Tesla Master Plan: Part Deux

[homeforsummer]

I was going to sarcastically joke that the people who put down deposits will be thrilled, but being Tesla customers they're thrilled whatever Musk does so the joke doesn't really work.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

"Plaid+ is canceled. No need, as Plaid is just so good."

Plaid: 390 Mile range
Plaid+: 520 Mile range

That's a pretty big difference. I'm a little puzzled by this because it would have been Tesla's opportunity to show up the Lucid Air's 517 mile range or in the very least prevent Lucid from claiming longest range honors. (I'm pretty sure this was the entire point of the Plaid+ 520 mi range quote). That gulf in range, as it stands, gives the Lucid team a pretty strong leg to stand on from a marketing perspective.

I wonder if "No Need" is Musk speak for "We couldn't make it work in the time frame we set up".

I won't argue about the speed aspect - 2.0 seconds to 60mph is plenty enough. I wonder at what acceleration level you get into possible neck injuries for unprepared passengers.

 

[Keef]

"Plaid+ is canceled. No need, as Plaid is just so good."

Plaid: 390 Mile range
Plaid+: 520 Mile range

That's a pretty big difference. I'm a little puzzled by this because it would have been Tesla's opportunity to show up the Lucid Air's 517 mile range or in the very least prevent Lucid from claiming longest range honors. (I'm pretty sure this was the entire point of the Plaid+ 520 mi range quote). That gulf in range, as it stands, gives the Lucid team a pretty strong leg to stand on from a marketing perspective.

I wonder if "No Need" is Musk speak for "We couldn't make it work in the time frame we set up".

I won't argue about the speed aspect - 2.0 seconds to 60mph is plenty enough. I wonder at what acceleration level you get into possible neck injuries for unprepared passengers.

They've only got so much production capacity for the new battery cells. Plaid+ was going to use those cells but they've got other products that are going to use them as well. The Semi and Roadster in particular. Plaid+ will still happen eventually, and/or the next-gen Model S, and it'll use the new cells. And yes you're interpretation of his words is probably correct haha. They've got too much crap going on to make it happen.

 

[homeforsummer]

They've got too much crap going on to make it happen.

It must be a lot of effort announcing other cars they're also not building

@Eunos_Cosmo I can't remember where I saw it just the other day but someone was explaining why that kind of acceleration can feel so uncomfortable, and it basically is that whack of torque with absolutely no build-up, and from more or less any speed. The human body just doesn't have time to react to it and you naturally tense up to try and counter it.

Anyone here done a full-on emergency stop, full ABS, maximum pedal pressure, from freeway speeds before? Can't speak for everyone but I don't find that sensation particularly pleasant, and it's not much better (electric or petrol) doing it the other way around either.

I appreciate that Tesla has made EVs "cool" by making them quick but I'm still yet to find an EV that's more fun to drive than a Miata that barely gets to 60 in ten seconds. A Model S Plaid is basically just a RAM TRX or Aventador SVJ for tech bros.

 

[CodeRedR51]

It must be a lot of effort announcing other cars they're also not building

Factory isn't finished yet.

 

[TexRex]

Anyone here done a full-on emergency stop, full ABS, maximum pedal pressure, from freeway speeds before? Can't speak for everyone but I don't find that sensation particularly pleasant, and it's not much better (electric or petrol) doing it the other way around either.

You're speaking for yourself here, of course, but I disagree with the latter. I spent a good chunk of my 20s squeezing relatively quick runs at drag nights in an aggressive street Beetle and it was heaps of fun.

 

[Keef]

A Model S Plaid is basically just a RAM TRX or Aventador SVJ for tech bros.

It's basically a rollercoaster. You either like them or you don't.

But you're touching on a good point which is that this particular fun factor of EVs isn't going to last forever. Probably within the next decade, several EVs on the market will be hitting a traction ceiling and at that point acceleration will become a marketing non-factor. Everybody will be able to do it and frankly it will be easy to achieve. Think about how long it took the auto industry to achieve the 918's or Chiron's acceleration numbers, and then think about how long it took to achieve the Plaid's acceleration. The Plaid is still a first-generation car! A TRX seems like the most ridiculous and desirable contraption and yet any ol' EV truck will be able to do what it does.

So at some point soon when basically everybody can generate these numbers they simply won't matter anymore. I'm convinced that the factors which separate a good EV from a bad one will be considerably different than they are for ICE cars. Things like acceleration, power and torque, weight, center of gravity, etc, these will basically be the same across the board. Instead, people will shop for range, efficiency, storage capacity, and charging network ease of use. Charging especially be become a big factor because its time-consuming for an EV whereas with an ICE car the process is ubiquitous whether you've got a Chiron or an F-150. For example one of the reasons Tesla will continue to dominate is the Supercharger network which is simply quicker and more reliable than others.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

It must be a lot of effort announcing other cars they're also not building

@Eunos_Cosmo I can't remember where I saw it just the other day but someone was explaining why that kind of acceleration can feel so uncomfortable, and it basically is that whack of torque with absolutely no build-up, and from more or less any speed. The human body just doesn't have time to react to it and you naturally tense up to try and counter it.

Anyone here done a full-on emergency stop, full ABS, maximum pedal pressure, from freeway speeds before? Can't speak for everyone but I don't find that sensation particularly pleasant, and it's not much better (electric or petrol) doing it the other way around either.

I appreciate that Tesla has made EVs "cool" by making them quick but I'm still yet to find an EV that's more fun to drive than a Miata that barely gets to 60 in ten seconds. A Model S Plaid is basically just a RAM TRX or Aventador SVJ for tech bros.

I'm honestly thinking it might take Mazda themselves to make a fun to drive EV. If you think about it, none of the EVs yet made have really targeted fun. Brutal acceleration is not the same thing as fun, though I'm sure it's fun for some people. Tesla didn't even make cars before they launched their EVs, so you can't expect them to come out of the gates with something as nuanced and impossible to quantify as fun. Lotus could do it, but they are fully consumed with building some billion horsepower halo thing. I would argue that EVs still haven't crossed the threshold into undeniable market permanence (though it's getting awfully close) and so building a niche product in a broader niche market (EVs) seems like a risky move...I think that's why almost every EV we've seen has been either some kind of amorphous blobby thing suitable for generally everything or a headline grabbing, statement car.

I've heard that the Mazda MX-30 is somewhat fun to drive. Have you had a go?

 

[homeforsummer]

You're speaking for yourself here, of course, but I disagree with the latter. I spent a good chunk of my 20s squeezing relatively quick runs at drag nights in an aggressive street Beetle and it was heaps of fun.

Okay, but a) you're expecting it, which isn't the case if you're a passenger in a Tesla, b) you won't have some jerk doing that kind of acceleration repeatedly to show off, because once you're at the other end of the strip it's a slow trundle and a wait in a line to go again, and c) you're doing that from rest, and not also at town speeds, or highway speeds.

I've launched three-second-to-60 supercars numerous times, and it's vaguely fun, in part because there's also lots of noise going on which is exciting in itself. But even those will only give you that kick in the arse from rest, and have a progressive power curve.

Last time I drove a Tesla I launched it a couple of times and did a couple of highway pulls. It's technically impressive, but it's not fun, and it'd be downright unpleasant as a passenger.

It's basically a rollercoaster. You either like them or you don't.

On the point you quoted I was speaking more conceptually, in that they're basically monuments to excess and showing off, rather than vehicles with any real purpose.

But you're touching on a good point which is that this particular fun factor of EVs isn't going to last forever. Probably within the next decade, several EVs on the market will be hitting a traction ceiling and at that point acceleration will become a marketing non-factor. Everybody will be able to do it and frankly it will be easy to achieve. Think about how long it took the auto industry to achieve the 918's or Chiron's acceleration numbers, and then think about how long it took to achieve the Plaid's acceleration. The Plaid is still a first-generation car! A TRX seems like the most ridiculous and desirable contraption and yet any ol' EV truck will be able to do what it does.

That touches on another point, which is that I find it deeply unsettling that the industry is giving cars that large, heavy and cumbersome that much power. I'm pretty open-minded when it comes to people driving what they like, particularly if it's not likely to harm anyone else, but something like that Hummer truck that weighs 9000lbs but also has 1000hp and gets to 60 in three seconds... yeah, the world would be a better place without it.

So at some point soon when basically everybody can generate these numbers they simply won't matter anymore. I'm convinced that the factors which separate a good EV from a bad one will be considerably different than they are for ICE cars. Things like acceleration, power and torque, weight, center of gravity, etc, these will basically be the same across the board.

Sadly it's not difficult to see a world in which only a handful of manufacturers actually make something worth driving and everyone else just has ludicrously quick trucks. I'm kinda glad I stepped away from the new car world when I did because I've not seen a great deal that really inspires me in the new market since. Maybe that new Maverick, and we're not getting that in Europe anyway...

Instead, people will shop for range, efficiency, storage capacity, and charging network ease of use. Charging especially be become a big factor because its time-consuming for an EV whereas with an ICE car the process is ubiquitous whether you've got a Chiron or an F-150. For example one of the reasons Tesla will continue to dominate is the Supercharger network which is simply quicker and more reliable than others.

I honestly hope we get there soon. I'd much prefer a corporate dick-waving competition over something useful than the diminishing returns of making big two-tonne barges accelerate like supercars.

I'm honestly thinking it might take Mazda themselves to make a fun to drive EV.

I really hope they get at least one more generation of ICE Miata in before making the inevitable switch.

If you think about it, none of the EVs yet made have really targeted fun. Brutal acceleration is not the same thing as fun, though I'm sure it's fun for some people. Tesla didn't even make cars before they launched their EVs, so you can't expect them to come out of the gates with something as nuanced and impossible to quantify as fun. Lotus could do it, but they are fully consumed with building some billion horsepower halo thing. I would argue that EVs still haven't crossed the threshold into undeniable market permanence (though it's getting awfully close) and so building a niche product in a broader niche market (EVs) seems like a risky move...I think that's why almost every EV we've seen has been either some kind of amorphous blobby thing suitable for generally everything or a headline grabbing, statement car.

All true, though it's worth remembering that back in the day, sports cars were pretty quick to arrive because what better way to make people want cars than to make them beautiful and exciting?

I've heard that the Mazda MX-30 is somewhat fun to drive. Have you had a go?

Not had a go yet. I've heard it's decent, but with the usual caveat that it's still a raised vehicle with a fairly hefty kerbweight.

 

[TexRex]

Okay, but a) you're expecting it, which isn't the case if you're a passenger in a Tesla, b) you won't have some jerk doing that kind of acceleration repeatedly to show off, because once you're at the other end of the strip it's a slow trundle and a wait in a line to go again, and c) you're doing that from rest, and not also at town speeds, or highway speeds.

True. And my apologies, I wasn't getting that I'm a passenger in a Tesla with a dick behind the wheel.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I'm honestly thinking it might take Mazda themselves to make a fun to drive EV. If you think about it, none of the EVs yet made have really targeted fun. Brutal acceleration is not the same thing as fun, though I'm sure it's fun for some people. Tesla didn't even make cars before they launched their EVs, so you can't expect them to come out of the gates with something as nuanced and impossible to quantify as fun. Lotus could do it, but they are fully consumed with building some billion horsepower halo thing. I would argue that EVs still haven't crossed the threshold into undeniable market permanence (though it's getting awfully close) and so building a niche product in a broader niche market (EVs) seems like a risky move...I think that's why almost every EV we've seen has been either some kind of amorphous blobby thing suitable for generally everything or a headline grabbing, statement car.

I've heard that the Mazda MX-30 is somewhat fun to drive. Have you had a go?

Model 3's are quite popular for autocross and track days. There's more to them than straight line speed.

 

[McLaren]

How well do they hold up? I saw a Tesla Model S at a track day back in January and it eventually stopped after its first session because he had destroyed the brakes.

 

[CodeRedR51]

How well do they hold up? I saw a Tesla Model S at a track day back in January and it eventually stopped after its first session because he had destroyed the brakes.

Probably better than a Model S. But its highly recommended to upgrade brakes for track duty on just about any car short of a supercar. Pads and fluid minimum.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Okay, but a) you're expecting it, which isn't the case if you're a passenger in a Tesla, b) you won't have some jerk doing that kind of acceleration repeatedly to show off, because once you're at the other end of the strip it's a slow trundle and a wait in a line to go again, and c) you're doing that from rest, and not also at town speeds, or highway speeds.

I've launched three-second-to-60 supercars numerous times, and it's vaguely fun, in part because there's also lots of noise going on which is exciting in itself. But even those will only give you that kick in the arse from rest, and have a progressive power curve.

Last time I drove a Tesla I launched it a couple of times and did a couple of highway pulls. It's technically impressive, but it's not fun, and it'd be downright unpleasant as a passenger.

On the point you quoted I was speaking more conceptually, in that they're basically monuments to excess and showing off, rather than vehicles with any real purpose.

That touches on another point, which is that I find it deeply unsettling that the industry is giving cars that large, heavy and cumbersome that much power. I'm pretty open-minded when it comes to people driving what they like, particularly if it's not likely to harm anyone else, but something like that Hummer truck that weighs 9000lbs but also has 1000hp and gets to 60 in three seconds... yeah, the world would be a better place without it.

Sadly it's not difficult to see a world in which only a handful of manufacturers actually make something worth driving and everyone else just has ludicrously quick trucks. I'm kinda glad I stepped away from the new car world when I did because I've not seen a great deal that really inspires me in the new market since. Maybe that new Maverick, and we're not getting that in Europe anyway...

I honestly hope we get there soon. I'd much prefer a corporate dick-waving competition over something useful than the diminishing returns of making big two-tonne barges accelerate like supercars.

I really hope they get at least one more generation of ICE Miata in before making the inevitable switch.

All true, though it's worth remembering that back in the day, sports cars were pretty quick to arrive because what better way to make people want cars than to make them beautiful and exciting?

Not had a go yet. I've heard it's decent, but with the usual caveat that it's still a raised vehicle with a fairly hefty kerbweight.

I was curious as to what a "lightweight" EV might look like. If we take Tesla's batteries as near state of the art in terms of energy density, we're in the neighborhood of 6.25kg / kwh (P100 battery is 625kg and has 100kwh). An MX-5 engine weighs around 300lbs / 135kg, dressed. If we limit our battery pack to that weight and assume an energy density of the Tesla, I'm arriving at around 22kwh capacity. I think the ICE ND transmission is probably lighter than an electric motor, but there is probably some efficiency in the driveline with the EV, so we'll call that a wash. Assuming .35CD and about 19 square feet (1.79m^2) (figures I found for the ND), the car would consume about 12kw/hr maintaining 60mph, meaning our 22kwh battery could last us about 1.75 hours and give us about 105 miles of range. This agnostic of how much power you could produce (and ignoring the efficiency of the motor)...but it's pretty easy to see why battery capacity is prioritized over weight in EVs....weight ultimately has very little effect on range. Even at 4,000lbs the same car would only consume 3 more KW to maintain 60mph.

This example tells me that a lightweight EV would need extreme aero to be viable beyond urban driving ranges with current battery tech Either that or very exotic construction to give more weight back to the batteries. Maybe Mazda can utilize it's rotary engine range extender to pump out that 12kw needed for sustained highway cruising in a lightweight package? I'd be onboard with that.

The other side of fun, to me, is engagement. Without shifting in any capacity, I think engagement is limited. I hope somebody figures out how to make the acceleration of EVs more involving somehow.

 

[Keef]

I really hope they get at least one more generation of ICE Miata in before making the inevitable switch.

I agree with everything you said on the weight and power of these EVs. Truly dangerous. I already drive cautiously in my Sequoia partly because it's miserable to go any faster, partly because the mileage is terrible, and partly because if I hit anything besides another truck with any amount of speed, the thing I hit is going to lose. That's scary. The Hummer EV literally weighs as much as my truck towing a boat, and we've all seen what happens when trailer-laden trucks get out of control. The Hummer especially will become a tightly packaged weapon that could go straight through a Wendys rather than getting stuck in the windows like wayward Camrys were doing a few years ago. If some old guy kicks the bucket and gas pedal at the same time, things will get ugly about twice as quickly as literally any other car on the road.

As for the ICE Miata and other tiny sports cars, I actually think those cars are in a decent position to continue in the market for a while. Because of the nature of batteries and packaging and weight, I think they actually favor large cars over small ones. Note the fact that cars like the Honda E and even its better competition still are unable to match the range of the Model S, Taycan, and Lucid, and those cars will likely not be able to match the range of the next-largest segment cars. Batteries work best in large frames, and long frames - think S-class or RR - are actually the best for aerodynamics and efficiency. The ND Miata is still not a very aerodynamic car in the scheme of things and ultimately small EV sports cars will never be quite as efficient as larger cars.

Fortunately, ICEs actually do favor small vehicles and the ND and Greatysix remain light, efficient, clean, and inexpensive because of it. As long as the current methods of totaling emissions across a lineup continues, small sports cars might be able to continue on as ICE cars for these reasons. They're both low-volume and among the cleanest ICE cars on the market which means their overall impact is very small. I suppose the new Tesla Roadster will teach us a lot about what an EV sports car can be but from what we already know we can be sure its experience will not resemble a Miata or Greatysix in the slightest. I think these tiny ICE sports cars will either die off completely or become mild-hybridized before they become EVs.

 

[Danoff]

Without shifting in any capacity, I think engagement is limited. I hope somebody figures out how to make the acceleration of EVs more involving somehow.

I think EVs have potential to be just as engaging, but different, from ICE vehicles. That being said, as everyone here has said, that's not really the goal of what's happening right now. You've probably driven an EV go-kart. I bet you thought it was "engaging", despite a lack of shifting. A small, go-kart handling, toss-able EV could be an absolute blast. And they might eventually get to that point with improvements in battery technology. With EVs, we could actually see weight come down, rather than go the other way. Remember the technology in a lot of EVs is still cutting edge, let's see what happens when our wearhouse-full-of-vacuum-tube EV batteries become more like a thumb-drive. They might all be insanely light.

In the meantime, I'll stick with older ICE cars for pure engagement. Even when EVs take over the lightweight sports car (which they do not seem to have done yet), the old ICE cars will offer a unique flavor of engagement.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I think EVs have potential to be just as engaging, but different, from ICE vehicles. That being said, as everyone here has said, that's not really the goal of what's happening right now. You've probably driven an EV go-kart. I bet you thought it was "engaging", despite a lack of shifting. A small, go-kart handling, toss-able EV could be an absolute blast. And they might eventually get to that point with improvements in battery technology. With EVs, we could actually see weight come down, rather than go the other way. Remember the technology in a lot of EVs is still cutting edge, let's see what happens when our wearhouse-full-of-vacuum-tube EV batteries become more like a thumb-drive. They might all be insanely light.

In the meantime, I'll stick with older ICE cars for pure engagement. Even when EVs take over the lightweight sports car (which they do not seem to have done yet), the old ICE cars will offer a unique flavor of engagement.

If solid state batteries ever become a thing, I've read they could be as much as 2.5x more energy dense. My 2400lbs EV Miata example could probably go 250+ miles on 300lbs of solid state batteries...which is acceptable, particularly if the charging times are improved.

 

[Danoff]

If solid state batteries ever become a thing, I've read they could be as much as 2.5x more energy dense. My 2400lbs EV Miata example could probably go 250+ miles on 300lbs of solid state batteries...which is acceptable, particularly if the charging times are improved.

That's more than a full tank of gas, but it's not absurdly different. How much weight savings from one or two electric motors compared to the ICE? Looks like the Miata ICE weighs about 320 lbs.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

That's more than a full tank of gas, but it's not absurdly different. How much weight savings from one or two electric motors compared to the ICE? Looks like the Miata ICE weighs about 320 lbs.

Well I was suggesting that the 300lbs battery was more or less equivalent to the engine

Transmission (~100lbs) + Differential (~50lbs) + Fuel (~70lbs) is probably similar weight to a single motor (~70lbs), associated electrical stuff (~100lbs) and driveline (~50lbs). I think it's relatively on par if you just swap the engine weight for the battery weight.

 

[05XR8]

Regarding shifting or not shifting, being a factor of fun in a car. I've had fun in my wife's of XK Falcon and when J had my '69 Cutlass. People have fun in R35s and an auto Corvette.

Fun factor in an MR2 auto would be it's still a sporting car. Automatic MX-5 owners probably love the size of the car and the top down motoring.
Would EV MX-5 have to be fat tyred to offset the weight?

 

[Keef]

Would EV MX-5 have to be fat tyred to offset the weight?

It would have to be fat tired simply to carry the weight. And those tires would have to have much higher pressure than normal - the Model 3 runs 42 psi due to its weight. That's the problem with weight, everything snowballs from there. An EV Miata would certainly perform well, likely better than the ND, but it's never going to offer the experience of a lightweight car. Every component about it from the tires through the suspension to the steering column will have to be larger, stronger, and heavier.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

In my 22kwh MX5 example, the battery would weigh only 300lbs, and without an engine, it would be on par with the regular ND although only achieving around 100 miles of range. I don't think an MX-5 at 3,000lbs + would really even be an MX-5 anymore.

I would really like to see somebody giving the whole parallel hybrid with a manual transmission approach another go, the CR-Z and first gen Insight are the only two I know of. @homeforsummer said those are fun to drive...maybe an MX-5 electrified in this way could be fun? I do like the off the line torque that hybrids provide. I guess the issue there is that you have effectively 2 systems...which is hardly efficient.

On the other hand, I can see a future where 95% of vehicles on the road are electric (including all industrial and commercial vehicles) and the remaining 10% are ICE. Nobody is going to really lament the loss of an ICE in a Chevy Tahoe. If only 5% of worldwide vehicles (the MX5s, 911s, Corvettes, and Ferraris of the world) are ICE, I would think that would be sustainable especially as population levels taper off. Fuel prices would likely be substantially higher at that point though.

 

[homeforsummer]

I think EVs have potential to be just as engaging, but different, from ICE vehicles. That being said, as everyone here has said, that's not really the goal of what's happening right now. You've probably driven an EV go-kart. I bet you thought it was "engaging", despite a lack of shifting. A small, go-kart handling, toss-able EV could be an absolute blast.

Hit the nail on the head here. An electric motor is neither here nor there for me in terms of engagement, the problem has been that until now everything has weighed so much that outright speed has been the only thing EVs can offer.

A Renault Zoe, a B-segment car (think Fiesta if you're not familiar with it), is about 1500kg, or 3300 lbs. The current Suzuki Swift is just over 1000kg (2200 lbs) at its heaviest, and 900kg (2000 lbs) at its lightest.

The Zoe's a perfectly decent car. But I don't care how much power you give it - it's never gonna be more fun than a car the same size that weighs more than 1000 lbs less. A Honda E is even heavier than a Zoe. Again, great car, lovely interior, nice thing to potter around in. And 100 times out 100 I'd choose the sub-tonne Swift for a blast on a country road.

When technology allows for it, we'll have fun EVs. At the moment something like a Model S is basically just a two-tonne Camry that does 10-second quarter miles.

I would really like to see somebody giving the whole parallel hybrid with a manual transmission approach another go, the CR-Z and first gen Insight are the only two I know of. @homeforsummer said those are fun to drive...maybe an MX-5 electrified in this way could be fun? I do like the off the line torque that hybrids provide. I guess the issue there is that you have effectively 2 systems...which is hardly efficient.

A system like that would work great for an MX-5. It's not really a complex or even heavy setup either as the battery is so small. I bet Mazda could engineer a parallel hybrid ND that weighed less than an NC, for some context. Base it all around the 1.5-litre Skyactiv, which is already very efficient (the 2-litre is too, but assuming here they'd want to go as efficient as possible).

But yeah, I rate the CR-Z even though it got, and still gets, a lot of crap. Viewed as a fun econobox rather than a hybrid hot hatch it makes a lot more sense. Won't suit everyone of course, but the way I always looked at it was, I'm fine with the performance of an NA Miata, and the CR-Z is fairly similar in terms of performance but a lot more efficient.

Though also speaking as a previous Insight owner, I do wish they'd made it lighter. Even a hundred kilos or so would've made a huge difference.

Still, far lighter than any equivalent EV right now...

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

So I was trying to get more background on the Model S Plaid and found this CD article from last year.

It's curious...at the time it was written, the Model S Plaid (not Plaid +) was to have the 4680 cells and achieve 200mph, 1100hp, and 520 miles of range. Somewhere along the way the concept of the Plaid + arrived and assumed those specs and the normal Plaid reverted to not having the new batteries nor those specs. And then the Plaid+ is dropped. Me thinks the Plaid+ was never actually real, rather it was created as a diversionary tactic to lessen the disappointment that the Plaid wasn't going to achieve those specs. I also think the 4680 cells have a problem or something is being held up for some reason. It's just hard for me to believe that Musk would give up the 520 mile range variant of the Model S (again, particularly with a competitor on the verge of releasing a 517 mile range sedan!) unless there has been a serious development obstacle.

Of course, I have to allow for the possibility that I'm reading way too far into this.

edit: Wiki says this

On January 27, 2021, Tesla updated its website to remove the Performance trim and replace it with the Plaid trim. The previous Plaid trim was renamed to Plaid+

It does seem like a bit of a shell game. The Plaid model Tesla will actually be selling is more of an update to the previous Model S Performance than what the Plaid was originally intended to be...I think. My reading of the older articles is that what made the Plaid the Plaid was the new battery architecture...which doesn't seem to be happening any time soon.

 

[homeforsummer]

 

[JC_Dude]

So I was trying to get more background on the Model S Plaid and found this CD article from last year.

It's curious...at the time it was written, the Model S Plaid (not Plaid +) was to have the 4680 cells and achieve 200mph, 1100hp, and 520 miles of range. Somewhere along the way the concept of the Plaid + arrived and assumed those specs and the normal Plaid reverted to not having the new batteries nor those specs. And then the Plaid+ is dropped. Me thinks the Plaid+ was never actually real, rather it was created as a diversionary tactic to lessen the disappointment that the Plaid wasn't going to achieve those specs. I also think the 4680 cells have a problem or something is being held up for some reason. It's just hard for me to believe that Musk would give up the 520 mile range variant of the Model S (again, particularly with a competitor on the verge of releasing a 517 mile range sedan!) unless there has been a serious development obstacle.

Of course, I have to allow for the possibility that I'm reading way too far into this.

edit: Wiki says this



It does seem like a bit of a shell game. The Plaid model Tesla will actually be selling is more of an update to the previous Model S Performance than what the Plaid was originally intended to be...I think. My reading of the older articles is that what made the Plaid the Plaid was the new battery architecture...which doesn't seem to be happening any time soon.

It always felt like Tesla trying to come up with an answer to the Lucid Air,, just like the $69420 price point was. It gave the fanboys something to bicker about, but ultimately they reversed both of those decisions.

 

[Novalee]

Looks like Motortrend had first go at the plaid .

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2021/2022-tesla-model-s-plaid-first-test-review/

"After an exclusive MotorTrend first test of the new 1,020-hp 2022 Tesla Model S Plaid, a car with a promised 1.99-second 0-60-mph time, we can confirm the 2.0-second 0-60 barrier remains unbroken. Unless, that is, you write your own rules"

 

[Keef]

I read MT's article an think it's a load of bollocks. The auto press's hatred of Tesla has been well documented for years and this is basically another smear article trying to suggest that the Plaid isn't anything like as good as what Tesla said it was.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Either way, $150k for a 5 seater sedan that runs circles around supercars multiple times its price is definitely something to celebrate. No matter who makes it.

 

[Vegard]

The claimed <1.99 second 0-60 is with a 1 foot rollout on a prepped drag strip. A P100D reaches 5.8 mph in that first foot, so it's actually more like a 6-60 time with cheater grip. On a normal road surface from an actual standstill it hits 60 in 2.28 seconds, which is still mind boggling quick.