Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA)

[LeMansAid]

What about when I share a CD with friends and they burn it (haven't done that in years since I buy digital)? Even if they aren't going to a share site they are getting the music for free, and that's the thing no matter what you do there are going to be ways, and I ask how do you fix it?

Motivations haven't changed, just the scale and net result. If I knew how to fix it I wouldn't be here telling you, I'd be busy doing rich bastard stuff.

So when Dave Grohl calls the industry on the BS they pull and other artist do a make your own price or give away music for free, they are doing this out of fear? Where are you getting that logic from if they are?

They are surely doing what they think they need to do to survive or get ahead. Regardless, it gives no indication of whether or not they are au fait with piracy. Your Dave Grohl thing is maybe a bit too vague, but does suggest that he is being debauched from more than one angle. Your point?

So one must be in the industry, surely news outlets would be talking about this, don't turn this into an elitist "well I'm there and your not so don't talk about it cause none of you even know!" I mean I'm really trying to hear you out and giving you a chance but you're not giving any cohesive evidence to sway people.

I have no doubt that I am elitist, but this is not evidence of it. You are the one that suggested that record companies are doing fine, without anything to substantiate the claim. My experience in recent times has shown record companies scrambling to merely continue existing. So far, my little is more.

This seems like back peddling and more rhetoric rather than any conclusive proof. When the RIAA says that this wouldn't work the group that lobbied for it to further control climate, I'm not filtering out anything I don't have any sympathy there are still plenty of people making it big on music and it has long been known that tours and shows are what make the money over record sales which is what pads RIAA groups. Also if you're not aware of facts how can you be sure of what exactly the truth is?

What are you expecting me to prove? I doubt that SOPA will/would be effective. The question that I raise is whether or not people would genuinely want it to be effective. The poll options are quite interesting, nothing like: "Don't agree with SOPA, but something needs to be done" as an option. Would people really not be fussed about paying for things that they have been getting for free? Piracy is now normalised, and tightly woven into society. If there is a solution, it's going to be messy.

My original statement was: "I am left astonished at how feebly people have argued against SOPA." Nothing has changed my mind in the interim. You asked me to explain: "The ugly side of piracy is all too familiar to me, and it has devastating results." I have explained, but you seem to want me to make some grand statement. All I was ever doing was putting across my point of view. So, enough of you trying to set my mandate.

Happy for you or anyone else to logically and coherently detail why SOPA be the devil though, as most of what I've read is akin to a kid stamping it's feet.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Alright, what's even going on here?

Is someone trying to say internet censorship is good?

 

[Northstar]

"Devastating results" - I will not use mine, but the most horrific official figures I know of. An artist that I knew ended up selling around 2% of what they had, pre modern piracy. That is based on official figures from the accountant, and juxtaposed with a dramatic increase in popularity. Imagining devastating results should not be difficult.

Without knowing the artist I can't say a whole lot, but it's more than likely that the album sucked, therefor nobody bought it.

There is also evidence that pirates buy more music than those who don't pirate. I used to pirate, but now use Spotify, I also have a collection of 400 CD's and growing.

 

[LeMansAid]

Alright, what's even going on here?

Is someone trying to say internet censorship is good?

Actually, trying to say that few have argued against SOPA in a coherent or effective fashion. Thank you so much for bucking the trend.

Without knowing the artist I can't say a whole lot, but it's more than likely that the album sucked, therefor nobody bought it.

... and yet another bucking bronco.

Come back LMSCorvetteGT2!!! I now realise how much I love you!!

 

[BobK]

I am opposed to SOPA for a number of reasons. Probably at the top of that list would be because it is too broad and overreaching. My blog (if I had one) could be shut down because another blog on the same site has content that somebody else accuses of being infringing. Note that the accusal is sufficient, nothing needs to be proved.

It won't substantially solve the problems it claims to address. So US-based DNS servers will be prohibited from resolving names of sites suspected of (again, note "suspected of" as opposed to, for instance, "proven to") hosting infringing content. Setting up a DNS server is easy. Even in other countries. Along which lines, I have a private DNS server on my linux box for my own use. Will I be required to make modifications to my server? Even though I do not go looking for illegal content?

My ISP will be required to make modifications to their service to potentially limit what I may and may not access. This will cost them money to implement. They will pass these costs onto me. Now tell me, why must money be extorted from my pocket to pay for your problems?

Perhaps you are unaware of this, but copyright violation is already illegal. Howsabout we enforce the laws we already have? In the case of piracy overseas, we already have a means of dealing with issues like this.

There will be collateral damage and unintended consequences. I hope I don't need to detail examples since a few minutes googling will provide plenty.

I could go on, but let's go with this for now.

 

[Danoff]

Actually, trying to say that few have argued against SOPA in a coherent or effective fashion. Thank you so much for bucking the trend.

I destroyed SOPA already by taking out the underlying principles behind it:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6541622#post6541622

Some people may not argue well against something like SOPA, but it has been thoroughly demolished.

Also, being anti-SOPA is not the same as being pro-piracy. Your posts come dangerously close to making that mistake. I'm in favor of copyright law existing, and copyright violations being illegal (civilly, not criminally), but SOPA was not a proper or helpful response.

 

[Northstar]

... and yet another bucking bronco.

I don't really get that response, all I said was that it's hard to really say anything on the matter when you don't actually provide any details.

I also like how you completely ignored the rest of my post.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Actually, trying to say that few have argued against SOPA in a coherent or effective fashion. Thank you so much for bucking the trend.

Alright, you want to know why SOPA is so wrong?

Because it does every concievable thing wrong. Piracy is already illegal, that doesn't seem to stop pirates. It's like gun control. Scofflaws will have foolproof workarounds in place within 5 seconds, while everyone else suffers. The current system already provides enough tools to deal with copyright violations. Just look at YouTube. If your video has 2 milliseconds of a WMG song, let alone the full song, THIS VIDEO WAS TAKEN DOWN BECUZ COPYRITE LOL. UMAD? Now imagine that with massive fines and felony charges for a first offense, not to mention the fact that all of YouTube could get knocked offline for days at a time every time someone posts video that has a song somewhere without first signing a contract with the label.

Same thing with TV shows. The system is already easy enough to abuse: anti-brony trolls with significantly fewer legal or moral scruples than most people got a bunch of episodes taken down by posing as Hasbro (oops, I mean Habsro) Inc. It could theoretically happen with any show, or any video that shows a clip of a show, so you're not technically safe just because your tastes are mainstream. Now just imagine that the copyright holder, not a troll team, is passing out the takedown notices, with consequences a lot stronger than a YouTube ban. Not that troll teams would hesitate to sic the copyright holders and the department of corrections on someone.

Let's Play and other gameplay videos would become too expensive for anyone except the game companies themselves, organizations like Prima and GameSpot that work closely with game companies, and an occasional super-rich powergamer, if said powergamer wants to bother with licensing and what have you.

Not to mention, even totally original content could get you a criminal record and eternally revoked firearms ownership privellages, just because of a logo or something you didn't cover up. Watch the "report" button become the "revenge" button. Is there a Porsche in the background with an uncensored badge vaguley visible? That could be a SOPA violation. Do you have a thumb drive sitting on your desk with "Gigaware" on it? SOPA violation. And if someone decides they don't like you, they could easily wreak terrible vengeance by looking carefully over your videos until they find an unlicensed logo, sound bite, or video clip, or anything else (fonts mabye?), and then reporting you.

Basically, SOPA would end the internet as we know it. The internet, as it is currently, is a marvelous platform any Joe Average with a connection can use to absorb and spread both entertainment and enlightenment. And there's a lot of power in that. A law such as SOPA, PIPA, or ACTA, which makes content creation and dissemination an expensive, laborious processes involving contracts, licensing agreements, and lawyers for everything, would take that power away from normal people and concentrate it back in the hands of the traditional media and other elites (think TV networks, newspapers, studios, other cahsed-up corporate interests) that the internet provides a welcome alternative to in the first place?

The internet is an excellent tool. Thanks to the internet, we all have our own megaphone, ours to do with as we want. SOPA, PIPA, ACTA, and whatever else the censorship brigade comes up with, will regress us to those not-so-good old days when the news told everyone what to believe and the elites running the news never had to win arguments because their opposition didn't have enough of a voice to challenge them. I think you should think very carefully before declaring your support of something that would bring about such a condition.

 

[Tornado]

Actually, trying to say that few have argued against SOPA in a coherent or effective fashion.

As opposed to arguing for SOPA by making the implication that everyone in the thread who are against it are pro-piracy, yes?

 

[LeMansAid]

Thank you BobK, Danoff, and (eventually) White & Nerdy. Justin, you may want to work on your back pedaling technique. Tornado, you saw a sequence of silly one-liners, and thought you'd add another?

Please be aware that nowhere did I state that I was in support of SOPA and....

Also, being anti-SOPA is not the same as being pro-piracy.

I certainly hope not, as I may well be anti-SOPA.

So is it at all like the US not changing to the metric system? There's a want to do it, but a whole lot of mess involved. Yet the longer it takes, the messier it becomes.

Was there ever any talk on here about OPEN, and if it would be more subtle, but still effective?

I'm also interested to know what people's thoughts were back in "simpler" times.... Metallica vs Napster. Even back then with a much simpler equation, the line seemed to be "I can't believe Metallica are suing their fans". I'm not interested in the oft-repeated "it never would have worked". Rather, what people's attitudes were when there were far less implications and potential repercussions.

Also, this one caught my eye:

Why would you sue the creators of the torrent applications? That would be like giving Ford a ticket because you got caught speeding in your Mustang.

Another analogy could be: Driving a person to a location, knowing that they are most likely going to commit a crime. The law doesn't look kindly on that.

 

[Northstar]

Justin, you may want to work on your back pedaling technique.

How is asking for clarification backpedaling?

Of course you still haven't actually answered anything I've asked/posted, so I really have nothing to backpedal on.

Until you actually clarify things, you are just some random person pretending to be a music insider.

 

[DK]

Another analogy [for suing the developers of torrent applications] could be: Driving a person to a location, knowing that they are most likely going to commit a crime. The law doesn't look kindly on that.

This may come as a shocker to you, but torrents can be, and are used for legal downloads.

 

[Tornado]

Please be aware that nowhere did I state that I was in support of SOPA

So your first two posts where you called out everyone who had been arguing against SOPA from the point of how it would hurt regular people more than anything for "selfish dismissiveness" with a big "shame on you" thrown in for good measure were just for the lulz, then?

Also:

Justin, you may want to work on your back pedaling technique.

My sides.

Tornado, you saw a sequence of silly one-liners, and thought you'd add another?

Pointing out that you seem to be purposely trying to structure your arguments in a "with us or against us" fashion is a silly one-liner?

Another analogy could be: Driving a person to a location, knowing that they are most likely going to commit a crime. The law doesn't look kindly on that.

If you're talking about complicity, how do search engines factor in? Regular old search engines like Google or Bing, which help people find illegal stuff far more easily than torrenting software does. And what about the torrents containing stuff that isn't illegal?

 

[BobK]

Another analogy could be: Driving a person to a location, knowing that they are most likely going to commit a crime. The law doesn't look kindly on that.

Yes it would be another analogy, and a pretty bad one at that; nowhere near as good as CDailey's in fact. As others have mentioned already, torrents are also used for lawful purposes. I've downloaded linux distros via torrents, for example; it's a pretty common means of distributing open source stuff.

Okay, we've answered your questions, how about if you give your answers to the same question?

 

[LeMansAid]

This may come as a shocker to you, but torrents can be, and are used for legal downloads.

Not a shocker at all, but I would be shocked if the majority of torrent downloads were not of an infringing nature.

Without knowing the artist I can't say a whole lot, but it's more than likely that the album sucked, therefor nobody bought it.

There is also evidence that pirates buy more music than those who don't pirate. I used to pirate, but now use Spotify, I also have a collection of 400 CD's and growing.

Your first line aptly demonstrates why reading through this thread was so disheartening. The dismissiveness and assumption is scarcely better than the person who justified piracy by way of deeming that their is " no good music any more". For what it's worth I did state the subjective observation of "juxtaposed with a dramatic increase in popularity".

Your own experience, I put plenty of stock in, and apologise for not recognising it. The survey in the link? Not so much. I'm sure that I would have technically downloaded something illegal at some point. Though I doubt it would be fair to tar me with the pirate brush. There are seekers and non-seekers (of music, movies, etc), and I expect most seekers to have an illegal download somewhere in their history, but does that characterise them all as pirates? I think that most would agree that the survey is more than a bit flimsy.

Until you actually clarify things, you are just some random person pretending to be a music insider.

I'm not pretending on any front, but I am some random person, yes. I told of some of my experiences. Take it or leave it, but I accept yours.

Pointing out that you seem to be purposely trying to structure your arguments in a "with us or against us" fashion is a silly one-liner?

What you did was apply the equal opposite of what you are wrongfully accusing me of. As soon as you label me pro-SOPA due to being anti-piracy, you are guilty of the same assumption process that states that anyone anti-SOPA is pro-piracy. "With us, or against us" is bad? I think it would be great actually: anti-piracy/anti-SOPA pairing up with anti-piracy/pro-SOPA. I'll declare my hand: anti-piracy, SOPA agnostic but leaning towards anti, you?

Yes it would be another analogy, and a pretty bad one at that; nowhere near as good as CDailey's in fact. As others have mentioned already, torrents are also used for lawful purposes. I've downloaded linux distros via torrents, for example; it's a pretty common means of distributing open source stuff.

Okay, we've answered your questions, how about if you give your answers to the same question?

I disagree, and never a fan of opinion as "fact" declarations.

May I ask what you think your percentages of legal and illegal downloads might be? I'm prepared for a slap in the face if your stats are surprisingly angelic. I also realise that my question could come across as intrusive and smarmy. It's most likely both.

I am genuinely not sure of what question(s) you would like me to answer, but more than willing to blather on some more.

 

[Azuremen]

May I ask what you think your percentages of legal and illegal downloads might be? I'm prepared for a slap in the face if your stats are surprisingly angelic. I also realise that my question could come across as intrusive and smarmy. It's most likely both.

I am genuinely not sure of what question(s) you would like me to answer, but more than willing to blather on some more.

So you're argument ultimately hinges on whether you deem torrents valid based on the percent that are legal?

Mind you, Blizzard uses torrents for updating all their game clients, including World of Warcraft, which includes several million users.

And as a point of curiosity, what is your nationality?

 

[LeMansAid]

So you're argument ultimately hinges on whether you deem torrents valid based on the percent that are legal?

And as a point of curiosity, what is your nationality?

Not necessarily, but I think it's fair to form a full picture.

I'm Australian.

 

[arora]

Crimes are committed in automobiles, so all autos should be illegal, is that the argument?

 

[Tornado]

What you did was apply the equal opposite of what you are wrongfully accusing me of. As soon as you label me pro-SOPA due to being anti-piracy, you are guilty of the same assumption process that states that anyone anti-SOPA is pro-piracy.

I labeled you pro-SOPA for making your first post in this thread be this:

Wow, after reading through quite a lot of this thread, I am left astonished at how feebly people have argued against SOPA. Piracy, it seems, is deeply entrenched in most people's way of life. The ugly side of piracy is all too familiar to me, and it has devastating results.

Shame on you.

"With us, or against us" is bad?

False dichotomies are generally pretty bad, yeah.

 

[LeMansAid]

Crimes are committed in automobiles, so all autos should be illegal, is that the argument?

Ah, maybe there was some confusion.

If you are referring to the analogy (it would have helped if you quoted), I am pointing to the driving as an enabling act, not the car as an enabling product.

 

[Tornado]

If you are referring to the analogy (it would have helped if you quoted), I am pointing to the driving as an enabling act, not the car as an enabling product.

So, again, how is torrenting software any worse than Google?

So you're argument ultimately hinges on whether you deem torrents valid based on the percent that are legal?

Mind you, Blizzard uses torrents for updating all their game clients, including World of Warcraft, which includes several million users.

My college used it (somewhat unsuccessfully, it should be said; and they ultimately just set up an FTP server instead) as one of the main methods for accessing paperwork and assignment templates when they were rebuilding the school intranet for a month after it got a virus in my second year.

 

[LeMansAid]

I labeled you pro-SOPA for making your first post in this thread be this.

There's nothing in that quoted post that remotely suggests any opinion I had on SOPA. You can manufacture stories in your head, but that doesn't make them any more real. If I was furiously anti-SOPA, I would be even more angry with the widely ineffectual dialogue.

 

[Com Fox]

There's nothing in that quoted post that remotely suggests any opinion I had on SOPA. You can manufacture stories in your head, but that doesn't make them any more real. If I was furiously anti-SOPA, I would be even more angry with the widely ineffectual dialogue.

Wow, after reading through quite a lot of this thread, I am left astonished at how feebly people have argued against SOPA. Piracy, it seems, is deeply entrenched in most people's way of life. The ugly side of piracy is all too familiar to me, and it has devastating results.

Shame on you.

Here you go, the 2nd one .

 

[Tornado]

Right. The Devil's Advocate, here to save the day. Of course.

 

[Pupik]

Well, the "This Is The End For The Internet" squad isn't exactly inspiring nor enlightening us, either.

 

[LeMansAid]

Much as I gave him a hard time, Justin is the only one that I've seen give an impression of what his attitudes and actions have been, and are, towards piracy and non-piracy. I'd be very interested if more would be willing to give a similar insight into their own actions and views. If we agree on the destination, then the only point of conjecture is how to get there, right?

Oh, and maybe I'll end every post with:
* I am not pro-SOPA

Some seem to be struggling with keeping this in a non-fiction realm.

 

[Tornado]

Some seem to be struggling with keeping this in a non-fiction realm.

Oh, don't worry. I get it now. I mean it's so obvious in hindsight. You enter the thread saying how awful some of the arguments are against SOPA, then make some vague assertion about how piracy is entrenched in modern society immediately after (along with the testimonials you said you also knew firsthand of for what it does), ultimately finishing up the post with a "shame on you" (and carrying the same attitude all the way to now). Of course those statements weren't supposed to be linked or anything, and thus part of a continuous thought; because who writes paragraphs like that?




So, now that that's out of the way, how is torrenting software any worse, following your analogy, than a regular search engine?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't really get that response, all I said was that it's hard to really say anything on the matter when you don't actually provide any details.

I also like how you completely ignored the rest of my post.

Basically what I kept telling him, and yet he seems to think he doesn't have to provide anything other than a solemn face and a emotion driven story that no one can substantiate. Basically we provide him with the facts and he brings nothing to prove his end.

Well, the "This Is The End For The Internet" squad isn't exactly inspiring nor enlightening us, either.

There has been a hell of a lot more information from past post and some current to be a ample argument then what this pro-SOPA user has given. Coming in and giving some pseudo-knee jerk reaction with the mind that "this will sway the masses" usually doesn't due to opposing emotion or logic that tells a person that bias isn't a good argument. I'd say his struggling music business is bias and something that has been around since the web bubble of the late 90s is a convenient excuse to blame it on. Perhaps some sort of chart that isn't by the lobbying group for these bills, that shows the music industry is clinging by their finger nails and SOPA in all it's internet securing glory will save them.

 

[LeMansAid]

So, now that that's out of the way, how is torrenting software any worse, following your analogy, than a regular search engine?

I'll go with a hypothetical. If say, 80% of downloaded torrents are illegal ones and 40% of all possible search engine results are for illegal material, does it not make torrents more of a problem, if stopping piracy is the aim? At a certain point it becomes more about having one's head in the clouds.

There's possibilities and realities, and there are many laws that deal with parallel situations. Judgment calls, for instance, are made on which knives are considered weapons and which are merely tools.

Since you haven't offered it, may I ask if you are in support of reducing and/or eradicating illegal downloads? (Music, tv, film, computer software, etc.)

Basically what I kept telling him, and yet he seems to think he doesn't have to provide anything other than a solemn face and a emotion driven story that no one can substantiate. Basically we provide him with the facts and he brings nothing to prove his end.

I later addressed it.

pro-SOPA user

.... and it continues. Show me the pro-SOPA comments.

For the record, I don't make my money in music. I am fortunately good at other things as well.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

.... and it continues. Show me the pro-SOPA comments.

For the record, I don't make my money in music. I am fortunately good at other things as well.

Context, as has been explained to you by other users. You came in hear disgusted by the majority of this thread, so it is quite a simple conclusion. You could have easily come in to the thread and be against anti-sopa people and still not sound like a pro-SOPA sided member. But if you're truly not for SOPA obviously you came in here to pick a fight and flame an entire thread by calling them out.