Teachers with guns ?

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Do you support teachers carrying guns ?


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there's little evidence to suggest a firearm locked in the principal's office will make this situation worse.
What good is it going to do anyone there?

The entire argument in favour of having guns in schools hinges on the idea that they could be used as a deterrent - if not to stop - people like Adam Lanza. That's not going to happen if the deterrent is locked up in the principal's office.

There's a school I worked at where the principal's office is at the western end of the school, and the science faculty is at the eastern end. They're in different buildings on different floors, and the most direct route between the two is a labyrinth of corridors and staircases. This is mostly because of the shape of the land that the school is built on; it sounds like a horrible design, but it actually makes the most of the space available. The point is that if someone were to pull a gun in the science faculty, then what good is the deterrent when it is locked up in the principal's office on the other side of the school and help is at least five minutes away?
 
Did you just support the point you've been arguing against for the past 6 pages? :odd:

But hey, at least you are seeing things from our perspective, so that is a nice change of pace.
 
I see you didn't bother to read Famine's post or you just take his word as fact, but when I echo it you need sources.

Oh fine.
They clearly explain how they considered the data from government reports.

I wasn't doubting you, just wanted to compare is all.

At the time of posting I had yet to get to Famine's post.

Thanks for the graph and links. I was however hoping you would link me to something that was more relevant to your claim:

If you'd done your research, you'd also see the rate of violent crime has steadily increased since the UK basically banned guns.

Thanks anyway.
 
Did you just support the point you've been arguing against for the past 6 pages?
Nope. Just pointing out that if you're going to insist on having guns in schools, then locking them in the principal's office does nothing when you really need them. You might as well put them on the moon otherwise.

Let me ask you this, though: how would you expect school administrators to organise classes based on which teachers, students and parents are comfortable with guns in schools and which are not, whilst at the same time keeping the identitiy of any teacher with a concealed weapon confidential (which I assume would be one of the safety precautions you would take)?

This is my problem with laying out all these statistics about violent crime and gun ownership and everything else that has been put forward: some people are relying so heavily on these statistics to prove their case that they've forgotten that statistics only exist on paper. It's a case of "it has to be a good idea because the statistics say so", totally forgetting the way that actually introducing guns to schools might affect the people in the school. What do you propose is done about the kid who is afraid of his teacher, and is now terrified that that teacher has a gun? How do you propose to deal with teachers who refuse to handle or carry guns? How do you address parents who don't want their children in an environment where there are live weapons? How do you handle the kids who abuse the system to try and get their teachers in trouble? And - a question which has yet to be answered satisfactorily - what do you do about the kid who decides to try and get a gun away from a teacher?

All these argument seem to be weighted in favour of "gun ownership reduces violent crime", but none of them seem to take into account the impact of actual gun ownership in this environment.
 
Nope. Just pointing out that if you're going to insist on having guns in schools, then locking them in the principal's office does nothing when you really need them. You might as well put them on the moon otherwise.

Putting them in the prinicpals office would be about as effective as carrying it on your unloaded. What good does it do when you really need it asap and have to load it first?
 
I'm aware this wasn't directed at me, but hey...

And yet according to the Crime Survey for England and Wales estimates of violent crime are now around half the level seen in 1995 and have been dropping almost year on year since then.

Also according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS) crime is down by a third over the last decade.

I'm interested in your research. Perhaps you could supply a link or two?

I've pulled the ONS data from a BBC page and edited it a little.

murdersuk.jpg

I've added on the pink bars so that you can see the effect Shipman and 7/7 had on things. Of course the reality of Shipman is that he killed over the course of 30 years, so you can probably just add 3 to 6 murders for every year prior to 2002/3 (quick note - UK crime data is June to July, not calendar year) and disregard his pink bar, but 7/7 were murders and occurred in the UK.

I've added a red bar for 1997. That was the year after Thomas Hamilton went into Dunblane Primary and shot 17 kids and staff (these numbers are not recorded in the graph - the ONS covers England and Wales and the crime occurred in Scotland), but it was the year handguns were banned. I've added a red line to show that level across the chart.

The chart also only shows murders, not homicides - neither manslaughter nor suicide are not counted. The method is not shown either.


The immediate effect of banning handguns and the amnesty that lead to 23,000 firearms (about 5% of the total held today) being surrendered is a spike in murder. And it's quite the spike too - from only one previous deadlier year than 1997 (the year after the shocking crime that shocked everyone except murderers) in the entire of recorded history, every following year for a decade was deadlier. In 2003 two schoolgirls were shot dead in Birmingham and 43,000 more guns were surrendered - the following year was, Shipman adjusted, the deadliest year on record. The spike is such that, even with 15 previous less bloody years and four subsequent less bloody years (19 of the 33 years recorded there), the graph average is still equal to 1997 at approximately 690 murders per annum...

The graph also has an interesting start point. 1979 and 1980 were the bloodiest years to date at that point. 1978 was 10% lower. 1977 was 30% lower. It's also worth noting that this is raw numbers, not population adjusted - but the figures are broadly the same at about 11/1 million population in 1980 rising steadily to 12/million in 1997 (9% increase, 17 years) and immediately spiking to 15/million by 2001 (25% increase, 4 years).

Incidentally I didn't notice that the last data point I previously had was 2008 (at about 12/million), so I was in error when I said there'd not been a less bloody year than 1997 since the handgun ban - 2009-12 were all less bloody.


I can generate a similar graph going back to 1967 - but it'll take some time - and you'll see the same thing after the first piece of gun legislation in 1968.
if you're going to insist on having guns in schools
Which is, fortunately, not the point.

The point is to remove schools from the list of places where people who have a permit to carry firearms in public may not carry firearms. Not forcing schools to have guns on site, not forcing teachers to have guns, just treating public schools like any other public place where carry permits allow holders to carry their guns.
 
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How does that data look if it's based on a per population basis?

The UK population changed by about 2% between 1997 and the immediate spike through 2004. Overall, less than 7% increase today. The increases in murders on Famine's graph are still much greater than the increase in population for the massive spike following 1997.
 
What good is it going to do anyone there?

The entire argument in favour of having guns in schools hinges on the idea that they could be used as a deterrent - if not to stop - people like Adam Lanza. That's not going to happen if the deterrent is locked up in the principal's office.

The point is that if someone were to pull a gun in the science faculty, then what good is the deterrent when it is locked up in the principal's office on the other side of the school and help is at least five minutes away?

Hence why the States are implementing the right for teachers to carry. It will obviously cut down on reaction time, regardless if the gun is on the other end of the school. It's about timing. The timing in this type of situation is critical. Please, read the OP and see what my kid had to say about timing.

Let me ask you this, though: how would you expect school administrators to organise classes based on which teachers, students and parents are comfortable with guns in schools and which are not, whilst at the same time keeping the identitiy of any teacher with a concealed weapon confidential (which I assume would be one of the safety precautions you would take)?

How do you address parents who don't want their children in an environment where there are live weapons?


You organize the classes by use of a school board meeting. From this, the Board can weed out which teachers as far as who can and cannot carry. As far as parents go, after the board has had it's meeting, you then present it to the public via a town hall meeting. As far as keeping the identity of any teacher with a concealed weapon confidential, you answered that in your own words - "I assume would be one of the safety precautions you would take". They need not know. It's called chance. One may not like it, but why risk the security involved as to whom is carrying.

What do you propose is done about the kid who is afraid of his teacher, and is now terrified that that teacher has a gun?

You talk to your kid. Something that is lacking in this country. You simply explain to him / her that the teacher is there to protect them,it called re-assuring your child. You get them to respect the teacher. Let them know the teacher is their best friend in the course of a school day. Are kids afraid of police because they have guns. No, they know that the policeman is their friend. Which is what has to be instilled into the childs mind about teachers. The teacher is their friend.

How do you handle the kids who abuse the system to try and get their teachers in trouble?

How often have you heard of such a case ? It's minimal, at best.

How do you propose to deal with teachers who refuse to handle or carry guns?

There is no matter of dealing with teachers who may not want to carry. Nothing here is forcing them to carry. First off, it is their choice. Just because the States are implementing the right to carry does not say that it is mandatory for all teachers to carry.

And - a question which has yet to be answered satisfactorily - what do you do about the kid who decides to try and get a gun away from a teacher?

Do you really think that if a kid knows that a teacher is packing the he would even attempt to fool with them ? Given the teacher in question, if the teacher is an ex Marine,retired Army, Navy, Air Force veteran, part time law enforcement, Reserve Guard, chances are good, but not ruling out, that the kid would not be that stupid to even admire such a thought of tangling with one of these type. Ok, so the teacher is a 60 year old frail lady in her prime. Sure, the assailant would probably think lighter about pulling some crap with her. He could (more than likely) overpower her. But would you give a gun to a teacher in which you know could be easily overpowered ? This is where the weeding out process takes effect.
 
You organize the classes by use of a school board meeting. From this, the Board can weed out which teachers as far as who can and cannot carry.
Why should that be a job requirement? Shouldn't students be taught by the best teachers, rather than the teachers who are willing to carry weapons on them? How are you going to explain the way you hired a poor teacher who was willing to carry a weapon instead of a good teacher who was not?

As far as parents go, after the board has had it's meeting, you then present it to the public via a town hall meeting. As far as keeping the identity of any teacher with a concealed weapon confidential, you answered that in your own words - "I assume would be one of the safety precautions you would take". They need not know. It's called chance. One may not like it, but why risk the security involved as to whom is carrying.
Except that parents who are not comfortable with teacher carrying weapons would no doubt insist that their children be taught by teachers who do not carry weapons. It wouldn't take long to work out which teachers are carrying and which are not.

You get them to respect the teacher. Let them know the teacher is their best friend in the course of a school day.
You should come into my classroom some time. I'll introduce you to a group of fiteen year-old boys who hate school, resent any male influence in their life, and are generally stubborn, obstinate and uncooperative.

Your plan sounds great in theory. The problem is that it only works once guns have been in schools for several years and everyone is used to the idea. In the meantime, it's a problem because students don't value school as an educational experience. They value it as a social one, especially in the public system.

How often have you heard of such a case ? It's minimal, at best.
Like I said, I can cite half a dozen cases in my local area that have happened in the past eighteen months. "Minimial at best" is not good enough.

There is no matter of dealing with teachers who may not want to carry. Nothing here is forcing them to carry.
Except for your previous implication that if teachers are unwilling to be armed, they cannot be employed:

From this, the Board can weed out which teachers as far as who can and cannot carry.

Do you really think that if a kid knows that a teacher is packing the he would even attempt to fool with them ?
It depends on the student in question and what they think of the teacher. Some might think that they can get the gun away from their teacher.

But would you give a gun to a teacher in which you know could be easily overpowered ? This is where the weeding out process takes effect.
Again, I refer you back to your earlier implication that teachers need to carry weapons in order to be able to get a job.

What if that frail sixty-year-old lady is considered to be one of the best teachers in the school, who is responbisble for raising students' marks to the point where the school is eligible for government grants to expand their programmes? And what if the ex-Marine is a casual teacher that the faculty has informed the school not to employ as a casual unless there is no other option?

Let me just draw you a comparison here of the situation you have created:

Right now, the New South Wales state government is trying to push through legislation dubbed "Local Schools, Local Decisions". As a part of this, schools will be given much more control over their budgets, and will have the power to hire whomever they want for whichever position they need to fill. It sounds great, but the legislation is deeply unpopular because funding for education is being slashed. There is a genuine concern that schools will be forced to hire casual teachers on a day-to-day basis just so that schools can save money, and therefore be given a more-flexible budget in the next year.

The same principle applies here: although the idea of having teachers with guns might sound nice, public fears over violent gun crime like the Sandy Hook massacre could result in schools making the willingness to carry a gun a job requirement. It shifts the condition of employment to a variable that is totally unrelated to their ability to teach. This creates a situation where the school could be forced to hire second-rate teachers because the best teachers refuse to carry weapons.
 
I'm not sure having a gun in the hands of all teachers would be good. Many of them aren't even fit to teach, let alone have a firearm. I watched more than one teacher during my school go nuts on some kid and have a breakdown in class. Adding a gun to the mix of someone who's unstable and pissed off doesn't seem like a good idea.

However, if a teacher has a concealed weapons permit I could see it being OK as long as they were required to have additional training and maintain a certain level of proficiency. I'd also say they would be required to be evaluated frequently too to make sure they are mentally sound to own a gun. If the teacher is going to open fire on someone attacking the classroom, they need to know what the hell they are doing so they don't miss and hit a kid directly, or have a ricochet hit a kid.

Granted these are things I think should be required of all people with concealed weapons permit. It would still allow anyone to have a gun, but at the same time make sure that those who are carrying guns actually know how to use it in a situation safely.

But really I don't see why schools just can't have more security to begin with. When I was in high school there was a county sheriff stationed at the school everyday and I know for a fact he put an end to potentially bad situations pretty quick. If you reduce the threat, then teachers could focus on teaching and not being security.
 
Schools need better security. NOT teachers carrying guns. Teachers carrying guns around students is a TERRIBLE idea.

Instead of 20 people being killed, this leads to the possiblity of 100+ people being killed. Imagine a terrorist or group of people going room to room grabbing every gun from every teacher and just wiping an entire school out. This is such a terrible idea on so many levels.
 
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And at no point would any of the teachers that had a gun capable of stopping them shoot to injure or kill them.
 
Instead of 20 people being killed, this leads to the possiblity of 100+ people being killed. Imagine a terrorist or group of people going room to room grabbing every gun from every teacher and just wiping an entire school out. This is such a terrible idea on so many levels.

When the hell would this hypothetical situation happen anyway? Apparently unarmed terrorists attack a random school and use the guns teachers have (that apparently they refuse to use?) to kill everyone in the building?
 
Teachers carrying guns around students is a TERRIBLE idea.

Instead of 20 people being killed, this leads to the possiblity of 100+ people being killed. Imagine a terrorist or group of people going room to room grabbing every gun from every teacher and just wiping an entire school out. This is such a terrible idea on so many levels.
Alternative:
Teachers carrying guns around students is a GREAT idea.

Instead of 20 people being killed, this leads to the possiblity of no-one being killed. Imagine a terrorist or group of people going room to room and being put down the first time they go into a classroom. This is such a great idea on so many levels.
See how imagining things isn't helpful?
 
According to the UN Office of Drugs and Crime the average homicide rate in the USA since 2000 is around 5.5, for the UK that number is 1.6... so around three and a half times higher than the UK. According to FBI figures 68% of murders committed in the US use guns - this translates to around 8-9000 dead people a year thanks to guns.

...assuming 100% of the murders committed with guns would not have been committed with or without guns if guns were illegal.

If you're going to suggest that it's Guns that keeps the US's violent crime rate at about a quarter of the UK's (given the different recording methods and different definitions of 'violent' crime)... then I'm suggesting 8-9000 dead people is a high price to pay.

Unless I'm mistaken, murder is included in violent crime. So even taking into account our murder rates, our violent crime rates are still lower. That may not sound important, but it is because violent crime is far far far more likely to happen than murder.

Hypothetically let's say the US and UK populations are the same (for math purposes). Let's say that in the UK the murder rate was 1 person per year. Let's say the US murder rate was 2 people per year. The US has double the murder rate of the UK - very bad. Let's also say that 100% of the US murders were committed using guns - leading people to believe that banning guns would result in eliminating murder in the US. Sounds good right?

Let's say violent crime was at 400,000 per year in the UK and 100,000 per year in the US. Now which would you rather have? A significantly lower probability of being a victim of violent crime? Or an insignificantly lower probability of being murdered.

I'll let that marinade for a bit.

What good is it going to do anyone there?

Putting them in the prinicpals office would be about as effective as carrying it on your unloaded. What good does it do when you really need it asap and have to load it first?

Having a gun on the premises is a deterrent. Having only a couple of people who knows how to use the gun and have access to the safe greatly complicates the fish-in-a-barrel scenario for a would-be mass murderer. Even just one gun will slow him down and give the cops a chance to arrive. It can mean the difference between 20 dead or just 5. It can mean the difference between shooting up a school and choosing not to.
 
I think is not a nice idea with the weapons in schools in contemporary culture ...
go to future ? , or return to the Wild West ?

The student asks: how is your name Teacher ?
Teacher: my name? .... "The Fastest Gun"

your name student? the teacher ask...
teacher: my name? .... Clint Eastwood

...because everyone knows that old teacher over the books is not faster than a well-trained crazy student where preparing for something bad... :D

:crazy:

my opinion is οnly good education in society can help order to reduce incidents...

sorry guys for satire, but it seems not a good this idea with guns...

(sorry 2 for my bad english)
 
Having a gun on the premises is a deterrent. Having only a couple of people who knows how to use the gun and have access to the safe greatly complicates the fish-in-a-barrel scenario for a would-be mass murderer. Even just one gun will slow him down and give the cops a chance to arrive. It can mean the difference between 20 dead or just 5. It can mean the difference between shooting up a school and choosing not to.
I agree with this. I can understand having maybe 1 gun for the principal but not a gun for EVERY single teacher in the entire school. The principal is the only "teacher" I could understand having a gun. I do feel every school needs more security. Or at least 1 security officer.
 
I don't think anyone is advocating giving every teacher a gun whether they like it or not. Teachers who want to carry a gun for the security of the classroom should not be prohibited from doing so. They should have access to the resources necessary to obtain a license. Currently it is very illegal to carry a gun onto most, if not all schools. This needs to change.
 
I don't think anyone is advocating giving every teacher a gun whether they like it or not. Teachers who want to carry a gun for the security of the classroom should not be prohibited from doing so. They should have access to the resources necessary to obtain a license. Currently it is very illegal to carry a gun onto most, if not all schools. This needs to change.

Some public universities do allow concealed carry. The University of Colorado, for example, allows students to carry on campus.
 
Some public universities do allow concealed carry. The University of Colorado, for example, allows students to carry on campus.

Students should study and socialize, not carry guns around.
 
Students should study and socialize, not carry guns around.

I didn't say they required it, I said they allowed it. And I don't think having a concealed weapon on your prevents studying or socializing.
 
Students should study and socialize, not carry guns around.

They also shouldn't be assaulted and raped, but that happens anyway. Hence why some feel that they need weapons.
 
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Let's say violent crime was at 400,000 per year in the UK and 100,000 per year in the US. Now which would you rather have? A significantly lower probability of being a victim of violent crime? Or an insignificantly lower probability of being murdered.

I'll let that marinade for a bit.

Again I'll refer back to the UK Home Office statement "Violent crime covers a wide range of offences, from minor assaults such as pushing and shoving
that result in no physical harm through to serious incidents of wounding and murder."

Yes violent crime is bad, however since around half of it (or better depending on whose recording the crime) does not even include injury to the victim, I'm going to say that, to be honest, I don't see it being quite as bad as being murdered and yes, it probably would be my preference... and for all your self defence and security, you are still three and a half times more likely to get murdered in the US anyway.

All this also assumes everything else is equal, which would be a whole separate debate. How effective are the policing methods, the distribution of officers on the beat, etc., the general state of society, poverty etc. etc.

Our system is a long way from perfect in many respects and I'll agree, a gun-ban in the US simply wouldn't work, but that's getting away from the point of the topic.

On which, I can't see teachers carrying guns being effective unless it's a good portion of them. 1 or 2 in a school of maybe 30 classes probably wouldn't do much. Whereas a couple of fully trained armed and armoured security guards, a reasonable CCTV system and radio's would be a more effective solution, able to respond as soon as someone was sighted on the premises, rather than a teacher, in the middle of lesson, and probably unaware there's a problem until the shooting and screaming starts, if then.
 
I've pulled the ONS data from a BBC page and edited it a little.

murdersuk.jpg

That's quite an eye opening bit of data Famine, i can see why some draw the link between stricter gun law/higher murder rate.


In 2003 two schoolgirls were shot dead in Birmingham.
This however, i don't think was caused by the effect of stricter gun laws. This was gang related (i used to work 5mins walk from where this happened in Lozells/Aston), it didn't happen at a school (not insinuating you didn't know that already), it sadly happened when they were celebrating NYE, it had something to do with beef between the Johnson crew and Burger Bar Boys.
 
Wouldn't the teachers be the first persons to be shot down by a killer if this were to happen?

They most likely are the first targets already. Doesn't change the fact that a teacher with a gun is far better prepared to respond to a gunman than one who is not.

It's also worth noting that having some sort of active security acts as a deterrent. There is a reason why almost every mass homicide occurs in a place where there is no armed response. Mass shooters aren't looking for a gunfight, they're looking for a slaughter. Schools should not be the place where they can find one like they have been for so long.
 
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