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  • Thread starter GhostZ
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Look them up yourself. Spring rate formulas, lift force formulas, G-force formulas, etc. they're all public knowledge. I put all of the effort into this sheet for myself, and I don't think I'm ready to share it with the entire drifting community yet, if I choose to. It's something that I take pride in because of the work I put into it and the results it produces, I would feel bad just allowing others to free-ride off of the work I did without them understanding the formulas to begin with.

To get you started some basic math about springs can be found on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_rate
 
Well I for one have enjoyed these chronicles..No I don't see too much of what he says or postulates as being helpful to my particular drifting experience, but after the manga, anime, and live action movie, I've always felt there had to be a reality show next..Ghost Z, compile these logs and send them to the producers of MTV, propose the show be called The Real World: Initial D; for continuity purposes, your stage name will be Ryosuke Takashi and the contract will only be good until your eventual entry into medical school. That is all.

I think this is a great idea and Z should work toward this lol
 
Look them up yourself. Spring rate formulas, lift force formulas, G-force formulas, etc. they're all public knowledge. I put all of the effort into this sheet for myself, and I don't think I'm ready to share it with the entire drifting community yet, if I choose to. It's something that I take pride in because of the work I put into it and the results it produces, I would feel bad just allowing others to free-ride off of the work I did without them understanding the formulas to begin with.

To get you started some basic math about springs can be found on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_rate

ok and all the variables and constants are not listed in the specs of GT5 nor is it possible to find out.

E – Young's modulus
d – spring wire diameter
L – free length of spring
n – number of active windings
V – Poisson ratio
D – spring outer diameter


once again... debunked
 
I do not use toe, though if I wanted to add it to the sheet, I would have to start measuring wheel diameter and width so I know the exact contact patch, and then calculate the deformation of that to give me the idea rear width of tread from toe. While this is something I can do, I don't know if GT5's tire model is accurate enough to include real compression rates of the gases within the tires under the temperature of the tires under friction. Because it gives me the load transfer, I can select dampening rates in the same ratios as I want the load transfer to happen (as greater load transfer requires stiffer dampening to slow the change usually) and then move the rates higher or lower based on the track. For the most part, however, I keep them at a moderate level so I don't have to mess with them for every track. Same goes for anti-roll bars and the roll rate of the car. The sheet tells me if the front end rolls before the rear end does, and what the degree of angle is rolls is. It tells me the visual change in suspension drop on the outside of the car under cornering roll, at each wheel. It tells me the ratio of weight on the inside to the outside of the car under cornering, which I want to maximize to 1 to get the greatest cornering grip. Of course, no car has a 1:1 ratio, but the higher the number the better. It tells me how far the nose dips when I brake. All of these length of suspension travel measurements are important, because they tell me for a given spring rate set whether or not I am going to bottom out the car under normal cornering. All of these are kept in ratios similar to a car I am already capable with, and can be intensified if I want to speed the car up.

This alone makes me question this magical Excel file you have (nevermind the defensive attitude about not wanting to share it, despite preaching it's usefulness). GT5 doesn't take into account contact patches; a Mini on SH tires will hit the same lateral g's when cornering as a Vette will on SH tires (at least, pre-2.08, not sure of later updates, but I doubt it'd have changed). It is a massively-tested (and proven) problem with GT5's tire physics, just one of which massively compromises your work. I'm not arguing that it's impressive, the idea of using this much math to tune a car, but there are so many assumptions being made on your part in regards to GT5's physics engine that you absolutely cannot say the math alone is making your tunes what they are.

Actually, considering you're not already using wheel diameter and width in your calculations (nevermind that they don't function how they should within the game), really makes me question this approach. There's also the small matter of your qualifier, that this program of yours' spits out values more catered to your specific style. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy then; of course you're going to think it's the best method out there when you're stacking it up to be nothing but.

Perhaps an unbiased view of the system could lend some weight to your claims.
 
Ghostz mate, as for the extremely detailed "formula's", are you like copying from wiki and posting it here? Cause to me it does look a lot like that. No offence but if someone wants to know something like that they would go search it.
 
This is exactly why I don't share my tuning method with people, it's either misunderstood or nitpicked based on GT5's lack of "realism", and in ways that are not even reasonable to apply to the document. Please, read my posts and read your own. As nice as I've tried to be, I don't think you guys are actually reading anything I type.

@SlipZtrEM: In my post I explained why I do not use formulas to tune for the contact patch, and you're criticizing that using formulas for contact patch deformation tuning would be bad, because of GT5's lack of realism in that department. You're agreeing with me, but presenting it as a criticism? I also stated that I don't use wheel diameter as part of the calculations, but adjust for it if I think it's necessary afterwards. Your post is agreeing with what I am doing, and it is not a critique at all. If anything, your post just supports how simple it can be to tune for various tires then, because of the lack of realism.

@Drift Monkey, and McGloney: Most of the formulas are very simple, and if you can't find them on wikipedia, or do not understand what those variables mean (for example, what Drift Monkey listed are components, mostly, of Spring Rate, which I don't need to calculate because GT5 gives it to you, I calculate what that number does to the movement of the car) then you shouldn't be trying to find "flaws" in the system. This is an absolutely ridiculous criticism. As McGloney says, just copying form wikipedia and posting them here is stupid. Yet, this is what Drift Monkey is apparently wanting me to do, and then not understanding it when I fulfill his demands about my own system that I simply don't want to share with people.



Is it this difficult for you guys to accept that GT5 is a simulator, based on some very simple formulas that can be applied to real physics, and that using these formulas on your own can provide some ease of use in tuning? I don't even want you guys to accept that, again, I don't care what you accept or not or how you tune your cars. But with all of the harassment being thrown my way about my own tuning method, It's getting stupid. It's as if you guys are not actually reading my posts, but finding excuses to argue with their content. It's not productive to anyone, and, as I said before, should not be in this thread.

If this thread continues to be only about unfounded, poorly organized criticisms against something that you guys clearly are not making an effort to understand, I'll just lock it and not share any of my experiences or thoughts with the community. I don't think you guys understand how worthless the continued 'argument' against me has been. I don't know what you're trying to prove, and who you're trying to prove, other than maybe a very sly way to clutter this thread.
 
This is exactly why I don't share my tuning method with people, it's either misunderstood or nitpicked based on GT5's lack of "realism", and in ways that are not even reasonable to apply to the document. Please, read my posts and read your own. As nice as I've tried to be, I don't think you guys are actually reading anything I type.

@SlipZtrEM: In my post I explained why I do not use formulas to tune for the contact patch, and you're criticizing that using formulas for contact patch deformation tuning would be bad, because of GT5's lack of realism in that department. You're agreeing with me, but presenting it as a criticism? I also stated that I don't use wheel diameter as part of the calculations, but adjust for it if I think it's necessary afterwards. Your post is agreeing with what I am doing, and it is not a critique at all. If anything, your post just supports how simple it can be to tune for various tires then, because of the lack of realism.

@Drift Monkey, and McGloney: Most of the formulas are very simple, and if you can't find them on wikipedia, or do not understand what those variables mean (for example, what Drift Monkey listed are components, mostly, of Spring Rate, which I don't need to calculate because GT5 gives it to you, I calculate what that number does to the movement of the car) then you shouldn't be trying to find "flaws" in the system. This is an absolutely ridiculous criticism. As McGloney says, just copying form wikipedia and posting them here is stupid. Yet, this is what Drift Monkey is apparently wanting me to do, and then not understanding it when I fulfill his demands about my own system that I simply don't want to share with people.



Is it this difficult for you guys to accept that GT5 is a simulator, based on some very simple formulas that can be applied to real physics, and that using these formulas on your own can provide some ease of use in tuning? I don't even want you guys to accept that, again, I don't care what you accept or not or how you tune your cars. But with all of the harassment being thrown my way about my own tuning method, It's getting stupid. It's as if you guys are not actually reading my posts, but finding excuses to argue with their content. It's not productive to anyone, and, as I said before, should not be in this thread.

If this thread continues to be only about unfounded, poorly organized criticisms against something that you guys clearly are not making an effort to understand, I'll just lock it and not share any of my experiences or thoughts with the community. I don't think you guys understand how worthless the continued 'argument' against me has been. I don't know what you're trying to prove, and who you're trying to prove, other than maybe a very sly way to clutter this thread.

Ok, we tried to tell you nicely but here's as blunt as I can be, IT CANNOT WORK. Mathematically these things CANNOT be calculated. There is a difference between having your own tuning method and using false information to describe your tuning. You can tell us how you tune but don't tell us that what you're doing is scientifically accurate.

You're claiming that you don't use trial and error which is another way of saying, "My tune is perfect". And if you do respond and say that it isn't perfect, then you miss the point of math and trial and error. Math gives you the right number once done right, there is no opinion when it comes to math. So, if in fact your math or your method using math and scientific formulae was correct, then you would have a perfect tune.
 
You're claiming that you don't use trial and error which is another way of saying, "My tune is perfect". And if you do respond and say that it isn't perfect, then you miss the point of math and trial and error. Math gives you the right number once done right, there is no opinion when it comes to math. So, if in fact your math or your method using math and scientific formulae was correct, then you would have a perfect tune.

Wrong, completely wrong, for so many reasons. Either read my posts or stop replying. I'm not going to type everything again.
 
@SlipZtrEM: In my post I explained why I do not use formulas to tune for the contact patch, and you're criticizing that using formulas for contact patch deformation tuning would be bad, because of GT5's lack of realism in that department. You're agreeing with me, but presenting it as a criticism? I also stated that I don't use wheel diameter as part of the calculations, but adjust for it if I think it's necessary afterwards. Your post is agreeing with what I am doing, and it is not a critique at all. If anything, your post just supports how simple it can be to tune for various tires then, because of the lack of realism.

What part of this:

"there are so many assumptions being made on your part in regards to GT5's physics engine that you absolutely cannot say the math alone is making your tunes what they are."

do you take as agreeing? I said it in my previous post; it's great you have a process, much like other people do when it comes to tuning, but because it's catered to your preferences, it should be of little surprise to you that you prefer the output it generates. Having an unbiased source try it would do wonders.

I'm just not sure what you're getting at here; you've been repeatedly dismissive of the rest of this section's approach to tuning, making sure to trumpet your own horn about your tuning process whenever you get the chance, but you won't share it, despite speaking highly of it? What do you seek exactly in being part of a "community" then? For that matter, why have this thread in the Teams & Meets section?

And, it's been said before, but since you were characteristically dismissive of it last time, I'll make it clearer: GTP is a single-account community. We don't care how many PSN accounts you have, but here on the site, you carry one login, not multiple.
 
To be fair Ghostz im still don't get why these formula's are brought up. Too me your trying to be fancy with it. Without trail and error you won't achieve anything. If you want to bring real aspects of motorsport into this then they use the trail and error to get the right setup for there car. They don't automatic use formula's then it's perfect. Every track behaves different to which you have research it and see how the car behaves. Just like GT but i wouldn't class it as a true Simulation and i've played more in-depth games which to me seem far more real with the setups. As for drifting in the comps, drivers will do practice runs to see if there car works.

As for that you only claim your setup is the best. As for me, i'm still going to use the good old trail and error.
 
GhostZ can you PLEASE list a tune of say the 350z for me to use.... Personally my 350 uses the monster tune and id like to compare yours :-)

Now that shouldn't be to hard, right :-)
 
As for that you only claim your setup is the best. As for me, i'm still going to use the good old trail and error.

Thank you, now you should understand why these formulas were brought up. Because I use them, and I don't ask that anyone else does.

@Driftmonkey: List to me a tune for a car that you currently feel the most comfortable with first so I can use the sheet's comparative tuning formulas, to account for our difference in driving styles, and specify exactly which 350Z you are using, if you genuinely want me to offer a tune.
 
I really would like to try this out GhostZ, if I pm you a tune for my primary Z34 08 do you think you could make a Toyota chaser handle like it? I have always loved the chaser but can never get it to feel right for me.
 
If the OP can post a drift tune for the Chaser, I would be grateful. I
have a Chaser tuned for drifting, but I will look forward to compare Ghost's tune to mine, and know the differences. I also have a '88 Countach tuned for drifting, do you think you can use the formula to produce a good tune for it ? As of now, the Countach can drift well on Suzuka East :D
 
You must first give me a tune for your Z34.

The difficulty of the Chaser's tune will be dealing with the drastically different shape of the torque curves between it and the Z34. Otherwise, I believe it can be done.
 
For Suspension:
Your approach has raised a lot of question in my mind, I'm going to start with a few around the suspension side of things. I'm not going for everything I could query (not even close) as I don't want to make this a mess.

However:


With a Center of Mass measurement and tire G-force, it gives me the load transfer under ideal cornering.
How do you obtain the CoG for the stock car and then recalculate it for a modified car (particularly one that has had any form of weight reduction and/or stiffness mods added.

GT5 doesn't give you close to enough information to calculate this.

CoG and tyre lateral and longitudinal forces are not enough to calculate load transfer at all, and its unclear what you would consider 'ideal' cornering, nor have you defined what type of corner and the stage of the corner itself.

Once again I don't see how you are going to obtain the information to be able to calaculate it.

Please don't worry about the calculations involved in vehicle dynamics, I understand they more than well enough. I am however interested in exactly what values you are using and how you are using them, as you don't have close to enough information detailed about to calculate what you claim, nor am I convinced you could even obtain accurate values for some of them.


This tells me the "weight" over each wheel during cornering, including whether or not I have lifting forces on a particular wheel.
Not with the information you have outlined above it doesn't.


It gives me the roll angle of the body during ideal cornering. Then, it takes into account acceleration and braking, and tells me all of that data again except this time it assumes first that I am turning while accelerating, and then turning while braking.
Once again you are missing a significant amount of information to be able to calculate this.

The sheet tells me if the front end rolls before the rear end does, and what the degree of angle is rolls is. It tells me the visual change in suspension drop on the outside of the car under cornering roll, at each wheel. It tells me the ratio of weight on the inside to the outside of the car under cornering, which I want to maximize to 1 to get the greatest cornering grip.
Not without knowing the suspension type used on the car (and once you fit any form of PD modified suspension we have no way of knowing what that is), which would be required to calculate the roll centers and suspension travel arcs for each wheel. Oh and all the info your missing from above as well.


Of course, no car has a 1:1 ratio, but the higher the number the better. It tells me how far the nose dips when I brake. All of these length of suspension travel measurements are important, because they tell me for a given spring rate set whether or not I am going to bottom out the car under normal cornering. All of these are kept in ratios similar to a car I am already capable with, and can be intensified if I want to speed the car up.
How do you know the length of suspension travel?

GT5 is not going to give it to you, nor without knowing the exact type of suspension the car is fitted with are you going to be able to calculate it. You are also working on the assumption that spring rates are the only factor involved in this, which would not be true. Damper values, which affect the speed of load transfer (but not the amount) will also play a secondary role in this, yet you have not mentioned them at all.


While I certainly admire your zeal to get a process that works for yourself I can escape the fact that you are either missing so much information that is required or having to guess at the values that it would make the calculation of these values almost redundant.

One reason why it may 'feel' as if its working for you (aside from the placebo affect) is that GT5 tuning actually doesn't change the fundamental balance of the car by anything close to the degree it should, nor do certain suspension changes act as they should in the real world.

One good example of this would be a car with spring rates and damper set as low as they could go, as load is initially paced upon it the dampers are going to react quickly and allow that load to compress the spring with minimal resistance. At first this corner of the car is going to act as a soft sprung corner should, however its also very quickly going to reach the limit of its suspension travel and hit the bump stop. The second that occurs you now have a spring rate that has just shot through the roof, as its effectively being 'sprung' by the bump stop and physical suspension components, with the corner of the car now having all the characteristics of a spring with rates far higher than just about any commercially available car spring (and significantly higher than anything GT5 has available). Given this limitation (and others of course exist) suspension tuning within GT5 is always going to be within a quite narrow range of parameters, with far less extremes than the real world sees.


While the Fairlady Z has nearly 280 ft/lbs at the rear wheels
No it doesn't.

I can tell you right now that if your using that assumption in your calculations then you are quite wrong, I would however be interested to know exactly how you came to the conclusion that it has "nearly 280 ft/lbs at the rear wheels"?
 
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GhostZ
You must first give me a tune for your Z34.

The difficulty of the Chaser's tune will be dealing with the drastically different shape of the torque curves between it and the Z34. Otherwise, I believe it can be done.

I dont need to give you my tune... You need to tune a chaser and put it up. Personally i dont care about gearing just suspension diff and brakes weight, turbo. Shouldnt take you 5 mins :-)
 
I dont need to give you my tune... You need to tune a chaser and put it up. Personally i dont care about gearing just suspension diff and brakes weight, turbo. Shouldnt take you 5 mins :-)

I'll say I'm generally not a fan of Ghosts posts because he does seem to have an elitist attitude, but I think you guys are being ridiculous in these attacks. What don't you understand about the fact that he said his spreadsheet takes the settings on a car you are comfortable with and, theoretically, can make another car behave the same? He does need your tune for your car that you're comfortable with, otherwise he can only pump out settings that conform to HIS style.

If you are truly interested in disproving his method, then give him your tune. He will provide you with a tune for the Chaser and, if his method works, the car should instantly feel comfortable to you and your style.
 
id like too see his 71 240z drift, as have same car and I find it Lil light in rear I am used to the feeling (RR, vw 1100) but car needs softer compound tires to even stop chasing its tail but maybe his math is correct, but id like too see the tuning build for the '71 Z though see what settings hes using.
 
I'll say I'm generally not a fan of Ghosts posts because he does seem to have an elitist attitude, but I think you guys are being ridiculous in these attacks. What don't you understand about the fact that he said his spreadsheet takes the settings on a car you are comfortable with and, theoretically, can make another car behave the same? He does need your tune for your car that you're comfortable with, otherwise he can only pump out settings that conform to HIS style.

If you are truly interested in disproving his method, then give him your tune. He will provide you with a tune for the Chaser and, if his method works, the car should instantly feel comfortable to you and your style.

I don't think it's ridiculous. We are in an open forum, the OP boasts his/her formula works but yet doesn't want to disclose it? Why come onto a forum like this and make these claims when you don't want to disclose?

I understand that it takes time and work (a lot I presume) to do these kinds of processes, but what I don't understand is talking about it, but not want to share it? I've already said that he/she should just grab a known member from this forum and prove this, nothing's happened yet so the people have called "BS" on this! Even as DriftMonkey and Scaff have said, we don't have enough information to even input, how is he/she coming to these conclusions?

What this thread was about, really?

GhostZ's experiences stalking drift teams and how his/her knowledge of drifting tunes are vastly superior to people like you and me, no trial and error, just an excel sheet!
 
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GhostZ's experiences stalking drift teams and how his/her knowledge of drifting tunes are vastly superior to people like you and me, no trial and error, just an excel sheet!

At the first moment i tot this would work like a microblog where he was updating the advances and experiments on his projects (cars) and also sharing experiences related to everything related to the GT5 drifting scene. So far so good.

But unfortunaly the thread only became a debate around people who don´t believe on his points, specialy related to tunning. The good thing is that im learning a lot about the physics in the game, specialy the chats between the Moderator and GhostZ. Otherwise, i think this is stucking the original intention of this thread.

About trials and errors or not, correct if im wrong... but in the OP when he was talking about the RUF, he also mentioned trial and error on his tunning with this car. So i think that all this discussion that an excell file with a huge amount of formulas substitute the trial and error, because i think that even GhostZ don´t agree on that.

I don´t know, the thread started so well... i wouldn´t like to see it continuously getting stuck by a single aspect of his faith in the game. I know that many people who disagreed on him said usefull things too, but i still think that this conversation is becaming a dead horse.
 
Your approach has raised a lot of question in my mind, I'm going to start with a few around the suspension side of things. I'm not going for everything I could query (not even close) as I don't want to make this a mess.

However:



How do you obtain the CoG for the stock car and then recalculate it for a modified car (particularly one that has had any form of weight reduction and/or stiffness mods added.

GT5 doesn't give you close to enough information to calculate this.

CoG and tyre lateral and longitudinal forces are not enough to calculate load transfer at all, and its unclear what you would consider 'ideal' cornering, nor have you defined what type of corner and the stage of the corner itself.

Once again I don't see how you are going to obtain the information to be able to calaculate it.

Please don't worry about the calculations involved in vehicle dynamics, I understand they more than well enough. I am however interested in exactly what values you are using and how you are using them, as you don't have close to enough information detailed about to calculate what you claim, nor am I convinced you could even obtain accurate values for some of them.



Not with the information you have outlined above it doesn't.



Once again you are missing a significant amount of information to be able to calculate this.


Not without knowing the suspension type used on the car (and once you fit any form of PD modified suspension we have no way of knowing what that is), which would be required to calculate the roll centers and suspension travel arcs for each wheel. Oh and all the info your missing from above as well.



How do you know the length of suspension travel?

GT5 is not going to give it to you, nor without knowing the exact type of suspension the car is fitted with are you going to be able to calculate it. You are also working on the assumption that spring rates are the only factor involved in this, which would not be true. Damper values, which affect the speed of load transfer (but not the amount) will also play a secondary role in this, yet you have not mentioned them at all.


While I certainly admire your zeal to get a process that works for yourself I can escape the fact that you are either missing so much information that is required or having to guess at the values that it would make the calculation of these values almost redundant.

One reason why it may 'feel' as if its working for you (aside from the placebo affect) is that GT5 tuning actually doesn't change the fundamental balance of the car by anything close to the degree it should, nor do certain suspension changes act as they should in the real world.

One good example of this would be a car with spring rates and damper set as low as they could go, as load is initially paced upon it the dampers are going to react quickly and allow that load to compress the spring with minimal resistance. At first this corner of the car is going to act as a soft sprung corner should, however its also very quickly going to reach the limit of its suspension travel and hit the bump stop. The second that occurs you now have a spring rate that has just shot through the roof, as its effectively being 'sprung' by the bump stop and physical suspension components, with the corner of the car now having all the characteristics of a spring with rates far higher than just about any commercially available car spring (and significantly higher than anything GT5 has available). Given this limitation (and others of course exist) suspension tuning within GT5 is always going to be within a quite narrow range of parameters, with far less extremes than the real world sees.



No it doesn't.

I can tell you right now that if your using that assumption in your calculations then you are quite wrong, I would however be interested to know exactly how you came to the conclusion that it has "nearly 280 ft/lbs at the rear wheels"?

:bowdown:

At first I felt a little bad to question his methods but now I see that I'm not the only one who thinks this. The average GT5 player would see these posts as being enough proof of a working method but not for me or others who are very keen on detail and specifics on math/physics when it comes to tuning.

I am not by any means a mathematician nor a engineer but I do know enough to see red flags in his posts. The way it is worded is very misleading.

Surjury, I know you're, I guess a supporter but you can't ignore the facts. Every time I address the flaws in his statements he simply says "that's not true, it works!". He has yet to produce a single tune for any car nor explain where he gets his numbers and which numbers he uses. These are all signs of someone who is purposely trying to mislead or hold back on something.

In my mind and I can see from at least 3 other members he has lost all credibility by refusing to answer questions. I've also probably been reported for raising the questions which can probably explain the moderators seeing this thread and reading through.

GhostZ, I am not here to attack you, it is nothing personal against you because I have no clue what your other PSN or GTP name is but as someone who is willing to help any and everyone on this forum, you are only misleading people with the information you're giving.
 
I just hate the fact he isn't giving proof to back his claims. Half to stuff you have said ghostz i haven't got my head round.

Then again who am i to judge. Just a trainee mechanic.
 
Is it really that serious whether or not he's telling the truth? If he lied what are you gonna do about it people???!!! Exactly. If you find it helpful try it and if you don't or you just don't want to take the time to try it for yourself then move on past the thread
 
Is it really that serious whether or not he's telling the truth? If he lied what are you gonna do about it people???!!! Exactly. If you find it helpful try it and if you don't or you just don't want to take the time to try it for yourself then move on past the thread

The AUP....

AUP
You will not knowingly post any material that is false, misleading, or inaccurate.

....we all agree to follow it when we join, the majority of the site does, those that chose not to enough times leave (one way or another).

Oh and given your not a member of staff it would be appreciated if you refrained from telling people when they can post and in which threads. As long as it follows the AUP then they can post it, and given your last comment in this thread (you know the one that got deleted and earned you a warning) I would suggest you concern yourself far more with the quality of your own posts that those of others.
 
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