StarCraft 2 - Season 7 is live. Someday I'll ladder, honest

[Casio]

I was playing Protoss earlier, and doing a Forge fast expand against a zerg, who decided to go hatch first. I always go for an early forge (12, 13 supply). I noticed he had no vision of his expo, so I built a pylon and 2 cannons behind the minerals before the hatch "hatched". It wound up killing the hatch, at which point I built a massive 3 base army and stomped him. Post-game, he messages me that "Silly gold resorts to cheese to win. so sad". I went to reply, but he set me to ignore.

So, freinds, do you consider cannoning a zerg who goes hatch first cheese?

I for one, do not. this tactic does not completely require suprise, and it was only a 400 mineral investment to deny an early expand.

I don't consider that cheese. I've seen it done many times at pro level. Some people like to pylon block the hatch and if you have a forge up why not put a cannon there. Though it's more questionable on a map with the close third the zerg can just take instead.

People on the ladder call any early pressure cheese these days, like they want to play 20NR games everytime.

---

On my note I'm now Gold level on SEA. Hurrrrrrrr.

Though I need a zerg practice partner. Having trouble with this mass ling + muta/infestor style.

Funny story. The other day I wasn't awake properly and accidentally entered a 1v1 as Zerg (think I was playing Zerg in a team game over the weekend), anyway faced a Gold Toss who I proceeded to crush with roach/ling/infestor.

tl:dr - Zerg is ez mode.

 

[Gazumagi]

Got to diamond!

 

[CMvan46]

Well I just got an unexpected bonus from work so I decided to buy this. I used to love RTS games a while back and I'd love to start again.

Where do you start as a total beginner at this?

 

[granturismite]

I'd say, the campaign. It features some units you can't use in multiplayer, but you can start to get used to the User Interface and control methods.

Perhaps you should watch some of this pro tournament to get a feel for the game -> Iron Squid (watching in english is advised)

 

[CMvan46]

I'd say, the campaign. It features some units you can't use in multiplayer, but you can start to get used to the User Interface and control methods.

Perhaps you should watch some of this pro tournament to get a feel for the game -> Iron Squid (watching in english is advised)

Ok thanks.

I've done the first 5 or so campaign missions now after the Starter Edition ones. I've tried 3 practice matches and lost all 3.

One question I have:

In one of the 3 matches my army and the other army missed each other on what I'm assuming was a larger map and ended up attacking each others bases with somewhat limited defenses although I did have more than him. We were both blowing up buildings and it ended up being his 8 or so Marines and I had a banshee, a few ghosts, a Thor and a couple marines left. All of a sudden it said he'd won. Did he only win because he destroyed my buildings first? I'm fairly sure my remaining units would have beat 8 marines.

 

[Gazumagi]

Ok thanks.

I've done the first 5 or so campaign missions now after the Starter Edition ones. I've tried 3 practice matches and lost all 3.

One question I have:

In one of the 3 matches my army and the other army missed each other on what I'm assuming was a larger map and ended up attacking each others bases with somewhat limited defenses although I did have more than him. We were both blowing up buildings and it ended up being his 8 or so Marines and I had a banshee, a few ghosts, a Thor and a couple marines left. All of a sudden it said he'd won. Did he only win because he destroyed my buildings first? I'm fairly sure my remaining units would have beat 8 marines.

yes. The victory condition for a 1v1 is your opponent having no buildings left. Something to consider when that kind o fthing happens is that terran buildings can fly, so you can lift some off and spread them out to make it harder for your opponent to beat you

 

[CMvan46]

yes. The victory condition for a 1v1 is your opponent having no buildings left. Something to consider when that kind o fthing happens is that terran buildings can fly, so you can lift some off and spread them out to make it harder for your opponent to beat you

Ahhh ok, God that must seem so obvious to everyone else I was just going along destroying everything and had him down to 8 Marines so I was pretty happy with myself I was pretty shocked when it said I lost because I thought no matter what I'd have won that.

 

[granturismite]

Yeah. That can happen. Base races can be a pretty exciting end to a match that one side seems to be winning, only for it to go horribly wrong. You really do have to worry about that, and if you think he can take out your base, spread SCV's around the map, and build refineries, depots, or more Command Centres

 

[CMvan46]

Yeah. That can happen. Base races can be a pretty exciting end to a match that one side seems to be winning, only for it to go horribly wrong. You really do have to worry about that, and if you think he can take out your base, spread SCV's around the map, and build refineries, depots, or more Command Centres

Yeah I've been reading a lot today and I realize I'm not expanding to new bases enough. All the things I've read say you need to have a 2nd base built long before your first runs out of minerals and a 3rd being setup not too long after that. I had no idea you needed to do that.

 

[granturismite]

Paitence young padawan, you will learn the ways of the Bonjwa soon enough.

I came into playing SC2 after about 6-8 months of watching it from my poor quality laptop, so I was very familiar with the game mechanics (eg, expanding, units that 'counter' other units, etc). So for you to come in fresh just means you have more to learn, and enjoy through the learning process. I do suggest watching a couple of pro games, and watch in awe of their skills and speed

 

[Azuremen]

Yeah I've been reading a lot today and I realize I'm not expanding to new bases enough. All the things I've read say you need to have a 2nd base built long before your first runs out of minerals and a 3rd being setup not too long after that. I had no idea you needed to do that.

I try to expand every 6 to 7 minutes, game time. I'm also a big macro style player, so almost needed for the things I do.

Basically, try to make workers constantly without queueing and don't let your minerals pile up too much. General rule of thumb is you can support 3 production structures and some research per saturated base, which is about 24 workers. I generally make 1 or 2 production structures and expand when I have 400 minerals, then add 2 more and setup to take another expansion as I get some tech in place.

 

[tlowr4]

Well, since I most likely will never get to play against you guys (don't have full version, and when I do my connection mightn't be good enough to play online).

My main stratagy (for TVT on any map). The 3M's. Marines, Maroarders, Medivacs.

1: Gather minerals, build depots, both gas, and two barracks. Set one barracks with the reactor, one with a extra build plant thingy...whatever it is.
2: While you're doing that, secure all choke points with bunkers, filled with two marines and 1 marrorder each (userally two bunkers per choke point, a third can be placed back a bit for backup support if the choke point is breached).
3: Play defense. Build up your army and set them to sit around each choke point, alongside the bunkers. Once you have the biggest army imaginable (just marins, maroarders, and medivacs), go in like a big 🤬 mob. Blow it all to hell.
4: Of course, while all this is going on, securities around the bass need to be made. Turrets and a seige tank here and there are the best IMO.

Fairly dodgy scheme, very cheesy, but hey, I'm that kinda guy

 

[Azuremen]

Marauder

If you play on SEA, Casio could easily play you and SEA players can also play on the NA servers, at least with the retail version.

Sounds like you play very much like someone new - turtle hard on one base and try to max out from there.

Not cheesy, just passive in every way and thus puts you at a large disadvantage. If I saw that, I'd take a 3rd base by 11 minutes probably and just trade units all day with you.

 

[tlowr4]

^^ Haha, yeah. I'm an absolute noob. Since the AI strategy is basically the same every time, I've worked out (using this statagy) how to beat it on Very Hard. Insane is just too much, considering I play on a touchpad and don't use hotkeys, I'm lucky if I last more than 5 minutes...

 

[CMvan46]

Ok thanks guys. I did watch a fair bit and I've looked into some basic build orders and why they theoretically work.

I just had my first win I expanded to my second base at 6 minutes and was running 2 barracks (one reactor, one tech) and was pushing out 2 marines and either a marauder or reaper. I also built a factory with reactor and was building 2 hellions at a time. When I had a decent size army I stormed his base. I had scouted and he was trying to build too many things instead of units so it was over in 15 minutes.

Azurman what league are you in?

I'm trying out some Protoss now. First game lasted a half hour against Zerg. It finally ended when I defended an attack and tried to counter and when I did he snuck behind me and took out all my probes. I couldn't replace me units fast enough but I know how I'd do it differently next time so I my be switching to Protoss now

 

[granturismite]

Just had a long offline session, and I just figured out how to beat two insane AI vs me. I won't give it all away, but it was TvZZ on a selected map, and i used units purely from reactors.

The Insane AI cheats. It gets more resources per worker trip, and can see what your doing, all at about 3000 APM. Plus is uber-aggressive, where it was getting a natural, and going hive tech at the same time in favour of beating me to a bloody pulp. So I was pretty happy when I beat it far and square (-ish)

Protoss?....Okay. I think my best race is Protoss, except for PvP. I had 6 straight on the ladder the other day, and guess how many I lost? Yep, that's right. 6. I think PvP at the moment is too heavy on punishing macro play, as most PvP games average 12 minutes, as opposed to most other matchups (except ZvZ) averaging 20 minutes (source, Team Liquid forums, dunno the actual thread)

But I do love a good Colossus/High Templar death ball, so I keep switching between P and T. You just need to find the race that suits you, and you it.

And towlr, just so you know, a static M,M,M player in any match will get crushed by most armies, as opposed to against AI. but it works well against AI, so gl, hf!

 

[CMvan46]

I'm back to Terran. I played the AI a few times on different maps each time and tried to work out a base strategy I liked and I could keep up with.

Maybe somebody could critique this so it would work on real players but I was:

Putting up a supply depot, barracks, refinery, and immediately did a tech upgrade on the barracks to make 3 reapers. I took those three reapers on a scouting mission to the other base and took out as many of their workers as possible. I then placed a bunker with a couple marines at the entrance and started a second barracks with a reactor. The reactor one constantly pumping out marines and the regular doing marauders. I then expanded and built a couple bunkers around the expansion. Then I started with the factory and seige tanks with seige upgrade. I kind of turtled until their first attack and by that time had a good number of tanks, 2 expansions with bunkers, a starport making banshees and medivacs and still my marines. I then took my army of about 50 to the other base shortly after his failed attack and it was over.


Now I know the AI isn't a real person, I played on medium difficulty and basically stuck with that strategy against Zerg, Protoss and Terran which worked all 3 times. Is that something that would work in low level real world games or what should I change? I know I leave myself wide open to an early rush and I think if I was on a smaller map I'd likely skip the reapers and build a reactor barracks first to get more units earlier on.

Anyway still trying to learn. I downloaded a few videos for break here at work today. I was really trying to focus on spending my money in those games. It's really hard when you get up to 3 bases those. In that case I obviously need more barracks, factories, starport but how do you keep building them and paying attention to everything else?


Edit: I apologize for the wall of text.

 

[Azuremen]

Azurman what league are you in?

I haven't had the time to ladder in ages. When I am warmed up and in the mindset, I can take games off high masters players. I'm officially in Diamond, just need to actually play enough games to get into Masters.

A few people on here have played against me

I main Protoss, but can play Random at a Diamond level.

Reapers are like... okay. Building one is about all I'd bother with. A low level player will panic. If you build 3 against me, I'll just leave a Stalker in my main and go kill you right then and there, since a Reaper takes twice as long to train as a Marine, so 3 Reapers quick means virtually no other units, and certainly no Marauders with Concussive Shells. Basically a free win.

 

[Casio]

3 Reapers actually is a legitimate strategy, though it's actually pretty old and out of date now. The reason why 3 reapers is ok, is that 3 reapers one shot a worker, so you can do some good damage to the mineral line if your opponent is caught off guard. The problem with reapers at low levels is they die so ridiculously easy, players end up either microing the reapers well but then falling out on macro, or macroing and losing their reapers easy. They're actually quite a difficult unit to use.

I've also noticed that a few of you new (Terran) guys seem to be using a lot of premptive bunkers. The best way to use bunkers in my opinion is to be scouting and have a unit in the path between your and their base if you think they are going for a strong push. A watch tower is better if it's in a suitable good location. Most times if you see a large army moving out close to their base, you'll have time to put up bunkers before they reach your base.

In regards to spending money. You just need a lot of facilities. Personally, once you're on 2 bases you basically need 2 workers making depots constantly. It's also never bad to have Barracks if you're Terran or Gateways if you're Protoss.

PS: Cody going to take you on again now I'm more gosu.

 

[CMvan46]

Hmm okay thanks. I've only tried the reapers thing against AI and it worked well then because they had a few zealots built the one time and nothing built the others so it severely screwed up his economy at the start and the graph at the end showed he couldn't catch up after that.

The reason I feel the need for the preemptive bunker is I'm afraid of being rushed without knowing. In the practice matches I've done so far a lot of new players love to rush.

Watched a few videos today on my breaks and I noticed one pro level guy doing an immediate two bunker push with marines. While he was pushing with the first marines he expanded quickly and then came out with 4 bunkers plus seige tanks. I quite like that strategy as I don't think it'd be too far off from what I was doing now.

This is probably one of the best game purchases I've made in a while. It seems so simple but my god is it difficult. Atleast that medium AI doesn't stand a chance anymore

 

[Casio]

I guess it may depend on your style of play. Against Zerg I'll almost always 12/14 Bunker rush into expand. But rarely put up defensive bunkers unless I'm facing a strong Protoss timing, and I'll almost never place any defensive bunkers vs Terran (Cause you should be using seige tanks). Remember that 3 bunkers is the same cost as 2 rax, which is much more valuable.

 

[Azuremen]

I must add in that anything that works against the AI tells you absolutely nothing about it working against a human.

3 Reapers is viable against Terran and Zerg. You will die against, virtually, any Protoss build for PvT.

 

[CMvan46]

Well I'm pretty frustrated not being able to win with an consistency. I'm into the Bronze league now and I've won twice. Time for bed now after I just had a 45 minute long battle where we both ended up with maxed out armies. He had cloaked Banshees and I didn't and that's what did me in. My massive army of Thors were destroying the last of his bases and then the cloaked banshees came in and to my knowledge I have no idea how to see them other than with the Raven.

How did you guys learn to play? I've played RTS games before although never competitively in anyway but I've never played Starcraft before.

Also how do you stop and early Zergling rush or and early Zealot rush? That got me a couple times tonight.

 

[Casio]

The interesting thing about Starcraft is that you generally won't win with any consistency, even at Master level. The multiplayer is designed so you have an appropriately 50/50 Win/Loss ratio.

 

[Blackbird.]

Well I'm pretty frustrated not being able to win with an consistency. I'm into the Bronze league now and I've won twice. Time for bed now after I just had a 45 minute long battle where we both ended up with maxed out armies. He had cloaked Banshees and I didn't and that's what did me in. My massive army of Thors were destroying the last of his bases and then the cloaked banshees came in and to my knowledge I have no idea how to see them other than with the Raven.

How did you guys learn to play? I've played RTS games before although never competitively in anyway but I've never played Starcraft before.

Also how do you stop and early Zergling rush or and early Zealot rush? That got me a couple times tonight.

As far as detection true the raven is a detector but your orbital command has scanner sweep. But I see you're new so I suggest searching online for basic build orders and looking into some basic Terran strategy. Other than that I'm sure we all can give you some pointers here but just keep playing. Only way I got better. Oh and for rushes. Scouting is something you should learn to do once you get a basic BO down. It allows you in most cases to figure out their strategy by seeing what they're building/doing. If you suspect a rush block your ramp with structures.

 

[CMvan46]

The interesting thing about Starcraft is that you generally won't win with any consistency, even at Master level. The multiplayer is designed so you have an appropriately 50/50 Win/Loss ratio.

I'm nowhere near 50/50 though.
My biggest weakness seems to be the early rush. How do you defend that properly? I always seem to end up with zealots or zerglings in my base when I've only got a couple marines out.


Oh you posted while I was writing but I've seen a lot of videos of people blocking off their ramps but somehow they always get through mine?

 

[Blackbird.]

I'm nowhere near 50/50 though.
My biggest weakness seems to be the early rush. How do you defend that properly? I always seem to end up with zealots or zerglings in my base when I've only got a couple marines out.


Oh you posted while I was writing but I've seen a lot of videos of people blocking off their ramps but somehow they always get through mine?

One thing you could do is: the awesome thing about Terrans is we can repair our structures. Even if you have two marines out, grab an SCV or two and right click on your Supply Depot or what ever they're trying to take down and they'll repair it while your marines pick them off. Zerglings and Zealots are melee, Marines are ranged. If they're smart they'll pull their units off. If not you'll slowly pick all of them off and negate their attack.

Casio or Azuremen though might do a better job giving you more in-depth pointers though. I play 2v2 primarily. Not a good 1v1 player and from my experience the strategies are not the same.

Speaking of which, our team made Gold this season.

 

[CMvan46]

Ok that makes sense but is it possible to completely block off the ramp? I usually have some hole where they seem to get through?

 

[Blackbird.]

AFAIK, it's possible to completely block off all the ramps. Normal sized ones usually take a Supply depot, Barracks, than another supply depot. Larger ramps may require more. But maybe Casio and AMen ( ) can let us know if it's worth blocking massive ramps spending extra minerals to block them off.

Basic Terran BO I believe is:
9 Supply Depot
11 Barracks
13 Refinery
14 Orbital Command

I think that's the barebones structure of a Terran BO. After that they have many possibilites. My basic BO is based off of that and my strategy is usually 2 rax then I get my second refinery and build a factory. I like to end games relatively quickly and go with Marine, marauder, tanks. If it ends up going longer I get some upgrade structures, starport for medivacs and try to expand more.

 

[CMvan46]

Ok thanks a lot for the help. I've tried those structures to block zerglings but they still got through so I'm obviously not placing them in the right places. I think if I could stop initial rushes I'd be able to win a lot more often.