The 2012 Driver transfer discussion/speculation thread

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I'm just saying, perhaps I'm being too generous. It doesn't matter though, because I think I know how Sir Tony will react if he's not performing well. I wouldn't be surprised either if he's going to be kicked mid-season and replaced by any young drivers...

Point is why not now? Why not before mid season, unless the car is going to be better and taking a equal amount of insight to what Trulli wants and HK then I can see him staying. However, why run the risk of one more season when you have four guys that can do it just as good or five if you put in Senna and six with Heidfeld. Also Tony seems to be putting pressure on his technical squad as well. Though the car is close to done supposedly from Caterham and the first body of the next Williams was said to be done last week and the next is soon to come.
 
Point is why not now? Why not before mid season, unless the car is going to be better and taking a equal amount of insight to what Trulli wants and HK then I can see him staying. However, why run the risk of one more season when you have four guys that can do it just as good or five if you put in Senna and six with Heidfeld. Also Tony seems to be putting pressure on his technical squad as well. Though the car is close to done supposedly from Caterham and the first body of the next Williams was said to be done last week and the next is soon to come.

Don't ask me why. Maybe because Sir Tony still has faith on him, so do I but even if they're wrong, what can we do? As I said, I'm just saying he should get his last seat.
 
Though the car is close to done supposedly from Caterham and the first body of the next Williams was said to be done last week and the next is soon to come.
All of them are. The 2012 rules have been changed so that cars must pass their crash tests before the first test session, as opposed to before the first Grand Prix, the way it has been in the past.
 
All of them are. The 2012 rules have been changed so that cars must pass their crash tests before the first test session, as opposed to before the first Grand Prix, the way it has been in the past.

Yeah I saw Trulli talking about that in another article a few weeks back, I saw one of the technical guys talking about it as well but not sure who, that was back in november. So I'm sure the guys were getting to see what their new cars looked like sort of, before Brazil was over. Sure it made them happy.

Don't ask me why. Maybe because Sir Tony still has faith on him, so do I but even if they're wrong, what can we do? As I said, I'm just saying he should get his last seat.

Same could be said for the drivers just taken out of their seats. I still think the best way to do things is have a experienced driver and a good young driver for back up. Someone that can takes the reigns down the road and be just as good or better than the one who taught them.
 
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No. 2nd drivers at Renault struggled because they were always much worse then their counterpart in car number 1 and as results show us, Flavio Briatore acted correctly by turning Toleman team into home of multiple world champions Benetton (later Renault F1) team.

Fisichella, Trulli? Much worse than Alonso? Verstappen, Herbert, much worse than Schumacher? I don't think so.
 
Same could be said for the drivers just taken out of their seats. I still think the best way to do things is have a experienced driver and a good young driver for back up. Someone that can takes the reigns down the road and be just as good or better than the one who taught them.

That has always been my plan. I've actually already said that somewhere in this thread that an example of best driver pairing concept is Williams (2011) which they have an experienced Barrichello and younger Maldonado. The plan failed when Barrichello wasn't really any faster and Maldonado kept making mistakes and more silly mistakes towards the end of the season. But thing is, that is probably the best planning if both drivers know how to work. I can see it might happen to Caterham if Trulli is kicked and a young driver replaces him...
 
Also Ardius it seems your post show a obvious bias toward Trulli, I mean I enjoy Hamilton, but a wise fan knows when to critique what/who they back and get out of the way of blind faith. Just saying

No, you don't say? Blind faith? :lol: I don't see any reason to criticise Trulli to the extent of saying he should be dropped. He hasn't matched his teammate but there have been valid reasons for this. But he has been very close, close enough to warrant being kept on over rookies and pay drivers.

Again, Button 2008. I don't know why I bother really. Everyone has already made their minds up.

You know what? I was never a huge fan of Trulli before. But after the past 3-4 years, I've become a fan simply because the guy gets such a ridiculous amount of negative discussion that I think he deserves some kind of defense.

Whether its "Toyota was rubbish because of the drivers", "Trulli's contract means nothing", "Trulli lacks motivation" or "Trulli can only qualify well, not race well" - people have already decided what is fact without even bothering to give the man a chance. Personally I think it boils down to people not liking Trulli's comments in the press and his rather Italian personality - he seems to have rubbed some people the wrong way because I can't think of any other reason why he has such a widespread dislike.
 


I like Trulli but I do think his time in F1 should almost be at an end. Would not be suprised if he was maybe replaced mid season.
 
Sorry, but I completely disagree with this. Trulli doesn't need one more chance.

This, I agree with. He has had his time to shine, it's time to move aside. As cruel as it may sound.
 
I guess I don't have a problem with Trulli being replaced or dropped...more with people talking about it when he has a valid contract. The poor man hasn't had many seasons where people haven't talked about him being dropped when he is already contracted. Its like people don't believe anyone would give him a proper contract, which says it all really.
 
Trulli's an easy target to be honest. We have a wealth of drivers who have already had a chance but depending on who you talk to, deserve another. Then you also have a bunch of promising people fighting their way up the junior categories just to arrive at the road block. Schumacher and to a lesser extent, Barrichello are spared because of their past results. Trulli, with just a single win to his name, having been beaten by Heikki is the easy target.

When he moves aside, people will move on to Rubens. Assuming he gets a drive for next year. After that, they will move on to Schumi. No one really cares about De La Rosa, as few would wish an HRT upon someone they wish to succeed in F1.

In recent years, this is becoming a bigger problem. Safety in F1 is excellent. Previously, someone would get to their mid-late thirties and think "is this still worth it? I could be killed". Now, barring a rare freak accident (schumi at Yas Marina 2010 springs to mind as does Massa at Hungary, no pun intended) the chance of a fatal accident seems extremely low. It will probably happen again. My guess is that the most likely hazard is a tyre to the head or another reasonably big piece of debris.

So now we are left with a situation where we have 20 to 30 real candidates who could succeed in F1 in the right environment. Some are pay drivers, others are hoping on talent alone and the rest are pinning their hopes to either manufacturer involvment, or a sponsor taking a shine to them(thus indirectly becoming "pay drivers").

It's a real shame, as some possible championship contenders may never make a race start. But at least the world of IRL beckons them. Perhaps even the WEC if it is as prominent as it was in the past.
 
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Funny you should mention age, drivers are on average younger now than they were in the past. All of the youngest driver records of late have been set in the past decade or so, it didn't seem so long ago that Button and Raikkonen were setting "Youngest ever" records. I don't think safety has anything to do with it at all.

I think the problem now is the limited testing and the extreme perfections that F1 requires. Pinpoint accuracy is required consistently and immediately. A rookie is expected so much performance so early that it gives older, experienced drivers a huge advantage when it comes to contracts because they offer a reliable alternative.
Thats not to say we have a problem with new blood though...considering half the field just got canned for 2012.

But I don't consider Trulli's contract a "problem with F1". Trulli is a good driver, he deserves a seat just as anyone else does as long as his team feel he is performing as he should. I'm pretty sure Trulli would realise himself if he wasn't motivated and would be the first to admit he can't perform anymore.
Its just everyone has convinced themselves that he isn't motivated (I still haven't seen anyone give any kind of evidence of this) and that he isn't performing as he always has (ignoring the power steering issue).

Again, it wasn't so long ago that Button was considered a "never-will-be" and "unable to adapt to a car". Then suddenly 2009 and then 2010 and 2011 happened and people are suddenly remembering 2004. Convenient that his BAR years were forgotten in 2008.
Trulli hasn't suddenly forgotten how to drive. in 2009 he was a match for some of the best drivers in the sport. It appears though that he is struggling to find the best from what Gascoyne & Co are delivering him. If anyone cares to read Caterham's press, it explains that while Kovalainen is able to drive around the particular problems with the car, Trulli prefers a particular feedback and feel from the car. Reminds me of Barrichello and Button...or even Button and Hamilton, eh?

But no, apparently this means he can't drive anymore and he lacks motivation. Just as Button couldn't drive in 2008 and lost motivation. Just as so many drivers apparently can't drive and lose motivation when they struggle with a midfield or backmarker car. Just as drivers can't drive anymore when they struggle to switch from one car to another. Its all so incredibly tiresome.

I've loved watching Button prove all this crap wrong the past few seasons. People used to say he would never win, never win a championship, never beat Lewis Hamilton. Well he's now ticked off all of these one by one. It would be just as sweet to see Trulli, Glock, Kovalainen, Sutil..so many drivers do the same if they ever get the chance. Its just a shame people don't learn from it.

Perhaps people expect all of the "best" drivers to perform like Alonso and Hamilton - able to just take the maximum from each and every car they drive. But for me, this is only one skill that makes up a great driver. Its not a requirement. A driver can still be great but unable to adapt to certain cars. I consider Button one of the best drivers out there and he quite clearly struggles to get the maximum from a car that doesn't suit him. Trulli is a similar kind of driver.
 
Do you honestly think Trulli has the potential to do what Button did and turn his career around?

The difference between Trulli and Button is that there was evidence Button had some unrealised potential. He was, after all third - the first non-Ferrari driver - in 2004, and he had more poles, podiums and points finishes before 2008 than Trulli does now.
 
Trulli's best cars were the 2004 Renault, 2005 Toyota and 2009 Toyota. None of these were as good as the 2004 BAR, though the Renault was close-ish. Funnily enough Trulli was performing pretty similarly to Button that year before Briatore came down on him after his mistake at France.

To be honest, its pretty clear looking back over Trulli's career that he is an excellent benchmark for the performance of the car and his teammates, because he has consistently matched and beat them. The pattern shows that generally the first season or so in a new team he only matches his teammates, but after that he beats them outright. While he hasn't dominated anyone (except perhaps Ralfie) he hasn't been dominated himself..except perhaps in 2011.

Yes I believe Trulli could "do a Button/Brawn". If you had asked me in 2008 if I had felt Button could win the WDC I would have said yes. The same applies to Trulli (and a number of other drivers people seem to think are a waste of a seat).
 
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Trulli's best cars were the 2004 Renault, 2005 Toyota and 2009 Toyota. None of these were as good as the 2004 BAR, though the Renault was close-ish.

Aye, I'd say the TF105 from the first half of the 2005 season was. McLaren and Renault were ahead of anyone else in '05 but I'd say early on the Toyota was a clear 3rd fastest car. It still saddens me they never were able to keep the car developing enough to keep up the momentum.

*Runs off to see Trulli's qualifying lap at Bahrain 2005*

Y'know, as much as I hate the Ferrari dominance from 2002-2006, for some reason I desperately miss these F1 years. Maybe it's the Toyotas I was cheering so much for. Maybe it was the ruthless Montoya. Maybe it was the back-then-brilliant Williams team. Maybe it was the ice-cold Raikkonen.

Just for old-time's sake:



I tend to watch this very lap along with my breakfast, always makes for a good start to the day!
 
Aye, I'd say the TF105 from the first half of the 2005 season was. McLaren and Renault were ahead of anyone else in '05 but I'd say early on the Toyota was a clear 3rd fastest car. It still saddens me they never were able to keep the car developing enough to keep up the momentum.

*Runs off to see Trulli's qualifying lap at Bahrain 2005*

Y'know, as much as I hate the Ferrari dominance from 2002-2006, for some reason I desperately miss these F1 years. Maybe it's the Toyotas I was cheering so much for. Maybe it was the ruthless Montoya. Maybe it was the back-then-brilliant Williams team. Maybe it was the ice-cold Raikkonen.

Just for old-time's sake:



I tend to watch this very lap along with my breakfast, always makes for a good start to the day!
That engine sound literally makes me smile. I wish I had been old enough to see the V-10's (First race I ever watched was Canada 2008, where Kubica won) do their stuff. I wish I could have seen the Ferrari dominance of the sport, or when Alonso was starting to fight back. It just looked like such a different sport from what it was today. More exciting and such.

Honestly, I think just about all of the Truli, Glock, Kovalinen-types have the same ability to resurrect their careers the same way Button did. A year in a dominant car to boost your spirit, suddenly a big team notices you, and Wham! Now you're a contender. Kubica had his win in Canada which put him on the spot as "Best of the rest". Renault, having lost Alonso again, but who could bring a competitive car in the near-future, picked him up. Sadly, he injured himself in a rally crash. But imagine the spectacle it would have been in the First half of this season when Petrov was up near the top. Kubica, who I believe to be a better driver, could have been fighting for podiums or even Wins.

Anyone can have a "Button" moment. (Well, almost.) All of the older guys languishing in the bottom half of the field have the experience that if they were given a reasonably fast car, it would make things interesting. But it seems the F1 God rolled the dice in favor of Button in 2009, and not any of the others, damned to mid-field or lower cars.

The cure? Bring back testing. Get the factory more data to test more bits and pieces to put on the cars to make them more competitive. Now, since everyone would have the same testing hours, and some have different budgets (McLaren and Ferrari would make HUGE strides whilst HRT struggled to re-paint their front wing) you could make it so the teams in the top... idk, 3? In constructors standings only get.... 50%? of the testing time. Or something like that.
 
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I guess I don't have a problem with Trulli being replaced or dropped...more with people talking about it when he has a valid contract. The poor man hasn't had many seasons where people haven't talked about him being dropped when he is already contracted. Its like people don't believe anyone would give him a proper contract, which says it all really.

It's F1...this isn't some music recording contract where the guy goes out and has to do a certain amount of time before a renew or not. No, F1 doesn't really give that to drivers and it doesn't matter how smart the driver is in planning a secure contract like you've said. A buy out (even forced) seems to be on the table at all times. Most of us just don't have faith in the antics of the F1 circus when it comes down to the big wigs who decide what driver should drive. Drivers really are a dime a dozen sadly and that's why no one driver should feel their contract is secure. The teams owners are the heart and the driver is just like any other employee really, they just have more limelight than the rest, but at the end of the day they are disposable income to a team that has a pick of the litter.

Trulli is disposable and their are plenty of people to pick from that could do the job of driver at the same pace or better then he did this year. Point is he was no more spectacular than the drivers he's criticized.

Speaking of Caterham I read that Alexander Rossi (the only lower tier driver I've followed) says he is getting closer to F1. Not sure if he's ready for F1 though in 2012...
 
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Yes I believe Trulli could "do a Button/Brawn". If you had asked me in 2008 if I had felt Button could win the WDC I would have said yes. The same applies to Trulli (and a number of other drivers people seem to think are a waste of a seat).
The difference is that Button was matching or even beating a past-his-prime-but-still-super-quick Rubens Barrichello at Honda, not getting creamed by Kovalainen. Button was also at an age where he could have been considered in his prime, whereas Trulli is 37 now and probably well past his best. Some people definitely conjured up an imaginative demise for Button, but Trulli's situation isn't all that comparable.

Perconally, I very much liked Trulli back in his younger days, but it seems to me that he is on his last legs in F1. I don't think he could beat an above-average teammate at this time, let alone a world championship.
 
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The difference is that Button was matching or even beating a past-his-prime-but-still-super-quick Rubens Barrichello at Honda, not getting creamed by Kovalainen. Button was also at an age where he could have been considered in his prime, whereas Trulli is 37 now and probably well past his best. Some people definitely conjured up an imaginative demise for Button, but Trulli's situation isn't all that comparable.

Perconally, I very much liked Trulli back in his younger days, but it seems to me that he is on his last legs in F1. I don't think he could beat an above-average teammate at this time, let alone a world championship.

Button was not matching Barrichello in 2008, and the general consensus was that he'd had his chances and was a laughing stock, particularly in his more clumsy moments that season like France. I very clearly remember saying to people that I still thought Button was a good driver despite the apparent poor results and people would give me an odd look. 2009 was delicious as a result.
Even your words now seem like such a ringing echo of what was said of Button at the time by some people "I used to think he was pretty good but I doubt he'd match a decent driver". In fact - people amazingly still said this after 2009!

Some people view Barrichello and Kovalainen similarly - though I agree that Barrichello is generally a much better driver than Kovy and still is.
 
Jenson Button wasn't thirty-seven years old in 2008. He was twenty-eight. Maybe I could see your point if Jarno Trulli was a similar age, but he's not. Trulli is thirty-seven, and he has been in the sport for fifteen years (Button had only been in the sport for half that time in 2008). Trulli has, at most, one more season up his sleeve. Maybe two. In Tony Fernandes' position, I would be increasingly hard-pressed to justify keeping him.
 
Button was not matching Barrichello in 2008,
In the 10 races where both finished, Button finished ahead in 6 of them and Barrichello finished ahead in 4 of them. Rubens held the edge in qualifying, 10-8, but they were often very close in terms if lap times.

They were a very well matched pair in their time together, and 2008 was no exception.
Some people view Barrichello and Kovalainen similarly - though I agree that Barrichello is generally a much better driver than Kovy and still is.
I would agree with you and strongly disagree with "some people". Lets not forget that Barrichello was as close as anyone got to prime Schumacher and was an equal to Button. Kovalainen has never shown that sort of performance. Just look at both of their performances in the second half of 2009, they aren't close at all.
 
Button has never been that strong a qualifier, he makes up for it on the track with decisive calculating and making good calls. So I wouldn't read into the qualifying times.

Kovalainen isn't a Hamilton for sure so I agree with that and 2009.
 
Indeed. But then again, Kovalainen definitely had an equal car to Hamilton.


Oh wait.
 
Indeed. But then again, Kovalainen definitely had an equal car to Hamilton.


Oh wait.

Yes the oh wait is quite important, I don't quite remember too many second drivers having all the nice aero upgrades as the first driver. I guess Prost and Senna did, but in the modern age that's different. Unless you believe the B194 and B195 stories.
 
The 2009 McLaren was rubbish, and McLarne put a lot of time and money into Hamilton's car to turn the car around and make it a competitive car. Lewis started to win races and take pole positions. Heikki still struggled, and was doing little more than to just bring a few points home. McLaren frequently got into the practice of just filling Heikki up with fuel for a 1 stop, with Lewis getting the more competitive setup.
 
The 2009 McLaren was rubbish, and McLarne put a lot of time and money into Hamilton's car to turn the car around and make it a competitive car. Lewis started to win races and take pole positions. Heikki still struggled, and was doing little more than to just bring a few points home. McLaren frequently got into the practice of just filling Heikki up with fuel for a 1 stop, with Lewis getting the more competitive setup.

True stuff, that's the point we were making in the past post.
 
Excellent news. He's my favourite driver so there is some bias.

Sentimentally, 20 seasons would be a great milestone.

Realistically, I do think his experiance will be invaluable to a team like Williams, who are facing a Brabbham/Lotus situation in all honesty.
 
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