Teachers with guns ?

  • Thread starter Nicksfix
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Do you support teachers carrying guns ?


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I'll look in a bit, I have a feeling you are speaking of the 'change' to something like the right to defend yourself, they changed the tone from against gov to personal protection.

EDIT: you are talking about, District of Columbia v. Heller which established you didn't need to be part of a militia.

I can't find anything prior defining militia or why personal possession would be illegal because of lack of belonging to said undefined militia. Gonna have to show me that part. I'm doubting you but I'd sure like to see what ruling before this 2008 thing you think defined no sweeping right.
 
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It was specifically regarding the interpretation of the second amendment as a personal right to possess guns. The stance was basically "we do not agree on whether it does or does not imply an individual right, so we will not rule that it does."
 
They refused to conclusively state that there was an individual right until somewhere around 2004 IIRC, when the Roberts/Scalia etc supreme court started pushing through rulings.

The most recent rulings on the 2nd amendment (eg: DC vs Heller) do not change the government's approach to gun ownership. It is a very thorough historical understanding of what was meant by the 2nd amendment when it was first written. It didn't overturn a great deal of law, or reverse previous positions, it applied very narrowly to laws that had recently been enacted which were the most restrictive of their kind in the history of the nation.

So please do explain what you're talking about.
 
The most recent rulings on the 2nd amendment (eg: DC vs Heller) do not change the government's approach to gun ownership. It is a very thorough historical understanding of what was meant by the 2nd amendment when it was first written. It didn't overturn a great deal of law, or reverse previous positions, it applied very narrowly to laws that had recently been enacted which were the most restrictive of their kind in the history of the nation.

So please do explain what you're talking about.

All I know is that it was the first time they had authoritatively stated that "the second amendment means that individual people have the right to possess firearms." Previously it had always been treated officially as an unclear grey area by the Justice Department and the Court, even though they had functionally acted as though it did for many years.

Honestly, I don't care if people have a right to own guns, and I think they should. My real issue is that people have taken the Second Amendment to mean that people should possess guns in order to resist the government, when the framers made it pretty clear that they didn't intend it that way at all. I have a problem because things that would not affect law-abiding gun owners but that would have a meaningful impact on gun crime are held up by anti-government paranoia and a misunderstanding of the intent of the second amendment.

By the way, I own a gun. (Admittedly just an inherited Remington Gamemaster that I haven't shot yet because it's been sitting for so long I'm not 100% sure if it's safe or not. I need to get it looked at so I can go shoot it.)

I'll look in a bit, I have a feeling you are speaking of the 'change' to something like the right to defend yourself, they changed the tone from against gov to personal protection.

EDIT: you are talking about, District of Columbia v. Heller which established you didn't need to be part of a militia.

I can't find anything prior defining militia or why personal possession would be illegal because of lack of belonging to said undefined militia. Gonna have to show me that part. I'm doubting you but I'd sure like to see what ruling before this 2008 thing you think defined no sweeping right.

I thought there was something before Heller, but that might be what I'm thinking of. I'm not saying they said personal possession was illegal; just that that was the first time the second amendment was officially stated to apply to individuals.
 
You are splitting hairs, it is written to defend against government, an organized militia is the intent.

There's a major difference between an organized, regularly inspected and trained group with members vetted and appointed by the government and some random dudes with SKSs in the woods preparing to shoot the UN one world order nazi communists when the come to put everybody in concentration camps. It's akin to the difference between police and vigilantes.
 
Of course there is, I must have missed the part where I said there wasn't.

I think the point is having the guns to begin with, you cannot have an organized, regularly inspected and trained group with members without guns.

Would be interesting to see, I guess the first step would be to petition the county, eventually it would go to the state which brings up an interesting point to me. You mentioned the National Guard earlier...

I hate to brake it to you, I don't think they would ever go against the federal government, seriously. So that puts the state already as one with the fed no? I do like the fact that the state in which I reside does go against them a little bit here and there.

Anyway, didn't mean to slow chat, whatever 👍
 
There's a major difference between an organized, regularly inspected and trained group with members vetted and appointed by the government and some random dudes with SKSs in the woods preparing to shoot the UN one world order nazi communists when the come to put everybody in concentration camps. It's akin to the difference between police and vigilantes.

Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about, if all you can do is boil it down to some conspiracy handbook for fodder to make a joke, because you only can back step now due to having no real argument. Also your comment on the gun you own, shows you might wanna learn about your weapon.
 
I'd like to make a comment about he second amendment. It came into being for several reasons, but I think that one of the most important was the fact that volunteer militias were what won America it's independence from the most powerful empire in the world. The founding fathers saw that at that time well organised militias could be used with great effectiveness, and wanted to give that right to the American people. They wanted to make sure that the government could not become oppressive or not work for the people, because the people could always overthrow the government.

Today, the government has tanks, aircraft carriers, aircraft, artillery, and thousands of troops. If they wanted to, and had the support of the troops, they could defeat a rebellion. The fact is, militias today are not necessarily relevant. They exist, and in the form of the National Guard are effective and very good, but they are not really in a position to challenge the government. The meaning of the second amendment has changed, not that this is a bad thing.

Today, it is often interpreted to protect the right of every citizen to own whatever weapons they want and carry them everywhere. This may have been the founding father's intention, it would be difficult to prove it either way. However, I think that one of the amendment's main purposes is not as relevant today as it was 200 years ago. It's not totally irrelevant, but I think it begs the question "Is the right to own a gun truly a fundamental right, or a cultural expectation?"
 
The same government that warns every other government they better not use weapons on their own people, often calling them tyrannical?

The fact is, it is very possible, it's not very likely though.
 
The fact is, militias today are not necessarily relevant. They exist, and in the form of the National Guard are effective and very good, but they are not really in a position to challenge the government. .

Lots of states have militia other than the National Guard. In Michigan we have a huge militia, but it used to be borderline terrorist group mostly made of insane, gun-toting redneck and skinheads. You know the Oklahoma Bombing guy, Timothy McVeigh? Ya he was huge with the militia and the "commander" of the militia actually tried to blame the bombing on the Japanese while trying to protect one of his own.

In recent years it's become slightly more civil, but it's still mostly made of of whack jobs.
 
Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about, if all you can do is boil it down to some conspiracy handbook for fodder to make a joke, because you only can back step now due to having no real argument. Also your comment on the gun you own, shows you might wanna learn about your weapon.

I'm not making a joke and I said nothing about a handbook. The point is that a bunch of paranoid wackjobs oppose things like licensing and registration because they think an evil government is going to come and hunt them down if they are on record as owning guns, and they think that the constitution is designed to facilitate a fight agains said evil government. This is patently untrue and the Federalist Papers make it very clear that they do not intend for the Second Amendment to arm individuals for a fight against a government.

Learning about my weapon is aside from the point. It's sat without use or maintenance for at least 30 years, and may have been unused for as much as 50. I do not possess the expertise in metallurgy or gunsmithing to look it and make a determination about whether the chamber and barrel are sound to handle a .30-06 without blowing up.

Lots of states have militia other than the National Guard. In Michigan we have a huge militia, but it used to be borderline terrorist group mostly made of insane, gun-toting redneck and skinheads. You know the Oklahoma Bombing guy, Timothy McVeigh? Ya he was huge with the militia and the "commander" of the militia actually tried to blame the bombing on the Japanese while trying to protect one of his own.

In recent years it's become slightly more civil, but it's still mostly made of of whack jobs.

Those "militias" are very different from the ones outlined in the constitution, though, since it's made clear that the ones mentioned in the Second Amendment are to be formed and regulated by the government.
 
Lots of states have militia other than the National Guard. In Michigan we have a huge militia, but it used to be borderline terrorist group mostly made of insane, gun-toting redneck and skinheads. You know the Oklahoma Bombing guy, Timothy McVeigh? Ya he was huge with the militia and the "commander" of the militia actually tried to blame the bombing on the Japanese while trying to protect one of his own.

In recent years it's become slightly more civil, but it's still mostly made of of whack jobs.

Interesting, I knew that there were militias, but I knew very little about them. I could be misinterpreting this, but I think that this backs up my theory that militias have little relevance today and are not necessary for a free government.

However, I think that it also indicates a culture among a small minority who are radically pro-gun, in a fanatic way, rather than the relative logic seen, say, in this thread. I don't think that there is any need for these kinds of people running around with guns with government approval. That said, I'm sure there are many sensible, rational militias that help defend the nation and help the community.
 
Who is using the militia argument to support teachers having weapons in schools? We have a gun thread.
 
Who is using the militia argument to support teachers having weapons in schools? We have a gun thread.

It was brought up in opposition of teachers right to bear arms, so some of us defended against that notion.

Not for anyone in particular but I would suggest reading this.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2739870581644084946&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

and just for kicks

At the time of the founding, as now, to "bear" meant to "carry."

so defining the right to bear only belonging to militia, well, how many teachers belong to a militia? It depends on your definition. It's all in there.
 
I am a high school teacher and I would leave the profession if my coworkers and students are permitted to bring firearms to my workplace. If you feel that unsafe at work it's time to consider a different career. Personally I don't think twice about my safety, not even after last month's Sandy Hook tragedy. The shooting could have happened anywhere - a town square, a post office, or a shopping mall. My workplace has locked doors (ID card required), emergency alerts, and multiple communication systems in place so I feel confident my superiors have done as much as reasonably possible to ensure everyone's safety.

A guest on CNN's "Piers Morgan Tonight" (I forgot his name, sorry) made an interesting point on the 2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution - it was ratified at a time when the most dangerous guns were rifles that use gunpowder and ramrods, and could only fire once every 30 seconds at best. I personally am very much open to a rewording of that amendment or further gun control to reflect the danger of today's firearms.
 
A guest on CNN's "Piers Morgan Tonight" (I forgot his name, sorry) made an interesting point on the 2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution - it was ratified at a time when the most dangerous guns were rifles that use gunpowder and ramrods, and could only fire once every 30 seconds at best. I personally am very much open to a rewording of that amendment or further gun control to reflect the danger of today's firearms.

What does today change? If government/criminals can have assault rifles then so should regular people. Gun have become more capable, so restricting newer weapons would be a mistake.

Going back to the beginning of the thread, we've heard much about armed teachers at this point. Not as many from the anti gun side have commented on having guns in school, but in the hands of specified security personnel.

Danoff brought up a gun safe somewhere on school grounds (maybe multiple ones)

I said this:

If we do go with guns in school, limit access points to the buildings and place armed security at those access points. You basically get the same level of protection as a school full of armed teachers with less people/material.

Better or worse? Still unacceptable?
 
...assault rifles, a weapon that no civilian has any need to own in the first place.
No need? The police have them. What happens if the police oppress and threaten me with their assault rifles, how am I supposed to defend myself? And the military has a whole helluva lot more where that came from. What if the National Guard comes rolling down the road, how to I protect myself against that?

...protect the right to bear arms first, and children second.
You may not realize why the Second Amendment was put into place. Our Founding Fathers believed that all humans enjoyed three basic rights, God-given as they called it, logical truths as I call it. The first one is the right to life. They just came out of an era where the British rules civilians with their guns, and there were numerous unjust deaths by British guns throughout the period. They knew that the only mechanism the institution of government operates on is that of force, and they realized that for people to be able to protect their lives from overzealous force there must be a clear protection of the means with which to protect those lives. The Second Amendment protects the peoples' right to bear arms - arms being weapons by definition - and does not specify what types of weapons. We can argue about the original capitalization of the word Arms, a proper noun, which seems to cement the definition as any weapon. An aircraft carrier is just as much a weapon as a bayonet and the Second Amendment makes no differentiation between them.

It's as simple as that and I can't wrap my head around how people can argue with it. The damn thing says arms which means weapons. It does not say what kind, it just says weapons. It can't get any simpler.
I thought I made some pretty good points in this post from pages ago but it was ignored and I don't like being ignored so I'm posting it again. Otherwise I'll have to assume my points were flawless and inarguable.
 
All I know is that it was the first time they had authoritatively stated that "the second amendment means that individual people have the right to possess firearms." Previously it had always been treated officially as an unclear grey area by the Justice Department and the Court, even though they had functionally acted as though it did for many years.

It is actually clear from the wording that it was intended as an individual right from the beginning. That's all militias were at the time is a random grouping of people who kept arms at their homes.

My real issue is that people have taken the Second Amendment to mean that people should possess guns in order to resist the government, when the framers made it pretty clear that they didn't intend it that way at all. I have a problem because things that would not affect law-abiding gun owners but that would have a meaningful impact on gun crime are held up by anti-government paranoia and a misunderstanding of the intent of the second amendment.

Most of this I agree with except the part where you say the second amendment wasn't to created to ensure that the people had control over their government. It actually was very much created with concerns for the American government becoming tyrannical.

The problem is, gun ownership doesn't greatly help US citizens in any sort of organized rebellion against the US government. Our government has vastly more superior weapons that we aren't allowed access to (and many we probably shouldn't be allowed access to). Any notion of overthrowing our government with a few handguns and hunting rifles is nonsensical. All we could do is make it more difficult for the US government to occupy America. Militias have no hope of actually taking control.

There's a major difference between an organized, regularly inspected and trained group with members vetted and appointed by the government and

That doesn't really describe militias at the time of the 2nd amendment. Militias at that time were pretty much just dudes in the woods with some guns. They were trained because they hunted for food, not because the government put them through boot camp.

Today, it is often interpreted to protect the right of every citizen to own whatever weapons they want and carry them everywhere. This may have been the founding father's intention, it would be difficult to prove it either way. However, I think that one of the amendment's main purposes is not as relevant today as it was 200 years ago. It's not totally irrelevant, but I think it begs the question "Is the right to own a gun truly a fundamental right, or a cultural expectation?"

It is a fundamental right, very well explained in DC vs Heller - and it was intended as a fundamental right to self defense at the time. The example that the authors used in the 2nd amendment was the one they felt was most likely to be contested. The militia example was not meant to and cannot limit the amendment to that specific purpose.

The authors of the constitution didn't expect that government would want to disarm its citizens to prevent them from hurting each other. They expected that the government would want to disarm its citizens to establish a dictatorship and overthrow all aspects of democracy.

Regardless of their assumed aggressor (they assumed the government, turns out we're concerned about the people), the 2nd amendment was always intended as an establishment of individuals' ability to defend themselves against those that would use force against them.
 
I've been following this discussion for a few days and keeping to myself, but I think now is a good time to pass along my two cents. It isn't going to be what you assume. And since the topic is teachers having guns in school, and by association the implication of school shootings, I will save the 2nd Amendment talk to the Guns thread, where it belongs. Changing the debate to gun control is just a distracting tangent in this thread, and has its own thread.

Both sides of this debate need to shut up. Not GTP specifically, but everyone. The idea of armed teachers is a knee-jerk reaction, just like suddenly screaming for gun control is. The scariest thing that has come from all this isn't that a guy with a gun walked into a school and opened fire, but that we have been promised rushed legislation. You see, the killing is the wound. Wounds heal. Our reaction is the scar that will be there forever. Nothing that lasting should be hurried while emotions are high.

You see, I handle stressful situations different than everyone I know. I have my initial emotion-fueled reaction, and in that mindset I may think of a million things to do, but I have trained myself not to act on those thoughts. I switch my focus to dealing with the situation and calming down. Once I am calm, then I determine what response is needed, or if one is needed at all. I have found nothing gets solved when emotions are in control. I aim to be focused within 15 minutes of shocking news. I've received calls from executives panicked over a problem I've already solved and when someone dies I am the first to dry my tears and discuss arrangements. I come off as uncaring, but I rarely find myself wondering what I was thinking because I made a bad situation worse.

Lets look at some statistics.
According to the US Department of Education in 2010 there were 132,183 schools in the US. Of those, 98,817 were public, 33,366 were private.

The number of school shootings in the US is likely less than 50. I can't find concrete, official numbers because everyone starts counting from different dates. Most don't start counting before Columbine in 1999 (30-something). I dont like it because that wasnt the first shooting, but it was the first big one after the 24-hour news cycle began and we couldn't not hear about every instance from that point on. But, for the sake of argument, and simple math, I will round all the way up to saying 100. That is .07%.

Thing is, that is a meaningless number. It takes the value of schools in one year and is dividing it by all school shootings in the US, ever (with an inflated number too). The real odds of a specific school having a shooting is the percentage of schools in the above number struck in one year, then averaged for every year. Start adding zeros after the decimal place. We are talking tiny fractions of one percent.

What are the odds of your child being in a school where a shooting occurs? For simplicity we would divide the number of shootings in 13 years (K-12) by the total number of schools in that time period. That goes back to 1999, the year of the Columbine shooting. Now that 30-something number matters. But it is still incomprehensibly small.

So should teachers be armed? Not if you are trying to protect them from a major threat that can happen just around the corner. But the same can be said about using school shootings as an excuse to implement new gun control. In fact, they are far more likely to die in your car on the way to school, and odds are you would be at least partly to blame. And that is with laws requiring that seat belts and car seats be properly used.

Now, I know that "if even one life is saved it is worth it," but how do you guarantee that? In the auto accident example over half the cases studied had children improperly (and thus illegally) secured. A lot of those are not willful violations of law. The parents thought they did it right. We can't agree on what the right course of action should be, much less how that course of action should be implemented.

And that is where knee-jerk, emotion-fueled reactions are dangerous. To truly maximize the effect of any action taken we need more information. We need to study these cases for the signs of a person heading down this path, figure out why private schools are unaffected (changes our percentages a bit), why nearly all cases involve males, and what other correlating factors there are. We would also need to incorporate other forms of school violence to find out if/how many are the result of instability but without access to a gun. In short, we don't know the motivations behind these, how their ability to attack in a specific way (such as with guns) affects their decisions, or any other unknown variables.

And that is the big issue. I tried finding information on public vs private school shootings and I ran across an article discussing it, which had one standout statement :

In the past 45 years, of the dozens of school shootings across the country, almost all of them have taken place at a public institution.

People who study school shootings seem to agree that there isn't a large enough sample of cases -- thankfully, they add -- to say with certainty that most of the incidents happen at public schools and, if true, why.

"I'm skeptical if that's a valid enough conclusion," said Eric Dubow, a psychology professor at Bowling Green State University. "Thank God there are not that many school shootings. It's not a large enough sample size to make that claim yet."

Thankfully, not a large enough sample size. In short, we don't know what we are fixing or if what we propose will work. All anyone really knows is that they want something done, and they want it now. Not because it will definitely fix something, but because it will make us feel better.



Ultimately, the question of armed teachers (or armed security) should come down to the parents and teachers in each school. A case by case basis is the only way to deal with this because it is feel good action and until we know more we have no choice but to handle each shooting on a case by case basis.

Perhaps this statistical, logic-based look at this makes me appear uncaring. But I understand the emotions, the want to fix it. I have a daughter. I occasionally find some scenes in movies or TV hard to watch because I think about how I would react or feel. I did the same thing every parent did when they first heard about Newtown, I felt the pain of the parents who lost their child. But I knew I wasn't thinking clearly in that state.

The worst tragedy of all this is how pundits on all sides are trying to use our emotional state to push political agendas.
 
The worst tragedy of all this is how pundits on all sides are trying to use our emotional state to push political agendas.

Well I can agree with that for sure. But I think we need to take a very big picture approach to this. We need to examine that pockets of vulnerability that exist in our country - places where we have large populations of helpless disarmed individuals, and consider how to help improve security in those cases. Not as a nation, but as individual institutions. We need to do this regardless of whether we think the threat is a disgruntled individual or a terrorist group bent on religious persecution.

I'd like to see the opportunity for a gun in schools, or movie theaters, or football stadiums, or universities, or anywhere that populations are generally disarmed and vulnerable to attack.

I think people underestimate the effect that even minimal resistance can have on these cases. The reason we get the body counts that we do in these instances is because the shooters are able to go long periods of time without any resistance. Even unarmed resistance, such as the case in the Baltimore shooting, can prevent loss of life altogether.

Mostly what I want to see is empowerment. I want to see people take charge of their own security - to give themselves something to slow down an attacker until the authorities arrive. Because the one thing we know about this is that it will happen again*.



*and it will be surprising when it does.
 
I don't even directly care about the shooting, or shootings in the past, or the people that died, or how to fix this "problem". My first thought is, dang, those teachers tried but they couldn't defend themselves from the attacker because they weren't allowed to have the tools they needed to do so.

This doesn't have anything to do with teachers or kids or schools, it has everything to do with the right to life and the defense of it. I feel that preventing anybody in any setting the ability to defend themselves from the once-in-a-blue-moon violent attacker is absolutely unacceptable. This is a problem that's existed ever since the first gun control laws way back when, definitely not a reaction to current issues.
 
That doesn't really describe militias at the time of the 2nd amendment. Militias at that time were pretty much just dudes in the woods with some guns. They were trained because they hunted for food, not because the government put them through boot camp.

Hamilton explicitly explains what the militias mentioned are supposed to be in the Federalist Papers. This isn't me extrapolating, this is directly from the people who wrote the constitution in a document created to explain the constitution.
 
Hamilton explicitly explains what the militias mentioned are supposed to be in the Federalist Papers. This isn't me extrapolating, this is directly from the people who wrote the constitution in a document created to explain the constitution.


You should quote your support so we can clearly see.

the adjective "well-regulated" implies nothing more than the imposition of proper discipline and training. See Johnson 1619 ("Regulate": "To adjust by rule or method"); Rawle 121-122; cf. Va. Declaration of Rights § 13 (1776), in 7 Thorpe 3812, 3814 (referring to "a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms").

Seems to me that a group of CCP holders would fit that bill.

Also sense I'm sure you are going to continue with the idea the a militia has the right to arms and not individuals...

Three provisions of the Constitution refer to "the people" in a context other than "rights"—the famous preamble ("We the people"), § 2 of Article I (providing that "the people" will choose members of the House), and the Tenth Amendment (providing that those powers not given the Federal Government remain with "the States" or "the people"). Those provisions arguably refer to "the people" acting collectively—but they deal with the exercise or reservation of powers, not rights. Nowhere else in the Constitution does a "right" attributed to "the people" refer to anything other than an individual right.
 
Well I can agree with that for sure. But I think we need to take a very big picture approach to this. We need to examine that pockets of vulnerability that exist in our country - places where we have large populations of helpless disarmed individuals, and consider how to help improve security in those cases. Not as a nation, but as individual institutions. We need to do this regardless of whether we think the threat is a disgruntled individual or a terrorist group bent on religious persecution.
After the last 10 years I get nervous when people talk about security. After whatever happens in response now fails to prevent bloodshed, and it will eventually fail, the next step will be strict. How long before we go from allowing teachers to carry or having moonlighting or retired police standing guard at every school the ESA (Education Security Administration) patting down or scanning every individual to walk into a school? The problem is vulnerabilities will always exist and more often than not the resulting action is not something that supports liberty. Honestly, I am willing to bet we are a short time away from drones patrolling school grounds. And that will be after they take more guns away.

Illinois is already trying to turn current law-abiding gun owners into tomorrow's criminals.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...th-gun-control-bills-firearms-group-warns-no/

I would rather take the 0.0000X% chance that whatever school my daughter goes to will be attacked than open that door. I should add a few 0s, since we are looking at a private school.

And no matter what we do, the difference between public vs private must be looked at. I have a few thoughts, but that is all they are. Just personal bias.

This doesn't have anything to do with teachers or kids or schools, it has everything to do with the right to life and the defense of it. I feel that preventing anybody in any setting the ability to defend themselves from the once-in-a-blue-moon violent attacker is absolutely unacceptable. This is a problem that's existed ever since the first gun control laws way back when, definitely not a reaction to current issues.
But there are other circumstances at play here. Some parents want their kids to go to school in a gun free zone. As parents, they have a right to say how their child is raised and what environment they consider safe. And since we don't have school choice any decision will be creating problems. That is why I say that the guns in school decision needs to be made between teachers and parents of each school or district. If we ever get school choice, then we can let the schools themselves make the call and parents can then factor that into their decision of where to send their kids.

Like most issues of liberty, this is an issue that cannot be addressed until we fix a long list of others.

Maybe you should be a grief counsellor for the parents of the innoncent kids that get shot dead.
I have a good shoulder for crying on, but don't expect me to say something comforting. It comes out awkward and forced sounding. I'm just not good in those kinds of situations.
 
Hamilton explicitly explains what the militias mentioned are supposed to be in the Federalist Papers. This isn't me extrapolating, this is directly from the people who wrote the constitution in a document created to explain the constitution.
Alexander Hamilton was also a fan of big government, supporting the idea of a central bank, government control over money, unfair trade via tariffs, and allowing the government to exercise implied Constitutional powers despite the 10th Amendment explicitly forbidding it. Hamilton supported Keynesian economics before John Keynes was even alive, much less invented the theory. Alexander Hamilton is 90% a terrible resource for any Constitutional issue unless you're a big-government progressive working toward the downfall of society.
 
After the last 10 years I get nervous when people talk about security. After whatever happens in response now fails to prevent bloodshed, and it will eventually fail, the next step will be strict. How long before we go from allowing teachers to carry or having moonlighting or retired police standing guard at every school the ESA (Education Security Administration) patting down or scanning every individual to walk into a school? The problem is vulnerabilities will always exist and more often than not the resulting action is not something that supports liberty. Honestly, I am willing to bet we are a short time away from drones patrolling school grounds. And that will be after they take more guns away.

A compelling argument for sure. But this...


But there are other circumstances at play here. Some parents want their kids to go to school in a gun free zone. As parents, they have a right to say how their child is raised and what environment they consider safe. And since we don't have school choice any decision will be creating problems. That is why I say that the guns in school decision needs to be made between teachers and parents of each school or district. If we ever get school choice, then we can let the schools themselves make the call and parents can then factor that into their decision of where to send their kids.

Is spot on. I think I've ran on and on about my thoughts regarding the current system, in this thread and others already :embarrassed:
 
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