Teachers with guns ?

[Bye Ya]

I just think the idea of arming teachers is completely forced and irrational. On the one hand they say, "Guns don't kill people. People kill people.", and then they want to give more people (teachers) guns.

Then on the other hand teachers are paid squat, education is on the back burner, and yet we are supposed to value these people so highly and trustworthy with firearms. Seems to me they just say whatever suits their interests.

 

[Zenith]

Having a driver license doesn't mean the person is a good driver.

Then ensure that the people who carry guns are good at shooting and carrying a gun.

Not all teachers have enough authority over the children. Why wouldn't it be possible, especially in high school, to overpower the teacher?

You mean like the cops who carry guns on highschool campuses all over the US? They carry guns openly on their hip. It's entirely possible for a student to grab that gun and start shooting, but possibility doesn't count for much if it doesn't happen.

Do you have any examples (evidence) of this occuring?

Everyone reacts differently to panic situations. Only need 1 teacher to respond wrongly to create more drama.

I've posted numerous examples of people with concealed carry permits responding well to a situation. During the Clackamas mass shooting, a 22 year old with a concealed carry permit drew his gun and was about to open fire when he saw innocent people in the background. He decided to hold his fire. The gunman then committed suicide. The 22 year old said that he was sure that the shooter committed suicide because the shooter saw him. This is an example of somebody responding correctly.

Conversely we have the shooting outside the Empire State Building where two Police Officers opened fire on a gunman in a crowded street using extremely bad technique. 9 of their 16 shots hit civilians. This is an example of somebody responding wrongly. Just because you are a "highly trained" police officer doesn't mean you can respond to a situation.

Do you have any examples (evidence) of somebody responding wrongly? I would also like to hear what a teacher with a concealed gun could do that is worse than having no response to a shooter at all.

I don't live in a country with lots of guns. If there's a police officer at a school, it's to manage traffic. So can't give you any examples or evidence.

You have the internet. Surely you can give me some examples from other countries.

I just think the idea of arming teachers is completely forced and irrational. On the one hand they say, "Guns don't kill people. People kill people.", and then they want to give more people (teachers) guns.

I don't see what your issue is.

Then on the other hand teachers are paid squat, education is on the back burner, and yet we are supposed to value these people so highly and trustworthy with firearms. Seems to me they just say whatever suits their interests.

Police officers aren't paid much either. You trust them with firearms. Soldiers aren't paid much. You trust them with firearms.

I'm not saying give teachers guns, I'm saying give them the freedom to carry their gun into classrooms for the sake of protection.

 

[Famine]

I just think the idea of arming teachers is completely forced and irrational. On the one hand they say, "Guns don't kill people. People kill people.", and then they want to give more people (teachers) guns.

No, they want to allow teachers who already have guns and carry permits to continue to be able to defend themselves from armed threats on school sites, rather than be forcibly disarmed like all of the victims at every single-location spree shooting in the USA but one in the last sixty years.

 

[DustDriver]

You mean like the cops who carry guns on highschool campuses all over the US? They carry guns openly on their hip. It's entirely possible for a student to grab that gun and start shooting, but possibility doesn't count for much if it doesn't happen.

Hasn't happened yet.

I do hope cops get personal defence training for those situations.

But cops mostly have an air of authority surrounding them. If you even jokingly try to grab the gun you'll end up with cuffs around your wrists.
If you have a teacher with a low level of authority, it wouldn't scare some students off from trying.

I think it would be more helpfull to train 2 or 3 teachers which have a high level authority anyway and allow them to carry.

 

[Bye Ya]

I don't see what your issue is.

Police officers aren't paid much either. You trust them with firearms. Soldiers aren't paid much. You trust them with firearms.

Police and soldiers kill unwarrantedly every year, and so will some teachers. To reword the phrase "humans kill humans...", I'd say, "the human condition kills humans."

And I fear for the day when schools are filled with armed teachers. We really are a sad race then. The problem is that no one wants to fix the real societal issues that lead to these things. Instead, they'd rather keep the problems and just arm more people.

 

[Zenith]

But cops mostly have an air of authority surrounding them. If you even jokingly try to grab the gun you'll end up with cuffs around your wrists.
If you have a teacher with a low level of authority, it wouldn't scare some students off from trying.

I think it would be more helpfull to train 2 or 3 teachers which have a high level authority anyway and allow them to carry.

You think that there are students who wish to take a police officers gun, then shoot and kill the officer and as many classmates as they can. And you believe that an air of authority is what stops these dangerous kids from doing this?

You are aware that we are talking about concealed handguns, right? Concealed meaning that nobody, including students, is aware that the gun is there or where it is on the person's body.

Police and soldiers kill unwarrantedly every year, and so will some teachers.

Do you have any evidence at all to support this claim? Anything?

To reword the phrase "humans kill humans...", I'd say, "the human condition kills humans."

Actualy humans kill humans, but if you know of something called a "human condition" that is killing people, let your local police know. This thing must be stopped!

They'll probably bring guns though. Sad race we are.

And I fear for the day when schools are filled with armed teachers. We really are a sad race then.

Says you.

The problem is that no one wants to fix the real societal issues that lead to these things. Instead, they'd rather keep the problems and just arm more people.

Then fix the problems. Even if we fixed these problems, do you think we'd stop buying and building tools to defend ourselves? Of course not. There are always those who fall through the cracks and it's best to be prepared and never have to act than have to act and be unprepared.

Disarming people creates problems, like all these mass killings we've been seeing.

 

[DustDriver]

You think that there are students who wish to take a police officers gun, then shoot and kill the officer and as many classmates as they can. And you believe that an air of authority is what stops these dangerous kids from doing this?

A gun, not specifically a policeman's gun. And I do believe the air of authority can make the hurdle just big enough for troubled minds.

You are aware that we are talking about concealed handguns, right? Concealed meaning that nobody, including students, is aware that the gun is there or where it is on the person's body.

How can you conceal a gun all the time in a classroom?
It's easy to do with a coat on, but a teacher is constantly watched by numerous students all day, every day. And the teachers aren't going to put it in a different spot every day.

 

[Zenith]

A gun, not specifically a policeman's gun. And I do believe the air of authority can make the hurdle just big enough for troubled minds.

"Troubled" meaning one that intends to kill many people. I think murdering others would be a hurdle more difficult hurdle to overcome than an air of authority.

How can you conceal a gun all the time in a classroom?
It's easy to do with a coat on, but a teacher is constantly watched by numerous students all day, every day. And the teachers aren't going to put it in a different spot every day.

Most people can do it in a T-shirt and jeans. The industry that makes equipment for those who concealed carry is very good at ensuring that a concealed gun is, in fact, concealed.

If you don't know how one can conceal a gun, you can use Google and educate yourself. All of the information is online.

 

[FoolKiller]

For those who don't live in an area with guns or hate them enough to not ever want to discuss them, thus don't actually know a lot about them, here is a bit of a crash course on some of the incorrect claims I have read in this thread:

Concealed carry permits require, at a minimum, a training course in the equipment, proper use, and safety. A driver's license requires demonstrating you can maneuver a car for 15 minutes.

A gun holster is not just an open hole that a gun slides in and out of smoothly. Despite what TV shows, you cannot just yank a gun out of a properly used holster. They have some form of securing device that holds the gun in place. Many are designed to also prevent the hammer or trigger from moving so as to also prevent the gun from firing while holstered. I'm sure you can get them or alter them so that there is no securing device, but you can fix that for teachers by making the rule state that the gun must be securely holstered.

Example:

And a gun can be concealed by a man in skinny jeans and a muscle shirt, shorts and t-shirt, or a woman in a short skirt. There are guns designed to be small enough to hide in a variety of places and holsters designed to keep a gun anywhere you can reach on your body.

Simple fact is, there are likely teachers that already carry a concealed weapon to work, and it is so effective that you can't tell.

 

[Pupik]

Disarming people creates problems, like all these mass killings we've been seeing.

You had me up until this point; there hasn't been a massive removal of gun rights in this nation to any matching degree that many people were bringing them everywhere in the first place. Only a few die-hard nutjobs really believe that.Guns weren't "taken out of schools" or "taken out of society". There just wasn't a tremendous need for them within all corners in the first place. Perhaps society has started to crumble...or maybe society has become distrustful of one another. Or, we've been masking and/or ignoring mental health for, well...since the dawn of mankind.

Teachers didn't bring armaments to classrooms and administrators to schools 100 years ago, nor 50 years ago, because there was little or no need to. While many workplaces have not permitted them, perhaps that's because someone was less likely to fly off the handle and do something more drastic than toss a stapler at a fellow co-worker.

I'm not anti-gun, but let's be realistic: a teacher's primary goal is to instruct and facilitate learning, not to be an overseer or function as a guard, gazing at students and watching their every move. A student with no other interest but to cause massive chaos, is going to do whatever it takes to distract the instructor and get that weapon out of their reach...if they know it's there.

That's why a few teachers I know are somewhat uncomfortable with arming themselves in a classroom setting. Yes, even some of those teachers use firearms in a recreational or for private protection. But I suppose a few of them would not have a problem with that responsibility. A trained and armed guard is a better solution.

I do think that the NRA's statement of suggesting this idea was welcome, yet kind of a weasel of a response; given that they have a lobbying track record which influences politicians, instead of being a little more proactive about the situation they've proposed. Instead, they've got to remind you to fill their collection plate, so that people don't take away your right to something they can't, shouldn't, and essentially don't really take away from you in the first place.

 

[Zenith]

You are correct, I should have worded that differently.

Disarmament did not create these problems, that would be ridiculous, but it did make the disarmed places into more enticing targets for the people who are the symptoms of the problem.

Edit: When I say "disarm" I mean gun-free zones.

 

[Bye Ya]

Do you have any evidence at all to support this claim? Anything?

Only friends who have been to Iraq and were ordered to kill civilians, as well as who witnessed fellow soldiers flying off the handle in likewise fashion. And perhaps a Google search on police brutality and shootings would enlighten you. I can't believe you actually asked that question genuinely.

Actualy humans kill humans...

Humans kill humans because human condition.

Then fix the problems. Even if we fixed these problems, do you think we'd stop buying and building tools to defend ourselves?

I never said that was a problem. You are a bit of a reckless debater.

 

[Zenith]

Only friends who have been to Iraq and were ordered to kill civilians, as well as who witnessed fellow soldiers flying off the handle in likewise fashion. And perhaps a Google search on police brutality and shootings would enlighten you. I can't believe you actually asked that question genuinely.

Only because you answered a question that I didn't ask.

You said that teachers would murder children.

I asked you for evidence to back up that claim.

You have not provided any.

Humans kill humans because human condition.

Not the same as the "Human Condition" killing people.

I never said that was a problem. You are a bit of a reckless debater.

Someone who entered a debate about the theory of evolution while not knowing what a scientific theory is, responded to a question that was never asked, then took my reply out of context just called me a reckless debater.

 

[Bye Ya]

Someone who responded to a question that was never asked

No, you're just being a jerk about it. You know what I was responding to, and how I was doing it.

And I didn't "enter a debate". I went into a thread and asked a simple question, with no agenda. Again, more of the same thing that you're doing.

Like I said in the other thread, maybe if you all could set down the ego meter a couple of notches I could ask a simple question without being bombarded with unnecessarily defensive and arrogant replies. A question of "how does the terminology work?" results in hostility. Well, isn't that just neat?

 

[FoolKiller]

Somehow you two took this from being about guns to being about each other. Not cool.

I suggest rolling that back before you all go any further. It's not good for your GTP health.

 

[Zenith]

No, you're just being a jerk about it. You know what I was responding to, and how I was doing it.

I know what you were responding to. It was not the question I asked. I didn't ask you for evidence of police brutality and war crimes, I asked you for evidence of teachers deciding to murder a student during class. You provided me with instructions to find the former.

Like I said in the other thread, maybe if you all could set down the ego meter a couple of notches I could ask a simple question without being bombarded with unnecessarily defensive and arrogant replies. A question of "how does the terminology work?" results in hostility. Well, isn't that just neat?

I don't see any hostility towards you in this thread or the Evolution thread. In both cases simple facts were pointed out.

Could we please get back on topic? I'd still like to see evidence of teachers suddenly deciding to murder students in a classroom.

 

[Famine]

Well... I can provide you with one if you like. But it is only one.

And again it's a mental health issue.

 

[Bye Ya]

Sir, no. Your hostility is senseless.

Police and soldiers kill unwarrantedly every year, and so will some teachers.

Do you have any evidence at all to support this claim? Anything?

Now first of all, why in the hell would I claim that armed teachers HAVE shot people when they aren't even armed yet as you'd like them to be? Obviously then, in the example, the only evidence you can be referring to is that of the events that HAVE happened so far: policemen and soliders who are trained with weapons, and who have killed innocent people on multiple occasions. I provided examples of those.

 

[Azuremen]

Bye Ya, your logic is fairly flawed. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Can't say I'm surprised though.

 

[Bye Ya]

Bye Ya, your logic is fairly flawed. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Can't say I'm surprised though.

The logic that humans have always killed humans unnecessarily throughout history? You really think that if we arm teachers there will never be an unwarrantedly shot student, or worse?

 

[Azuremen]

The logic that humans have always killed humans unnecessarily throughout history? You really think that if we arm teachers there will never be an unwarrantedly shot student, or worse?

Yes, because we are all blood thirsty. That is why all those concealed carry holders murder people all the time. Oh wait, no they don't.

You are making so many assumptions and jumps in reasoning it is astounding.

 

[Bye Ya]

Yes, because we are all blood thirsty. That is why all those concealed carry holders murder people all the time. Oh wait, no they don't.

You are making so many assumptions and jumps in reasoning it is astounding.

You just did the exact same thing. When did I say ALL would? Specifically, I said eventually some would. Do some concealed holders murder people? Yes, they do.

So many assumptions

Typical inaccurate troll comment from Azureman.



Do all AR-15 owners commit mass murders? No, it only takes a few to have an issue.

 

[Zenith]

The logic that humans have always killed humans unnecessarily throughout history? You really think that if we arm teachers there will never be an unwarrantedly shot student, or worse?

What?

Soldiers, whose job it is to fight wars against other soldiers, occasionally commit war crimes. Therefore teachers will suddenly decide to murder a student during class.

Police officers, whose job is often to deal with violent or drugged up adults, occasionally abuse or wrongfully kill people. Therefore teachers will suddenly decide to murder a student during class.

Let me remind you what your claim was since you seem to have forgotten...

How long will it be until a teacher gets pissed off enough at a student to just shoot them? I guarantee you that it would happen eventually, and possibly even a mass shooting by a teacher, somewhere down the road.

You claim that a teacher will, in a snap decision during class, decide to shoot a child or an entire class. This is what we are responding to.

You did not claim that a teacher might eventually build up enough hatred of a student to hatch a plan to murder them.

This is a very different scenario than the one you posted. There are numerous instances of teachers planning to murder students over long periods of time, but in this case the concealed weapon wouldn't make a difference. They bring one of the many many weapons suitable for killing a child from home.

So far Famine has found one example of a teacher snapping and becoming murderous during class.

 

[Bye Ya]

Stop doing this.

You claim that a teacher will, in a snap decision during class, decide to shoot a child or an entire class. This is what we are responding to.

You said it would be a snap decision. I did not say that.

 

[Zenith]

Stop doing this.

You said it would be a snap decision. I did not say that.

A concealed gun is only relevant if the decision is a snap decision. Otherwise the teacher would just bring a weapon from home and the result would be the same.

 

[Bye Ya]

A concealed gun is only relevant if the decision is a snap decision. Otherwise the teacher would just bring a weapon from home and the result would be the same.

There can be a buildup to a snap decision. Your first sentence is just false. Your second sentence is one possibility, but not the only one.

 

[Zenith]

There can be a buildup to a snap decision.

Then find me an example.

Your first sentence is just false. Your second sentence is one possibility, but not the only one.

Actually you're right about there being more than one possibility. The example that Famine posted had a teacher pickup a weight to use to attack the child. Never mind, they don't even need to bring a weapon from home. There are plenty of objects that can be used lying around the campus!

 

[Bye Ya]

Then find me an example.

Recurring confrontation with a student that is a buildup? Come on man, do you really think so black and white?

Actually you're right about there being more than one possibility. The example that Famine posted had a teacher pickup a weight to use to attack the child. Never mind, they don't even need to bring a weapon from home. There are plenty of objects that can be used lying around the campus!

But when people carrying guns decide to kill someone, they don't reach for a weight, do they?

 

[Zenith]

Recurring confrontation with a student that is a buildup? Come on man, do you really think so black and white?

You can either find evidence to support your claim, or you can't.

But when people carrying guns decide to kill someone, they don't reach for a weight, do they?

That's if they have a concealed carry permit. See Azuremen's comment about CCP holders murdering people.

 

[Bye Ya]

You can either find evidence to support your claim, or you can't.

There is literally so much evidence out there for confrontational relationships that result in fatal violence that you couldn't get to the bottom of all the police reports and stories. There is evidence. You are just trolling.

That's if they have a concealed carry permit. See Azuremen's comment about CCP holders murdering people.

Okay, so there's potentially one teacher murdering a student against how many cases were an armed teacher could have saved lives.

I already addressed Azureman. And you choose to look at a teacher with a gun in that situation in the best possible scenario only. What if a gunman threatens a classroom and the teacher fires, misses the gunman totally, but kills innocents? Then the gunman scurries away to kill a few more students before offing themselves. But that could NEVER happen?

You all are so black and white with this stuff.


And by the way I am a gun owner. In fact I went to a gun show last weekend.