Teachers with guns ?

[Keef]

And much harder to get a hold of if it is genuinely needed.

If a criminal knows that a particular building is full of people how could potentially shoot back he's unlikely to go there in the first place. The entire point of everybody carrying a concealed weapon is that nobody ever has to use it because everybody knows everybody else has one. It leads people to think twice before trying to take advantage of somebody.

But in the end, whether you've placed your gun in an easy to reach spot or not, the principle of self defense has been satisfied because you have the option to do so. If guns are not allowed then you simply don't have the option at all.

 

[Zenith]

That's about 1-2 seconds (or less, with practice) for a full draw. This can be done with a tucked in shirt.

And all that smart people stuff that Keef talked about.

 

[FoolKiller]

Did I say anything claiming that a) teachers who are gun owners are somehow different to teachers who are not gun owners, or that b) owning and carrying a concealed weapon affects the development of a child?

I did not.

Then explain to me how this is relevant.

And unlike that person in line at the checkout, teachers play an important role in the development of children.

Your point was made after you said a teacher spends six hours with a child. Adding in how a teacher affects the development of children, in a discussion on if teachers should be allowed to carry a gun, appears to be a implying that the two are related somehow. If that isn't your point with that sentence, then please explain it because I must be missing it.

Perhaps you should re-read my post again. Nicksfix suggested that teachers should be entitled to carry concealed weapons in the classroom, and that parents should have no need to know which teachers are carrying and which teachers are not - even if those parents are vehemently opposed to teachers carrying weapons and do not want their children being taught by those teachers. He suggested that a student's relationship to a teacher is no different to a student's relationship to someone standing in line at a supermarket, which is in no way the case.

And your point was made by showing how a child is around the teacher all day, not the relatively small amount of time you stand in a checkout line (although anyone who shops at Walmart may beg to differ). How a teacher affects a child's development has little relationship to if they carry, particularly if you don't know they carry.

Even if you take the "what they don't know can't hurt them" line with parents and put their children in class with teachers who are carrying concealed weapons or not carrying concealed weapons irrespective of the parents' actual wishes, all it is going to take is one kid seeing - or even thinking - that their teacher carries a weapon and telling all their friends, who repeat it to their parents. How would a school administrator explain the way they ignored a parent's wish to keep their children away from teachers carrying weapons?

I still don't see how this relates to a teacher's affect on a child's development, unless you are saying the parent may be prejudiced toward gun owners.

I think you have legitimate concerns, particularly when it comes to parental wishes in our broken design of a system. As I explained to Keef, these things need to be addressed. But I don't see how commenting on a teacher affecting a child's development has anything to do with if a teacher carries or not.

 

[acascianelli]

I support teachers being able to carry guns as long as they receive proper training.

 

[Pako]

Not sure on the concealed weapons permit requirements (suppose I could Google it), but I would want a teacher to have proper training and X Number of range hours logged in before they start "packing" in school. With that said, if someone was shooting up kids where my Children are, waiting for police to show up would be too late to stop the shooter. Having armed citizens defending their loved ones, property, and my children is something I am in favor of.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I think elementary schools should do what high schools do and have an officer or two, or even three posted.

Even if they are outgunned, they can at least somewhat contain the perp the best they can until backup arrives.

The benefit of this at least is that back up is immediate as the cop can radio in distress, and that is much, much faster than a panicky call to a 911 operator.

The main issue I find with teachers packing guns, is that I don't trust them with such things. A person can do all the training they want, but when the action does occur in reality, will their aim be as accurate during practice? Will they be calm or panicking?

With a Police officer, you can be sure they probably did pull a weapon on someone multiple times during their career. With an officer, they know at least to expect the worse. I doubt a teacher would while teaching math to 7 year olds.

 

[Keef]

Not sure on the concealed weapons permit requirements (suppose I could Google it), but I would want a teacher to have proper training and X Number of range hours logged in before they start "packing" in school. With that said, if someone was shooting up kids where my Children are, waiting for police to show up would be too late to stop the shooter. Having armed citizens defending their loved ones, property, and my children is something I am in favor of.

Because of the teacher's sensitive responsibilities I think I would be appropriate to require training beyond the basic CCW course as part of the employment contract. It should be optional.

 

[Pako]

Because of the teacher's sensitive responsibilities I think I would be appropriate to require training beyond the basic CCW course as part of the employment contract. It should be optional.

I would agree with that. Any teacher with convictions to want to carry a concealed weapon would be willing to take additional training. I am a strong advocate of safety and training. Accidents will happen, that's why they are called accidents but it is our responsibility to reduce the likelihood of accidents happening when we can without taking away our rights or ability to protect those rights. 👍

 

[Zenith]

The main issue I find with teachers packing guns, is that I don't trust them with such things. A person can do all the training they want, but when the action does occur in reality, will their aim be as accurate during practice? Will they be calm or panicking?

With a Police officer, you can be sure they probably did pull a weapon on someone multiple times during their career. With an officer, they know at least to expect the worse. I doubt a teacher would while teaching math to 7 year olds.

Look at the Empire State Shooting. 9 civilians hit out of 16 rounds. The Rodney King Riots had police officers fleeing the scene of riots and violence out of fear. I believe that police officers need to hold themselves to a higher standard of marksmanship and panic scenario preparedness before they can ask us to do the same. Many police officers do this, but many simply do their stupid easy qualifications once a year and engage in no training beyond that.

I don't believe that the standard CCW course and test is enough to prove proficiency with the gun. Additional training is a responsibility of the holder to ensure that they can actually respond to a scenario, not just carry the gun. The vast majority of CCW holders that I know take their training very seriously.

 

[FoolKiller]

I think elementary schools should do what high schools do and have an officer or two, or even three posted.

Rough schools in your neighborhood? The only security my high school had was doors locked from the outside, except for one front door visible from the office. And due to the location of the gym, library, office/teacher's lounge, guidance counselor office, and cafeteria you had to walk a few hundred feet from that door to reach an actual classroom.

But never an armed security of any form.

The main issue I find with teachers packing guns, is that I don't trust them with such things. A person can do all the training they want, but when the action does occur in reality, will their aim be as accurate during practice? Will they be calm or panicking?

With a Police officer, you can be sure they probably did pull a weapon on someone multiple times during their career. With an officer, they know at least to expect the worse. I doubt a teacher would while teaching math to 7 year olds.

The majority of police will go their career without firing their weapon. They may have more experience in drawing their weapon, but the experience of actually shooting at a person is not going to be very different in most cases.

 

[Keef]

I think you're confusing a cop with a soldier. The vast majority of police never have to use their weapons, though they're prepared to. Soldiers, on the other hand, are physically and mentally washed specifically to kill an enemy before they kill him.

 

[Nicksfix]

You don't think they have a right to know?

Once again, I say no, they do not need to know. Let's look at the "you do not need to know" theory. In your country, my country, every country in the world, we have this thing called Government. Are our worldwide Governments telling us citizens everything that they know ? No they are not. They are keeping things from us. We simply do not know, do we ? Why is this any different ? It's just on a smaller scale, Federal Government keeping secrets from people / school districts keeping secrets from people. I have to ask you this. Would you willingly let out the information as to who and who is not carrying, thus jeopardizing the security of our children ?

Perhaps because you may stand in line behind someone at the checkout for six minutes. You child, however, will spend six hours every day with that person. And unlike that person in line at the checkout, teachers play an important role in the development of children.

It does not bother me if it is 6 minutes or 6 hours, what's the difference ? You and your child have made contact with a CCP and it did not bother you. Why ? Because you did not know.

I whole heartedly agree that teachers play an important role in the development of children. Ask yourself this question. Does it or does it not matter to you the level of education your child gets ? I'm sure it does. Why then is it an issue with you if the said teacher (the one you previously mentioned was a good teacher and brought in Gov't funding because of their skills) has a CCP. Which would you prefer, the better education by a teacher who is CCP or a lesser education by a teacher who is not CCP ?

How would a school administrator explain the way they ignored a parent's wish to keep their children away from teachers carrying weapons?

Which of these is the better scenario ?

(A) an administrator explaining to the parents how a child got into a classroom where the teacher was a CCP.

or

(B) an administrator being forced to make a call to the home of the parents explaining the gory details about the "hows and whys" their child got shot up and killed.

.
At the time of the Sandy Hook school massacre, how many of the teachers, staff, principal may have had this thought running through their mind.....

"Damn, I wish that I / we had a gun"

 

[arora]

I'm not familiar with this source but the story seems legit, it's right in line with the convo here. What interested me was this last bit.

The city of Kennesaw, Georgia claims that crime rates there dropped after a 1982 law required “every head of household to maintain a firearm together with ammunition.”

And from the Kennesaw visitor web page.

Kennesaw once again was in the news on May 1, 1982, when the city unanimously passed a law requiring "every head of household to maintain a firearm together with ammunition." After passage of the law, the burglary rate in Kennesaw declined and even today, the City has the lowest crime rate in Cobb County.

Not solely because of guns either, seems to me it's putting power back in the hands of the people and expecting them to be responsible, I like it 👍

Anyway, here is the link, short read and worth a look.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/...calls-for-guns-in-every-home-every-classroom/

 

[Bye Ya]

How long will it be until a teacher gets pissed off enough at a student to just shoot them? I guarantee you that it would happen eventually, and possibly even a mass shooting by a teacher, somewhere down the road.

 

[Zenith]

How long will it be until a teacher gets pissed off enough at a student to just shoot them? I guarantee you that it would happen eventually, and possibly even a mass shooting by a teacher, somewhere down the road.

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim or are you talking out of your just going of your intuition?

 

[DustDriver]

How long will it be until a teacher gets pissed off enough at a student to just shoot them? I guarantee you that it would happen eventually, and possibly even a mass shooting by a teacher, somewhere down the road.

Or a student getting his hands on the teachers gun. Nice way to bypass security at the entrance of the school.

Teachers with guns or no guns, it's pretty hard to keep a random person from shooting in a classroom.
The gunner would try to take out the teacher first anyway. What are the other teachers going to do if they heard shots in another classroom?
Pretty hard to judge what to do in a situation like that.
Shoot the first person who tries to enter your classroom? That can get messy pretty quickly.

 

[Zenith]

We've covered every one of those points. You act like nobody has ever carried a gun around with them before.

I've seen about a half dozen people make the claim that a student will somehow grab the gun and start shooting as if concealed guns are retained in holsters by force of will.

I've also seen you guys post about how everyone in a panic situation will freeze up, shoot wildly, or do something else utterly ridiculous. I've posted numerous examples of how this is not the case in every defensive shooting we've seen.

Still waiting for any kind of evidence. Anything? Please?

 

[MarcoM]

Asking for evidence in an opinion forum?

 

[Brutaka]

I dont think a gun is the best way to protect school children. It doesnt seem like a life threatening situation would be at a school so often as to bring a gun. I might be wrong but arent trained security gaurds only allowed to bring guns to school?

 

[Exorcet]

What are the other teachers going to do if they heard shots in another classroom?
Pretty hard to judge what to do in a situation like that.
Shoot the first person who tries to enter your classroom? That can get messy pretty quickly.

I guess they should plan ahead, like with fire drills, rather than just install alarms and hope all goes well.

 

[Nicksfix]

I might be wrong but arent trained security gaurds only allowed to bring guns to school?

Your wording is throwing me just a little bit.

Are you meaning to say that only security guards are the ones who are permitted to bring guns to school and no one else (teachers - staff - principal) can ?

 

[Signal52]

Nah.

 

[Brutaka]

Your wording is throwing me just a little bit.

Are you meaning to say that only security guards are the ones who are permitted to bring guns to school and no one else (teachers - staff - principal) can ?

I guess what i'm trying to say is that teachers shouldn't be bringing guns to school when you have security guards who are usually trained and paid to handle emergency situations. The teachers goal in an emergency is to safely get the students out of the situation, and if this situation requires a gun, then i hope there is a armed security guard around.

 

[FoolKiller]

I guess what i'm trying to say is that teachers shouldn't be bringing guns to school when you have security guards who are usually trained and paid to handle emergency situations. The teachers goal in an emergency is to safely get the students out of the situation, and if this situation requires a gun, then i hope there is a armed security guard around.

You can always tell who went to school in large cities.

I have never seen a security guard at a school, except for in movies that star rappers.

 

[Joel]

You can always tell who went to school in large cities.

I have never seen a security guard at a school, except for in movies that star rappers.

For what it's worth I went to a Catholic school (not a private school, Ontario's silly) in a town of 15k people, and there was always a cop there. Never a security guard, but we always had a cop or 2 around the school.

 

[FoolKiller]

For what it's worth I went to a Catholic school (not a private school, Ontario's silly) in a town of 15k people, and there was always a cop there. Never a security guard, but we always had a cop or 2 around the school.

I was on academic team, so I traveled to most schools in a 90 mile radius during my high school years, and not one, not even the city and private schools in Louisville had them, that I saw. I didn't see anything like that until I went to college. But the university I went to had their own official police force on campus.

 

[Tornado]

My high school had a dedicated police officer on site at all times starting about a year before I got out of elementary school. He had his own office (as I recall it was by the gym and weight room) and everything.

 

[Northstar]

My high school had a dedicated police officer on site at all times starting about a year before I got out of elementary school. He had his own office (as I recall it was by the gym and weight room) and everything.

Most High Schools in my area had one as well.

 

[DustDriver]

We've covered every one of those points. You act like nobody has ever carried a gun around with them before.

Having a driver license doesn't mean the person is a good driver.

I've seen about a half dozen people make the claim that a student will somehow grab the gun and start shooting as if concealed guns are retained in holsters by force of will.

Not all teachers have enough authority over the children. Why wouldn't it be possible, especially in high school, to overpower the teacher?

I've also seen you guys post about how everyone in a panic situation will freeze up, shoot wildly, or do something else utterly ridiculous. I've posted numerous examples of how this is not the case in every defensive shooting we've seen.

Everyone reacts differently to panic situations. Only need 1 teacher to respond wrongly to create more drama.

Still waiting for any kind of evidence. Anything? Please?

I don't live in a country with lots of guns. If there's a police officer at a school, it's to manage traffic. So can't give you any examples or evidence.

 

[Famine]

Having a driver license doesn't mean the person is a good driver.

Interesting example given that there are fewer incidents of death per gun each year than death per car each year in the USA.