Teenagers Kill Baby

[nealcropper]

Maybe MarinaDiamandis is right. In my heart I know he's right, but the easy solutions is to react in anger when it is fear and sadness that we really feel. It is clear that there is far too much hate and not enough love for our society. As a society we are full of unresolved conflict and [care bear moment] feelings of inadequacy and not feeling loved. [/care bear moment] Maybe if we spent more time loving people until it hurts, we could avoid seeing this kind of thing on the news, on GTP, and in our neighborhoods.

Maybe a bit too lovey lovey, but the sentiment is spot on.

 

[Pako]

I'd give ya a hug nealcropper! (in a very non threatening way of course.....)

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

Sometimes the compassion the Buddhism has to be set aside to rectify what has been done. From my Islamic view, the only way he can be forgiven is if he asks for it, the mother gives it, receives compensation (blood money) and then be put to death.

Rectify? Don't you mean, sweep under the rug. The easy way out is to execute and wash your hands of it, like putting down a dog that bites. Becoming a murderer isn't genetic, just like a dog biting isn't, it is not something we can wipe out with a cull, it is something that must be addressed at the source. Until then there will always be murders.

There is no blood that needs to be spilled, or scales that need to be balanced. Executing someone is saying "We don't know how to deal with this, so we won't".

So now you have two dead and not a lot to show for it, things certainly are going well here. Who's next?

And no amount of rough livelihood should drive a mere teenager to kill a child in public. I don't believe that one bit. I don't care that they felt like garbage or had esteem issues. That's not an excuse to murder a baby.

It can, has and does. It's not that they felt a little bit upset or a little bit misunderstood, it's that they felt completely cut off and apart from society, just as members (and yourself - "I don't care") here are making them now. I never said it was an excuse for doing it or that they are not responsible for their actions, but it's probably the reason that led to them doing it.

EDIT: To Pako, the manliest of all the Care Bears, can you see the similarity between what is happening? The robbery turned into a murder, likely because of sudden strong emotions on the part of the murderer - sometimes even a normal situation turns into a murder and the murderer cannot understand how they did what they have done.

For example, a husband walking in on his wife with another man, the husband experiences a sudden build up of sadness/anger that manifests itself as blind rage and the husband beating the guy to death - afterwards he cannot understand his actions. A normal, hardworking guy is now a murderer up for execution.

Then we have the group calling for blood - blinded by their sudden sadness/anger at what has happened, swift 'justice' must be had. As difficult as it is, remove the emotion and analyse the logical approach for dealing with this issue.

 

[arora]

I don't want a hug from Pako he'd crush my organs

 

[Altier146237]

Rectify? Don't you mean, sweep under the rug. The easy way out is to execute and wash your hands of it, like putting down a dog that bites. Becoming a murderer isn't genetic, just like a dog biting isn't, it is not something we can wipe out with a cull, it is something that must be addressed at the source. Until then there will always be murders.

There is no blood that needs to be spilled, or scales that need to be balanced. Executing someone is saying "We don't know how to deal with this, so we won't".

So now you have two dead and not a lot to show for it, things certainly are going well here. Who's next?

It can, has and does. It's not that they felt a little bit upset or a little bit misunderstood, it's that they felt completely cut off and apart from society, just as members here are making them now. I never said it was an excuse for doing it or that they are not responsible for their actions, but it's probably the reason that led to them doing it.

So what do you propose? Hugging the murderous scum? Or should they be tried as adults like in other similar extreme cases. Also you are correct in viewing upbringing as a factor but it is FAR from the only factor. What would you want done if it was your child. I do not have a child of my own but I have a very young nephew who is not much older than the victim. If it was my nephew who was killed I would only view it as true justice if the killers were tried as adults.

 

[W3H5]

*snip*

 

[dylansan]

Rectify? Don't you mean, sweep under the rug. The easy way out is to execute and wash your hands of it, like putting down a dog that bites. Becoming a murderer isn't genetic, just like a dog biting isn't, it is not something we can wipe out with a cull, it is something that must be addressed at the source. Until then there will always be murders.

There is no blood that needs to be spilled, or scales that need to be balanced. Executing someone is saying "We don't know how to deal with this, so we won't".

So now you have two dead and not a lot to show for it, things certainly are going well here. Who's next?



It can, has and does. It's not that they felt a little bit upset or a little bit misunderstood, it's that they felt completely cut off and apart from society, just as members here are making them now. I never said it was an excuse for doing it or that they are not responsible for their actions, but it's probably the reason that led to them doing it.

This is pretty close to how I feel as well. It's why I've felt a little uneasy about all the criticism of CNN for "defending" those other teens. While I do think it's pretty awful that they didn't talk about the tragedy of the victims, I do think they were right that the fact that the kids became criminals is also a tragedy in itself.

I would much rather stop people from committing crimes than punish the people who do. I understand that these can be the same thing, when considering punishment as a deterrent, but there are other important factors that ought to be addressed. I feel sympathetic towards those who become criminals and towards those who are victims of them.

 

[arora]

It's pretty clear that punishment as a form of deterrence is not cutting it. Quite the shame we are not willing to address the problem as a whole. To busy gathering wealth and stepping on one another maybe.

Give everyone a reasonable chance at a respectable life and most will choose it.

 

[KinLM]

Makes me sick. What motives do kids my age have to do this? We're all stupid but stuff like this doesn't have a place on this planet. Sad.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Rectify? Don't you mean, sweep under the rug. The easy way out is to execute and wash your hands of it, like putting down a dog that bites. Becoming a murderer isn't genetic, just like a dog biting isn't, it is not something we can wipe out with a cull, it is something that must be addressed at the source. Until then there will always be murders.

There is no blood that needs to be spilled, or scales that need to be balanced. Executing someone is saying "We don't know how to deal with this, so we won't".

So now you have two dead and not a lot to show for it, things certainly are going well here. Who's next?


It can, has and does. It's not that they felt a little bit upset or a little bit misunderstood, it's that they felt completely cut off and apart from society, just as members (and yourself - "I don't care") here are making them now. I never said it was an excuse for doing it or that they are not responsible for their actions, but it's probably the reason that led to them doing it.

EDIT: To Pako, the manliest of all the Care Bears, can you see the similarity between what is happening? The robbery turned into a murder, likely because of sudden strong emotions on the part of the murderer - sometimes even a normal situation turns into a murder and the murderer cannot understand how they did what they have done.

For example, a husband walking in on his wife with another man, the husband experiences a sudden build up of sadness/anger that manifests itself as blind rage and the husband beating the guy to death - afterwards he cannot understand his actions. A normal, hardworking guy is now a murderer up for execution.

Then we have the group calling for blood - blinded by their sudden sadness/anger at what has happened, swift 'justice' must be had. As difficult as it is, remove the emotion and analyse the logical approach for dealing with this issue.

I'm not blinded by anger with this one. I'm thinking that this kid made his life forfeit once he pulled that trigger. And what logical explanation is needed? You think any jury is going to buy his sob story? To them he's just another punk kid from the ghetto that got too big for his own good. Whatever happened before he pulled that trigger is pointless once the trial starts.

And by the way, murder is always going to happen. Punishment is always reactionary to crime. People know that executing the person will not bring their loved ones back, but it helps to gather some shred of closure knowing that the killer is 6 ft under.

Look I love my fellow man, but I also have my limits.

 

[Downhill Dino]

Makes me sick. What motives do kids my age have to do this? We're all stupid but stuff like this doesn't have a place on this planet. Sad.

Kids will be kids?

 

[KinLM]

Kids will be kids?

I hang out with people like this all day. I am one.

I can't picture me or any of my friends even thinking of doing this. But I know that there are some of us that are really messed up.

But despite that, I can't grasp it. I can't grasp how anybody could actually get past the fact that they're killing somebody. That they can't picture into the future far enough to realize that these decisions will land them a padded cell in this life and eternity in hell in the next one.

So, "Kids will be kids"... May be the case in many situations. But I still just can't see how anybody, especially people my age who still have so much left in their lives, could do such a thing.

 

[arora]

I'm not blinded by anger with this one. I'm thinking that this kid made his life forfeit once he pulled that trigger. And what logical explanation is needed? You think any jury is going to buy his sob story? To them he's just another punk kid from the ghetto that got too big for his own good. Whatever happened before he pulled that trigger is pointless once the trial starts.

And by the way, murder is always going to happen. Punishment is always reactionary to crime. People know that executing the person will not bring their loved ones back, but it helps to gather some shred of closure knowing that the killer is 6 ft under.

Look I love my fellow man, but I also have my limits.

I think you are arguing a different point. some of us are talking about crime prevention and social justice for all.

Of course it's not ok to run around killing and expect to play a sympathy card. I hope no one is advocating that anyway.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Oh we're talking about social justice?

I think that requires greater personal responsibility from all of us to make this happen.

 

[arora]

Yeah that 👍

I was just thinking, the way the world works now... mistakes, bad decisions, accidents, are so harshly judged. Add to that an impoverished status and you are basically doomed.

While most of us would never resort to loosing our moral compass, I can see how it could happen.

Anyway since it's been a while I'll state just how tragic this event is, how bad I feel for the mother, and how much I wish I could take it back on the behalf of the jerks who did it.

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

So what do you propose? Hugging the murderous scum? Or should they be tried as adults like in other similar extreme cases.

Since I think that the majority of legal systems in the world are totally worthless, trying them as adults holds little meaning. As i've said in other posts, punishing people who have or feel they have nothing to lose doesn't work, it just reinforces the idea in their mind that society is the enemy, which in turn reinforces the idea that the values of society don't matter to them.

Also you are correct in viewing upbringing as a factor but it is FAR from the only factor.

I'd say upbringing is not the only factor, but certainly a huge one. Obviously getting caught in the 'heat of the moment' is another big one, but a good upbringing should teach you to not let your emotions get the better of you.

What would you want done if it was your child

I'm in a similar situation to yourself, no child of my own, but a young niece and nephew and i'm very, very close to my friends little girl who I pretty much played daddy to for several years as the father doesn't want to know - even thinking about this happening to one of them hurts. Two of them have been through very rough patches and that was extremely trying for me, so anything more would push me to the absolute limit of what I could endure.

As for what i'd want done - the complete opposite to execution, complete rehabilitation into society. I would call on all the strength inside of me to forgive them - and even more so to be part of their rehabilitation, including meeting the killer regularly so that they know the person who forgave them on a one-to-one level and understand exactly why they were forgiven.

They are human and deserve better than to be locked away or slaughtered and never understand how precious not just other peoples lives are, but their own life too. I think once they are shown unconditional love without judgement or alienation that they will then realise how important and, even, appreciated they are.

I think settling for execution would be failing my child and failing future victims too. The definition of insanity and all that...

Yes, I know, i'm crazy.

 

[dylansan]

As for what i'd want done - the complete opposite to execution, complete rehabilitation into society. I would call on all the strength inside of me to forgive them - and even more so to be part of their rehabilitation, including meeting the killer regularly so that they know the person who forgave them on a one-to-one level and understand exactly why they were forgiven.

This would be ideal but unfortunately it's currently very hard to tell whether someone is actually rehabilitated or just faking it get out. The only way that's going to change is if we understand exactly what a criminal mind is like and are able to identify them, but at that point we would be able to stop people from becoming criminals much easier anyway, so it wouldn't make much difference.

 

[W3H5]

Everybody should be forced to listen to ABBA as a child, and then see if any crime occurs.

....actually, scrap that.

 

[arora]

The only way that's going to change is if we understand exactly what a criminal mind is like and are able to identify them, but at that point we would be able to stop people from becoming criminals much easier anyway, so it wouldn't make much difference.

I disagree with that, taking away privacy and freedom is never a good idea in my book. I've seen docu's ranging from depression to addiction to criminal behavior where brain scans and mri's ect are done, they say this and that and maybe there is some merit. I don't like it one bit, how can you dissect a living human and put them in a group a b or c. No good.

And suggesting abba? oh dear

​

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

This would be ideal but unfortunately it's currently very hard to tell whether someone is actually rehabilitated or just faking it to get out.

There is nowhere to 'get out' of, as I wouldn't lock them up. If you give them a better life than the one they had before, where they have a place in society and are valued and respected, I doubt they'd risk losing it all again.

 

[Pako]

All I'm saying is that we have tried violent reactions for the entire history of our human race only to be stuck in cyclical violence. So instead of reacting to the situation, what are we, as a society, willing to do in a proactive approach to detour this kind of behavior?

 

[arora]

We are probably never going to be willing to give up our greed and obsession with screwing others over. Unfortunately that is how I see it.

I have a neighbor who calls the police on me often enough to be an annoyance for instance, the reason why? She doesn't like my cars or how I might park one, she doesn't like that fact that I have live plants and not some dessert zero scape, and so forth.

I call her the cyborg LOL

 

[dylansan]

I disagree with that, taking away privacy and freedom is never a good idea in my book. I've seen docu's ranging from depression to addiction to criminal behavior where brain scans and mri's ect are done, they say this and that and maybe there is some merit. I don't like it one bit, how can you dissect a living human and put them in a group a b or c. No good.

I'm not advocating brain scans or anything on innocent people, but I would think that anything that gives better insight into how likely a previous criminal is to commit more crime would be the only way to have really useful rehabilitation. I don't think that's taking away freedoms considering they'd be locked up anyway at the time.

But if we had such information to make those determinations, it would be much easier to figure out what causes people to become criminals in the first place, and prevent that from happening. Pursuing that direction would be much more productive.

I wouldn't recommend giving everyone another chance perfectly free in society. Freed criminals do repeat crimes and throw away their lives all over again. It would be very dangerous to allow more people who've committed more serious crimes have that same option. Only if we can be reasonably sure they won't do it again should we allow them that option. Until then, we should be trying to get them to that point.

And hey, ABBA isn't that bad. Dancing Queen isn't their only song.

 

[Pako]

We are probably never going to be willing to give up our greed and obsession with screwing others over. Unfortunately that is how I see it.

I have a neighbor who calls the police on me often enough to be an annoyance for instance, the reason why? She doesn't like my cars or how I might park one, she doesn't like that fact that I have live plants and not some dessert zero scape, and so forth.

I call her the cyborg LOL

I think you're right, and sadly so. There is just too much "self". Driven by greed, consumerism and entitlement are infecting our society and brainwashing our youth.

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

All I'm saying is that we have tried violent reactions for the entire history of our human race only to be stuck in cyclical violence. So instead of reacting to the situation, what are we, as a society, willing to do in a proactive approach to detour this kind of behavior?

Yes, another part of the question is when are we going to get over this:

our greed and obsession with screwing others over.

and stop thinking of criminals as the enemy, as we have for so long.

It will certainly be a long and winding road before criminals are seen as equals by non-criminals. I think it's pretty awful that criminals are seen as 'lesser' people, and are isolated at the very point that they need the help of society the most. In fact, it sounds a little bonkers when you put it like that!

 

[arora]

I hear you dylansan, I'll simply say this; if you have a debt to pay to society pay it, and once it's payed you should be clear.

I know how I think most likely scares some, but when a man is grabbed with claws that don't let go he is no longer free. He will hold resentment and anger.

You are clearly right about studying an incarcerated one though as he forfeited his rights whether it be for a few months or life. After that though he should be let free imo.

Not a very easy subject I suppose.

EDIT: indeed diamond, a man is a man and one in need should not seem such a burden, hell we have all been there to some extent.

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

Not a very easy subject I suppose.

Although certainly an interesting one. I honestly thought it would be me and a few others saying rehabilitate vs a flood of others saying execute, but it has turned out much more varied than that.

Now the thread is a little quieter, i'd like to give the mother my most sincere condolences. There's not much you can say when somebody has lost so much, I just hope she can find strength, comfort and closure at this difficult time.

 

[arora]

👍

Along with the countless others who have been violated.

 

[Grayfox]

When they are put in jail, the inmates will kill them.
No one likes a baby killer.

 

[W3H5]

I think you're right, and sadly so. There is just too much "self". Driven by greed, consumerism and entitlement are infecting our society and brainwashing our youth.

To quote:

A crazy guy
We're consumers. We are by-products of a lifestyle obsession. Murder, crime, poverty, these things don't concern me. What concerns me are celebrity magazines, television with 500 channels, some guy's name on my underwear. Rogaine, Viagra, Olestra.

When they are put in jail, the inmates will kill them.
No one likes a baby killer.

I think that is a likelihood.