Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA)

  • Thread starter tlowr4
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What do you think about the new Internet BlackList Bill?

  • It's a load of crap! GET RID OF IT!!

    Votes: 131 67.9%
  • It's S.978 all over again. KILL IT. KILL IT WITH FIRE!!

    Votes: 57 29.5%
  • Oh finally, the US realizes that there's too much copywrited stuff going on these days. I'm happy ab

    Votes: 5 2.6%

  • Total voters
    193
Context, as has been explained to you by other users. You came in hear disgusted by the majority of this thread, so it is quite a simple conclusion. You could have easily come in to the thread and be against anti-sopa people and still not sound like a pro-SOPA sided member. But if you're truly not for SOPA obviously you came in here to pick a fight and flame an entire thread by calling them out.

I was taken aback by the flippant attitude towards piracy, and expressed disgust. I also noted that few had argued effectively against SOPA, in my opinion. I had formed no opinion of SOPA prior.

I apologise if my dialogue has caused confusion between my views (and emotions) on piracy and it's effects, and the concurrent conversation about SOPA. Though maybe you and others chose not to observe the distinction.
 
I was taken aback by the flippant attitude towards piracy, and expressed disgust. I also noted that few had argued effectively against SOPA, in my opinion. I had formed no opinion of SOPA prior.

I apologise if my dialogue has caused confusion between my views (and emotions) on piracy and it's effects, and the concurrent conversation about SOPA. Though maybe you and others chose not to observe the distinction.

I realize (since I just said so) that there can be a distinction your realization and apology is enough to no longer call you a pro-SOPA user. Due to the fact that it was confusing for us and why you should just not argue this in an emotional context.
 
Well, the "This Is The End For The Internet" squad isn't exactly inspiring nor enlightening us, either.

Oh, but it very much would be. Taking the onus off the copyright holder and putting it on the users of the internet would ruin simply everything. Try to do anything on YouTube with the knowledge that even one vaguely identifiable logo that isn't censored could get you massive fines, jail time, and a felony record, even if the copyright holder themself couldn't care less. That would kill the internet in seconds. I'm almost willing to go so far as to call the whole "we must do this to stop piracy" stuff a paper-thin disguise.
 
I realize (since I just said so) that there can be a distinction your realization and apology is enough to no longer call you a pro-SOPA user. Due to the fact that it was confusing for us and why you should just not argue this in an emotional context.

Truce laden hand-shake.

I'd still like to know who shares the goals in regards to piracy though. I've not made assumptions about how people on here consume their entertainment and such, so...?

I'm almost willing to go so far as to call the whole "we must do this to stop piracy" stuff a paper-thin disguise.
Open to hearing more about this. It may go much further to informing my attitude towards SOPA.
 
I disagree, and never a fan of opinion as "fact" declarations.

Noted. I stand by my statement, based on the fact that torrents are not always used for illegal purposes.

May I ask what you think your percentages of legal and illegal downloads might be?

You may.

I'm prepared for a slap in the face if your stats are surprisingly angelic. I also realise that my question could come across as intrusive and smarmy. It's most likely both.

Why did you use the word "surprisingly" in your statement? I believe a reasonable person could interpret the statement as implying that you believe I likely engage in illegal activities. You would have no basis for such a belief whatsoever, other than my opposition to SOPA. Which raises the implication that if one is opposed to SOPA, one must be a pirate.


I am genuinely not sure of what question(s) you would like me to answer, but more than willing to blather on some more.

I made my post here in response to a question that, after reviewing your recent posts, you never asked. Be that as it may, I ask what are your thoughts on SOPA, and why?

I'll go with a hypothetical. If say, 80% of downloaded torrents are illegal ones and 40% of all possible search engine results are for illegal material, does it not make torrents more of a problem, if stopping piracy is the aim?

First of all is the implication that either torrents or search engines are a problem. They are not the problem; the problem if any is the people using them for illegal purposes. Second, there is not a one to one correspondence between search engine results and torrents. A single search engine query could (and I would think often does) result in multiple illegal downloads, for instance. So comparing percentages is meaningless.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
I'd say his struggling music business is bias and something that has been around since the web bubble of the late 90s is a convenient excuse to blame it on. Perhaps some sort of chart that isn't by the lobbying group for these bills, that shows the music industry is clinging by their finger nails and SOPA in all it's internet securing glory will save them.

Oh, I agree...that SOPA was crafted mostly by huge businesses that have no reason telling others what they can do with their computers in a more restrictive fashion is enough for me to say: No.

If the music business was really so down the crapper, it wouldn't had made it along another decade, financially. Never mind the ability for the masses to pirate music has existed since the mid-1970s. I'm not ignorant of the rampant piracy that exists today, either. People will find a way to circumvent The System, whether it's a toll road, a gate, card-reader, camera, phone, dressing up as a police officer...

There's still good and bad music out there, just as there's always been (because good and bad is subjective). Obviously, record companies find some profit in signing contracts, so somebody's paying for the music, because I still have a reason to ignore the Grammys and Video Music Awards every year.

The delivery method has started to transcend a fixed medium, and that's what hurts the record stores the most. The sheer variety and discographic volume also makes it tough for a traditional bricks-and-mortar store to compete.
 
I'd still like to know who shares the goals in regards to piracy though. I've not made assumptions about how people on here consume their entertainment and such, so...?

Piracy is a big problem, and it's one that the recording industry needs to solve on their own. Patents and Copyright are philosophically identical. One is the protection of an individual's technical creation, the other is the protection of an individual's artistic creation. Copyright should require maintenance fees (government doesn't protect it if you don't care about it), it should require application, it should last 20 years from the application, it should not be a criminal offense to infringe (it should be a civil offense), and so it should be policed by the copyright holder rather than by the police. If you want to recoup damages from copyright violation you should sue. At the end of 20 years or whenever the maintenance fees are abandoned, the copyrighted work becomes owned by the public.

I'm highly confident that the recording industry to can hire some bright folks who can come up with ways to stop most of the piracy going on and/or entice people to make legitimate purchases. They won't be able to get it all, but they don't need to.
 
Open to hearing more about this. It may go much further to informing my attitude towards SOPA.

The way I see it, there are three types of people who would be interested in seeing SOPA pass.

1. First are corporate interests who think no measure is too extreme as long as it stops a single act of piracy. We already know there are a lot of these, just look at the RIAA's war on everyone.

2. Power-hungry politicians, financiers, and other elites who want to control what people think or say. Call it a one-world order or just a club of greedy, hubrised-up schemers, it all works out the same. These people would be primarily interested in suffocating the "little guy" off the internet so no one can find enough of a voice to challenge them, and requiring expensive licensing agreements for every single thing in every video, picture, or article would do a great job of that.

3. A hybird of the above, mainly media elites. The internet's "everyone has a megaphone" structure is undermining them and making it easier to gain exposure for alternative points of view. But to these people, profit is directly proportional to how many people are dependent on them, so they, too, would have an interest in silencing your blog or website. For them, it would be about brining the flow of information back under their control so they can keep making money off it without needing to adapt their structure or strategy too much.

Take your pick...
 
Why did you use the word "surprisingly" in your statement? I believe a reasonable person could interpret the statement as implying that you believe I likely engage in illegal activities. You would have no basis for such a belief whatsoever, other than my opposition to SOPA. Which raises the implication that if one is opposed to SOPA, one must be a pirate.
Fair. Although it was actually borne out of my generalisation of the average, "free world", modern day citizen. So, if you felt defamed, you can be heartened by the fact that I was defaming the rest of the world at the same time. It was not based on anything SOPA.

Ah, coy, and playing on technicalities. I can feel a friendship coming on.

I was trying to be polite and respectful, and would genuinely like to have an idea of where people are at with their ratios of illegal and legal downloads. I have no interest in "jumping down people's throats" for matter of fact statements.

I made my post here in response to a question that, after reviewing your recent posts, you never asked. Be that as it may, I ask what are your thoughts on SOPA, and why?

I'm learning as I go. I'll remain agnostic about it until I have formed a complete view. For me personally, I wouldn't care if the internet did die. I would care about the repercussions of it dying though. Considering the chaos that ensues when a relative minnow country faces financial ruin, I cannot even imagine the results if the "sky" truly did fall. I'm staunchly anti-piracy, and am dismayed by people who take it lightly, but equally dismayed by the thought of the cause being misrepresented and potentially used as a tool for other ends.

Noted. I stand by my statement, based on the fact that torrents are not always used for illegal purposes.
It's comes down to whether or not the exception should inform the rule. I'm not sure that it shouldn't, but I wouldn't mind if it didn't.

Piracy is a big problem, and it's one that the recording industry needs to solve on their own.
If you want to recoup damages from copyright violation you should sue.
I can't help thinking of the bank that hires security guards and installs security systems in attempts to stop robberies. Yet, once a robbery has occurred, the police take over. Does it boil down to illegal vs criminal here? They aren't always static terms though, as for example: repetition of illegal activity can give way to the same act becoming criminal. Speeding while driving is the first thing that comes to mind.

The way I see it, there are three types of people who would be interested in seeing SOPA pass.
1....2....3....

I was imagining a gateway to being able to suppress wikileaks type material.
 
I can't help thinking of the bank that hires security guards and installs security systems in attempts to stop robberies. Yet, once a robbery has occurred, the police take over. Does it boil down to illegal vs criminal here? They aren't always static terms though, as for example: repetition of illegal activity can give way to the same act becoming criminal. Speeding while driving is the first thing that comes to mind.

See Patent Infringement.

Repeat patent infringement makes it more likely that you can be sued for willful patent infringement, which carries extra damages. Still not criminally prosecuted.
 
I was imagining a gateway to being able to suppress wikileaks type material.

That could be an advanced Type 2 objective. Wikileaks is hard for me to form an opinion on. I know there are things that should stay secret, but the cynical conspiracy-theorist side of me suspects Wikileaks was shut down because it was about to blow the lid on something people really should know, but that powerful interests don't want them to know.
 
Fair. Although it was actually borne out of my generalisation of the average, "free world", modern day citizen. So, if you felt defamed, you can be heartened by the fact that I was defaming the rest of the world at the same time. It was not based on anything SOPA.

Ah, coy, and playing on technicalities. I can feel a friendship coming on.

I was trying to be polite and respectful, and would genuinely like to have an idea of where people are at with their ratios of illegal and legal downloads. I have no interest in "jumping down people's throats" for matter of fact statements.

I'm learning as I go. I'll remain agnostic about it until I have formed a complete view. For me personally, I wouldn't care if the internet did die. I would care about the repercussions of it dying though. Considering the chaos that ensues when a relative minnow country faces financial ruin, I cannot even imagine the results if the "sky" truly did fall. I'm staunchly anti-piracy, and am dismayed by people who take it lightly, but equally dismayed by the thought of the cause being misrepresented and potentially used as a tool for other ends.

It's comes down to whether or not the exception should inform the rule. I'm not sure that it shouldn't, but I wouldn't mind if it didn't.

I think all these relate to the question of just how widespread is piracy? A related question is how often torrents are used for illegal purposes?

Dealing with the second question, the people I've discussed torrents with have, to my knowledge, used them only for legal purposes (myself included). I know that bootleg stuff is available via torrents, having stumbled across such sites while searching for legitimate outlets for, or information on, a product. I personally have no clue how many people use them. Nor do I care all that much, to be perfectly honest.

For the first question, does anybody really know how much of a problem it is? Allow me to (re)quote Eric Flint, E-book publisher:

Eric Flint
Online piracy -- while it is definitely illegal and immoral -- is, as a practical problem, nothing more than (at most) a nuisance. We're talking brats stealing chewing gum, here, not the Barbary Pirates.

My original, more complete, quote from him can be found here.

Now Mr. Flint was talking ebooks here, not the music industry, but I suspect he might be closer to the truth than the RIAA and their ilk is.

Does anybody have any hard facts on this?

Back to the direct question you haven't actually asked yet: I have a music library of around 20,000 titles, 100% legally acquired or close enough as to make no difference. And I have the receipts from Amazon to prove it for most of it.

I can't help thinking of the bank that hires security guards and installs security systems in attempts to stop robberies. Yet, once a robbery has occurred, the police take over. Does it boil down to illegal vs criminal here? They aren't always static terms though, as for example: repetition of illegal activity can give way to the same act becoming criminal. Speeding while driving is the first thing that comes to mind.

I hope you're not implying that bank robbery has any more relation to piracy than speeding does. Danoff's point was that copyrights and patents are similar concepts, so why the huge difference in coverage and enforcement? In particular, why should one be "merely" illegal, while the other is criminal?
 
I think all these relate to the question of just how widespread is piracy? A related question is how often torrents are used for illegal purposes?

Dealing with the second question, the people I've discussed torrents with have, to my knowledge, used them only for legal purposes (myself included). I know that bootleg stuff is available via torrents, having stumbled across such sites while searching for legitimate outlets for, or information on, a product. I personally have no clue how many people use them. Nor do I care all that much, to be perfectly honest.

For the first question, does anybody really know how much of a problem it is?

Does anybody have any hard facts on this?

I hope you're not implying that bank robbery has any more relation to piracy than speeding does. Danoff's point was that copyrights and patents are similar concepts, so why the huge difference in coverage and enforcement? In particular, why should one be "merely" illegal, while the other is criminal?

On patents vs copyright, one difference I see is that (maybe with the exception of some types of software applications), with patents there is a much higher chance of the public missing out on something useful, that may have otherwise been invented/produced by another party. It would be a shame if some guy patented the hypodermic needle, and never did anything with it, for instance. I would think that the greater proportion of copyrighted material is of a more artistic nature, and therefore far less potentially vital. Still, I'm not opposed to the idea of patent holders having more protection, but a 20 year limit for copyrighted material? Seems completely unreasonable to me. If a recording of mine made twenty odd years ago surfaced in a tv advertising campaign for a supermarket, I would feel very short-changed in both an artistic sense, and a financial sense. Even more if it happened to appear in an ad for the complete abolition of copyright law!! Now that would be brutal.

As for the bank robbery, I was using that as an example of how a company may take measures to inhibit illegal activity. Yet once illegal activity has occurred, the government and it's various arms take the reins. With copyright, it seems that laws are very much focused on punishing illegal gain (of something more than the copyrighted material itself). Do you believe that The Pirate Bay (The Promo Bay) should be allowed an unhindered existence? And should it be allowed to gain through advertising revenue? And.... if yes, is that solely due to it technically having legally downloadable material?

I appreciate your answer to the question that never was. Obviously it's not enough to sway my opinion on the general population's habits though, as you would likely understand. I know plenty of people that think nothing of paying nothing for music. Some of the same people won't baulk at the idea of spending ludicrous amounts of money on something like Candy Crush, so I recognise that it's often more of a shift in focus than a cost cutting measure.

For me, the torrent question still comes down to (again) whether or not the exception (if it is that) should inform the rule. There is a reason why, even in America, some guns are not allowed. It's possibilities and realities.

I know there are things that should stay secret........
This secrecy..... is it a form of censorship when things are kept secret? Is it a form of censorship when things are revealed on the internet, then removed?
 
On patents vs copyright, one difference I see is that (maybe with the exception of some types of software applications), with patents there is a much higher chance of the public missing out on something useful, that may have otherwise been invented/produced by another party. It would be a shame if some guy patented the hypodermic needle, and never did anything with it, for instance. I would think that the greater proportion of copyrighted material is of a more artistic nature, and therefore far less potentially vital. Still, I'm not opposed to the idea of patent holders having more protection, but a 20 year limit for copyrighted material? Seems completely unreasonable to me. If a recording of mine made twenty odd years ago surfaced in a tv advertising campaign for a supermarket, I would feel very short-changed in both an artistic sense, and a financial sense.

How do you think inventors feel about seeing their patented inventions for sale by their competitors? 20 years is plenty of time to allow copyright holders an opportunity to capitalize on their creative work without making the time period so long that the copyright becomes a drag on society. The exact same balance is made with patents.

Tell me, is having the FBI go after people who download a copy of a Jimi Hendrix song a drag on society?

Most copyrighted work is only valuable for a very short time, much less than 20 years, and then becomes almost worthless in the marketplace. A 20 year time period would change nothing for all but the absolute richest of copyright holders - people who have capitalized on their copyrighted work more than enough to spur new creative work in the industry (I'm looking at Disney).
 
How do you think inventors feel about seeing their patented inventions for sale by their competitors?

I'm more than happy for protection to be increased.

Most copyrighted work is only valuable for a very short time.

If so, should this inform the rule (I use those exact words very deliberately), and disregard the odd artist that might experience what they call "overnight success after many years"?

Tell me, is having the FBI go after people who download a copy of a Jimi Hendrix song a drag on society?

Does that happen? If we are talking anything beyond an occasional statement case as a reminder of the law, absolutely it would be a drag.
 
I'm more than happy for protection to be increased.

Well there's a good argument for more than 20 years for patent protection, but I think whatever it is for patents, copyright should follow in lock step.


If so, should this inform the rule (I use those exact words very deliberately), and disregard the odd artist that might experience what they call "overnight success after many years"?

I think it should. The idea behind copyright law (and patent law) is to allow people an opportunity to capitalize on their intellectual property. The only thing an increasing copyright beyond 20 years does is provide additional protection for copyrighted work that has already been well capitalized on.

Here's a recent example.

In my view of copyright, Star Wars would have lost copyright protection around the year 2000. Someone could come along and remake Star Wars, or make a sequel (or prequel) after that. 20 years is long enough for a child to grow to adulthood having never known a world without Star Wars. The child's creative processes were influenced by that copyrighted work. If that child wants to do a Star Wars remake, does that somehow steal from George Lucas?

According to some, yes. Lucas recently sold the rights to Star Wars (and lesser titles) for billions. They would have been worth $0 if copyright were as I say.

But yet, Lucas would have been paid handsomely for his intellectual property. Not as handsomely as if he were able to maintain his monopoly for his life plus 80 years. But handsomely none-the-less. He also has a lot of branding which others could not take from him. LucasFilms, for example, would still have been able to release a star wars prequel which many would go see simply because it was from the mind of the original creator. LucasFilms would also be able to release remastered copies of the original star wars which people would want simply because they were envisioned by the creator of a franchise they love.

The problem is that Lucas would have competition. Others could make remastered copies of the original star wars, others could make prequels, sequels, or do a series reboot entirely. In short, everyone wins.

Lucas would still have his brand, have 20 years of revenue from the original trilogy, and have incentive to continue creating. The public would have access to MORE artistic work, because the work could be more closely based on works of art from that past, and new inventors would not be stifled trying to avoid stepping on the toes of works that have influenced them their entire lives.

This is part of the reason 20 years is chosen by the way. A child is born into a world with certain intellectual products. 20 years later that child's entire view of whole industries has been shaped by the intellectual products of their youth. They invent new intellectual property inherently influenced by what came before. It is impossible to tell what they would have invented without that influence because they were born into a world with that influence.

We get around this problem in copyright by allowing artists to "sample" the works of others liberally. So much so that by the time a new song comes out, there is often a remix before you even hear about it, in some cases the remix is better than the original. In many cases I'm sure the remix siphons money from the sales of the original - despite being heavily based on the original. The amount of copying we permit in copyright as absurd, especially when compared to the world of patents, but we do it because copyright protections are too strong. That remix would be released only 100 years from now if we protected copyrights the way they truly should be protected.

The copyright system is flawed. Kylie Minogue releases a new song, but I'd rather buy the remix, so she gets gypped the record sale by someone who stole her idea and improved it a small increment. Meanwhile we worry about whether Disney gets another few bucks if someone downloads Star Wars - something that has been on sale and capitalized on for decades.

Our copyright policy simultaneously harms some artists, and creates a public demand for derivative works so strong that they'll pay billions for absolute trash (see Star Wars).

Patent law has the answer, all we need to do is make our legal approach to intellectual property philosophically consistent.
 
It's just the greedy media companies asking Congress to protect their products that they're too incompetent at protecting. I'm talking about movies and music specifically.

But what do you expect? They basically tell you that if you want to take a DVD and watch it on your iPod, you have to buy another copy specifically for that product.

Music is basically the same way. $1.29 to buy a song that is lower quality than a CD, and then they ruin CD's with compression and loudness to the point where one can hardly stand listening to it.



For movies, I think the law ought to say that if you buy a legit copy, you can break the copyright protections in order to make a backup for personal usage.

For music, I wish people would just boycott it until they lower their prices or offer a product that is worth the prices they ask.
 
Music is basically the same way. $1.29 to buy a song that is lower quality than a CD, and then they ruin CD's with compression and loudness to the point where one can hardly stand listening to it.

And that right better is why vinyl LPs offer better sound quality. Not because they're inherently better - just the opposite - but becasue they're impervious to artificial loudness. CDs and digital files offer the ability to create a much richer, better sounding sound, but sound engineers abuse their capabilities by replacing good mixing with pain instead. Supposedly, the "louder" song will be more likely to grab someone's attention if they hear it somewhere like a bar or whatever where each song is being played at the same volume, but the effect tends to be annoying instead, and radio stations apparently have their own sound engineers who apparently like to pull the same stuff - so anything that's been pre-loudified will just sound even worse while not being any "louder" than any other song on that station.
 
There is a very simple solution hogger129: buy cds of music that you like, with good recording, mixing, and mastering. How does your opinion on the state of music production factor in on the SOPA thread though?

I agree on movies. Though I have the impression that releases are increasingly including access to a digital download version as well. I'm a blu-ray snob, so I'm not completely up on it.
It's just the greedy media companies asking Congress to protect their products that they're too incompetent at protecting. I'm talking about movies and music specifically.

What would be an example of a competent and effective approach?

Danoff, how are you looking at trademarks compared to copyright?
 
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