The 2012 Driver transfer discussion/speculation thread

[Tom]

Excellent news. He's my favourite driver so there is some bias.

Sentimentally, 20 seasons would be a great milestone.

Realistically, I do think his experiance will be invaluable to a team like Williams, who are facing a Brabbham/Lotus situation in all honesty.

I doubt that they will go like Brabham and Lotus, they've got great financial backing from Maldonado.

 

[Liquid]

I think they do have the clout to recover, but some more years of awful mediocraty will lead to those funds beginning to dry up.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Excellent news. He's my favourite driver so there is some bias.

Well, at the same time, I've heard a rumour that Bruno Senna has already signed a contract with Williams, but they are waiting for the first payment from his sponsor before they announce it. I don't believe it, though.

Still, life returns to normal in Europe today. The Christmas-New Year period is over, so everyone is returning to work. The first winter test scheduled for the first week of February, but there are only going to be three tests this season to make way for the mid-season test at Mugello - although the FIA agreed to it, the teams are still only allowed fifteen days of testing over the year. So with time at a premium, Williams and HRT will want to get both their drivers sorted out well in advance.

 

[Bobert power]

Well i think Senna could do a good job at Williams. Is Rubens Barichello leaving though?

 

[Liquid]

Well i think Senna could do a good job at Williams. Is Rubens Barichello leaving though?

Maldonado is confirmed as a driver because of his sponsorship money, so the other seat is available. But as the above post says, it looks like Rubinho could be staying.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The Senna family reportedly told Bruno that if he made it to Formula 1, they did not want him to race for Williams, for obvious reasons.

Williams could theoretically take Barrichello and Senna for 2012. Maldonado's seat hinges on funds from PDVSA, and it has been reported that the Venezuelan congress is looking very carefully at the arrangement because it might be illegal (PDVSA is a state-owned company, and under Venezuelan law, no public funds can be spent without the government's approval, but nobody seems to be able to produce the contract between Williams and PDVSA). So if the Venezuelans force Maldonado out of his seat, Williams could pick up Senna alongside Barrichello. However, Caracas has been very quiet after the initial uproar, so I'm predicting an unchanged lineup at Williams.

 

[Sach]

So if the Venezuelans force Maldonado out of his seat, Williams could pick up Senna alongside Barrichello.

I so wish that would happen, even if it's not Bruno coming in. Anybody but Maldonado.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Maldonado isn't that bad. He and Barrichello were fairly evenly split in qualifying, and of the eleven races they both finished, he was usually very near Barrichello (ie 13th and 14th at Silverstone). Of Maldonado's six retirements, only two (Canada and Brazil) were actually his fault. The other four (Australia, Malaysia, Korea and India) were all mechanical failures. He also failed to finish Monaco, but he was classified as a finisher - and his retirement was due to Hamilton's lunacy.

Generally, I'd say Maldonado had an okay season. He was partnered with the single most-experienced driver in the field, had a bad car and only scored a single World Championship point, so it's a little difficult to judge him overall - but I don't think there was anything in his season that suggests he should lose his seat. It's not like he finished miles behind Barrichello at the races where he out-qualified the Brazilian.

I can only surmise that people don't like him because of what he did in qualifying in Belgium. Yes, hitting Hamilton was un-called for, but the stewards decision and their reprimand of Hamilton suggests that they feel Maldonado was provoked. The collision happened in the spur of the moment, fulled by passion rather than logic (like Schumacher hitting Villeneuve at Jerez). And looking at the replays, I do kind of agree with them - Hamilton forced Maldonado wide onto a wet track coming out of the Bus Stop, ruining Maldonado's chance at improving his lap time. Taken in isolation, that's circumstantial at best, but I feel that if you look at the season as a whole, Hamilton showed a complete lack of respect for other drivers. The day after their collision, Hamilton tangled with Kobayashi at Les Combes and blamed him for it without even watching a replay (he back-tracked when he finally saw it). There were two separate altercations at Monaco, a string of penalties and warnings that set a new record for the most in a season, the constant bickering with Massa and so on and so forth. Maldonado was given a five-place grid penalty for his actions in Belgium.

I'm willing to bet that the stewards chewed Maldonado out for a while, but the blow was lessened because they then turned on Hamilton. Apparently Hamilton turned right on the approach to Eau Rouge just before the collision, which the stewards probably felt contributed to the collision. As for Hamilton, he no doubt felt that Maldonado had held him up in the Bus Stop. That much is Hamilton's fault - if he left his qualifying lap too late, gets held up by traffic and misses Q3, then that's his problem. He had no right to take it out on another driver. His offence was the lesser because Maldonado was more responsible, but the stewards probably held the view that because Hamilton contributed, a five-place penalty was enough. Most of the fans don't see it that way, though. Hamilton's fans in particular made a lot of noise about it. But I can't see a single incident made in anger as being enough for Williams to drop him.

And they need the money. I very much doubt that Barrichello and Senna could supply as much sponsorship as Maldonado alone.

 

[Peter.]

Not only everything you said, but the fact that he replaced Nico Hulkenberg. Many drivers had a soft spot for him, after his dominant GP2 season, as well as from his pole position in Brazil. People saw it as an act of evil to drop Nico for a person who took 5 years to win the GP2 title to his 1, and was thrashed by him as teammates, too.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

People saw it as an act of evil to drop Nico for a person who took 5 years to win the GP2 title to his 1, and was thrashed by him as teammates, too.

Hulkenberg dug his own grave on that one. It's not like Williams pulled the carpet out from under him - they did not open negotiations with Maldonado until after Hulkenberg left the team. Hulkenberg was asked to find sponsors for the team - at a time when they needed sponsors more than ever, considering they lost four big ones (AirAsia, Philips, RBS and McGregor) in one go - but decided against it. He wanted to be judged on his driving skills alone, which was an incredibly arrogant attitude for an underwhelming rookie driver to have considering that many long-standing drivers had sponsorship deals in place, no matter how talented he was. If anything, Hulkenberg would have had an easier time than anyone else on the grid in finding sponsors because he was so highly-rated - they would have been falling all over themselves to sponsor him. If it weren't for the fact that Force India is funded very differently to every other team on the grid, I doubt Hulkenberg would be racing for them this year.

In the end, it was Hulkenberg's hubris that cost him his Williams seat. Maldonado didn't do anything wrong, but he's the one taking the criticism for it, as if he bought Hulkenberg out of his seat at the last minute and left Hulkenberg with nowhere to go.

 

[Ardius]

Apparently Hamilton turned right on the approach to Eau Rouge just before the collision, which the stewards probably felt contributed to the collision. As for Hamilton, he no doubt felt that Maldonado had held him up in the Bus Stop. That much is Hamilton's fault - if he left his qualifying lap too late, gets held up by traffic and misses Q3, then that's his problem. He had no right to take it out on another driver. His offence was the lesser because Maldonado was more responsible, but the stewards probably held the view that because Hamilton contributed, a five-place penalty was enough. Most of the fans don't see it that way, though. Hamilton's fans in particular made a lot of noise about it. But I can't see a single incident made in anger as being enough for Williams to drop him.

Don't make it up. I knew this was going to be brought up yet again and yet again the same inaccurate opinions would be given.
Hamilton never turned right into Maldonaldo after La Source. He maintained a line parallel to the curve of the track.
Maldonaldo had plenty of space to pass around Hamilton who was taking a slow and predictable line. It was also the in-lap where they do not need to be going at speed and do not need to take any risks at all. Maldonaldo didn't need to overtake and he didn't need to drive so close to Hamilton.

Maldonaldo drove straight into Hamilton. This isn't subjective, its cold hard fact. Hamilton recieved no penalty for what happened and only a warning for what he did at the Bus Stop (barge past other drivers on a qualifying lap). Maldonaldo was the only one penalised.

I'm most certainly not a fan of Lewis Hamilton, but he didn't do anything wrong that day beyond going over the line when it comes to trying to finish your qualifying lap. Malonaldo had a right be angry..but no right to settle his anger on the track.

I don't think I really hold this one incident against Maldonaldo, but I certainly agree with you that he probably generated a lot of the dislike for him by that action - hardly unreasonable dislike either all things considered.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Whatever the case, the stewards gave Hamilton a reprimand. Why else would the give it to him unless the felt he played a part in the accident? They clearly felt that Hamilton, perhaps unintentionally, provoked Maldonado, and it was that provocation that led to a) the reprimand for Hamilton and b) a lesser penalty for Maldonado. People dislike Maldonado for what happened, but the fact that Hamilton was reprimanded means that the stewards have evidence that he did something and Maldonado wasn't entirely to blame. Personally, I believe that Hamilton mistimed his run, and squeezed Maldonado wide coming out of the Bus Stop because Hamilton knew he was only going to get one run. On a drying track, Maldonado stood a real chance of improving both his lap time and his qualifying position. But because Hamilton was aggressive through the chicane, Maldonado lost out, and five hundred metres later, he vented his frustrations at Hamilton. If Hamilton did not force Maldonado wide and failed to reach Q3 as a result, then that's Hamilton's problem. Nowhere is it written that Maldonado had to let Hamilton through.

As for the account of what happened, I'm not making things up. I'm simply going off the Wikipedia page, which appears to have the official version of events. That might not sound like the greatest source, but the Formula 1 editors are pretty rigorous over there. Especially for something as controversial as this collision.

 

[Tom]

Maldonado isn't that bad.

That's contradicting your own statement isn't it? I specifically remember you saying that Maldonado should go and drive a HRT, similar to his talent.

 

[Centura]

It's hard to judge Maldonado. He had a really tough year at Williams.

However, I will never like him because of:

Don't forget the... murder eyes...

I wasn't entirely sure on what you were on about. Then I found this image:

Do I dare say he could take on Chuck Norris in a stare-off?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That's contradicting your own statement isn't it? I specifically remember you saying that Maldonado should go and drive a HRT, similar to his talent.

Nope. I don't recall saying that.

 

[Ardius]

Whatever the case, the stewards gave Hamilton a reprimand. Why else would the give it to him unless the felt he played a part in the accident? They clearly felt that Hamilton, perhaps unintentionally, provoked Maldonado, and it was that provocation that led to a) the reprimand for Hamilton and b) a lesser penalty for Maldonado. People dislike Maldonado for what happened, but the fact that Hamilton was reprimanded means that the stewards have evidence that he did something and Maldonado wasn't entirely to blame. Personally, I believe that Hamilton mistimed his run, and squeezed Maldonado wide coming out of the Bus Stop because Hamilton knew he was only going to get one run. On a drying track, Maldonado stood a real chance of improving both his lap time and his qualifying position. But because Hamilton was aggressive through the chicane, Maldonado lost out, and five hundred metres later, he vented his frustrations at Hamilton. If Hamilton did not force Maldonado wide and failed to reach Q3 as a result, then that's Hamilton's problem. Nowhere is it written that Maldonado had to let Hamilton through.

As for the account of what happened, I'm not making things up. I'm simply going off the Wikipedia page, which appears to have the official version of events. That might not sound like the greatest source, but the Formula 1 editors are pretty rigorous over there. Especially for something as controversial as this collision.

Why are you referring to wikipedia? Didn't you watch it? And no, wikipedia isn't a source - its a quick-reference. It will only ever be a quick-reference. There's a reason universities do not accept wikipedia as a valid source.

You also seem to either have forgotten or the wikipedia page is so badly written that Barrichello and I think a Force India/Sauber or a Lotus were also in Maldonaldo's way, they were all fighting each other to try and finish their laps when Hamilton caught them too. Maldonaldo was rather distracted with this, which is what allowed Hamilton to barge through.
Not that Hamilton was in the right..but that doesn't justify what Maldonaldo did. This is reflected in the reprimand for Hamilton but a more severe penalty for Maldonaldo. Just because I call your wife a nasty word doesn't make murder justified, eh? Provocation is not enough justification..for there is almost no justification for some actions.

Which is why people might not like Maldonaldo...so why again are you moaning about this? Its not un-reasonable. There are other drivers out there who have committed far less dislikable acts and get far more "hate" than Maldonaldo.

Personally I think Maldonaldo should have been given more than "just" a 5-place grid penalty, if anything just to serve as an example that its no laughing matter when a driver decides to intentionally cause a potentially nasty accident. What if Pastor had mis-judged it? It could have ended a lot worse. But I'm not particularly bothered about it because at least he was penalised at all.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The way I remember it, Kovalainen, Barrichello and possibly Trulli were all on the road in front of Maldonado, though they were closer to one another than they were to Maldonado himself; they were within sight of Maldonado, but not close enough to him that they would have affected him. On a drying track and with Barrichello caught up under Kovalainen, Pastor Maldonado stood a real chance at bettering his lap time and out-qualifying Barrichello, though he probably would not have made Q3.

Maldonado ran deep into the Bus Stop, which gave Hamilton the opportunity to get close to him - but not past. Maldonado still had the racing line coming out of the Bus Stop, but Hamilton was faster. He drew alongside, and pushed Maldonado off the dry racing line. Because of this, Maldonado set a slower time and was unable to better his position. With the way events had played out, it was possible that he could have caught Barrichello if he had kept the line.

The way I see it, Hamilton screwed up. He left his run too late, and then mistimed things so that he caught traffic right at the end of his lap. I remember posting at the time that I thought Hamilton had a "me first, me first" attitude - he didn't really care about what the other drivers were doing, so long as he got his way. And I think that is consistent with his behaviour the next day, when he accused Kobayashi of wrongdoing in their accident without bothering to watch a replay first. In short, Hamilton screwed up, and Maldonado was the one who suffered for it. Hamilton's lap time came at the expense of Maldonado's. A lot of fans might think that that sounds like a fair trade, but I don't believe Hamilton had any right to do it. If he mistimed his lap, then he should start outside the top ten like everyone else who did. This attitude, I think, is was provoked Maldonado - he felt he had a good chance at improving his lap time and his starting position, until Hamilton came along and barged him off the road like a school bully cutting in line at the canteen.

Anyway, back onto the silly season, and it has been noted that Williams have removed AT&T from their website and team name.

 

[Ardius]

Again, I don't disagree with you that Hamilton provoked Maldonaldo and that Hamilton is a complete twit for doing what he did.
But that doesn't justify Maldonaldo intentionally driving into the side of him. Kind of hard to feel sorry for a driver who has a blatant disregard for safety and can't leave his frustrations for later..perhaps privately? No sense and no class.

I love how people disliking Maldonaldo has turned into another Hamilton-bash. What does Kobayashi have to do with anything at all really? Yes people dislike Hamilton too, I don't really know what you are trying to prove drawing up these comparisons.

 

[TheBook]

I think the real question here is why you two are beating a horse that's been dead for four months, but that's just me.

 

[tibiquera]

Regarding Spa, I didn't watch the incident and couldn't find a video on youtube. If anyone has the video I'd really appreciate it.

On Maldonado, people hate him because he got that seat because of money, not skills. So people have a reason to dislike him, even if the hate is exaggerated.

On Barrichelo, he's my favourite driver, so I'm hoping he gets to stay. Funny thing is that all my life I watched F1 with him racing. It would be really weird to watch a race without him. It's like watching F1 without Ferrari.

Also those rumours of Barrichelo staying say that his chances increased after Head left the team. Apparently he didn't like how Rubens kept complaining about the team's missteps. Without Head, Barrichelo could be the one to provide direction now that Williams is having so many structural changes.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

What does Kobayashi have to do with anything at all really?

Because it speaks to a pattern - that Lewis Hamilton doesn't respect other drivers. When he crashed into Kobayashi, he blamed Kobayashi for causing the accident. But he did it before he saw a replay of the accident, after which time he recanted and accepted responsibility. Then there was the clash with Maldonado at Monaco, and the frequent spats with Massa.

So, taken on its own, the episode on the Bus Stop could reasonably be described as Hamilton simply being aggressive when Maldonado left the door open. But looking over Hamilton's season and his constant run-ins with other drivers and the stewards, I have to ask myself: was the incident at the Bus Stop really just a acse of Hamilton being opportunistic? Or was it something more, another episode where he didn't respect another driver? Given how frequently he was in trouble through the season, and looking at his reactions to many of the incidents, I'm inclined to believe it's the latter.

That's what Kobayashi has to do with it.

I think the real question here is why you two are beating a horse that's been dead for four months, but that's just me.

The driver market is dead. What else are we going to do?

 

[hawkeye122]

The driver market is dead. What else are we going to do?

Probably bash on Hamilton some more.

Is there any new-ish news from Kubica? Will he make it back in time to at least run half the season? Is he still possibly going to be taken in by Ferrari?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Why are you referring to wikipedia? Didn't you watch it? And no, wikipedia isn't a source - its a quick-reference. It will only ever be a quick-reference. There's a reason universities do not accept wikipedia as a valid source.

You also seem to either have forgotten or the wikipedia page is so badly written that Barrichello and I think a Force India/Sauber or a Lotus were also in Maldonaldo's way, they were all fighting each other to try and finish their laps when Hamilton caught them too. Maldonaldo was rather distracted with this, which is what allowed Hamilton to barge through.
Not that Hamilton was in the right..but that doesn't justify what Maldonaldo did. This is reflected in the reprimand for Hamilton but a more severe penalty for Maldonaldo. Just because I call your wife a nasty word doesn't make murder justified, eh? Provocation is not enough justification..for there is almost no justification for some actions.

Which is why people might not like Maldonaldo...so why again are you moaning about this? Its not un-reasonable. There are other drivers out there who have committed far less dislikable acts and get far more "hate" than Maldonaldo.

Personally I think Maldonaldo should have been given more than "just" a 5-place grid penalty, if anything just to serve as an example that its no laughing matter when a driver decides to intentionally cause a potentially nasty accident. What if Pastor had mis-judged it? It could have ended a lot worse. But I'm not particularly bothered about it because at least he was penalised at all.

I have to agree with Ardius here, the video in car for hamilton shows that he wasn't at fault. That alone should mean something.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Is there any new-ish news from Kubica?

No. If there had been, don't you think we'd be discussing it rather than something that happened six months ago?

Will he make it back in time to at least run half the season?

Who would he return with? His relationship with Lotus is said to have crumbled.

Is he still possibly going to be taken in by Ferrari?

Possibly, yes. He could also possibly decide to join the ballet. Nobody really knows or sure what he is doing. Again, if we knew something, we'd be discussing it.

 

[Ardius]

Because it speaks to a pattern - that Lewis Hamilton doesn't respect other drivers. When he crashed into Kobayashi, he blamed Kobayashi for causing the accident. But he did it before he saw a replay of the accident, after which time he recanted and accepted responsibility. Then there was the clash with Maldonado at Monaco, and the frequent spats with Massa.

So, taken on its own, the episode on the Bus Stop could reasonably be described as Hamilton simply being aggressive when Maldonado left the door open. But looking over Hamilton's season and his constant run-ins with other drivers and the stewards, I have to ask myself: was the incident at the Bus Stop really just a acse of Hamilton being opportunistic? Or was it something more, another episode where he didn't respect another driver? Given how frequently he was in trouble through the season, and looking at his reactions to many of the incidents, I'm inclined to believe it's the latter.

That's what Kobayashi has to do with it.

Ok, let me re-phrase that question. What the hell does Hamilton have to do with the conversation of Maldonaldo's seat? You've gone completely off the rails here. Why are you banging on about Hamilton's respect of other drivers?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Why are you banging on about Hamilton's respect of other drivers?

Because I was defending Maldonado. Sach said the following, in reference to the Venezuelan congress looking at the legality of the Williams-PDVSA deal and possibly invalidating it:

I so wish that would happen, even if it's not Bruno coming in. Anybody but Maldonado.

I was simply highlighting Maldonado's season, and looking for reasons why people despise him so. I came to the conclusion that they only really dislike him because of the incident with Hamilton. And while it was compeltely un-called for, I believe Maldonado acted in a rage because Hamilton had forced him wide, provoking him to act. And I believe Hamilton forcing him wide was part of a pattern that showed itself in 2011: that he doesn't really respect anyone else on the circuit.

 

[Ardius]

I still don't see the relevance of Hamilton with regards to disliking Maldonaldo or believing he doesn't deserve a seat.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Because Hamilton's actions in Spa were enough to convince the stewards that he played some part in the collision, a part that was substantial enough to lessen the blow to Maldonado. It shows that Maldonado's actions were in the heat of the moment, rather than some cold and calculated gesture. He's guilty of nothing more sinister than wearing his heart on his sleeve. Can you really dislike a guy and call for the suspension of his racing licence because he made one stupid move in anger?

I think the incident with Hamilton is the only reason why the majority of people disllike Maldonado. That, and replacing Hulkenberg. But we've been over that already.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

I was simply highlighting Maldonado's season, and looking for reasons why people despise him so. I came to the conclusion that they only really dislike him because of the incident with Hamilton.

It's really that he replaced the more deserving Hulkenberg at Williams. Yes, I've heard the arguments about Hulk having too much pride to look for sponsor money, etc, but people basically take it as a given that Hulk is faster than Maldonado. Not the Hulk's fault that Frank Williams and Patrick Head had forgotten how to run a team.

Also, I wouldn't discount the Hugo Chavez factor. Looking for help from wanna-be dictators isn't exactly edifying.

For the record, I have no issue with Maldonado's actions at Spa. Hamilton crowded him at the bus stop, obviously hoping to bully the rook for the benefit of his own qualifying lap. Clear case of Hamilton not respecting other drivers, as PM says.

In other news, Luca says he's been sizing up Button, Webber, Rosberg, Perez and Bianchi for Massa's seat in 2013. Notable omission: Kubica. I should think on that list Button and Rosberg are already spoken for: McLaren and Merc have ample funds and engineering talent to keep both in the fold. Webber's probably got Fernando's vote but doesn't square with Ferrari's previously stated desire for a young No. 2.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Can you really dislike a guy and call for the suspension of his racing licence because he made one stupid move in anger?

Yes, because he took his and Hamilton's fates into his own hands, believing that by acting the way he did it would somehow make it better. F1 has no place for that kind of behaviour regardless.