StarCraft 2 - Season 7 is live. Someday I'll ladder, honest

  • Thread starter Azuremen
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Basically a build that a Terran does against Protoss. Name comes from getting 1 Rax, 1 Fact, and 1 Starport (Generally before getting addons for any I think? Maybe one on the Rax). It think it's strength is in it's versitility which makes it hard for the Protoss to get the right unit compoistion (Azuremen will probably be able to explain better), but as a Toss you don't know if the Terran is going say, Marine/Tank/Banshee, Hellion Drops with Marines at the front, Hellion/Banshee, etc. A lot of time the Terran will pull most of his SCVs as well and rely on MULEs for minerals, making it basically an all-in.

I think contrary to what the standard mindset is, the best way to defend as protoss is to actually expand early???
 
As Casio mentioned, it's a build where the terran player gets 1 rax, 1 fact, and 1 starport quickly. they then have a great versitility. But lately, a stratgey has been developed that is an all in, and can be difficult for a Protoss to hold. This particular all in contains marines, tanks (usually with seige mode), banshees, and about half the SCV's for repairs and tanking a bit of damage.

I forgot to mention it's the first time I've come across it, and it was the complete all in. I usually expand reasonably early against terran, so my expansion is up and had some probes on the line
 
I think basically what you have to do is poke and see what they make after the first rax, if they make another rax then it's not a 1/1/1 (And maybe not safe to expand), if they staight make a factory then just expand. I believe 1 gate, then robo, then Nexus. You want Immortals to deal with the tanks.
 
1 gate expand is generally considered best way to deal with 1-1-1 since mass gate production handily beats it.

I usually do a 1 or 2 gate expand with a fast forge/council vs T for either blink harass if they go for a fast gasless expo, or (usually) zeal charge for dealing with general aggression. Fast armor upgrades also really help since marines suck against zealots with armor ups.
 
1 gate expand is generally considered best way to deal with 1-1-1 since mass gate production handily beats it.

I usually do a 1 or 2 gate expand with a fast forge/council vs T for either blink harass if they go for a fast gasless expo, or (usually) zeal charge for dealing with general aggression. Fast armor upgrades also really help since marines suck against zealots with armor ups.

I take it you've never dealt with Cloak Banshee harass into Siege tank/Marine/Banshee push with about a dozen SCVs?

Mass gate production does not handily beat it. And 2 gate expand won't give you enough of an economy to over whelm it with how the timings works out. Well, at least against decent players. And getting Charge before it hits is out of the question as well, there simply isn't enough time if they are executing it properly.
 
I take it you've never dealt with Cloak Banshee harass into Siege tank/Marine/Banshee push with about a dozen SCVs?

Mass gate production does not handily beat it. And 2 gate expand won't give you enough of an economy to over whelm it with how the timings works out. Well, at least against decent players. And getting Charge before it hits is out of the question as well, there simply isn't enough time if they are executing it properly.

People are silly in Plat :P

Cloak variations usually only show up with cloak as part of the big push, haven't seen cloak harass->push. I offrace P so it's either a 2gate expand, 1gate expand, or 1gate robo and robo is the least prevalent of those.


Also, I played a short little TvP on shakuras where i decided to pretend it was TvZ and went for a hellion expand->Hellion/Marauder/medivac with a light marine sprinkling. Used the hellion harass to cover while i got up to 4OC on 2base and eventually won when the P went to attack and sac'd his entire base and all his probes to a combined hellion runby/2 medivac 8 marauder drop. Lost my nat CC and all the scv's there to hold it, but ended up winning after i killed all his gates and flew the 8 marauders back to clean up the handful of stalkers he had left. :D

The hellions were pretty handy for sentry sniping and pretending they were zerglings for scouting/harass, actually. Also helps when you can do a marine/hellion push and stalkers can't run away :3
 
The report of the proposed changes in Patch 1.4.3.
Blizzard
MULEs now harvest the same amount of minerals on both high yield minerals and normal minerals.

We’ve been looking into the effects that high yield expansions have on gameplay, in particular how the added efficiency of MULEs on these mineral patches can affect matchups. This is also a common piece of feedback we’ve received from both pro players and the community.
We’ve been closely monitoring several sources of information: GSL tournaments which feature maps that do not have high yield mineral patches at all, major tournaments that still use high yield expansions, and our own ladder maps data now that our 1v1 ladder features a tournament-like map pool.
Based on these observations, we’ve made the decision to keep MULE resource generation the same regardless of mineral type, while allowing high yield mineral patches to remain on our ladder maps. This change helps keep the risk vs. reward the same for all three races when acquiring expansions that feature high yield minerals.

Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic

We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well. Especially at the pro level, we were seeing a lot of games where terran players were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts to counter most of the options zerg players had at their disposal.
While we like to see creative and innovative use of units, we felt that in this case Snipe was becoming too effective against zerg’s most expensive units. When adjusting the ability, we tried to settle on a number that would allow using Snipe to remain a viable tactic, though not as powerful as it is now. With this change, brood lords will fall in ten casts of Snipe rather than six (taking into account health regeneration), while an ultralisk will die in 21 casts, up from 11. This also significantly increases the number of ghosts and stockpiled energy needed to pull this tactic off, which we feel confident about because, previously, terran players rarely needed to consider the energy on their ghosts units.

Phoenix now has a range upgrade at the Fleet Beacon


In the past, we’ve discussed whether protoss needed a more immediate change to give them additional ways of dealing with mutalisks in PvZ, or whether it was more appropriate to make changes to that matchup in Heart of the Swarm. After investigating, testing, and reviewing both community and pro feedback, we’ve decided to include a change in this patch.
The phoenix will now have 6 attack range after purchasing an upgrade, which should allow them to more easily deal with a large number of mutalisks. In the previous patch, when protoss players attempted to move their armies out across the map, their bases became extremely vulnerable. Existing options to cope with massed mutalisks were costly and not always effective. This range upgrade should help even the odds by giving protoss players the option to reactively build phoenixes in smaller numbers, and with some micro, allow them to more efficiently defend against mutalisk swarms. Upgraded phoenixes should also offer protoss players the potential for better map control in the PvZ match up.
Still, we also wanted to make sure that producing mutalisks in PvZ remains a viable strategy, and believe that it is. While it might not be a good idea to brute force a protoss opponent with a ton of mutalisks, pairing them with units such as infestors and/or corruptors will help counter the advantage the new range upgrade provides.

APM / CPM changes

There was a lot of concern and debate regarding whether APM should be an accurate number or it should be a fun, play style distinguishing factor like it has been traditionally. After hearing a lot of feedback from both sides, we decided to bring back classic APM, which will track all actions issued by the player. Meanwhile, EPM (effective actions per minute) will continue to track actual commands as it did prior to patch 1.4.3.
This way, pro players who want to show off how fast their hands move can do so with APM, while at the same time players who really just want to know how accurate and efficient their actions are can look at EPM.



************
As always, we will continue to follow player discussions on our forums as well as fan sites and beyond, and we look forward to your constructive feedback regarding these changes. As with all balance-related changes, we've made these decisions with great care and consideration to ensure a great playing experience for players of all skill levels.
Most of the changes I can completely accept, no worries, except Snipe

Quite frankly, I'm lost. TvZ lategame has always been difficult. If zerg go for BL's you get ghosts and vikings. Vikings do most of the damage, and ghosts pitch in, with snipe and whatnot. But now, you have to have an army of vikings to deal with 12+ BL's, and once the BL's are dead, vikings are useless. Make marauders I hear someone say.

Good luck. If the zerg has any sense, they will have an Ultralisk cavern already, so once the the BL's are dead, the Terran has 70-80s to rebuild (55s Ultralisk build time), that's 2 and 2/3rds of a marauder (30s) per barracks. and if they get it wrong, they get their ass kicked. Last time I checked, Marauders can't shoot up, and vikings are useless against grounded, armoured units, like the Ultralisk

This style of play was alright, because Terran had ghosts to apply some damage to both T3 zerg options. But now, Terran MUST win on two bases vs both Protoss and Zerg, given the difficulty engaging both maxed armies including tech. And as ThorZain (T) and TLO (Z, former T) pointed out in the Team Liquid thread, snipe can't even kill a freaking zergling.

Perhaps better implementation is 30dmg with +20 vs light and psionic.Or increase the energy cost of snipe from 25 to 40. The ghost is already an anti-caster unit, with the EMP. Why make twice as good at countering the same damn thing?
 
It probably should be versus light, but it isn't that big of a deal.

Honestly, please don't do balance and theory crafting from the Plat level. It just doesn't make sense. You do not have to 2 base all in a Zerg every time now.

And why you have to do that to Protoss is beyond me as well. This balance change really won't impact your games at all, frankly.
 
After cooling down a bit after reading the PROPOSED patch notes, I realise this does not really affect me (as Azureman stated), but it does make hive tech harder to deal with. I did use ghosts to assist in fighting BL's, because Thors are rubbish against them, and I usually mech vs Zerg. so once I see hive, I tech to ghosts and Vikings. I'm not exactly super effective in using them, but it helps alot.

Just found out though, that a +3 ghost does more damage to a light target auto attacking than the new snipe would do.
 
so once I see hive, I tech to ghosts and Vikings. I'm not exactly super effective in using them, but it helps alot.

What? You don't have a reactor in your base or a Starport when Hive comes out? Are you serious? Vikings are the response you should be getting against Broodlords anyhow.
 
Could we possibly see a Raven made in a high level TvZ now???

On first look I think the changes made to the Ghost look pretty significant. But I don't really think it will matter against Ultras cause it will probably mean that the Terran might have to pay more attention to positioning and microing Marines vs Ultra's which isn't that bad. However, while the obvious 'counter' to Broods is Vikings, in a late game situation some Zergs make enough Corruptors that Vikings that don't really work too well, a few PDD's and that battle changes entirely. So I don't really mind it.

In regards to the psionic thing, didn't snipe 2 already shot kill Sentry, HT and DT anyway? Why the change from 45 to 50dmg? Also makes it not worth while to snipe Zealots now. As Cody said I think the change to +25 vs Light would have made more sense. Or just less damage to Massive Units....
 
In regards to the psionic thing, didn't snipe 2 already shot kill Sentry, HT and DT anyway? Why the change from 45 to 50dmg? Also makes it not worth while to snipe Zealots now. As Cody said I think the change to +25 vs Light would have made more sense. Or just less damage to Massive Units....

Can't snipe Sentries, as they are not biological.

Honestly, Marauders work pretty well against Ultras because of their DPS.

If Zergs are making that many Corrupters, their ground army is going to be very weak I feel.
 
Snipe can now kill an infestor with 2 shots, not 3. The infestors would have regenerated 1 health in the time between 2 snipes, so it would be left with 1 hp.

Azureman
What? You don't have a reactor in your base or a Starport when Hive comes out? Are you serious? Vikings are the response you should be getting against Broodlords anyhow.

I have a starport to make a raven while I'm massing my army. My original meaning was I add another starport or 2 with reactors. But still corruptors and vikings, woth no upgrades and micro, kill each other in a 1 on 1. Now I know I could micro more, but my target is always going to be the broodlords killings my army. They are the priority in my book.

I know people keep saying Terran is the a-move army, but seriously, it takes intense micro to deal with a-moved ling, baneling corruptor BL army. And effectively engaging a mass of charglots is virtually impossible in the feild, you need something to funnel them in to you so you can't get surrounded.
 
I know people keep saying Terran is the a-move army, but seriously, it takes intense micro to deal with a-moved ling, baneling corruptor BL army. And effectively engaging a mass of charglots is virtually impossible in the feild, you need something to funnel them in to you so you can't get surrounded.

Yes, I am aware. Keep in mind I play every race at Diamond level, and have a high masters Terran practice partner.

Sounds like you just need to pick where you engage a lot better. Also, Hellions against Chargelots are pretty good.
 
Honestly, Marauders work pretty well against Ultras because of their DPS.

When stimmed I don't think anything beats a group of Marauders' DPS against ground armored enemies. When I was just beginning like in bronze when players would just go straight Stalkers a mass ball of Marauders stimmed and with medivacs was just unstoppable.
 
I wish they would give medivacs some sort of speed upgrade for lategame, honestly.

It's so painful when you try to stutterstep a chargelot/archon ball and ALL the medivacs die in like 5 shots because they can't get enough distance ;-;
 
I wish they would give medivacs some sort of speed upgrade for lategame, honestly.

It's so painful when you try to stutterstep a chargelot/archon ball and ALL the medivacs die in like 5 shots because they can't get enough distance ;-;

Yes, lets make one of the best dropship class things in the game even better by letting it drop units even faster.
 
Yes, lets make one of the best dropship class things in the game even better by letting it drop units even faster.

Warp prism and overlord both have speed upgrades, and while the overlords don't really get used all that often, nydus, mutas, and creep's speed bonus means that zerg doesn't really need aerial transport for counterattacks.

Plus, every race except protoss (as far as i've seen) builds lots of static D in lategame to defend drops. Mass spines, turrets, and PF's are all used to help stop drop harass or at least slow it enough for a slice of army to intercede. From what i've seen Protoss doesn't do it because they tend to stay on a smaller number of bases (more compact), have options to see it coming (obs), and blinkstalkers are really good fast response units since they can bypass ramps/small impassable areas. At the very worst, they would have to build some cannons at their expos instead of only relying on splitting chunks from deathball/warpins as a counter.

And if it was an upgrade on the fusion core, it would probably end up as a "when you can" thing that gets upgraded once T is maxed and doesn't have much to spend gas on, similar to the +1 range/+2 armor things for buildings.
 
You're gonna compare the speed of Medivacs to Overlords? Really? The overlords are as slow as a snail.

And i'm a Terran player!
 
Overlords have speed upgrades because they are hilariously slow without. Warp Prisms have speed upgrades because they are slower than Medivacs without it, more fragile, and they don't heal the units they just dropped.

Protoss builds a cannon here or there to address T drops. Couple more for Muta play. Most players do not surround their entire base with missile turrets at higher levels because it is just a huge waste of resources - that is a uniquely low level thing. You will see high level players add on a few to deal with Mutas, but never a ring to handle drops. Just hugely wasteful.
 
For me I just stick two in between my mineral fields and CC. If they are going heavy Mutas I put three. Usually that keeps them at bay unless they hit critical mass.
 
I'm not sure if he still does it, but I remember MVP a while ago used to get Hi-Sec Autotracking quite early and nearly every TvZ game.

Building armor is also quite good, a turret with building armor surrounded by SCVs basically won't die to any number of mutas.

***MVP game with Hi-Sec***
 
When I'm doing a reactor first 2 rax push (With 2 Maurader + Concus), should I be targeting Stalkers or Zealots first.

I just had a match where I did a 2 rax pressure, then he just plopped down 8 gates got blink and killed me. I did some decent damage I felt to him early on, though mis-micro'd into a corner and lost a little bit at the start, is that what cost me this game?

Replay attached.
 

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Well I've always been told that even the tiniest mistakes at the beginning at the game can potentially cause the opponent to be leaps and bounds ahead of you later in the game. But that could just be at pro level.

As far as zealots or stalkers first I'd say initially stalkers since they have a bonus on your marauders plus at the same time you have a bonus on them. They're much more efficient at killing stalkers than zealots obviously. But those annoying little buggers can kill marauders pretty quick especially since their dps against zealots is crap. So I guess its a catch 22. Hurts the protoss player more to lose stalkers than zealots though.
 
Stalkers. Always. Well, at least in the early game with that push. Reason being is if you have Conc shells you can kite the Zealots, but with the Stalkers there doing damage, you'll lose eventually. The point of the Marauders isn't for damage, it is to slow units so you can better kite.
 
Azuremen
Stalkers. Always. Well, at least in the early game with that push. Reason being is if you have Conc shells you can kite the Zealots, but with the Stalkers there doing damage, you'll lose eventually. The point of the Marauders isn't for damage, it is to slow units so you can better kite.

Ugh.. micro. Thing is when I kite I forget to be mindful of my base and production.
 

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