Teachers with guns ?

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Do you support teachers carrying guns ?


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They most likely are the first targets already. Doesn't change the fact that a teacher with a gun is far better prepared to respond to a gunman than one who is not.

What I tried to say was that it could be possible to enter a room, kill the teacher, and then kill the rest of the students. But I suppose it's not easy to enter a room with a hidden assault rifle.

It's also worth noting that having some sort of active security acts as a deterrent. There is a reason why almost every mass homicide occurs in a place where there is no armed response. Mass shooters aren't looking for a gunfight, they're looking for a slaughter. Schools should not be the place where they can find one like they have been for so long.

Sure, it makes sense that if you want to kill as many people as possible, you don't want anyone to stop you anytime soon.
 
Whereas a couple of fully trained armed and armoured security guards, a reasonable CCTV system and radio's would be a more effective solution, able to respond as soon as someone was sighted on the premises, rather than a teacher, in the middle of lesson, and probably unaware there's a problem until the shooting and screaming starts, if then.
This^
I think a teachers role should be concentrated on teaching, not the security of their students, dedicated security guards would be better suited (imo).
 
That's quite an eye opening bit of data Famine, i can see why some draw the link between stricter gun law/higher murder rate.

This however, i don't think was caused by the effect of stricter gun laws. This was gang related (i used to work 5mins walk from where this happened in Lozells/Aston), it didn't happen at a school (not insinuating you didn't know that already), it sadly happened when they were celebrating NYE, it had something to do with beef between the Johnson crew and Burger Bar Boys.
It was more to do with the number of guns handed in after the shooting (80% more than in the 1997 amnesty) and the next year's figures being the bloodiest on record, than the situation of the shooting itself.
This^
I think a teachers role should be concentrated on teaching, not the security of their students, dedicated security guards would be better suited (imo).
Inside a school building, all members of staff are charged with acting "in loco parentis" - though support staff don't have as much of an onus. When teaching a class full of children, the teacher is the parent - they have to take decisions as a parent would (in an emergency - all reasonable steps should be taken to contact parents and obtain their consent) and that includes the safety, security and health of the children.
 
It was more to do with the number of guns handed in after the shooting (80% more than in the 1997 amnesty) and the next year's figures being the bloodiest on record, than the situation of the shooting itself.
That's quite a worrying statistic, you'd think with the higher amnesty the record would be lower. Having said that, i still think there's more to this equation than the correlation between stricter gun law/higher murder rate in the UK, though i really can't say what it is, maybe people are just becoming more evil or something. *shrugs*

When teaching a class full of children, the teacher is the parent - they have to take decisions as a parent would (in an emergency - all reasonable steps should be taken to contact parents and obtain their consent) and that includes the safety, security and health of the children.
I agree in all respects that the teacher has the responsibility to be the parent when in school, i just feel that a dedicated security team would do a better job of protecting the safety of the students, as that would be pretty much the sole purpose of their job.
 
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That's quite a worrying statistic, you'd think with the higher amnesty the record would be lower. Having said that, i still think there's more to this equation than the correlation between stricter gun law/higher murder rate in the UK, though i really can't say what it is, maybe people are just becoming more evil or something. *shrugs*

Entirely possible. Violent crime rates can be linked to a number of different things depending on who you ask. Things range from poverty levels to frustration with authority to a simple culture of self obsession. I think that last point is particularly relevant to mass shootings of recent years.

They ain't got no respect (for human life).
 
Entirely possible. Violent crime rates can be linked to a number of different things depending on who you ask. Things range from poverty levels to frustration with authority to a simple culture of self obsession. I think that last point is particularly relevant to mass shootings of recent years.

They ain't got no respect (for human life).
I agree.
 
Again I'll refer back to the UK Home Office statement "Violent crime covers a wide range of offences, from minor assaults such as pushing and shoving
that result in no physical harm through to serious incidents of wounding and murder."

...and everything in between. I'll trade a significant reduction in violent crime percentage with an insignificant increase in murder rates anytime. I posted the actual numbers in the gun thread I believe, but it really is akin to reducing the likelihood of being the victim of a violent crime likelihood from 0.2% to 0.1% versus reducing the chance of being murdered from 0.001% to 0.0005%. I'll see if I can find where I posted that.


On which, I can't see teachers carrying guns being effective unless it's a good portion of them. 1 or 2 in a school of maybe 30 classes probably wouldn't do much.

Totally completely wrong. 1 or 2 makes a massive difference compared to 0. Massive. You need to think like someone who wants to shoot up a school for a second to realize what a huge difference that is.
 
Think about it A facility full of utterly defenseless targets vs a place where just one person has the ability to sneak up, surprise, or otherwise gain the upper hand and kill you. Even playground games and sports dramatically change when it's opposing forces compared to a simple slaughter. Being a shark in sharks and minnows is very different than playing a game of paintball.

Yeah. That was really bad.
 

Seriously? From all the research you carried out you ended up with this fly by night election campaign piece. That's some selective research. Seriously?

The Authority appreciates that political debate involves the selection and interpretation of statistics and other evidence to support an argument. It would not be appropriate for the Authority to seek to intervene in political debate directly. However, where we see that official statistics have been presented or quoted in a way that seems likely to mislead the public, we will publicly draw this to the attention of those involved.

I would continue with this if the full research was published, but it hasn't. For some reason, despite strongly worded requests for its publication, they failed to do so. It looks very unlikely given that this was over 2 years ago. I wonder why.


http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2010/03/19/letter-to-chris-grayling/
 

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Think about it A facility full of utterly defenseless targets vs a place where just one person has the ability to sneak up, surprise, or otherwise gain the upper hand and kill you. Even playground games and sports dramatically change when it's opposing forces compared to a simple slaughter. Being a shark in sharks and minnows is very different than playing a game of paintball.

Yeah. That was really bad.

Just because one person has a gun means nothing. Look at the Fort Hood shooting, 1 man killed 13 and wounded 29 people and he was surrounded by soldiers who are trained at killing armed people.

If someone would have had a gun do you think the Newtown shooting would have occurred? It probably still would of. People who are going to shoot up a school aren't exactly all there to begin with and I'm sure they typically aren't thinking "hey someone might have a gun".

Plus merely having a gun does nothing unless you are fully trained on how to use it. I would wager a vast majority of people with concealed weapons permits wouldn't know what to do if faced with a situation where they need to kill someone. Fear is a powerful immobilizer and unless you've been trained to overcome that fear you're just going to be a bystander with a gun.
 

The chart also only shows murders, not homicides - neither manslaughter nor suicide are not counted. The method is not shown either.

The chart highlights 'homicides'. Am I missing something?
 
Seriously guys? Guns are not some magical object capable of stopping an assailant in their tracks. I mean, go play some paintball or airsoft and try and take somebody down while under fire, and that's hard enough without a classroom full of kids in the way and an attacker with superior firepower. If some dude with an AR is in your classroom lighting the kids up, you're dead before your gun is drawn.

Not to mention that if you have armed teachers, it's not going to be long before a teacher gets sick of carrying that metal lump around on their belt, takes it off and sticks it in their desk or wherever, forgets it's there, and next thing you know you have a kid finding it and ending up dead or shooting another kid.

Where I grew up, we had armed cops in schools and metal detectors at the doors. That's a more effective deterrent than giving guns to teachers. So is installing reinforced doors with automatic locks in classrooms.

No need? The police have them. What happens if the police oppress and threaten me with their assault rifles, how am I supposed to defend myself? And the military has a whole helluva lot more where that came from. What if the National Guard comes rolling down the road, how to I protect myself against that?


You may not realize why the Second Amendment was put into place. Our Founding Fathers believed that all humans enjoyed three basic rights, God-given as they called it, logical truths as I call it. The first one is the right to life. They just came out of an era where the British rules civilians with their guns, and there were numerous unjust deaths by British guns throughout the period. They knew that the only mechanism the institution of government operates on is that of force, and they realized that for people to be able to protect their lives from overzealous force there must be a clear protection of the means with which to protect those lives. The Second Amendment protects the peoples' right to bear arms - arms being weapons by definition - and does not specify what types of weapons. We can argue about the original capitalization of the word Arms, a proper noun, which seems to cement the definition as any weapon. An aircraft carrier is just as much a weapon as a bayonet and the Second Amendment makes no differentiation between them.

It's as simple as that and I can't wrap my head around how people can argue with it. The damn thing says arms which means weapons. It does not say what kind, it just says weapons. It can't get any simpler.

It says "a well-regulated militia" before it says anything about arms. Federalist Papers 28 and 29 deal with the meaning of this statement and the structure of the militia, which is to be composed of leaders appointed by state governments and lower-ranking members approved by the government. They are to be regularly inspected and drilled. Federalist Paper 28 explains the opinion of the framers that individual citizens attempting to defend themselves from a tyrannical government will be an ineffective force that will be quickly crushed and that it is state governments and their regulated militias that can protect the people from the federal government if necessary.

The vast majority of constitutional scholars agree with this interpretation, and so did the Supreme Court until the mid-2000s, when a number of extremely political members were appointed and the court reversed its long-held stance on the issue.

If the US Army comes rolling down the road, it's the job of the National Guards of all the states to stop them. If your state National Guard comes rolling down the road, then the federal military comes to stop them. Of course, this really isn't even an issue in the eyes of the framers of the constitution because both forces, especially the state guards, are composed of normal people from the community who will not act against their friends and neighbors.

By the way, I'm not anti-gun, and I'm not anti-"assault weapon." However, I'm not going to let my own feelings on the matter delude me about what the constitution means. If you ask me, what we need for the gun problem in this country is mandatory registration, strict background checks, mandatory secure storage of guns, and severe penalties for not reporting a gun lost or stolen if it's no longer in your possession, for possessing a gun you shouldn't have, and for using a gun in a crime. When NYC increased its penalties for carrying an illegal gun from a misdemeanor to a serious felony, their gun crime rate fell dramatically. Why hasn't this happened everywhere else?
 
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The chart highlights 'homicides'. Am I missing something?
Yup. The BBC.

There were 636 murders in the UK in the year July 2010 to June 2011 (the "2011" data), at least according to the Home Office. Technically the term "homicide" covers all occasions where a person dies outside of naturally causes - murder, manslaughter, suicide, accidental death, anything where someone can be said to have been killed.

Traditionally, we like to separate those occasions where someone has died through the direct action (or inaction - that's a thing too) of another as homicide, whereas occasions where someone has died by their own actions (suicide, misadventure) or by a series of events that could not have been predicted to avoid (accidental) are classed separately.

The above chart is for murders only - it would tally with US first (planned) and second (unplanned) degree murders, as crimes where an individual has been killed deliberately. I suspect it would also include what USians call voluntary manslaughter, which is intentional killing without planning due to extreme circumstances - though sometimes we'd class that as murder and sometimes as "manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility", so only some "voluntary manslaughters" would be in, making a direct comparison tricky.
 
Of course, this really isn't even an issue in the eyes of the framers of the constitution because both forces, especially the state guards, are composed of normal people from the community who will not act against their friends and neighbors.

I thought they saw them in the opposite light. They saw them as the dregs of society and wouldn't give a damn about the people and what they stood for? One big reason why they weren't trusted, unlike today where we now glorify and honour them.
 
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This?

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair. The usurpers, clothed with the forms of legal authority, can too often crush the opposition in embryo. The smaller the extent of the territory, the more difficult will it be for the people to form a regular or systematic plan of opposition, and the more easy will it be to defeat their early efforts. Intelligence can be more speedily obtained of their preparations and movements, and the military force in the possession of the usurpers can be more rapidly directed against the part where the opposition has begun. In this situation there must be a peculiar coincidence of circumstances to insure success to the popular resistance.
 
Seriously guys? Guns are not some magical object capable of stopping an assailant in their tracks. I mean, go play some paintball or airsoft and try and take somebody down while under fire, and that's hard enough without a classroom full of kids in the way and an attacker with superior firepower. If some dude with an AR is in your classroom lighting the kids up, you're dead before your gun is drawn.

If said dude is aware that someone might be armed in the premises, he goes through the door more slowly, he looks around more carefully, he checks his back more often, he does everything more slowly.

If he hears shots... doesn't even have to be in the same room, doesn't have to hit him, doesn't have to do squat, he takes cover and plots his next move carefully. All of this buys time for the cops.

Play paintball sometime and see how many kills you rack up in 5 minutes.
 
I thought they saw them in the opposite light. They saw them as the dregs of society that wouldn't give a damn about the people and what they stood for? One big reason why they weren't trusted, unlike today where we now glorify and honour them.

The federal military or the state militia? They were worried about the military becoming a dangerous force so they designed a military that was less likely or able to stage a coup, which is why ultimate authority rests with civillians and not members of the military. Things like the Second Amendment and Federalist Papers assume a "safer" system will be in place. They also assume a system in which there is a much smaller and sometimes nonexistent federal standing army, which raises a whole bunch of other issues compared to our situation now, but I'm barely qualified to put in opinions about what the constitution originally meant, much less how it relates to modern times.
 

That's an undesirable hypothetical situation. When he says "must," he means "will have to." He's saying "if things are done wrong, this is what will have to happen, and it's not what we want. He's basically saying that if we allow a situation where an authority can grab power and individual people try to oppose them, they'll be disorganized and will easily be defeated. The point of the statement is that individual people who are not part of an organized force are ineffective at resisting an tyrannical government. It's an argument for why we should have organized citizen militias that are made of local people but lead by federal ones and for why we should specifically not interpret the amendment as giving individuals a means to resist the government.
 
Just because one person has a gun means nothing. Look at the Fort Hood shooting, 1 man killed 13 and wounded 29 people and he was surrounded by soldiers who are trained at killing armed people.

IIRC, the guy at Fort Hood specifically chose a place where there were no firearms. Out of the last 60 years of mass shootings, all but one - the Gabrielle Giffords shooting in AZ - occurred in an area where people were prohibited to carry a firearm. That says a lot.

If someone would have had a gun do you think the Newtown shooting would have occurred? It probably still would of. People who are going to shoot up a school aren't exactly all there to begin with and I'm sure they typically aren't thinking "hey someone might have a gun".

Obviously armed response is not a perfect deterrent. And yes, I do believe that the people who go on mass shootings take response into account. See above. They don't want a gun fight, they want a slaughter. People with guns don't give them that choice.

Plus merely having a gun does nothing unless you are fully trained on how to use it. I would wager a vast majority of people with concealed weapons permits wouldn't know what to do if faced with a situation where they need to kill someone. Fear is a powerful immobilizer and unless you've been trained to overcome that fear you're just going to be a bystander with a gun.

Two problems with that statement.

1) Concealed Carry Permit holders have stopped multiple threats both in self defense and in defense of others. The Oregon Mall shooter is reported to have only committed suicide after being confronted by an armed concealed carry permit holder.

I searched "concealed carry holder stops crime" here are some results I found without scrolling down. I could find you hundreds if I had the motivation.

http://www.gunandgame.com/guns/robbery-attempted-stopped-by-concealed-carry-holder/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-with-concealed-handgun-license-stops-vicious-stabbing-outside-texas-school/
http://www.12newsnow.com/story/19253451/shotgun-robber-not-successful

2) Police officers are also known to freeze up under pressure. Look at the shooting in front of the Empire State Building. The guy was shooting one handed and hit nine bystanders. Korean store owners during the Rodney King riots report police fleeing scenes of violence. Police forces tend to have very low standards for firearm proficiency. If you trust them with guns, you don't have much of a reason to not trust CCW holders.

Seriously guys? Guns are not some magical object capable of stopping an assailant in their tracks. I mean, go play some paintball or airsoft and try and take somebody down while under fire, and that's hard enough without a classroom full of kids in the way and an attacker with superior firepower. If some dude with an AR is in your classroom lighting the kids up, you're dead before your gun is drawn.

I'll bet that I have a lot more experience with guns and the types of people who carry them than you do. So does Danoff. Go look at the links that I posted. Google search for concealed carry permit holders stopping armed attackers.

Not to mention that if you have armed teachers, it's not going to be long before a teacher gets sick of carrying that metal lump around on their belt, takes it off and sticks it in their desk or wherever, forgets it's there, and next thing you know you have a kid finding it and ending up dead or shooting another kid.

Any evidence to support this claim or are we doing hypothetical situations again?

It says "a well-regulated militia" before it says anything about arms. Federalist Papers 28 and 29 deal with the meaning of this statement and the structure of the militia, which is to be composed of leaders appointed by state governments and lower-ranking members approved by the government. They are to be regularly inspected and drilled. Federalist Paper 28 explains the opinion of the framers that individual citizens attempting to defend themselves from a tyrannical government will be an ineffective force that will be quickly crushed and that it is state governments and their regulated militias that can protect the people from the federal government if necessary.

If the US Army comes rolling down the road, it's the job of the National Guards of all the states to stop them. If your state National Guard comes rolling down the road, then the federal military comes to stop them. Of course, this really isn't even an issue in the eyes of the framers of the constitution because both forces, especially the state guards, are composed of normal people from the community who will not act against their friends and neighbors.

Let's take it straight from the horse's mouth.

US Bill of Rights
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It doesn't say the "right of the militia", it says the "right of the people". You are also aware that the NG is by no definition a militia, right?

By the way, I'm not anti-gun, and I'm not anti-"assault weapon." However, I'm not going to let my own feelings on the matter delude me about what the constitution means. If you ask me, what we need for the gun problem in this country is mandatory registration, strict background checks, mandatory secure storage of guns, and severe penalties for not reporting a gun lost or stolen if it's no longer in your possession, for possessing a gun you shouldn't have, and for using a gun in a crime. When NYC increased its penalties for carrying an illegal gun from a misdemeanor to a serious felony, their gun crime rate fell dramatically. Why hasn't this happened everywhere else?

We already have most of that. How would anything along those lines stop people from killing classrooms full of children? Making the legal means to obtain them even more sluggish will mean that they won't have access to deadly weapons? Yeah, right.
 
And the Giffords shooter was stopped by a CCW-holder before he could do any more damage.
 
IIRC, the guy at Fort Hood specifically chose a place where there were no firearms. Out of the last 60 years of mass shootings, all but one - the Gabrielle Giffords shooting in AZ - occurred in an area where people were prohibited to carry a firearm. That says a lot.

It was still a military base though, it might have been a small area where there were no firearms but it was still in a place where firearms were present and certainly not banned.

Shootings happen in Detroit almost daily and I would say more people own a gun there then do not. Hell look at any inner city area, there are all sorts of guns there and yet they often are the areas with the highest incidents of gun related violence.

Obviously armed response is not a perfect deterrent. And yes, I do believe that the people who go on mass shootings take response into account. See above. They don't want a gun fight, they want a slaughter. People with guns don't give them that choice.

If you are already mentally unstable and hell bent on killing someone, you are probably solely focused on the crime. An armed area might be a deterrent to some, but those who do mass shootings I can't really say would care or really understand what they might be up against.

1) Concealed Carry Permit holders have stopped multiple threats both in self defense and in defense of others. The Oregon Mall shooter is reported to have only committed suicide after being confronted by an armed concealed carry permit holder.

I searched "concealed carry holder stops crime" here are just a few of the results. I could find you hundreds if I had the motivation.

I'm not saying they don't stop crime, there's always going to be examples of where someone was able to stop a murder from happening because they were armed. I'm saying that a majority of those with a concealed weapons permit probably would choke under pressure and be all but useless in the face of a crime. It takes a lot of will power to overcome fright and take another person's life.

2) Police officers are also known to freeze up under pressure. Look at the shooting in front of the Empire State Building. The guy was shooting one handed and hit nine bystanders. Korean store owners during the Rodney King riots report police fleeing scenes of violence. Police forces tend to have very low standards for firearm proficiency. If you trust them with guns, you don't have much of a reason to not trust CCW holders.

Thing is though police officers still go through extensive training and continued training. Sure anyone can freeze up but the likelihood you will freeze up is much lower if you constantly train. If you're going to carry a firearm I don't see why you shouldn't be required to maintain a certain level of high proficiency with it. Plus going by the theme in this thread, what would be more of a deterrent? An average guy with a gun and no training, or someone who is highly trained and will fire on an assailant with a weapon without flinching?
 
The language of the constitution is not the common language of today, and the way things are worded is confusing by modern standards. If "the people" meant "everybody", the supreme court and the rest of the government would not have denied that the constitution implies an individual right for well over two hundred years. The National Guard is quite similar to the militias outlined in the Federalist Papers and in fact is directly descended from units that were officially known as militias.

The Sandy Hook shooting would have been prevented had the owner of the weapons kept them locked up when they were not in her hands. That's also true of several other incidents. The other things I suggest admittedly relate more to the issue of gun violence as a whole than to these mass shootings. The truth is that there really isn't a lot that can be done about them.

I have more firearms and tactical experience than I think you're assuming. Not only do I have a pretty good amount of range time, I've worked a decent amount with law enforcement agencies, including having been a part of the local one's tactical training for a period of time.

And the Giffords shooter was stopped by a CCW-holder before he could do any more damage.

What? The shooter was tackled by a wounded, unarmed veteran and several other bystanders and the CCW-holder arrived after the shooting had stopped and never used his weapon.
 
Thing is though police officers still go through extensive training and continued training. Sure anyone can freeze up but the likelihood you will freeze up is much lower if you constantly train. If you're going to carry a firearm I don't see why you shouldn't be required to maintain a certain level of high proficiency with it. Plus going by the theme in this thread, what would be more of a deterrent? An average guy with a gun and no training, or someone who is highly trained and will fire on an assailant with a weapon without flinching?

Not really. It's the SWAT guys that train regularly, not the street cops.

What? The shooter was tackled by a wounded, unarmed veteran and several other bystanders and the CCW-holder arrived after the shooting had stopped and never used his weapon.

I saw the CCW guy say in an interview that he helped intervene because he knew he could defend himself with his firearm if he needed to. He didn't run away because he was armed, and he helped subdue Loughner as a result.
 
The language of the constitution is not the common language of today, and the way things are worded is confusing by modern standards. If "the people" meant "everybody", the supreme court and the rest of the government would not have denied that the constitution implies an individual right for well over two hundred years.

I'm not going to guess what you are talking about this time, please give the rulings you are considering.
 
Not really. It's the SWAT guys that train regularly, not the street cops.

A police officer still is required to train more than a CCW permit holder though. I know there are CCW owners who do spend quite a bit of time at the range, but there's also quite a few that don't. I know when I finally get around to taking my classes for a CCW I'll be in the range at least a couple times a month if not more. I want to make sure when I carry, I'm not going to be completely useless.
 
No. If I was a student at an elementary school, and I found out that teachers carried guns, I'd be scared to death. Not only by the teachers themselves, but by the recognition by the teachers of a serious threat. Also, wouldn't it be cheaper to improve mental health care instead of buying thousands of guns for teachers?

One more point: Columbine had armed guards. Fat lot of good it did.

Interesting, I found out my teacher had a CCW I wasn't afraid, meaning that it's subjective and shouldn't actually be a point to hinder teacher carry. If anything points like, an actual state police taskforce to protect schools that have more training than teachers should be. How would it be cheaper? Who is saying that it would cost schools, why not have teachers that already have guns to volunteer?

Also it's been said that mental health portion is far more complicated than, gun action. What would you determine under mental? I have family members with bipolar conditions that have been diagnosed and on medication, are we to fear people now that have any type of mental issue, many in the U.S. do. I have yet to hear any real ideas posed on the medical end of this, and more so oversweeping judgement.

The thing that would scare me is the idea that the teachers are armed because someone is going to try and kill me. That's not reassuring.

So rather you are not so much scared of a teacher having the weapon, but the reason why...

The real truth is people all the time; try harming other people for various reasons, and being protective or vigilant whether teacher or guard is necessary. Not only that, but it further validates why the argument doesn't quell why teachers shouldn't carry.
 
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I'm not going to guess what you are talking about this time, please give the rulings you are considering.

They refused to conclusively state that there was an individual right until somewhere around 2004 IIRC, when the Roberts/Scalia etc supreme court started pushing through rulings. Unfortunately I'm not having any luck coming up with anything through the internet (unsurprisingly), but it was something I just covered in a decent amount of depth a couple months back in a government class. There was plenty of evidence, I just don't know the specific names of the rulings and statements and finding them any other way is impossible since google just comes up with endless political crap.
 
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