and skill which must be attained.

I guess the point you are trying to make is that not everyone can be a winner.. WELL OMG REALLY!
The point everyone that wants matchmaking is that they better racing, more motivation and a chance.. a CHANCE of a win.

Second, I think we’re seeing the results of an entire generation being raised on video games which hand out “platinum trophies” like they’re candy.

I haven't earned a single Platinum trophy since i got my first PSX and the only trophy hunters i know are those that fall in love with a game and they are more rare than the Schumacher achievement... Your observation is beyond anecdotal.

Today, for nearly every game that people buy, if they’re trophy hunting, before they even put the game in their machine, they’ve already looked up all the trophies, and the strategies on how to get them as fast and easily as possible. The vast majority of these trophies require nothing more than a time sink, or learning to exploit a certain game mechanic.

HELLO SR TANKING HOW ARE YOU DOING

And when these people collect all the trophies for a given game, they claim that they have “mastered the game”.

Well I’m sorry, if you’re only a D rank driver in GT Sport, you haven’t mastered anything, and you don’t deserve to have a platinum trophy which is supposed to indicate you have mastered one of the most difficult aspects of the game (and it happens to be a discipline, namely motor racing and race craft, which is one of the most complex forms of competition that humans partake in).

High horse trophy unlocked, in a thread about Matchmaking you end up suggesting that a DR D driver wants a Platinum trophy.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

High horse trophy unlocked, in a thread about Matchmaking you end up suggesting that a DR D driver wants a Platinum trophy.

That is good!

 

[twitcher]

I really need you to quote those that wrote "they deserve to win" it is a pretty strong claim to make.


Played wow since the beta 2004, played hour long Altarak battlegrounds to get a mount. Did 40 man runs in Molten Core, of course by the standards made here, killing nefarious is NOTHING and just something casual players did, the real hardcore players had Naxx on farm.

WRONG, everyone posting in this thread is still playing the game, even if the matchmaking sucks, most have hundred of races under their skin.
I guess the point you are trying to make is that not everyone can be a winner.. WELL OMG REALLY!
The point everyone that wants matchmaking is that they better racing, more motivation and a chance.. a CHANCE of a win.

I haven't earned a single Platinum trophy since i got my first PSX and the only trophy hunters i know are those that fall in love with a game and they are more rare than the Schumacher achievement... Your observation is beyond anecdotal.
HELLO SR TANKING HOW ARE YOU DOING

High horse trophy unlocked, in a thread about Matchmaking you end up suggesting that a DR D driver wants a Platinum trophy.

I knew there would be at least one person who got a little upset by my post. Congrats on being that guy 👍

The point everyone that wants matchmaking is that they better racing, more motivation and a chance.. a CHANCE of a win.

Sorry mate, you’ve just sunk your own battleship. You just illustrated that you want the game to provide your motivation for you. That’s really sad, I feel bad for you. But until you can learn to motivate yourself from within, and not be motivated by some algorithm in a video game, I don’t really care to continue conversing with you. Have a nice day.

 

[rono_thomas]

I knew there would be at least one person who got a little upset by my post. Congrats on being that guy 👍

Thats one of those fallacy thingy emy bobbies, your better than that:tup:

that you want the game to provide your motivation for you.

Pretty sure thats every games studio ambition, to provide motivation for consumers to play their game, how else to the tills go ker ching ching.

 

[kjeldsen]

I knew there would be at least one person who got a little upset by my post. Congrats on being that guy 👍

Sorry mate, you’ve just sunk your own battleship. You just illustrated that you want the game to provide your motivation for you. That’s really sad, I feel bad for you. But until you can learn to motivate yourself from within, and not be motivated by some algorithm in a video game, I don’t really care to continue conversing with you. Have a nice day.

Amazing counterpoints! NOT A SINGLE ONE! No Counterpoints Trophy UNLOCKED.. soon you will have earned an easy Platinum Trophy!

And, if you had read the thread you would KNOW that i don't really care about winning and my races are always about the guy in front of me and behind me. So *golf clap* on not getting it.. amazing job!

I have seen many things in forum discussions but this thread is up there with some of the most astounding revelations of fellow players.

Ignores that sports have matchmakings, the answer is to "get good". Not a single counter argument when i suggest that it is like asking an amateur to go against Mike Tyson. Ignorance is a bliss when Soccer all over the world is SHARPLY divided into countless numbers of different divisions and age groups.

YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, that racing games are special, it requires skill! Unlike any other game that is out there and accepting that people can have fun with each other on different skill levels is fundamental WRONG, it is free for all or NOTHING!

Winning a race in a DR D class is fake, then so is every other win unless you have a DR S rating.. Just like being the best in the 2nd division in any sports is just a fake way to keep people playing soccer, and getting fake trophies are just so they can think they won something.. but UNDERSTAND they won nothing.. hahaha losers..

 

[AUTISTICBOYX]

Thats one of those fallacy thingy emy bobbies, your better than that:tup:



Pretty sure thats every games studio ambition, to provide motivation for consumers to play their game, how else to the tills gobker ching ching.

How about having fun as motivation? Used to work wonders with super mario and zelda back in -91(?) later with quake and counter-strike on PC back in 97-99.

What changed? Ah right, the entitled clientele. It all started with the achievement cancer with call of duty. When losers were rewarded participation trophies for being bad.

 

[rono_thomas]

How about having fun as motivation?

Perspective, subjective, nowt to do with entitlement, evidence?

Try again.

So games companies do not create games with all the fancy new bells and whistles and fancy advertising gimmicks to go out and buy their game, to motivate those sales? Sport Mode is exclusive to this.

 

[twitcher]

Amazing counterpoints! NOT A SINGLE ONE! No Counterpoints Trophy UNLOCKED.. soon you will have earned an easy Platinum Trophy!

And, if you had read the thread you would KNOW that i don't really care about winning and my races are always about the guy in front of me and behind me. So *golf clap* on not getting it.. amazing job!

I have seen many things in forum discussions but this thread is up there with some of the most astounding revelations of fellow players.

Ignores that sports have matchmakings, the answer is to "get good". Not a single counter argument when i suggest that it is like asking an amateur to go against Mike Tyson. Ignorance is a bliss when Soccer all over the world is SHARPLY divided into countless numbers of different divisions and age groups.

YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, that racing games are special, it requires skill! Unlike any other game that is out there and accepting that people can have fun with each other on different skill levels is fundamental WRONG, it is free for all or NOTHING!

Winning a race in a DR D class is fake, then so is every other win unless you have a DR S rating.. Just like being the best in the 2nd division in any sports is just a fake way to keep people playing soccer, and getting fake trophies are just so they can think they won something.. but UNDERSTAND they won nothing.. hahaha losers..

I told you I don’t really want to keep talking with you, you keep yelling, you need to calm down man.

Of course all sports are divided by match making. I play beer league baseball and beer league soccer. Even in our “E league” there is a very wide array of skill levels, and the good players make the bad ones look silly, every game.

 

[AUTISTICBOYX]

Perspective, subjective, nowt to do with entitlement, evidence?

Try again.

People used to flock around those mainstream games in a time with no artificial 'carrots' to chase. Shoot in the head or be shot and deal with it was the norm. Those games grew rapidly based on fun and nothing else. Do you think for a second the "matchmaking" was balanced, accessible and noob-friendly? It was free-for-all carnage. The only incentives were literally fun and bolstering your competitiveness by becoming a better player.

 

[rono_thomas]

People used to flock around those mainstream games in a time with no artificial 'carrots' to chase. Shoot in the head or be shot and deal with it was the norm. Those games grew rapidly based on fun and nothing else. Do you think for a second the "matchmaking" was balanced, accessible and noob-friendly? It was free-for-all carnage. The only incentives were literally fun and bolstering your competiveness by becoming a better player.

And yet no motivation was garnered by the game, oh wait. That is my point dont forget.

 

[AUTISTICBOYX]

And yet no motivation was garnered by the game, oh wait. That is my point dont forget.

Motivation is ultimately provided by yourself not by the entity involved. It doesn't matter how beneficial the exercise is when you have no desire to commit to it.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

How about having fun as motivation? Used to work wonders with super mario and zelda back in -91(?) later with quake and counter-strike on PC back in 97-99.

What changed? Ah right, the entitled clientele. It all started with the achievement cancer with call of duty. When losers were rewarded participation trophies for being bad.

But didn't in those games mario and zelda you advanced levels aka beat the lower level first before you went to the next level and each level it got a little harder? Hell even pac man got harder with more and faster opponents the higher the level you went.

I do not think I have played any games that you started off facing the competition which may well be the top level bosses in the game while you were just a player in the first few lower levels.

So how is this game the same as those, a guy with 10 races only just starting first level first level can be matched against the big boss which is 5 levels higher?

Not the same, even space invaders had levels and only got harder as you advanced to higher levels and how old is that game?

The concept of ladders to advance to higher difficulty levels has been around since Pong, where the ball moved faster and the paddle got smaller the more you advanced levels.

This is about the only game I have played that does not recognize experience or levels.