SRT Tomahawk X VGT Super Lap: Nürburgring Nordschleife

[Saidur_Ali]

It has silly amounts of feedback on the T500 - you go over a bump, the wheel tugs hard one way, you attempt to hold it, and end up nosing in to the barrier 0.26 secs later. IMHO the steering response from the wheel is just not fast enough for a car this skittish on the ring. DS3 obviously allows you to be "faster" with your responses.

It's now been well over a year since I last used the controller properly in GT, so I might well be slower with it though. If I didn't hate driving the X so much I might try it

Think wheel will be way faster in that regard. Maybe your response is not quick enough rather than the wheel .

 

[MatskiMonk]

Think wheel will be way faster in that regard. Maybe your response is not quick enough rather than the wheel .

I'll freely admit I'm not the greatest with a wheel but from a purely technical point of view, I can twitch my thumb 10mm either way aganst milli-Newtons of resistance several times faster than I can rotate both my hands and forearms against the torque force of the T500RS. Also taking into the account that the DS3 inputs are smoothed out proportionally to speed it makes it much harder to "over compensate" with a DS3. Smooth application of the throttle is much easier with a wheel set-up, I'll give you that.

 

[yikadaemu]

The only way I could drive this thing was to permanently enable DRS. At least then it behaved somewhat like a motor car. For some reason the DRS makes a weird hissing sound even when you're parked. Cruised round for a bronze then off to the stockyard with it.

I think this VGT thing is a wasted opportunity, with the manufacturers all trying to outdo each other with increasingly ridiculous vehicles that, if (big if) they could ever be translated in to reality, would be too dangerous to actually drive. By all means give us a glimpse of the future but how about a small electric sports car or a high performance hybrid saloon. Something that actually represents the future of motoring rather than someone's daft fantasy. I have no ambition to be a fighter pilot, especially if I am expected to keep the aircraft on the ground and steer it round the Nordschleife.
On the other hand they're free and some people enjoy the challenge so good luck to them. We haters aren't forced to drive them. My main complaint is they are taking up resources which could be used to give us some new real, or at least realistic, cars.

Amen. Was really kind of hoping that SRT would pull from their muscle car past and come up with something with more personality. This one? Mostly JAFRC. just another ----- race car

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I'll freely admit I'm not the greatest with a wheel but from a purely technical point of view, I can twitch my thumb 10mm either way aganst milli-Newtons of resistance several times faster than I can rotate both my hands and forearms against the torque force of the T500RS. Also taking into the account that the DS3 inputs are smoothed out proportionally to speed it makes it much harder to "over compensate" with a DS3. Smooth application of the throttle is much easier with a wheel set-up, I'll give you that.

All the top times are being done on a wheel for a reason. The way the steering works on GT6 means you still will have too slow steering on DS3 especially change of direction. Speed sensitivity should help but don't think it allows you to use all the grip of the car. IMO need much less accuracy with a wheel compared to DS3 as the speed and ability to use grip of car makes it easier to get out of tricky situations.

Anyway I wonder if it is possible for someone to do a time under 3 minutes with this car by the end of the event.

 

[Quakebass]

I now finally have enough time and money to fix up my melted PS3 and grab a copy of GT6, it's been 1.5-2 years since I've had a working system of any sort, or really played any sort of racing game...

I wanna see how this goes...

 

[Kryption]

I got 7:32, I went as fast as my stock cars do.

 

[j4mmin42]

100% agree. I'm just thinking out loud for those that still have both skills. I think the gap is 30+ seconds on this challenge. This car is so hard to control with a DS3, and the race is so long, it must be such a gap.

I'm sure you already know this- but the stats on the leaderboard include the controller type.

 

[UltimateLurker]

I'm sure you already know this- but the stats on the leaderboard include the controller type.

I haven't checked it, but imagine it's the same story as the rest of the leaders...99.999% wheel. Normally you'll find 1 or 2 aliens in the top 100, you know, the kind that use the d-pad. I think Whoosiergirl does this for fun every once in a while .

 

[UltimateLurker]

It has silly amounts of feedback on the T500 - you go over a bump, the wheel tugs hard one way, you attempt to hold it, and end up nosing in to the barrier 0.26 secs later. IMHO the steering response from the wheel is just not fast enough for a car this skittish on the ring. DS3 obviously allows you to be "faster" with your responses.

It's now been well over a year since I last used the controller properly in GT, so I might well be slower with it though. If I didn't hate driving the X so much I might try it

The wheel certainly has its issues, but it allows so much more refined inputs, which translates to much faster times. Controllers with cars like this are really just off/on buttons.

 

[MatskiMonk]

The wheel certainly has its issues, but it allows so much more refined inputs, which translates to much faster times. Controllers with cars like this are really just off/on buttons.

I've always said that the refinement of the throttle input is where a wheel/pedal combo scores most highly. I'm still not convinced about the steering though, in a car like this that can be facing the wrong way at 200mph in the blink of an eye I don't feel that there is much time for refinement - maybe I just need to set FFB to zero.

 

[Jbaffoh]

Last Thursday I did 8 million restarts and red laps before finally doing a clean 4:43. Then I spent several days on a racing sailboat where things happen fast, but at a snail's pace compared to this seasonal. Got into a different kind of groove.

So today I got behind the wheel for the first time since my 4:43 to complete the seasonal on my alternate account. The car was twitchier than I remembered, and I reset twice within 10 seconds of starting. But then it came back to me. I completed my third attempt in 5:03, and my fourth in 4:42. Both were very conservative runs.

Suddenly it seems easier to complete clean laps!

 

[Whalengt]

I've always said that the refinement of the throttle input is where a wheel/pedal combo scores most highly. I'm still not convinced about the steering though, in a car like this that can be facing the wrong way at 200mph in the blink of an eye I don't feel that there is much time for refinement - maybe I just need to set FFB to zero.

For me I find my gas pedal seems to want to be on or off, maybe it's the reaction time is not there but its seems I either am foot to the floor or off throttle. Now the brakes, wow. Could be I need new actuators for my pedals as they have a lot of miles on them. I have FFB set to 1 and now I find it's nothing at all to control. My problems tends to be overdriving on the wrong section. I have been on a 3:2*.*** lap so many times and just went in to the last two turns too fast.

 

[MatskiMonk]

For me I find my gas pedal seems to want to be on or off, maybe it's the reaction time is not there but its seems I either am foot to the floor or off throttle. Now the brakes, wow. Could be I need new actuators for my pedals as they have a lot of miles on them. I have FFB set to 1 and now I find it's nothing at all to control. My problems tends to be overdriving on the wrong section. I have been on a 3:2*.*** lap so many times and just went in to the last two turns too fast.

I've yet to set a blue time. Closest to the seasonal time I got was a 5:08 after 5 laps straight (all red), the rest was restart after restart for an hour or so, rarely getting more than 1 min in. I bought all the cars before 1.2 maintenance was over because I knew this would be the case. I don't like adjusting the wheel settings, I prefer a standard baseline for all cars, just as I prefer to keep the aids configuration the same for every car (ABS1, rest off). For the same reason I don't want to switch to the DS3.

As I've said elsewhere, I really think SRT did a great job with the effort they put into this, I just hate the output.

 

[Whalengt]

I've yet to set a blue time. Closest to the seasonal time I got was a 5:08 after 5 laps straight (all red), the rest was restart after restart for an hour or so, rarely getting more than 1 min in. I bought all the cars before 1.2 maintenance was over because I knew this would be the case. I don't like adjusting the wheel settings, I prefer a standard baseline for all cars, just as I prefer to keep the aids configuration the same for every car (ABS1, rest off). For the same reason I don't want to switch to the DS3.

As I've said elsewhere, I really think SRT did a great job with the effort they put into this, I just hate the output.

How well do you know that track? Is any of the above due to trying to learn the track and the car? With tc at 1 or off and abs1 you should easily be able to do say a 6 minute run and move up from there. Find a comfortable hand grip and remember faster = more downforce. I can't say it enough that I have my G25 set to 240 degrees rather than the 900. It's not as difficult as it looks. pic a good pace and go for it. Good luck

 

[MatskiMonk]

How well do you know that track? Is any of the above due to trying to learn the track and the car? With tc at 1 or off and abs1 you should easily be able to do say a 6 minute run and move up from there. Find a comfortable hand grip and remember faster = more downforce. I can't say it enough that I have my G25 set to 240 degrees rather than the 900. It's not as difficult as it looks. pic a good pace and go for it. Good luck

Trust me, I'm familiar with the track Was never sure how to adjust the wheel rotation on the T500RS, but like I say, I like keeping all the baseline settings the same. My 5:08 included 2 spins, so I know with a clean lap I'm well in, but I'm only getting that close to a 5 because I'm pushing as hard as I can, and I'm spinning because I'm pushing that hard.

Not too bothered about it. I've got the cars already, I just don't like the assumption that a wheel makes you faster, it's never really been the case for me.

 

[RobertM525]

I haven't checked it, but imagine it's the same story as the rest of the leaders...99.999% wheel. Normally you'll find 1 or 2 aliens in the top 100, you know, the kind that use the d-pad. I think Whoosiergirl does this for fun every once in a while .

Well, there's a selection bias there, too. While it's true that the wheel is (in almost all cases) a superior input device, on the flip side, the most dedicated players are going to be more apt to buy a wheel. So both are undoubtedly playing a role in the dominance of wheel users on the leaderboard.

Meanwhile, I use a wheel (G27) and I'm happy when I break the top 10,000.

It has silly amounts of feedback on the T500 - you go over a bump, the wheel tugs hard one way, you attempt to hold it, and end up nosing in to the barrier 0.26 secs later.

That sounds more like a sensitivity issue than a torque one. As I said earlier in this thread, I find if the wheel torque is too low, it becomes too light and too hard to control. A heavier wheel is actually a benefit to a car with as much steering response as this.

That said, I'm running a sensitivity of 5 and a torque of 7 (I think—maybe I have that backwards), and my G27 doesn't feel unbearable on this event. Much better than Round 4 of GT Academy did. I mean, granted, it still sounds like the wheel's going to break itself, but I'm trusting Logitech's engineers on this and hoping it can't do that.

On a related note, I actually find this thing to be easier to drive than the X2014 Fan Car. Its steering is insane but less insane than the X2014. Both have so little understeer that they're hard to drive, but I feel like the X2014 is twitchier. (And the X2011 was worse than that.)

 

[Whalengt]

I agree with RobertM525 in that this car is easier to drive over the redbull. I usually have FFB all the way up as I like as much feel as possible but due to a recent outbreak of arthritis in my body my hands can't take the chatter that high FFB setting put through them so My choice for this car is a 1.

As far as which is better the DS3 or a wheel all I can say is every car I've driven has a wheel so if you truly want the full effect of a Racing Car Sim then a wheel is a must. Every person I know that takes their racing seriously has a wheel system of some sort but I'm an older guy and to most of my friends a wheel is pocket change. I've had wheels since the early 90's and of course my first wheel found me taking off seconds or minutes off my times posted using a standard game controller. I know there are some faster with the DS3 than I can be with the wheel.

My 9 year old grandson prefers his wheel but usually doesn't bother pulling out the cockpit rig I made him and just uses the DS3. The kids grew up using the DS3 style controller so for them it's second nature as a wheel is to my generation.

As far as my questions of advice I was just trying to help people hit their target. If you don't want to make adjustments for a car well all I can say is knock yourself out. For me. I wanted to set the fastest time I could possibly do. I'm very happy with my 3:37.284 but I know I can get into the 3:20's and hope to do it tomorrow.

 

[j4mmin42]

Well, there's a selection bias there, too. While it's true that the wheel is (in almost all cases) a superior input device, on the flip side, the most dedicated players are going to be more apt to buy a wheel. So both are undoubtedly playing a role in the dominance of wheel users on the leaderboard.

Meanwhile, I use a wheel (G27) and I'm happy when I break the top 10,000.


That sounds more like a sensitivity issue than a torque one. As I said earlier in this thread, I find if the wheel torque is too low, it becomes too light and too hard to control. A heavier wheel is actually a benefit to a car with as much steering response as this.

That said, I'm running a sensitivity of 5 and a torque of 7 (I think—maybe I have that backwards), and my G27 doesn't feel unbearable on this event. Much better than Round 4 of GT Academy did. I mean, granted, it still sounds like the wheel's going to break itself, but I'm trusting Logitech's engineers on this and hoping it can't do that.

On a related note, I actually find this thing to be easier to drive than the X2014 Fan Car. Its steering is insane but less insane than the X2014. Both have so little understeer that they're hard to drive, but I feel like the X2014 is twitchier. (And the X2011 was worse than that.)

I started really enjoying the X cars after spending an hour plus on this event. I'm a DS3 user, really only been playing for 2 months now so not sure if I'm going to get a wheel or not- But I'm leaning towards getting one. Driving these cars on a DS3 is a completely different skillset than learning to drive "regular" cars in GT games. Anyway, I had the most fun in the Red Bull challenges when I got to the Vettel events at the very end. It's the sense of accomplishment you get, whether you're talking about this event or the Vettel events, or even X2011 at goodwood- it's a great feeling.

If I had started racing using a wheel back in GT1, 2, 3, etc...then I would definitely be using a wheel, lol- but the dualshock has never let me down, until this event + contest...

 

[Pseudopod]

I have to ask to see if it's just me, but...

Does anyone else feel actual fear going down the longest straight with this car?

I do.

 

[GTRacer22]

I have to ask to see if it's just me, but...

Does anyone else feel actual fear going down the longest straight with this car?

I do.

It really isn't that bad. I've gone flat out with DRS the whole way down it.

 

[UltimateLurker]

Well, there's a selection bias there, too. While it's true that the wheel is (in almost all cases) a superior input device, on the flip side, the most dedicated players are going to be more apt to buy a wheel. So both are undoubtedly playing a role in the dominance of wheel users on the leaderboard.

Agreed. The reason I've never purchased a wheel is because the feel is terrible compared to a real car, and until that changes I won't bother. I would love to be able to sort by DS3 or wheel user, as I don't compare my times to wheel users.

 

[Jbaffoh]

Agreed. The reason I've never purchased a wheel is because the feel is terrible compared to a real car, and until that changes I won't bother. I would love to be able to sort by DS3 or wheel user, as I don't compare my times to wheel users.

The feel of my G27 is not the same as a real car, but it's much closer to that than a DS3!!!

This is a game! The cockpit views are NOTHING like real life! The tuning doesn't behave like the real world! I could go on forever.

But the reason you prefer the completely artificial DS3 is because the wheel isn't real enough???

That's crazy.

 

[RobertM525]

Does anyone else feel actual fear going down the longest straight with this car?

I'm more nervous about the highspeed "back" of the course, though the end of the final straight on the Nordschleife always sucks. I never know when to brake and how much to brake so I just end up easing it into the kink at the end, which kills my lap times. But, honestly, every time it's just the last over-cautious screw up in a lap full of them, so whatever.

Agreed. The reason I've never purchased a wheel is because the feel is terrible compared to a real car, and until that changes I won't bother. I would love to be able to sort by DS3 or wheel user, as I don't compare my times to wheel users.

Before I had a wheel, I felt the same way. I was always curious what the top controller times were.

But as far as wheels go... I drive an '02 Toyota Camry in real life and I've never driven on a racetrack, so the G27 feels pretty good to me. (Though, to be fair, I had a '98 Integra GS-R for six years before the Camry, so I'm aware of what good steering feel is. Well, that and my dad's '80 Porsche 911 SC, which didn't even have power steering, so it was very... connected.)

 

[Pseudopod]

It's not really the fear of getting an invalid lap time, but because it is just so insanely fast. it kind of makes me feel like I am falling from a really tall building. Not that I have tried falling from a really tall building. I am also sitting pretty close to my TV.

 

[Stotty]

I've always said that the refinement of the throttle input is where a wheel/pedal combo scores most highly. I'm still not convinced about the steering though, in a car like this that can be facing the wrong way at 200mph in the blink of an eye I don't feel that there is much time for refinement - maybe I just need to set FFB to zero.

I tried this one with the DS3 and for me, it was a complete nightmare (though I'm not so good on a DS3 nowadays!).

The car is so fast and has so much front end grip that you need to be very precise with how much lock you apply at turn in or you over steer in to the corner. A wheel makes this much, much easier.

And the more you over steer, the harder it is to get the power down.

The X has almost perfect traction once you're in 3rd gear, so the throttle pretty much becomes an on/off switch.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I tried this one with the DS3 and for me, it was a complete nightmare (though I'm not so good on a DS3 nowadays!).

The car is so fast and has so much front end grip that you need to be very precise with how much lock you apply at turn in or you over steer in to the corner. A wheel makes this much, much easier.

And the more you over steer, the harder it is to get the power down.

The X has almost perfect traction once you're in 3rd gear, so the throttle pretty much becomes an on/off switch.

I heavily short shift from 1st to 3rd, then let it redline for 4th and beyond. Certainly one of the problems I have is turning in too soon, as you say, the front end grip is excellent, It's taking some adjustment to remember that even at 200mph, it's barely going to understeer, consequently I end up apexing to soon (at best), taking too much curb (I've rolled the X multiple times on one lap), or most commonly drop a back wheel off the track, and spin, or try and adjust my line, and spin - all of which is compounded by the width of the car! It's just a really messy, nasty driving experience for me - nothing smooth or refined about it. I've always been rubbish with the Red Bull X's too, for similar reasons.

Tonight I'm going to take the 5 lap run data and stick it into MoTeC, see what my eclectic time was. I'm guessing something like a 4:40. But I don't think I'll bother with the superlap anymore.

I've also tested the X at Twin Ring Motegi, a smooth, wide track with smooth curbs and nice straight straights... the X makes MUCH more sense there

 

[djslofstra]

I just held it in 7th gear and kept my finger onto the nitrous button to disable that nervous active aero system. I cruised around the ring, obtained a bronze medal and that hidious car and just called it a day.

 

[Stotty]

I heavily short shift from 1st to 3rd, then let it redline for 4th and beyond. Certainly one of the problems I have is turning in too soon, as you say, the front end grip is excellent, It's taking some adjustment to remember that even at 200mph, it's barely going to understeer, consequently I end up apexing to soon (at best), taking too much curb (I've rolled the X multiple times on one lap), or most commonly drop a back wheel off the track, and spin, or try and adjust my line, and spin - all of which is compounded by the width of the car! It's just a really messy, nasty driving experience for me - nothing smooth or refined about it. I've always been rubbish with the Red Bull X's too, for similar reasons.

You shouldn't need 1st gear - I only used 2nd 4 times in a lap. 3rd would have been fine to get the gold time, but 2nd helps control the speed better. I didn't take too much notice of the red line (primarily because I was watching the track) - but this thing is sooo fast you can short shift without any significant loss of time/speed.

I've only run this to get gold, but for me the important things were;

1. Turn in early, but smoothly - 1st steering input needs to be small and smooth. If you turn in hard and late you'll unsettle the car, so take an early apex, let the car coast on the inside of the corner, then hammer it on the exit

2. Get all your braking done before you turn in - the car will not turn on the brakes, so you can't trail brake. On a couple of occasions I was miles past the turn in point, still on the brakes, thinking I was going to understeer off... released the brakes and the car immediately turned in and made the corner

3. Avoid the kerbs if possible - the car is too stiff to ride them. If you do catch a kerb, do not try and get on the power or the car will shoot off in any direction it sees fit.

I also used AS strong, left the traction control on 5 and didn't use the DRS.

 

[MatskiMonk]

You shouldn't need 1st gear - I only used 2nd 4 times in a lap. 3rd would have been fine to get the gold time, but 2nd helps control the speed better. I didn't take too much notice of the red line (primarily because I was watching the track) - but this thing is sooo fast you can short shift without any significant loss of time/speed.

I've only run this to get gold, but for me the important things were;

1. Turn in early, but smoothly - 1st steering input needs to be small and smooth. If you turn in hard and late you'll unsettle the car, so take an early apex, let the car coast on the inside of the corner, then hammer it on the exit

2. Get all your braking done before you turn in - the car will not turn on the brakes, so you can't trail brake. On a couple of occasions I was miles past the turn in point, still on the brakes, thinking I was going to understeer off... released the brakes and the car immediately turned in and made the corner

3. Avoid the kerbs if possible - the car is too stiff to ride them. If you do catch a kerb, do not try and get on the power or the car will shoot off in any direction it sees fit.

I also used AS strong, left the traction control on 5 and didn't use the DRS.

That'd probably do the job.... but it's not how I roll

 

[Stotty]

That'd probably do the job.... but it's not how I roll

These sorts of cars really aren't my thing, so I left them on to make the process of getting gold as easy as possible

In the end, I don't think they are really necessary though - the car has perfect traction in 3rd gear and above, and is very stable as long as you stay off the kerbs.