Sport modes biggest failing for the slow to average driver.

[gapper59]

As for tuning, I like it better without it. At least I know I'm using the same tool when racing someone else in the same car and it's all about race craft instead of different settings. Sure there's still wheel vs controller, AT vs MT and whatever aids. Yet those are all pretty balanced in risk vs reward. A tune that goes 2 sec per lap faster is not. GR.1 is a mess with bop anyway so might as well add tuning. However GR.3 is pretty balanced (bar some exceptions), hopefully tuning stays out of it.

I had no idea they allowed tuning till I saw this.

When did that start and is it for all three races?
Not too good at tuning so this will make things harder and more time-consuming. An even bigger advantage for the insanely quick drivers I had no chance of catching when we all had the same setups

 

[Sven Jurgens]

This is why I say video games should diverge from real life, because what you described doesn’t happen in real life.

Furthermore, this approach will cause issues for the group of people who want the game to be as realistic as possible. Take for example Circuit de La Sarthe. In real life, the real racing line goes 4 wheels beyond the white lines at multiple parts on the circuit, one of the most notable being the exit of the first chicane on the Mulsanne Straight.

If PD were to implement track limits like you suggest, there would be a whole group of people on the forums complaining that they can’t use the real life racing line.

So again, if PD would use things like walls, grass, and gravel to define track limits, people abusing track limits wouldn’t be an issue. If they continue to mimic real life and use paved runoff, track limits will always be an issue.


Just as an aside, when you are referring to “keeping 2 wheels inside the circuit,” are you picturing keeping 1/2 the car width inside the circuit, or literall just 2 wheels? And how much of the 2 wheels need to be inside the circuit? I only ask this because a lot of people talk about “2 wheels inside the circuit”, when 2 wheels inside the circuit can be stretched to basically the whole car, minus 1mm of tire, outside the circuit. What most people picture when they talk about “2 wheels inside the circuit” is actually more like “1/2 a car inside the circuit”.

The way I drive I try to keep the inside wheels inside the white lines, not on, not touching. Of course I'm mostly guessing in bumper cam as I can't see my wheels So indeed closer to half the car on the 'track'.

Sarthe is part road circuit, hence the painted lines aren't always the same as those used for racing. In real life you have a briefing before the race to explain the track limits to every one. In the game, guess! It's not even consistent between runs as the penalties often won't pop up until you go at a certain speed over the invisible barrier. Then it doesn't seem to be the same between qualifying and race (so I've heard)

Instead of the driving line aid, why not have a track limit aid. As for realism, jumping curbs should do damage to the car. PD did make the wheels a bit less grippy after ending up in the gravel. Good idea. except when you get punted off.

I'm still not sure where the track limits are from Indianapolis to Arnage, no clue, just stay in the middle to be sure. It seems random when I do get a track penalty there. The corner onto the long straight is very inconsistent as well. I've cut it an inch and got a penalty, cut it by several feet and no penalty. Make up your mind game. Same on the outside.

I had no idea they allowed tuning till I saw this.

When did that start and is it for all three races?
Not too good at tuning so this will make things harder and more time-consuming. An even bigger advantage for the insanely quick drivers I had no chance of catching when we all had the same setups

It has been allowed a few times for some races. This week full settings can be changed for the daily C on Sarthe, GR.1. I'm not sure about the daily A, definitely not allowed for the daily B this week.

Tuning has been available before for Nxxx races, first time I believe for GR.1

 

[Mr616]

So you disagree that A should be matched with A(A+), B with B, C with C, D with D?

No that's not what I'm saying. People should be matched by skill where possible. But what I got from this thread was that people were thinking if the dream lobbies were always available, that they would win races. Regardless of how many of a certain DR are in a lobby, the fastest will always be the fastest until the slower players improve, or they drop a level. If they do drop, and are the fastest in that new group, is it then fair to assume that it is unfair on those slower in that rank?

Who said anything about winning for a majority of the time? Who said anything about automatically assuming they can achieve everything in the game?

You really don’t understand that there’s a difference between not winning and never having had even the smallest hope of winning.

I do understand completely, which is why I still play win or lose. I love racing online, and love motorosport in general.

I'm crap at a lot of things. Some of those things I still do because I enjoy them. I don't expect to win/get better because, well, I know I'm not good at it. I except that. I raced RC touring cars for years in clubs. I never ever won a race. I was always mid pack B split. Sometimes I'd make an A final and get toasted. Still enjoyed it, even without a hope of winning. I suppose I should've demanded easier grids or given up right?

 

[Shottah072]

So you disagree that A should be matched with A(A+), B with B, C with C, D with D?

In a perfect world where hundreds of thousands people log in everyday to play and it would be easy to fill grids with equal drivers. No i would not disagree. But with al those people playing that would be the case anyway with the current matchmaking.

In the real world where this means 4 player grids. Yes i would definetly disagree.

 

[rono_thomas]

If they do drop, and are the fastest in that new group, is it then fair to assume that it is unfair on those slower in that rank?

It has been argued that once a DR level always a DR level, I guess what your asking me all depends on if the DR reduction was due to an SR loss or if it was pace. If its the former then yes its unfair, latter no its not.

In the real world where this means 4 player grids. Yes i would definetly disagree.

It makes no difference except for pretty replays and puctures.

 

[kjeldsen]

But what I got from this thread was that people were thinking if the dream lobbies were always available, that they would win races.

What people would that be?

The conclusion from this thread is that there is a bunch that wants Matchmaking.
And then there is a big group that doesn't want that, for reasons still not really explained.

However, they are not able to explain how it can be that in the best and most successful online games matchmaking is a given feature. And players on every skill level needs to be recognized. And how it can be that in other sports like soccer, basketball etc you have sharply divided ranks of clubs and players. Golf even goes so far and puts a handicap on every player so everyone can play against each other.

On the side to that discussion i have raised several ideas, valid and crazy on what could be done to raise the interest for casual players. 3 weekly races sucks for anyone except the hardcore GT players.

 

[Shottah072]

It makes no difference except for pretty replays and puctures.

I like pretty replays.

And it does make a difference. No risk of loosing big points to lower drivers. No chance to gain big points from higher drivers.

 

[rono_thomas]

And it does make a difference. No risk of loosing big points to lower drivers. No chance to gain big points from higher drivers.

And yet when sport mode is fully populated neither does this happen then.

 

[Shottah072]

And yet when sport mode is fully populated neither does this happen then.

No but we would have full grids.

Edit: and with full grids of equal drivers you could still lose or gain big points. In a 4 equal player grid you'd only have very small gains or losses

 

[Groundfish]

Another reason for qualifying is testing track limits.
I started doing this in areas I shave a bit to see when a penalty comes after getting penalties in qualifying.
Got the test idea after watching a stream of FIA.
The streamer showed himself testing in certain spots during quali.
Again you sure can benefit from efforts spent qualifying.
Often I’ll download a stars run and watch the in car. Helps me a lot only realized I could do it after maybe 50-60 races or so.
I love the games quality but I can’t handle race after race after race. I’ve done maybe 3 4 lap sprints in a row. Too intense for myself. adrenaline.
It’s way different from racing your friends talking trash in a regular lobby.

 

[Mr616]

In a perfect world where hundreds of thousands people log in everyday to play and it would be easy to fill grids with equal drivers. No i would not disagree. But with al those people playing that would be the case anyway with the current matchmaking.

In the real world where this means 4 player grids. Yes i would definetly disagree.

And to add to this, racing faster players teaches you a lot.

For those that are interested, I've been matched with Shottah in the past. He was at the front of the grid, I was at the back. He was a DR level higher and much quicker. I buzzed off sharing the tarmac with him and took the opportunity to learn off the other fast guys in the race. It made me want to get better.

I studied the replay after the race to see where the fast players were making up time to see if I could improve, but players must understand their own limitations. Not everybody can be an alien, no matter how hard they try, me included.

I'd hate 4 player grids, no matter how closely matched. That's not racing imo. Not for sport mode anyway. Fun friend lobbies with 2 or 3 is fine, but not public matchmade lobbies.

 

[rono_thomas]

No but we would have full grids.

So lets miss match for full grids 👍.

 

[twitcher]

The way I drive I try to keep the inside wheels inside the white lines, not on, not touching. Of course I'm mostly guessing in bumper cam as I can't see my wheels So indeed closer to half the car on the 'track'.

So that’s you’re own personal definition of what track limits should be. It’s not wrong, not at all - it’s just your interpretation.

In real series like F1, drivers are allowed to touch, even nearly fully cross the white line, with the inside wheels. For them, “in bounds” is having any portion of the two inside tires touching the white line. It gets a little weird from one corner to the next, as tire deflection comes into play, meaning that the track limits change by a few millemeters to few centimetres. And like you, they’re flying blind, basically guessing at the final few millemeters whether or not they’re in or out. This is why at a corner like Club at Silverstone, they’ve added a sausage curb that runs parallel to the circuit, so drivers have a physical object to feel with the outside wheels.

On the other end of the spectrum, you can look at a specific location in a different series - namely the pit exit at Indycar’s Long Beach GP. Here, drivers must not cross the pit exit line when merging back into traffic, and drivers on the racing line cannot move to drivers right into the pit exit.

- the drivers on the racing circuit get a zero tolerance policy for even touching the blue pit exit line. It is treated like a wall, you cannot cross it with any part of the car. (See Sebastian Bourdais “triple overtake” from the 2018 race, which he had to redress, because he crossed the pit exit line).
- the drivers on pit exit, merging into traffic, follow a different set of guidelines. They are not allowed to cross the line at all, until they get to the very end of the line, where they are allowed to cut across the painted blue line, but with only half the car. To enforce the line at this specific spot, the cars are fitted with a transponder (placed in center of the car), and a corresponding transponder is embedded in the road surface at the end of the line. This way, there is no guess work for the officials, out is out, and there’s no argument. This system was adapted after the, iirc 2015 race, where Simon Pageneut complete a move for the race lead while exiting the pit lane, and cutting across the end of the pit exit.

So, there you have 3 instances where, in real life, painted lines are enforced in different ways. It depends on the series, the cars, and the specific line in question.

My point is, in the virtual realm, why not do away with painted lines in seas of asphalt, and use either walls, or low grip surfaces (grass, gravel) to define track limits. It will eliminate 99% of the issues with track limits.

Sarthe is part road circuit, hence the painted lines aren't always the same as those used for racing. In real life you have a briefing before the race to explain the track limits to every one. In the game, guess! It's not even consistent between runs as the penalties often won't pop up until you go at a certain speed over the invisible barrier. Then it doesn't seem to be the same between qualifying and race (so I've heard)

Instead of the driving line aid, why not have a track limit aid. As for realism, jumping curbs should do damage to the car. PD did make the wheels a bit less grippy after ending up in the gravel. Good idea. except when you get punted off.

I'm still not sure where the track limits are from Indianapolis to Arnage, no clue, just stay in the middle to be sure. It seems random when I do get a track penalty there. The corner onto the long straight is very inconsistent as well. I've cut it an inch and got a penalty, cut it by several feet and no penalty. Make up your mind game. Same on the outside.




It has been allowed a few times for some races. This week full settings can be changed for the daily C on Sarthe, GR.1. I'm not sure about the daily A, definitely not allowed for the daily B this week.

Tuning has been available before for Nxxx races, first time I believe for GR.1

I think the game calculates whether or not you actually gain time by going off the circuit, not just IF you go off the circuit.

I’ve had lots of times where I’ve gone off, kept my foot in, and got a penalty. Next lap, same off, a small lift, no penalty.

F1 does this. They have computers running, calculating micro sectors. If a driver goes 4 wheels off the circuit, the officials look at their computers to see if actual time was gained in the corner. If not, no penalty or warning is issued. My issue with this method is that while yes it prevents people from setting faster lap times by going off the circuit, it does not punish mistakes (paved runoff can be used to save a situation that would be either detrimental or catastrophic to a lap/race, regardless if you actually gain time or not by going off the circuit).

 

[Mr616]

What people would that be?

The conclusion from this thread is that there is a bunch that wants Matchmaking.
And then there is a big group that doesn't want that, for reasons still not really explained.

However, they are not able to explain how it can be that in the best and most successful online games matchmaking is a given feature. And players on every skill level needs to be recognized. And how it can be that in other sports like soccer, basketball etc you have sharply divided ranks of clubs and players. Golf even goes so far and puts a handicap on every player so everyone can play against each other.

On the side to that discussion i have raised several ideas, valid and crazy on what could be done to raise the interest for casual players. 3 weekly races sucks for anyone except the hardcore GT players.

Read all of my replies here. I've covered this more than once with examples of perfect matchmaking still seeing the faster in that given rank still winning.

The cod forums were always moaning about bad matchmaking over years and years of releases. Either bad team mates or people much better than them battering their oh so precious KD.

MMO games have always had complaints about how much time is required to achieve everything. The casual wants everything easy but will be here today gone tomorrow, where the hardcore will play regardless and enjoy the grind/challenge.

 

[Sander 001]

No that's not what I'm saying. People should be matched by skill where possible. But what I got from this thread was that people were thinking if the dream lobbies were always available, that they would win races. Regardless of how many of a certain DR are in a lobby, the fastest will always be the fastest until the slower players improve, or they drop a level. If they do drop, and are the fastest in that new group, is it then fair to assume that it is unfair on those slower in that rank?



I do understand completely, which is why I still play win or lose. I love racing online, and love motorosport in general.

I'm crap at a lot of things. Some of those things I still do because I enjoy them. I don't expect to win/get better because, well, I know I'm not good at it. I except that. I raced RC touring cars for years in clubs. I never ever won a race. I was always mid pack B split. Sometimes I'd make an A final and get toasted. Still enjoyed it, even without a hope of winning. I suppose I should've demanded easier grids or given up right?

Sounds like you did give up.

Also sounds like you’re comparing real racing with a video game. And there are more false equivalences with that comparison than stars in the sky.

 

[twitcher]

Read all of my replies here. I've covered this more than once with examples of perfect matchmaking still seeing the faster in that given rank still winning.

The cod forums were always moaning about bad matchmaking over years and years of releases. Either bad team mates or people much better than them battering their oh so precious KD.

MMO games have always had complaints about how much time is required to achieve everything. The casual wants everything easy but will be here today gone tomorrow, where the hardcore will play regardless and enjoy the grind/challenge.

To add to this point, can you, or anyone, name a game (from any genre) that had a good, successful match making system that the people at the extreme ends of the spectrum didn’t complain about?

Is there precedent set for the type of match making system people are actually asking for here, or are we looking at charting unknown territory here?

 

[Mr616]

Sounds like you did give up.

Also sounds like you’re comparing real racing with a video game. And there are more false equivalences with that comparison than stars in the sky.

RC cars is not real racing lol. It's a game at local level. I attended one national and boy they were fast. Still entered and enjoyed it. No hope of winning either.

I race Scalextric for fun with 2 other friends. Myself and 1 friend are quick and the other not so much. He plays because it's fun.

How did you assume I gave up by the way?

I'm off out so sorry if I don't reply.

By the way, this is not an argument. This is discussion and may help find a solution for all. Something that crossed my mind was DR leagues with promotions and demotions kinda thing. Only a fleeting thought and didn't think into it to much but thought I'd throw it out there.

@twitcher Not that I know of. Very hard to appease both ends of the sprectrum.

 

[Shottah072]

So lets miss match for full grids 👍.

Though not ideal for anyone, still better then 4 player grids imo.

I've played nearly every racing game online there is out there. None of them provide what your asking for and none of them provide regular clean online racing with full grids like GTS does except iRacing. But in iRacing lobbys the skill spread is also pretty big.

 

[rono_thomas]

Though not ideal for anyone, still better then 4 player grids imo.

But it would make 0 diffrence, zero, if your grids were filled or not filled during off peak hours when this tends to occur at least in euro.

Its an impression thing, a look thing, a feeling thing.

But the important thing to notice is that during certain times sport mode DOES mismatch, and then that is bound to IRK the lower ranked, that is understandable. And a complaint that is worth listening to.

 

[simsimsheree]

Are we sure it would devolve into only 4 car grids? If we look at Kudosprime's stats, it seems that there is a weighting more towards the lower ends than the high, as far as player count at any one particular range. I hate to say it, but the people crying for the looser system may well be at the upper end of the skill system, and it may very well be only them stuck with small grids if matchmaking were more restricted.

TBH, I'd rather race a 4 car grid of EXTREMELY tightly matched lap times than 20+ varying from aliens to bashers! In theory, you should end up all in sight of each other at the finish with the tighter but smaller grid. I rarely experience a full grid with more than a handful in sight of each other on the final straight on the final lap anyway. How would a 4 car grid of well matched drivers be any different?

One thing that might very well set up tighter racing, though, is a restricted qualy system. You know, like real life, LOL. 10 laps, tops. Practice all you like in the qualy rooms, but you need to have a 'start' button for your timed laps, and once pressed, no further sessions count. We have all seen awful drivers with great qualy laps, simply by doing lap after lap after lap shaving a bit each now and again. I'd like to see a set time for qualy, one session only.

 

[Woodybobs]

Smaller grids, longer wait times, and awarding multiple wins per race shouldn't be considered imo. I think only having weekly races was a poor decision by PD. Changes to the structure of Dailies could raise the number of entrants. Participation in dailies will hopefully improve after the current FIA season. I, and probably many others, have only done a couple since June.

 

[Shottah072]

Smaller grids, longer wait times, and awarding multiple wins per race shouldn't be considered imo. I think only having weekly races was a poor decision by PD. Changes to the structure of Dailies could raise the number of entrants. Participation in dailies will hopefully improve after the current FIA season. I, and probably many others, have only done a couple since June.

Of course no one knows why PD does what they do, its always a mystery with them.

But i suspect it could have been an attempt to get the high ranked players back to participate in those races. Most high ranked players seem to only race the FIA events now. If they will return to the Dailys that would instantly fix some issues already.

 

[kjeldsen]

Read all of my replies here. I've covered this more than once with examples of perfect matchmaking still seeing the faster in that given rank still winning.

The cod forums were always moaning about bad matchmaking over years and years of releases. Either bad team mates or people much better than them battering their oh so precious KD.

MMO games have always had complaints about how much time is required to achieve everything. The casual wants everything easy but will be here today gone tomorrow, where the hardcore will play regardless and enjoy the grind/challenge.

Read all of my replies here. I've covered this more than once with examples of perfect matchmaking still seeing the faster in that given rank still winning.

The cod forums were always moaning about bad matchmaking over years and years of releases. Either bad team mates or people much better than them battering their oh so precious KD.

MMO games have always had complaints about how much time is required to achieve everything. The casual wants everything easy but will be here today gone tomorrow, where the hardcore will play regardless and enjoy the grind/challenge.

And I think I have made it perfectly clear that winning is not the end goal. It's racing against a field of equally matched players.

Many players never see the finish line..

And how does pve mmo games come into this?

 

[Greycap]

But I payed for the game, don’t I deserve all ten platinum trophies?

Using the logic of many people, you should.

Well I'm not one of those people. And I'm not going to get popular with this opinion but the Platinum trophy, as I think of it, is reserved for those who really master the game. Those who spend the time to develop the skills - or have them naturally, that's always an option. It's not for Joe Average, not before Joe literally ups his game. It's definitely not for Joe well-below-Average right out of the box but many of them still throw a fit when not getting it. It's supposed to be hard, the ultimate achievement for player skilled enough to get it. I myself couldn't ever imagine getting the Platinum in some FPS shooter because it usually requires clearing the game in the hardest difficulty and I'm already having trouble with the easiest one. I'm just not good enough for it and it's actually completely OK for me.

To put things in perspective, back when I first wandered into the world of Gran Turismo, I sucked so badly that I couldn't even clear the licence tests. Clearing here means getting bronze. There are people around that skill level in DR D nowadays, I'm not blaming them, everyone has to start somewhere and they can work their way up from there but it doesn't come for free. For me it took a hell of a long time of training, patience, frustration and what not to get to grasps with how the game works. But now I'm ready to take that Platinum some day.

 

[Groundfish]

KJ
Can you define equal relative to this game? Is it the letter next to the name?
What time spread is in your opinion equal racing in a sixteen car grid?

 

[twitcher]

Using the logic of many people, you should.

Well I'm not one of those people. And I'm not going to get popular with this opinion but the Platinum trophy, as I think of it, is reserved for those who really master the game. Those who spend the time to develop the skills - or have them naturally, that's always an option. It's not for Joe Average, not before Joe literally ups his game. It's definitely not for Joe well-below-Average right out of the box but many of them still throw a fit when not getting it. It's supposed to be hard, the ultimate achievement for player skilled enough to get it. I myself couldn't ever imagine getting the Platinum in some FPS shooter because it usually requires clearing the game in the hardest difficulty and I'm already having trouble with the easiest one. I'm just not good enough for it and it's actually completely OK for me.

To put things in perspective, back when I first wandered into the world of Gran Turismo, I sucked so badly that I couldn't even clear the licence tests. Clearing here means getting bronze. There are people around that skill level in DR D nowadays, I'm not blaming them, everyone has to start somewhere and they can work their way up from there but it doesn't come for free. For me it took a hell of a long time of training, patience, frustration and what not to get to grasps with how the game works. But now I'm ready to take that Platinum some day.

Fully agree. To be clear, the post you quoted, I was being sarcastic.

Not meant as an insult to anyone reading this, more just an observation from reading the thread - it seems like the word “deserve” comes up a lot, in conjunction with the word “win”. We can get into a whole discussion about just those two words, but I think there’s something to the notion that it’s just the way of thinking of a perhaps younger or less experienced group of players.

For example, some of the people asking for better match making - what is there overall experience with online racing? Is GTS their first kick at the can, or have they been doing this for years, across multiple titles? What is their history of playing other, competitive games online (eg FPS, or MMO).

I think there’s 2 things at play here perhaps. One, I think there’s a group of people who have been playing Gran Turismo for a long time, but GTS is their first go at head to head racing against other humans - and they’re finding it overwhelming. This group of people is used to racing against the AI, or maybe their buddy in split screen. They’re being hit with the realization that in order to be competitive in online racing, there is an incredible wealth of knowledge, understanding, and skill which must be attained.

Second, I think we’re seeing the results of an entire generation being raised on video games which hand out “platinum trophies” like they’re candy. Today, for nearly every game that people buy, if they’re trophy hunting, before they even put the game in their machine, they’ve already looked up all the trophies, and the strategies on how to get them as fast and easily as possible. The vast majority of these trophies require nothing more than a time sink, or learning to exploit a certain game mechanic. And when these people collect all the trophies for a given game, they claim that they have “mastered the game”.

Well I’m sorry, if you’re only a D rank driver in GT Sport, you haven’t mastered anything, and you don’t deserve to have a platinum trophy which is supposed to indicate you have mastered one of the most difficult aspects of the game (and it happens to be a discipline, namely motor racing and race craft, which is one of the most complex forms of competition that humans partake in).

 

[Shottah072]

But it would make 0 diffrence, zero, if your grids were filled or not filled during off peak hours when this tends to occur at least in euro.

Its an impression thing, a look thing, a feeling thing.

Its also the looks and impressions but like i added later with a edit its also to keep the chance to gain or lose big points. In a full grid of equal players there will still be big gains and losses. In a 4 player grid of equal drivers there will only be small gains or losses.

But the important thing to notice is that during certain times sport mode DOES mismatch, and then that is bound to IRK the lower ranked, that is understandable. And a complaint that is worth listening to.

I do notice that, i acknowledged that in my first post in this thread and explained it irks me too being on the other end as a A+ driver. Only difference is small grids would irk me even more and is a solution i oppose.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

https://screenshots.firefox.com/o4ZhESjFlTIBihhp/www.kudosprime.com

are trophy hunters playing games

And I'm not going to get popular with this opinion but the Platinum trophy,

deserve to have a platinum trophy

And now we try to switch that unfair lobbies are about platinum trophies instead of unfair races for lower level players, sheesh what is next to try to offer excuses for a legitimate concern for many lower level racers.
The advertising for the game did not say it would be easy to get a platinum trophy but it did damn sure say the matching in sport mode races would be equal competition!

Did PD release anything saying if you are a C you will only race C for example?
Anyone know? Because the letter means nothing compared to the time.

Posted several times in this thread EQUAL COMPETITION, actually says it will use all facets of its new matchmaking system to provide fair races for all.
When a A+ racer is 3 seconds a lap faster than the fastest B racer on the grid and 13 seconds a lap faster than the lowest starting position D racer then how is that considered equal?

e·qual
ˈēkwəl/
adjective
adjective: equal

1. 1.
   being the same in quantity, size, degree, or value.
   "add equal amounts of water and flour"
   synonyms: identical, uniform, alike, like, the same, equivalent; More
   matching, even, comparable, similar, corresponding
   "lines of equal length"
   equivalent to, identical to, amounting to;
   proportionate to;
   commensurate with, on a par with
   
   antonyms: different, more than, less than
   • (of people) having the same status, rights, or opportunities.
   • uniform in application or effect; without discrimination on any grounds.
     "a dedicated campaigner for equal rights"
     synonyms: unbiased, impartial, nonpartisan, fair, just, equitable; More
     unprejudiced, nondiscriminatory, egalitarian;
     neutral, objective, disinterested
     "equal treatment before the law"
     antonyms: discriminatory
   • evenly or fairly balanced.
     "it was hardly an equal contest"
     synonyms: evenly matched, even, balanced, level; More
     on a par, on an equal footing;
     informalfifty-fifty, neck and neck
     "an equal contest"

noun
noun: equal; plural noun: equals

1. 1.
   a person or thing considered to be the same as another in status or quality.
   "we all treat each other as equals"

e.g: There's a lobby with only DR:B SR:S. The fast DR:B drivers will front the grid a vast majority of the time. The slow DR:B will spend a majority of the time at the back. Only 1 person in a grid of 20 can win. The slowest DR:B will never win in that lobby.

But this is all that the lower level players in this thread desire, is to race equal competition as the game advertised. A DR B, C or D racer on the grid with A+ OR A Racers is not equal competition.
EVEN IF THEY ARE GOING TO MIX GRIDS IT SHOULD NEVER BE MORE THAN 1 CLASS DIFFERENCE UP OR DOWN MAXIMUM. But D racers should never race higher than a C class racer period, even if the grid is not equal it should not be ridiculous as purring A+ or A racers against a D racer!
You guys are showing no common sense as to what actually should be defined competition and what should be defined talking about easy wins!

For example, some of the people asking for better match making - what is there overall experience with online racing? Is GTS their first kick at the can, or have they been doing this for years, across multiple titles? What is their history of playing other, competitive games online (eg FPS, or MMO)

And this makes absolutely no difference, there pace is what it is for whatever reason which is really none of your concern.

And it does make a difference. No risk of loosing big points to lower drivers. No chance to gain big points from higher drivers.

Some players do not care about points or advancing to even higher levels than where they may be either so not everyone cares about the "points in a lobby".

And I think I have made it perfectly clear that winning is not the end goal. It's racing against a field of equally matched players.

This says it all very accurately but many are either fine taking the easy wins or do not care about the game in the long term .
76% of GTS players NEVER RAN a sport mode race.
17% of GTS players ran LESS THAN 20 races
6% of GTS players ran OVER 20 races.

The players of GTS that ran either 0 or less than 20 races total 4,847,200 (that is million folks)
The players if GTS that did run at least 1 but less than 20 total 912.100
The players of GTS that have ran over 20 races total 304,500.

Pretty easy to see where the minority is at and it is not just the higher ranking players but ALL OF SPORT MODE.
Funny in a way that 2/3rds of the players that tried sport mode discarded playing it in fewer than 20 races.
Maybe if the races had of been matched better then some more of those 912,000 that ran less than 20 races may have stuck around and the numbers would be better.

And just how many of that 6% that has ran over 20 races is no longer playing sport mode as well? Those numbers do not include them!

EDIT; The latest figures on Kudo's for ACTIVE weekly sport mode players was 105,000. Draw your own conclusions.

But no we have people that are on such high horses that it is very apparent lower level racers deserve to finish towards the rear until their rankings are at the top.
After all you top guys worked for it and put in countless hours and studied other racers for hours to get there.

But if you owned a gaming studio and you needed to make money to stay in business and pay the bills when you look at those numbers would you keep investing in sport mode as the being the core of your next release?

I know if I owned the studio and wanted to make money and attract more players to buy and play my product those numbers tell me sport mode would be an irrelevant part of the next game if it was included at all.

So you guys may want to enjoy sport mode while you can because looking at those numbers it will not be here long. Would have been much better trying to figure out ways to keep the new lower ranked guys involved as then the number of people racing in sport mode would not be such a joke.

With the horrid matching and the broken penalty system if they shut it down today I really could care less. But I am just one of those casual guys playing a game that does not care about advancing level or points so the game according to you guys is not for me anyway!

Shame really because the game had so much potential but really blew it in my opinion, but I know you guys at the top think it is fine as is, again look at those numbers then ho look in the mirror and ask that guy there who do you think you are fooling!

According to Kudo's

 

[cleanLX]

So, I said I was out, but I have followed along and read every post.
I've again given a lot of though to this.

Matchmaking is where this started, and it somehow got distorted into wins and trophies.
So, lets go down that road.
First off, I'm not sure what the difference is between Dr.A+ and Dr.S... so, I'll assume Dr.A+ is the fast guys, and Dr.S is some special recognition bestowed by PD upon a select group of players, therefor I will ignore Dr.S for this discussion.
So, where I say Dr.A+, substitute "the fastest of the fast".

Trophies are mantle ornaments to memorialize achievement, and, I agree not everyone deserves a trophy. I've lived it in real life, and I fully support it.
Currently trophies are directly tied to matchmaking... Sr tanking to get favorable grids as a "biased" example.

So.
Lets say... only the best of the best can earn the trophies.
I'm all for that, that is real.
So, only A+ drivers can attain trophies. I'm good with that, getting a pole/win at level Dr.ABCDE is a personal achievement, one to be proud of based on your current ranking and fair competition... and should be a stat that is tracked... however to get a trophy, advance your skill-set to A+ and achieve the same racing success.
Only wins accounted for towards attaining the trophy will be accumulated in grids of all Dr.A+ driver rankings. Put a single ABCDE driver in the field and the win is not valid as a count to the wins/poles trophy.
But wait, I want my trophy, so, only place me with A+, don't stick a Dr.ABCDE in my race and ruin my opportunity to notch a win count towards the precious trophy.
OK.
Grids will vary between 2 and 20 Dr.A+ racers depending on players online.
Wait, that's crazy, I can game that system and race at 2am against sleep-deprived/inebriated players.
OK.
Only wins against full grids of Dr.A+ drivers wherein fields of ~10 participants or greater will count towards the trophy.
Good.
So, trophies is now settled, only the fastest can attain them and only when racing a set quantity (or greater quantity) of those fastest.
Good... Done... fair real world memorialize-ation of the fastest of the fast.

Now...
Matchmaking.
Since the almighty trophy has been removed from the discussion...

What to do about matchmaking?
Matchmaking based on Dr?
AKA... no more A+ vs D.

wait a minute... isn't this where we started?

Enjoy.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

So that’s you’re own personal definition of what track limits should be. It’s not wrong, not at all - it’s just your interpretation.

In real series like F1, drivers are allowed to touch, even nearly fully cross the white line, with the inside wheels. For them, “in bounds” is having any portion of the two inside tires touching the white line. It gets a little weird from one corner to the next, as tire deflection comes into play, meaning that the track limits change by a few millemeters to few centimetres. And like you, they’re flying blind, basically guessing at the final few millemeters whether or not they’re in or out. This is why at a corner like Club at Silverstone, they’ve added a sausage curb that runs parallel to the circuit, so drivers have a physical object to feel with the outside wheels.

On the other end of the spectrum, you can look at a specific location in a different series - namely the pit exit at Indycar’s Long Beach GP. Here, drivers must not cross the pit exit line when merging back into traffic, and drivers on the racing line cannot move to drivers right into the pit exit.

- the drivers on the racing circuit get a zero tolerance policy for even touching the blue pit exit line. It is treated like a wall, you cannot cross it with any part of the car. (See Sebastian Bourdais “triple overtake” from the 2018 race, which he had to redress, because he crossed the pit exit line).
- the drivers on pit exit, merging into traffic, follow a different set of guidelines. They are not allowed to cross the line at all, until they get to the very end of the line, where they are allowed to cut across the painted blue line, but with only half the car. To enforce the line at this specific spot, the cars are fitted with a transponder (placed in center of the car), and a corresponding transponder is embedded in the road surface at the end of the line. This way, there is no guess work for the officials, out is out, and there’s no argument. This system was adapted after the, iirc 2015 race, where Simon Pageneut complete a move for the race lead while exiting the pit lane, and cutting across the end of the pit exit.

So, there you have 3 instances where, in real life, painted lines are enforced in different ways. It depends on the series, the cars, and the specific line in question.

My point is, in the virtual realm, why not do away with painted lines in seas of asphalt, and use either walls, or low grip surfaces (grass, gravel) to define track limits. It will eliminate 99% of the issues with track limits.



I think the game calculates whether or not you actually gain time by going off the circuit, not just IF you go off the circuit.

I’ve had lots of times where I’ve gone off, kept my foot in, and got a penalty. Next lap, same off, a small lift, no penalty.

F1 does this. They have computers running, calculating micro sectors. If a driver goes 4 wheels off the circuit, the officials look at their computers to see if actual time was gained in the corner. If not, no penalty or warning is issued. My issue with this method is that while yes it prevents people from setting faster lap times by going off the circuit, it does not punish mistakes (paved runoff can be used to save a situation that would be either detrimental or catastrophic to a lap/race, regardless if you actually gain time or not by going off the circuit).

Walls have other problems of course, as well as grass or dirt next to the track, although Big Willow and Brand's keep most people within the track limits or else My main problem is the guess work involved which comes from penalties only being issued when you gain time. As you learn the track and get faster you suddenly start picking up track penalties where previously you would be ok. The good thing about grass and walls is that they are clearly visible for all the see, no matter what speed you go, keep off.

Perhaps make it like the Nordschleife license test in GT4, 4 wheels off track, start over / reset back to before the corner

GTS is: do not cross this line at that speed, we just won't tell you where the line is. go race! Oh, don't worry about penalties, simply slow down a bit in front of another car to get rid of them, easy! Block the pit entrance while serving the penalties or stop in front of the finish, just like real racing

People having different interpretations of track limits causes incidents. Making them clear would be one step to cleaner racing. Except making them clear with walls is not working all that well... Bus stop chicane / Tokyo / Blue moon / Panorama all death traps requiring a lot of ghosting to keep the race going.

Anyway since it's a video game, how hard can it be to have a driving aid that adds transparent walls to the track to show the actual track limits the game uses. Why so secretive!