TCV5 HURRY THE HELL UP thread

[shoman]

I'm down for anything..... let's get it on guys

 

[Rotary Junkie]

As for the 1300kg-1600kg, I think that this range is ok for the JDM field. But we also have to take into cosideration that this is common supercar mass, (Marcielago, Zonda, Z06, RT10, SL65 AMG, Ford GT etc). All these cars start at around 500bhp and weigh between 3100-4400lbs and having a limit set 450hp will be very restrictive and tuners will be losing out on great oppurtunities to work with these and similar platforms

When did Lamborghini get put in GT4?

Further, the Z06 would be fine seeing as it's the 379hp C5.

SL65 would go to the monster class seeing as it's a massive 2028kg stock, etc etc.

If we want to allow a chance for people to utilize these vehicles, we need a "supercar" class to keep it fairer. The "supercars" will get absolutely decimated in terms of driveability at the end of the day, and opening up the taps on power would get them further murdered in all areas, so...

That and these weight and power classes are right around where many tuners already go for. In fact... 370hp will be perfect, Mafs. So long as we go off the garage "sell" screen that is.

 

[Spec M]

. But we also have to take into cosideration that this is common supercar mass, (Marcielago, Zonda, Z06, RT10, SL65 AMG, Ford GT etc). All these cars start at around 500bhp and weigh between 3100-4400lbs and having a limit set 450hp will be very restrictive and tuners will be losing out on great oppurtunities to work with these and similar platforms.

When did Lamborghini get put in GT4?

Further, the Z06 would be fine seeing as it's the 379hp C5.

SL65 would go to the monster class seeing as it's a massive 2028kg stock, etc etc.

If we want to allow a chance for people to utilize these vehicles, we need a "supercar" class to keep it fairer. The "supercars" will get absolutely decimated in terms of driveability at the end of the day, and opening up the taps on power would get them further murdered in all areas, so...

That and these weight and power classes are right around where many tuners already go for. In fact... 370hp will be perfect, Mafs. So long as we go off the garage "sell" screen that is.

Apparently the Marci was used as a reference, and last time I checked the Z06 had 512bhp and was equipped with a 7L V8 (LS7)...

As for the SL65 its stock weight is 4850lbs but this is a tuner challenge so I would expect that we would be allowed to do weight reductions so 4400lbs would'nt be that hard of a goal to reach, and as Maf documented there shouldn't be a weight limit, note 1600kg+. In fact I think a participant should be rewarded more points/kudos etc. for developing a heavy car with exceptional track abilities oppose to its stock form. No tuner challenge I've competed in was based on laptimes alone so one can't really argue that a heavy car will have no chance or in the more harsh words you've used in your context.

As far as ''decimation'' and ''murder'', I think thats quite jumping the gun because of the simple fact we have'nt even selected a track or finalized the limitations, or rules yet.

I disagree with the statement that 375hp is what many tuners go for, I dont know what supporting factual material you base this off of. That maybe somewhat of a majority opinion in the asian 'tuner' category, but there are people who favor australian domestics, Europeans, and US domestics that may disagree.

I dont think a class segragated for just supercars is necessary. This would further complicate things. It wouldn't be necessary because believe it or not the're tuners (ex. Sukerkin & myself) here who have the skill to develope foreign cars that can hang with many of the asian imports without problems.

I think that Mafs original plans were fine.
If its not borken dont fix it, 400ps or + for 1300kg to 1600kg+ will do fine.
I say 400+ considering cars like the Monaro which may suit Mafs taste since hes from down under, and my taste which maybe an M3 CSL because of its diversity.

Looking at the tuner challenge as an international affair makes things less shallow.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Apparently the Marci was used as a reference, and last time I checked the Z06 had 512bhp and was equipped with a 7L V8 (LS7)...

Murci, not Marci for one. For another, THAT IS NOT THE SAME Z06 WE HAVE IN GT4! The C5 (read: Before the C6, before the 505hp 7L LS7) Z06 has a 5.7L, 380-405 (depends on year) hp mill backed by a Tremec T56.

As for the SL65 its stock weight is 4850lbs but this is a tuner challenge so I would expect that we would be allowed to do weight reductions so 4400lbs would'nt be that hard of a goal to reach.

Stock weight for THE VERSION USED IN GRAN TURISMO 4 is 2028kg or 4461lbs. Full weight reduction will put it around 1723kg or 3790lbs.

As far as ''decimation'' and ''murder'', I think thats quite jumping the gun because of the simple fact we have'nt even selected a track or finalized the limitations, or rules yet.

Not one of the "supercars" can manouver as well as a lighter, smaller car such as an RX7, M3, Z06, etc etc. The wheelbase is too long for low speed corners and most of these "supercars" cannot be winged, so they usually lose out on high speed cornering. Add in that the brakes on most absolutely fail miserably, and yeah, a comparable in terms of P:W ratio *insert "sports" car* will absolutely murder/decimate/kill/annihilate any of the proper "supercars".

I disagree with the statement that 375hp is what many tuners go for, I dont know what supporting factual material you base this off of. That maybe somewhat of a majority opinion in the asian 'tuner' category, but there are people who favor australian domestics, Europeans, and US domestics that may disagree.

370-375hp has become around the accepted norm for most vehicles, some go for the high side (400-450), some go for the low side (280-320), but this is right around "middleweight" and as proven in my eyes by my work with the FD and by the results shown by VTiRoj's NSX-R, it works very, very well as a complete package for vehicles of this weight class.

I dont think a class segragated for just supercars is necessary. This would further complicate things. It wouldn't be necessary because believe it or not the're tuners (ex. Sukerkin & myself) here who have the skill to develope cars that can hang with many of the asian imports without problems.

It would indeed further complicate things, but if we were going to go entirely for simplicity we may as well keep the old format and revise only judging criteria. I want to see a close run in all classes no matter what; I feel the tiered power and weight classes will make for nice, even fights for class battles between drivetrains and vehicles, and then because of the fairly close range of P:W ratios a decent fight between the top dogs. The supercars will inherently have a better P:W ratio than the built-for-class tuned vehicles, which in this format either forces them to be excluded, or tromped on anyway. If we change the maximum power levels allowed, the import brigade will raise firepower to suit and murder the so called "supercars" at their own game.

I think that Mafs original plans were fine.
If its not borken dont fix it, 400ps or + for 1300kg to 1599kg will do fine.
I say 400+ considering cars like the Monaro which may suit Mafs taste since hes from down under, and my taste which maybe an M3 CSL because of its rarity.

Looking at the tuner challenge as an international affair makes things less shallow.

Errr... 450hp is what I had already said for 1300-1599kg?

And I am looking at it as an international affair, if I wasn't I'd just say there's two classes: 900-1200kg and Skyline GT-R.

 

[mafia_boy]

The C6 ZO6 has 500hp yes. The C5 however as RJ pointed out is 385hp with the LS6, 404hp w/oil change.

The Ford GT (558hp) would be eligible for the supercar class if it gets 149Kg of ballast as it's 1451Kg stock. The Viper (507hp) gains 67Kg to make minimum weight but has options galore to get up to 600hp. Others like Mercs (eg. my E55 Black) can be de-tuned down to 600hp and get a huge diet!

Cars like the Saleen S7 (557hp) & Nardo (600hp) would be out however, they weigh 1250 & 1300Kg respectively so even with 200Kg ballast they would be still 100Kg+ underweight. The Zonda is interesting though, as you could enter one using the normal C12, not the C12S or C12S 7.3.

And don't worry about us Aussie's, all 4 cars (Monaro, SS, F6 & GT) are eligible for the upper two classes.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

LS6, Mafs.

LS1: 350hp, base Vette, detuned a bit for the Camaros
LS6: C5 Z06 only, 380ish-405hp depending on year
LS2: C6 Vette base motor, 6L, 400hp
LS7: C6 Z06's 427 cubic inch monster.

 

[Spec M]

It would indeed further complicate things, but if we were going to go entirely for simplicity we may as well keep the old format and revise only judging criteria. I want to see a close run in all classes no matter what; I feel the tiered power and weight classes will make for nice, even fights for class battles between drivetrains and vehicles, and then because of the fairly close range of P:W ratios a decent fight between the top dogs. The supercars will inherently have a better P:W ratio than the built-for-class tuned vehicles, which in this format either forces them to be excluded, or tromped on anyway. If we change the maximum power levels allowed, the import brigade will raise firepower to suit and murder the so called "supercars" at their own game.

Well thats all fine if thats how you think of it but.
But I've stated before that a tuner challenge is more about challenging myself more than anything else.
And since when has the tuner challenge been a race? Its judge on opinion and diverse driving and tuning style so how can one murder the other.
Im sorry but I just dont understand what type of competition you're preparing for...

As far as the imports go I love them, but personally I'd be cheating myself building a common Skyline or EVO since I know what it takes to build those cars and they're not much of a challenge to put together. Besides I'd be a hypocrite by going the simple route.

Tuner Challenge... To me not only does it mean to challenge the opposition in a build off, but to challenge myself and my skill. That doesn't mean im a prodigy when it comes to tuning because I have given up on some cars before...

Plus, I'd rather not be mediocre for a competition that only comes around now and then...



Yes maf ballast can play a keyrole in this build off. It can either help you or hurt you. I was also considering creating another version of the ETZ E55, but detuned from 720ps to 600ps. Another vehicle I overlooked was the Viper GTS which would fit in perfectly. I've started to look over and review cars I never thought I would be able to use in the TCs. We should take the first step in initiation and make these rules solid.

 

[mafia_boy]

I'm looking at the WPR to be a binding factor, that's why I'm trying to get the WPR's so close. If I can introduce some sort of parity between the cars through WPR, the classes at the end of it could be irrelevant except for weight divisions. Like Soprano, I'm trying to include EVERYTHING as an option, so let's not close our eyes to it all.

Just to give an example of what I'm talking about, the Spyker Laviolette is 456hp but weighs only 1070Kg giving a WPR of 2.346. Now by adding 200Kg ballast making it 1270Kg total, it increases it's WPR to 2.785, right on the limit of what I proposed with the supercar WPR of 2.785 (1600Kg/575hp). Should this car be excluded because it doesn't make the "weight" classes of what we're proposing? I don't want it to, I think we're all in agreement to get as many cars as possible to be eligible. 👍

Let's stick to WPR on this issue. 👍

 

[Spec M]

I dont think it should be excluded either.
Its rewarding when a judge tells you your fat car was more of a thrill to drive than an opposing feather weight one.
Im browsing through my garage and the numbers you have posted, so far its giving me a wide range to choose from.
I'll keep you updated if I run across something or have an idea.

 

[mafia_boy]

I dont think it should be excluded either.

So, would you agree more to a WPR restriction to allow more cars in?? We can base the classes on weight still but it would allow a bigger selection of cars to come through.

Its rewarding when a judge tells you your fat car was more of a thrill to drive than an opposing feather weight one.
Im browsing through my garage and the numbers you have posted, so far its giving me a wide range to choose from.

See, I told you it wouldn't be too bad. I want this as a sort of big final blast before GT5 comes out in the future and we get into that. 👍

I'll keep you updated if I run across something or have an idea.

Cool. As for me, I'm going to work out a definitive plan of attack for the weight classes so as many cars as possible can enter this, what we've got up is basically the blueprint now anyway, we just need to tweak it a bit more and combine it with some of the other categories from previous TC's. 👍

 

[Spec M]

800-1050 (280hp) = 2.857 to 3.750
1051-1300 (370hp) = 2.841 to 3.514
1301-1600 (460hp) = 2.828 to 3.478
1601+ (575hp) = 2.785

Well these are the regulations im building off of now as we speak, and so far im liking the range.

How much different do you think your final reg. list is going to be?

I dont think the drivetrains should be segragated in idividual classes together because this will further complicate things. For example we have cars like the base Elise, MG or the EA11R that have to be heavily modified in order to keep up with the NSXs, Protos etc, thus changing the power to weight ratio drastically. This will also spawn a less resticted field I think.

The decision on making the FF class unlimited is a gereat idea and it should stand. R3s really bring out the potential on our little front wheel powered companions.

 

[mafia_boy]

Sorry, I was getting my head cut (and soon to be shaved) so I'll be quick.

Well these are the regulations im building off of now as we speak, and so far im liking the range.

How much different do you think your final reg. list is going to be?

I'm trying to keep it in that range but with 1 extra little surprise that I've just added in there based from previous tuner cups.

I dont think the drivetrains should be segragated in idividual classes together because this will further complicate things. For example we have cars like the base Elise, MG or the EA11R that have to be heavily modified in order to keep up with the NSXs, Protos etc, thus changing the power to weight ratio drastically. This will also spawn a less resticted field I think.

Yeah, there's not going to be any drivetrain worries this time around, I think weight/WPR will be a better playing field overall for everyone concerned.

The decision on making the FF class unlimited is a gereat idea and it should stand. R3s really bring out the potential on our little front wheel powered companions.

I'm starting to be of the opinion that the FF's should stick to the WPR regulations aswell though. I feel I should still stand for them and that's why I want them to have the R3's so they have a competitive grip level on acceleration and cornering against the RWD cars but other than that, they should still have the same sort of limits.
That being said, it should be fun seeing 450hp of R3 Integra going against the S3 guys in RWD if someone goes for the challenge and thinks a better advantage will come from the R3's.

 

[PF]

So, have we ditched the idea of Vintage class?

My previous suggestion was Pre 1980/N3/no wing, but with the present format it looks at best extraneous, at worst irrelevant.

Also, well done chaps. This is a far better proposal than my last one.

 

[Spec M]

So, have we ditched the idea of Vintage class?

My previous suggestion was Pre 1980/N3/no wing, but with the present format it looks at best extraneous, at worst irrelevant.

Also, well done chaps. This is a far better proposal than my last one.

Well I was just speaking with maf earlier about organising a vintage specific type tuner competition in the near future. I'll definately keep you updated if you're interested PF. I'll brainstorm some ideas on paper first but I should definately have some ideas posted by time TCv5 is over.



Speaking of TCv5 and brainstorming, I have created a points system that can be used by judges. I felt we needed more realistic and detailed scoring compared to the previous TC. Respectfully to be honest, I always thought it was quite vague. This system should also help everyone get along better (as long as theres no bias) because its more detailed.

It will be based on a 20 category field made short and simple so it wont be too time consuming for judges to compose in their presentation. Each one of those 20 categories will be rated on a scale from 1-5, thus resulting in a maximum point scoring of 100.

This is the initial concept:

• Power Delivery (How power is delivered to ground, through suspension, powertrain and tires)
• Function (how well the car is built for its purpose)
• Braking Capability
• Turn-in
• Cornering Speed
• Acceleration
• Mid-range (Power)
• Top end
• Exit Speed (Corner exit speed)
• Stability
• Tuner Skill (Seasoned players, logically know how hard a certain car is to tune)
• Driver Skill (Distinguishes how much experience is need to pilot the vehicle)
• Fun Factor
• Innovation (For anything new or innovative about the tune or car itself)
• Rarity (The less common the car is the higher the score)
• Versatility (How well the car is at taking multiple lines through the same corner/apex and different courses)

Note: This list takes like 2-3mins to compose and the real thing should be posted in smaller font to save space on a thread. While designing the points sytem I've made it simple and convenient as possible.

This list is not complete yet, Im storming up a few more categories. Of course those explanantions wont be included in the list.
The categories without explanations are self explanatory.

For example, it will be as simple as:

• Fun Factor: 5pts
• Innovation: 4
• Rarity: 5
• Versatility: 3

Thats 17pts, except of course the real thing will be a list of 20, with a maximum sum of 100pts total.

I just need four more categories to add to the list. Feel free to throw in some inputs, because im pretty tired right now. I was in lab allday today at school testing 02 sensors, MAFS/MAPS, IATS, injectors, you name it. Plus I stayed after school to do an alignement on my car so my brain and body needs to rest.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I'll reply to the other things later on when I've slept a bit more but anyhow...

R3s on FFs will piss me off to no end if it goes through because for one, I utterly hate racing tires. For another, they bring the limits of the car up by enough that unless you're excellent or the car is tuned poorly, you won't notice much difference in setup.

Add in the comparably unpredictable breakaway of traction and well... Not my cup of tea, especially when I know I can make a FWD run right with most of the big dogs WITHOUT using better tires.

Ah well, I don't want to run this so whoever wants to can take over for me. Too much footwork and impossible to please everyone.

 

[Spec M]

R3s on FFs will piss me off to no end if it goes through because for one, I utterly hate racing tires.

Ah well, I don't want to run this so whoever wants to can take over for me. Too much footwork and impossible to please everyone.

No worries, I think maf and I are putting the pieces together.
It will be easy to please the majority as long as we keep an open mind and not be so opinionated.
I'll continue working on the pts. system and maf will continue on with the regulations.
Im sure we can develope a fair, fun, and competitive competition that most will be enthused to be a part of.

 

[mafia_boy]

I'm actually doing some testing regarding the MAIN circuit to be used for TCv5. A little different to all the others but the track is guaranteed to bring out all the attributes of all the entered cars for the judges.

Regarding regulations, there's going to be a little flavour of previous TC's all filtered through this one, basically learning from our mistakes in the past, rectifying them and improving the whole setup of running the TC format. I'll put the proposal down with Soprano privately from now on to make sure that we have got a good formula setup on the points side too. For me personally I feel that there are too many categories to go with in that list and a lot of them can be put together to make just a few major categories. For example:

• Acceleration, Mid-Range and Top End can be put together.
• Turn in, Stability, Corner speed & Corner Exit can be put together.
• Power Delivery, Function, Versatility & Fun Factor can be put together.
  
  Also,
  
• Skill can only be judged on the car itself, not on who the tuner is. If that was the case inexperienced guys automatically get an advantage.

We'll work this out soon enough. First I've got to test this track some more to make sure I've got the right choice and create a format that's fun for all concerned.

 

[Spec M]

I'm actually doing some testing regarding the MAIN circuit to be used for TCv5. A little different to all the others but the track is guaranteed to bring out all the attributes of all the entered cars for the judges.

Regarding regulations, there's going to be a little flavour of previous TC's all filtered through this one, basically learning from our mistakes in the past, rectifying them and improving the whole setup of running the TC format. I'll put the proposal down with Soprano privately from now on to make sure that we have got a good formula setup on the points side too. For me personally I feel that there are too many categories to go with in that list and a lot of them can be put together to make just a few major categories. For example:

• Acceleration, Mid-Range and Top End can be put together.
• Turn in, Stability, Corner speed & Corner Exit can be put together.
• Power Delivery, Function, Versatility & Fun Factor can be put together.
  
  Also,
  
• Skill can only be judged on the car itself, not on who the tuner is. If that was the case inexperienced guys automatically get an advantage.

We'll work this out soon enough. First I've got to test this track some more to make sure I've got the right choice and create a format that's fun for all concerned.

Thanks for the construcutive input mafs.
I'll be doing a little more tuning on the pts. system, and to make the list shorter im leaning toward making it ten categories that will be rated on a scale from 1-10 each, resulting in a 100pts max sum. Skill will be rated on the car itself, as maf stated above refering to skill level of the tune but not the tuner.

I'll stay in touch throughout today on the news and updates guys. Oh and maf my pm box is full right now but im going to empty it so I can receive your message now.

 

[Vince247]

How do you define skill of the tune?

I mean, if the tuner decides not to go crazy and do a simple tune that works perfect, is that better than a difficult tune that isn't so good after all because the base car wasn't so great. (RUF CTR2) For example, if you compare a RUF to a normal FR car the RUF tends to be much harder to tune, so needing greater skill to tune.

 

[mafia_boy]

How do you define skill of the tune?

I mean, if the tuner decides not to go crazy and do a simple tune that works perfect, is that better than a difficult tune that isn't so good after all because the base car wasn't so great. (RUF CTR2) For example, if you compare a RUF to a normal FR car the RUF tends to be much harder to tune, so needing greater skill to tune.

No. I was worried about that myself and hence why this extra ingredient has been thrown in for TCv5 to eliminate that from happening again. Handling will be a factor but not the dominating factor like previous TC's. We're spreading the scoring out a lot better in my opinion, without it dominating one area or another.

*added bit* It's as I said over at GT4TC, the scoring is going to be very different however due to a couple of things thrown in there to make sure the tunes in each class are of the highest calibre.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

man, you guys are still discussing in this thread *chuckle*

 

[Vince247]

It was dead for a long, long time. Got ressurected not so long ago.

 

[mafia_boy]

man, you guys are still discussing in this thread *chuckle*

Quiet you or I'll recruit you as a judge again.

I'm waiting for Soprano still boys, and getting more impatient by the minute. I think I'll just go ahead and set this up later today, I've got most of the judging criteria anyway and the format. 👍

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Eager to see what you've come up with, Mafs.

And it also lets me concentrate completely on my cars rather than worrying about how stuff is going

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Quiet you or I'll recruit you as a judge again.

No problem, mon. Let's do it.

 

[Leonidae]

I will follow this closely, but either of us won't participate.

 

[mafia_boy]

I will follow this closely, but either of us won't participate.

Not good enough. I expected more from you two atleast. Ahwell, the best I can hope for is that you both change your minds and come onboard.

Parnelli, offer accepted. I only need one more judge now. 👍

 

[Vince247]

Good job, Mafs and Soprano!

*Goes to the car list to pick himself a good car*

 

[Leonidae]

actually, I have 2 cars that might fit in the criteria of lightweight and middleweight classes. I might enter them once the time comes.

 

[VTiRoj]

Wahey! Finally!

Middleweight class looks perfect for my... *cough*-R.

Edit: Middleweight entry posted up. Is that the sound of a Mines EvoVI shaking in fear? Monster indeed.