Standard cars ARE in GT6. (100% confirmed)

[counter345]

I'm thinking: there was a Subaru Impreza that wasn't included in Gran Turismo 5 because it wasn't premium outright, but sort of "half-premium". I'm wondering if a lot of standards will have this treatment.

 

[JacoJa]

I'm thinking: there was a Subaru Impreza that wasn't included in Gran Turismo 5 because it wasn't premium outright, but sort of "half-premium". I'm wondering if a lot of standards will have this treatment.

That was full premium though. Just at the time of GTHD, there was no interior camera view. You could see they completely modelled the car properly, inside and out.

I hope it re-appears in GT6 though. 👍

 

[Samus]

I'm thinking: there was a Subaru Impreza that wasn't included in Gran Turismo 5 because it wasn't premium outright, but sort of "half-premium". I'm wondering if a lot of standards will have this treatment.

It's probably the most plausible explanation. When any developer creates a model they create it to a set Level Of Detail, or LOD. If we give the GT5 premium models in photomode the label LODA and the in game model LODB it's likely they build the cars to LODA first (Which takes the longest, naturally) and then work out where to lose triangles/polys to get down to LODB and further lower levels for cars in the distance.

The project CARS devs did that for most cars, they built the highest quality models first (They call them LODX) and then work down to the lower poly levels later (LODA, B etc) however recently they started building LODA first, then adding more detail/polys to create a LODX model later.

In non jargon talk then yes, it's very possible they've modeled certain cars to a lower level of detail than the premium cars we see in GT5 photomode or gameplay, therefore making them quicker. Then in future they will build them up to a higher LOD.

 

[nfdids]

That was full premium though. Just at the time of GTHD, there was no interior camera view. You could see they completely modelled the car properly, inside and out.

I hope it re-appears in GT6 though. 👍

Removing that subaru was one the most idiotic choices that PD has done.

 

[shirakawaa]

In non jargon talk then yes, it's very possible they've modeled certain cars to a lower level of detail than the premium cars we see in GT5 photomode or gameplay, therefore making them quicker. Then in future they will build them up to a higher LOD.

It's much easier to scale down 3d models to lower LODs than scaling them up. Actually I don't think the opposite would make much sense anymore. It would almost mean remaking the models from scratch as adding unplanned detail can easily break the polygon flow (mesh topology) and Yamauchi during the Silverstone event was boasting how their 3D car models are clean.

From what I gather, cars made for GT5/6 and beyond are modeled with traditional 3DCG techniques (opposed to the old low poly methods, along with the old pixel-painted textures and shading), that is, high poly, detailed subdivision surface "base" model first, which is then scaled down/decimated as needed for "low-poly" in-game use.

If they have to cut corners, that has to be in the interior detail. Interiors can easily take 2-3 times the amount of time it takes to model the exterior, if not more. They could offer simple "placeholder" interior views adequate enough for the cockpit view, without having to model every invisible bolt and stich. That would save major modeling time.

 

[Vede89]

i wish they upgrade at least a few car like the veyron to premium and why for exemple the ford gt 06 is premium but not the 05 why not just put the same model and interior of premium to the 05 is the same car anyways and same with the ford gt LMS black to the white one and only change the skin. They cant do this for a few car ??

sorry for my bad english

 

[Samus]

It's much easier to scale down 3d models to lower LODs than scaling them up. Actually I don't think the opposite would make much sense anymore. It would almost mean remaking the models from scratch as adding unplanned detail can easily break the polygon flow (mesh topology) and Yamauchi during the Silverstone event was boasting how their 3D car models are clean.

From what I gather, cars made for GT5/6 and beyond are modeled with traditional 3DCG techniques (opposed to the old low poly methods, along with the old pixel-painted textures and shading), that is, high poly, detailed subdivision surface "base" model first, which is then scaled down/decimated as needed for "low-poly" in-game use.

If they have to cut corners, that has to be in the interior detail. Interiors can easily take 2-3 times the amount of time it takes to model the exterior, if not more. They could offer simple "placeholder" interior views adequate enough for the cockpit view, without having to model every invisible bolt and stich. That would save major modeling time.

I have to be honest I don't know a great detail about modelling and poly work but I was just going by what the pCARS devs have said and done. I need to check but I'm sure they said it was either just as efficient or more efficient for them to model a LODA car and then scale it to LODX. They're doing it right now with the Ford Focus I believe.

You're right on the interiors though, clearly at the moment PD spend a huge amount of time on them, probably too much. Again referencing pCARS a dev said some time ago they took 3 man months to model a complete car and whilst their interiors might not be as detailed (Naturally for some, as they're mainly race cars) they do model under the hood a lot more detail. The figure for PD is 6 man months although that is very old and I'd hope they're much closer to the 3 MM that SMS claim to take on theirs.

 

[analog]

(Naturally for some, as they're mainly race cars)

I think race car interiors are even more difficult to model and need much more detail since there are many more exposed parts, visible wiring and different materials/textures compared to roadcars where a lot is obviously covered and where they can even do shortcuts (visible pedals for example or far less detail) without anyone even noticing.

 

[shadynader]

I used to model in 3dsmax a lot, mainly for models in the source engine when it was quite new (2003/4-2007) The main problems with scaling up models I found back then was with the UV's. Once you start adding verts you run into problems with your UV's. It was much easier back then to scale back rather than scale up without having to modify or completely redo your UV's. Having been out of the loop for so long now and with the CG world moving pretty quickly I would not like to hazard a guess how easy or difficult this is nowadays.

When I did stop modelling adaptive tessellation was still pretty new on the scene and looked very promising although I had concerns about how it deals with the edgeloops/edges of the UV's. Also what I am wondering is how they have done this on PS3? The HW does not allow for it so it must be software driven in realtime which would be pretty impressive to say the least given everything else that is pushing through the pipeline.

Using this technique though eliminates the need for polygonal LOD's and can be applied to standards so I am eager to see the results of that. I don't think they will reach the level of premiums by any means but I feel they will have improved significantly to what we have now. Time will tell.

 

[JacoJa]

Removing that subaru was one the most idiotic choices that PD has done.

I wonder why they did it? It still completely baffles me. Surely it wasn't a licensing issue, because the same car is in GT5 as a standard. I haven't got a clue...

I should have asked that question for Jordans' Q&A yesterday.

 

[Dmarc_Atl]

How long did GT5 take to come out? Around 5 1/2 years after the release of GT4, and how many premiums did we get? Around 220.

Now before you say "Oh but they had to develop the game too bla bla" consider that the Artists do the modeling, they dont do the physics or the UI or anything else, they are Artists. So if in over 5 years they only managed 220 Premiums, how on earth do you think they are going to manage 1000 premiums in only 3 years? The answer is they are obviously not going to.

That is assuming 1. They have the same amount workers as they did during gt5 development, and 2.That those modelers dont know how to program.None of which we will ever be sure of. So again... its not far fetched.I also dont know where the extra 200 or so cars come from to make it 1000 standards
Honestly after that post jordan made I dont think they all will be premium cars, however I just dont see how a team of professional modelers cant model close to 800 cars in three years.

Well, 100 cars in three years would be 1 car every 1.5 weeks roughly. Perhaps it's possible to make one or two cars on such a tight schedule, but a hundred in a row? Given that they have to be accurate in all measurements, have all the right textures, lights, animations, optional aero kits and a (basic) damage model.

And when the model is done they also need to add sounds and performance data, upgrades and so on.

So making the actual model is just one step on the road towards making it functional in the game.

Haha I didnt say 100 in 3 years I said 1 year.I was just rounding off.With my knowledge and average time it takes to model a car it would be about 75 cars in a year for me.These guys have been doing it for years so I dont see why they cant push out 100 per modeler each year.
Also if you take a look at the screens.

You can see it takes no time to actually model a car ( I actually thought they make each part instead making a mesh object). Using reference pictures getting a car measurements takes no time at all, the same with "textures, lights, animations, optional aero kits". An experienced modeler can get that done fast and with their resources, they can get it dont within a week.They use real time deformation for damage so again thats not much of a time consumption in the creation process.
Any way I know most of you are just trying not to get your hopes but know that it is possible to model that amount of cars in that amount of time.Ive read articles where some modelers have to make much more and harder models in a certain time frame.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

I was watching a GT5 stream and the guy said that standard cars will still be in GT6. Don't quote me I could be wrong. Valdudes said it.

 

[mini28]

POSSIBILITIES

Firstly, I think given that the guys at PD have 3 more years experience in making a GT game for the PS3, that we can afford to be slightly optimistic about the amount of cars they have churned out to be premium, and Jordan mentioned that it's mostly good news on this front. But here are the possible scenarios:

-Roughly 500-600 premiums in game, the rest standard but re detailed to get rid of pixelation/jaggies

-Semi-premium? a cockpit thrown together consisting of a steering wheel, a dash, and some dials.

-Rolling DLC to update the car list to premiums throughout the game's life span.

Doubt we will see 1200 premium cars at launch. Standards are going to be in the game for sure.

 

[Rumface]

I see no reason why all the Standards shouldn't be be gone by GT6. Then again the same arguments prove they will be out in numbers....

In an Ideal world there would be at least some form of graphical overhaul be it premium flavoured cars without an interior. If you've already got a textured / measured reference model in low polygons no doubt you're almost halving your production time.

I'd be happy with a game containing 200 "unique" marques. Then press the D-Pad left and right for '86, '92, '03 and '11 and up and down to select between the 1.2, 1.6 and 2.0 litre sport.

 

[Marill]

I wish they were all premium, but that's probably not gonna be possible, so if there are Standard cars, at least they could look better than in GT5 and have the same features as Premiums (in fact, they could even remove the (P) or (S) marking on the cars).

 

[Organ-Donor]

Standards in their second and final installment on PS3 is unacceptable. I use standards on GT5 but it's getting ridiculous to use PS2 cars while PS4 will be out at about the same time as this game. They have had enough funding and time.

 

[Rob-F1-Fan]

Pretty obvious we will have alot of standards in the game but maybe less.
What i would like to know is will GT6 begin with all GT5 tracks including the DLC? Or just the base game?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

The Countach is definitely a premium. Look at the promotion pictures and zoom in to 100%, I can't imagine that they would add so much detail to a car and still call it a standard. It also has an interior, which is not visible in many of the photos, but there is a picture from Silverstone where you see it from the front and the interior is clearly there.

That was my point 👍

Like ive said... countless time, that statement about it taking 6 months to make a car is should be taken with a grain of salt

So I'm... not supposed to believe Kaz?

Ive modeled 10k-20k poly c10 skyline interior in all, in 3 days (texturing and mapping adds about another few days) and thats on a some what busy schedule( all learned from video tutorials might I add ).

And GT5's models are around 500k, with fully modeled interiors. I imagine the detail in the models and the textures is a bit higher for them

Im 1000% sure they are more knowledgeable about modeling cars.However their techniques are more than likely different.That 6 months for that specific car he based his statement on may include getting the car, striping it apart, and scanning it.I have no idea how long it takes to scan but it may be less demanding than making each piece from scratch however more time consuming.

It may, but it certainly seems to imply it only covers the model creation time for the modeler(s) to complete the car, not the research involved.

If PD paid me, I'd gladly make 100 cars in year.They may not be PD quality and I may need a few bottles of adderrall but I can get it done, especially with a decent PC.

Well, if they're not to PD quality, what would be the point?

I still think it was absolute madness that a PS3 game had "interiors" like that. I wouldn't have even found that acceptable on a PS1 game if I were a developer. It's just awful for a PS3 game to look like that and if GT6 still looks that bad...

Agreed, absolutely.

They put it in by request though. At first the standards didn't have any at all.

I don't think anybody requested black, cardboard-cut-out "interiors", though, especially with the majority of cars not having any of their hood visible for perspective. I'm not a fan of the last-gen assets (Standards), so I know I'd rather see them slowly given Premium replacements and have proper interiors than some sort of half-baked solution. Rather it not done at all than to be done poorly.

Honestly after that post jordan made I dont think they all will be premium cars, however I just dont see how a team of professional modelers cant model close to 800 cars in three years.

In the same genre; T10 hires numerous companies to outsource car model creation, and they haven't even hit that number, with quite a bit more people working on them than PD has available.

Any way I know most of you are just trying not to get your hopes but know that it is possible to model that amount of cars in that amount of time.Ive read articles where some modelers have to make much more and harder models in a certain time frame.

I'd like to see that, actually; while I tend to hold the opinion that PD takes too long to model their cars, I can't argue with the quality of (most) of them, so if there's other companies that are doing the job better, I'd like to see 👍

 

[diegorborges]

Ok, stupid thinking: If they can use adaptative tesselation to reduce the polycount on the fly and then using less resources, they can use that technology on standards to RAISE their polycount?

It's a mad idea... but that + reworked textures will already make things look better.

 

[The_Rpg_Moogle]

In the same genre; T10 hires numerous companies to outsource car model creation, and they haven't even hit that number, with quite a bit more people working on them than PD has available.



I'd like to see that, actually; while I tend to hold the opinion that PD takes too long to model their cars, I can't argue with the quality of (most) of them, so if there's other companies that are doing the job better, I'd like to see 👍

Great point here Slip! I think people need to realize that, even though PD has such a small number of employees, 200 cars of this quality in three years is actually stupidly fast if you compare it to the number of employees T10 has backing them up!

 

[Encyclopedia]

I don't think anybody requested black, cardboard-cut-out "interiors", though, especially with the majority of cars not having any of their hood visible for perspective. I'm not a fan of the last-gen assets (Standards), so I know I'd rather see them slowly given Premium replacements and have proper interiors than some sort of half-baked solution. Rather it not done at all than to be done poorly.

I seem to remember people asking for at least cockpits of GT PSP level.

 

[The_Rpg_Moogle]

I seem to remember people asking for at least cockpits of GT PSP level.

And I actually enjoy them, at least more than bumper-cam anyways. Would love to have them detailed and yes, black cardboard interiors is NOT going to work this time, but back then it was at least a small patch on the wound.

 

[MattZR1]

Hoping they at least clean up the standards to not look so jagged in close ups. Hopefully to the point every car will be able to use photomode.

I know everyone isn't a fan of the Bugatti, but one thing is for sure, they had better make that thing premium and also get the Super Sport version in there too. It only makes sense to give that car the premium treatment.

 

[diegorborges]

I seem to remember people asking for at least cockpits of GT PSP level.

Yes, but it wasn't what we got. If you watch some GTPSP videos, you'll see that the external details on those cockpits are visible... driving a RUF Yellowbird for example, made you feel that you are in the car because of the iconic Porsche shape... Or the typical hood scoop from a Subaru. Far from excelent, but WAY better than only the silhouettes.

 

[Marill]

Well, at least a steering wheel.

I mean, a little detail wouldn't hurt...

 

[Bigbazz]

That is assuming 1. They have the same amount workers as they did during gt5 development, and 2.That those modelers dont know how to program.None of which we will ever be sure of. So again... its not far fetched.I also dont know where the extra 200 or so cars come from to make it 1000 standards
Honestly after that post jordan made I dont think they all will be premium cars, however I just dont see how a team of professional modelers cant model close to 800 cars in three years.

You dont know where the extra 200 came from?


810 (ish) standards in GT5
221 (ish) premiums in GT5
30 (ish) DLC premiums in GT5

= 1061 cars

GT6 has 1200 cars, including all of the GT5 cars.


Now this probably isn't the total number of GT5 cars with promotional stuff but it is the cars that are available to everyone. So that leaves 139 cars to make the 1200 mark. 810 standards + 139 new premiums = 949 cars.


That is an extra 51 cars in my approximate to 1000, hardly an "extra 200". And I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by showing a basic mesh of the outside of a car. There is no chance at all that GT6 will convert all of the standards, optimistic is not even the word for someone who believes that.

 

[screp RC]

Quote me on this if you want but I bet that there will be a distribution of +500 premium to +600 standard cars and the standards this time will have the kind of treatment that the Catheram 7, some LMPs, Prowler etc had when SPEC 2.0 arrived on GT5.

 

[shadynader]

Ok, stupid thinking: If they can use adaptative tesselation to reduce the polycount on the fly and then using less resources, they can use that technology on standards to RAISE their polycount?

It's a mad idea... but that + reworked textures will already make things look better.

Not as crazy as you think Diegorborges in fact thats what it is designed to do, higher quality objects that come 'cheaper' than traditional poly's on the fly as it compresses the vertex data and is a hell of a lot more efficient than the more 'expensive' traditional poly's + LOD's.

Whether they have done this to standards is anybodys guess as, as you say, textures would surely need an update. But if they have, expect quite a big improvement in, at least the model itself.

 

[CCXRacer]

When I stop and think about it, it's amazing I've put up with Playstation 2 cars being in GT5. Now here we are less than a year away from Playstation 4's release and it's a possibility car models from 2 console generations ago might again fill up the bulk of the line-up in GT6. I feel like they will implode if they do this, it's no secret that GT5 got a bad reputation from it. (Look at the comments on gaming sites like IGN, they make GTPlanet look absolutely cheery.)

So while part me feels like standards will be back, the other part of me wants to believe that PD as a company are smart enough to not repeat history and that all 1200 cars will be premium.

Personally I will buy the game regardless. But I fear if they implement 'standards' yet again it may cause an irreversible dent in their reputation. Bottom line, I literally can't wait until this topic develops further.

 

[Mr Laocean]

I'm going to go on a limb and say, yes.. there will be standard cars. When it comes to PolyPhony Digital, you've gotta realize that they bring you more of the same release after release.

For GT4's release, they boasted about the car count. GT5, they did the same.. and I'm not surprised they're doing it again for GT6, claiming over 1000+ cars.