The 2012 Driver transfer discussion/speculation thread

  • Thread starter F1 fan
  • 1,927 comments
  • 117,530 views
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think Alonso is better.

Agree. I think Alonso is the best driver currently on the grid and I am saying that as a Vettel fan.

I agree with this sentiment also. Alonso has the pace and overtaking ability of Hamilton but with the cool head of Button. Maybe 3-4 years ago he wasn't as cool headed but in the last couple of years he's really matured into the finest driver on the grid. We saw in 2010 that is he has a relatively competitive car Red Bull will not walk away with it. This years Ferrari was god-awful compared to the top 2, they only won in Silverstone because the others lost more performance with the blown diffuser ban.

Vettel is good, but we need to see him in the second or third fastest car again, fighting for podiums and snatching the odd win. For a couple of races in 2009 we saw this, but he fell on his consistency and the cars reliability. Towards the season end Red Bull comfortably had the fastest car.
 
Lets make a new thread for this. Were supposed to be discussing driver transfer, not talking about how overrated Vettel is ;)
 
Not in a million years did I mean Piquet Jnr. I was talking about the actually succesful Nensinho Piquet Snr. The World Champion one.

That's alright then. :lol:
 
Not in a million years did I mean Piquet Jnr. I was talking about the actually succesful Nensinho Piquet Snr. The World Champion one.



So you're saying that no other driver can have consistent pace on a set of tyres, put in ridiculously fast laps, have odd rippers in qualifying, extract the absolute maxiimum, have banzai starts, and nurse cars home for points, but Vettel alone can do all of those things? Calling every other driver incomplete in comparison to Vettel, is just wrong. So, Lewis Hamilton can't nurse dying cars home into points, extract absolute maximum out of a car, or have consistent pace on a set of tyres?

I don't understand your logic. Vettel is not a scientifically engineered driver of absolute perfection, made from a combination of all the drivers who are the best at what they do, and I hate to see people think that. He has his own problems. His racecraft could use work, in regards to overtaking cleanly, and he has a tendency to crack under pressure, Hungary and Canada spring to mind. He's also a good driver in the wet, but not the best in my opinion, Schumacher, Hamilton, and Button I would rate above him whenever the track is wet.

My logic? Wha? I'm simply saying that at the moment he is the best, or, he has the best combination of abilities, if you like. Button isn't aggressive enough, Hamilton isn't consistent enough (and makes some downright stupid mistakes), and Schumacher, while he WAS good (and is still one of my favourites), I think even he would admit how good Vettel is at this point in his career. Let's not forget that he is still young, but is now a double world champion, something which Button and Hamilton are not.

PS It's "with (or in) regard to", not "in regards to". Redundant "s" is redundant.
 
My logic? Wha? I'm simply saying that at the moment he is the best, or, he has the best combination of abilities, if you like. Button isn't aggressive enough, Hamilton isn't consistent enough (and makes some downright stupid mistakes), and Schumacher, while he WAS good (and is still one of my favourites), I think even he would admit how good Vettel is at this point in his career. Let's not forget that he is still young, but is now a double world champion, something which Button and Hamilton are not.

PS It's "with (or in) regard to", not "in regards to". Redundant "s" is redundant.



Funny that you list off these drivers in comparison to Vettel, yet Alonso doesn't get a peep, when in fact he is the best driver on the grid. :)
 
Funny that you list off these drivers in comparison to Vettel, yet Alonso doesn't get a peep, when in fact he is the best driver on the grid. :)

Yeah maybe, but he hasn't won much recently. I'm not convinced that he is as good a driver as Schumi was in his prime either, nor am I convinced that he is as good as Vettel.
 
He by far has the strongest combination of speed and consistency on the track, Button a close second. I want to see Seb in a 2012 car that is of the competitive grid position that Ferrari was this season, then see how he does when he has to fight for it every race.
 
I want to see Di Resta do better. I heard he was working with Force India on their 2012 car. Do you guys think he will be good throughout his career?
 
Let's not forget that he is still young, but is now a double world champion, something which Button and Hamilton are not.

Neither Hamilton nor Button have had a dominant car for two consecutive seasons. Regardless of age, Vettel was given the opportunity that few others have gotten. It doesn't mean it's all down to the machinery, but you need the machinery in place first before you can deliver. If Vettel was in the Mclaren or the Ferrari he wouldn't have won the championship.
 
Neither Hamilton nor Button have had a dominant car for two consecutive seasons. Regardless of age, Vettel was given the opportunity that few others have gotten. It doesn't mean it's all down to the machinery, but you need the machinery in place first before you can deliver. If Vettel was in the Mclaren or the Ferrari he wouldn't have won the championship.



I would wager to say that if you had put Alonso or Button in that car, they would have had championship results that were no less. Hamilton... probably. He had some mind games to work through this season, the only reason I would question him.
 
Latest rumour out of Russia: Vitaly Petrov will join Ferrari as a third driver for 2012, most likely with a Friday testing program at all circuits (except Austin), and would be first reserve in the event that Alonso or Massa cannot race and/or are dropped by the team.

I know I posted the Petrov-to-McLaren rumour despite its inherent craziness, but I'm willing to listen to this one simply because Ferrari have done it before. When Felipe Massa first started racing, he was all over the place (perhaps not as bad as Petrov's first season, but certainly not as good as Petrov's second). A lot of people questioned it when Ferrari picked him up, but after a year testing, we had an overall smarter and sharper Felipe Massa. And since they're Ferrari, they're obviously not starved for cash, so they may see the same potential in Petrov (especially given his turnaround over the 2010-11 winter period - you could be forgiven for thinking it was someone else driving the car in Melbourne).

Of course, if this is true, then I'm going to be torn between my support for Petrov and my dislike of Ferrari. I'm going to have to sell one of them out.
 
When Felipe Massa started in F1..a certain Jean Todt was at Ferrari and a certain Nicolas Todt is Massa's manager.

Ferrari will never give Fridays to any driver other than their current race drivers. No top team will do this. And if they did..it would surely be Bianchi.

If Petrov is at Ferrari for any reason, it would only be money. Ferrari are in a position of being able to choose talent, I don't see why they would even begin to consider Petrov when they already have Perez doing a reasonable job so far and they are clearly grooming Bianchi (guess who his manager is?) too. What does Petrov really bring that say Perez does not?
(not to mention Buemi, Alguesuari...even Heidfeld! :lol:)
 
Last edited:
I don't see why they would even begin to consider Petrov when they already have Perez doing a reasonable job so far and they are clearly grooming Bianchi (guess who his manager is?) too.
Because despite having a young driver program, they clearly don't have much faith in it. When Massa's head was reported to be on the chopping block, the first person linked to the drive was Nico Rosberg, and then later is was Adrian Sutil. There were never any rumours about Perez stepping up to fill the second Ferrari seat, despite his position in the young driver program. Even with the talk that Jules Bianchi will go to Sauber, Ferrari are clearly hesitant because they want to judge Bianchi against Perez rather than actually take a chance on a driver they are backing. With the talk that Ferrari are backing Robert Kubica for 2013, now more than ever is the best time to take a chance on a young driver like Sergio Perez. Alonso is strong enough to carry the team on his own.

What does Petrov really bring that say Perez does not?
Another iron in the fire. They're backing Kubica for 2013. They've got Perez and Bianchi in driver development. Putting Petrov in a third driver role gives them an option for replacing Massa mid-season. They've already said that they're unhappy with Massa's performance in 2011, and that he needs to lift his game or 2012 if he wants to keep his seat.

The last time Ferrari needed to replace a driver mid-season, they managed to shoot themselves in the foot. Massa was injured, and the only man they could call up to the place was Luca Badoer. They eventually got Giancarlo Fisichella out of his Force India seat, but it took them three races to do it. If they decide to replace Massa mid-season, they'll want him gone, and they won't want to be left with a choice of Fisichella or Marc Gene, especially since neither have driven on the Pirelli tyres. They'll want someone they can put into the seat straight away.

If Petrov is at Ferrari for any reason, it would only be money.
Ferrari could certainly use Petrov's money, but that doesn't mean they need it the way other teams do. And I seriously doubt the Russians are going to pay $15 million so that Petrov can sit on the Ferrari pit wall for a year. They'd probably get a better return on investment by flushing it down the toilet. So if Ferrari take him for his money, he'll probably get a Friday program going. If he doesn't run on Fridays, he won't be paying for the privelige. The problem is that Ferrari "encourage" their drivers to take a year off once their contract is up, usually to stop knowledge about their car leaking out (it's no coincidence that de la Rosa joined Sauber in 2010 and Sauber were the first team to get a passive F-duct going). But if Petrov is paying them, then I doubt they could bench him for 2013.

That said, I don't think there is much to this rumour at all. One of Ferrari's technical partners is Russian computer security group Kaspersky Lab. That seems to be where this rumour has originated from (although my Russian isn't nearly good enough to dig any further); a case of "Ferrari have a Russian sponsor (sic) so there's a chance they'll take a Russian driver". I think that if Petrov is going to end up anywhere in 2012, it will be at Caterham, replacing Trulli. I don't think Martin Brundle would have commented on it otherwise - he rarely talks about the politics of the driver transfer market, and when he does, he usually has a reason for saying what he does.

If that's the case, I'm still going to have to sell out, though.
 
Since when do rumours = Ferrari's intentions. Just because people start rumours about Massa being replaced by non-Ferrari development drivers doesn't suddenly mean "they have little faith in it". In fact, you said that and then failed to back it up with anything...overlooking the fact that:
1. Perez was placed at a certain Ferrari customer team.
2. Bianchi is sure getting a fair bit of test mileage with Ferrari.
Hmm, little faith, eh?

Ferrari have their usual problem. They only have 2 seats. They want the best drivers in their cars and there are multiple drivers available. Its clear they are looking to get Kubica if possible but otherwise they are seeing how Perez does. If Perez doesn't perform next year, they will likely replace Massa with another current driver from another team..which can be anyone from Vettel to di Resta...assuming Alonso is happy.

I wouldn't say that Ferrari don't have faith in their own young driver programme. Its just unlike Red Bull they aren't blind to the talent already available. They just want a slice of 2007-Hamilton-McLaren pie where they've kept hold of the best talent before they even get near F1.
Ferrari have no reason to replace Massa with Perez immediately. Perez still has something to prove, he still needs to demonstrate an ability to build on his potential. Perez has shown potential in 2011, 2012 is about showing he can improve and he hasn't shown all he has got.
If Ferrari opt for Kubica rather than Perez, is that not having faith? I guess that depends on how good Kubica is when he returns...but certainly if Kubica had never had the accident, it would be basic maths.
 
If Ferrari opt for Kubica rather than Perez, is that not having faith?
I mean now, with all the talk that Massa could be replaced. Ferrari have shot that down, and will honour Massa's contract, but they have stated that they are unhappy with his performance. If they were unhappy enough that they were looking to replace him for 2012, but Robert Kubica would not be available until 2013, who would they put in the seat? All of the rumours - and yes, I know they are only rumours, but they can sometimes be quite telling - suggested that Rosberg or Sutil would get the call-up. And that is the lack of faith in their young driver department: a vacancy, or a potential vacancy comes up and Ferrari decide to put someone else in the seat. They're Ferrari. If they think that Perez or Bianchi are good enough to one day be in Formula 1 and to one day drive for Ferrari, then why can't that "one day" be tomorrow? Yes, they're taking a chance. And yes, it could blow up horribly. But the would have Robert Kubica for 2013 (or possibly sooner, if Kubica is ready). Their acceptance of Perez and Bianchi into the young driver programme is already an endorsement of their abilities. It's a bit of a kick in the teeth to say "Well, we think you're good enough for our team, but we're not going to take you when there is an opening". The entire point of a young driver programme is to find young talent, usher them through the ranks and one day put them in your team. Ferrari would have nothing to lose by taking Perez or Bianchi in 2012. McLaren did it with Hamilton, and that worked perfectly for them. But I suspect Ferrari are not prepared to gamble their reputation and their 2012 season on driver who is only rated as having potential.

Besides, if Ferrari keep Massa for 2012 and sign Kubica for 2013, then they're probably going to lose Perez and Bianchi sooner or later. They can hardly expect those drivers to be content racing for teams like Sauber when they have the talent to cut it at the upper echelons of the sport. If Ferrari take Alonso and Kubica on multi-year deals from 2013, Perez and Bianchi will (eventually) look elsewhere. Especially since they could not write up a contract forbidding them from joining any other team but the ones Ferrari say they can; that's anti-competitive. For Ferrari, it's a case of use them or lose them.
 
I'd love to see Gene at Ferrari, actually on track. Decent LMP driver, see how well it carries over.

He's too old now, but I agree that its somewhat a shame he never really got a proper shot.
But at least he got better chances than some drivers out there - the one that always springs to mind is his teammate so many times, Luca Badoer. His sheer level of un-luck is well documented on F1 Rejects.

Sadly, I fear we are going to end up seeing some this year's drivers in the same light. Sutil, Buemi, Alguesuari, Senna, Petrov and D'Ambrosio have got just 2 seats to fight over..
 
He's too old now, but I agree that its somewhat a shame he never really got a proper shot.
But at least he got better chances than some drivers out there - the one that always springs to mind is his teammate so many times, Luca Badoer. His sheer level of un-luck is well documented on F1 Rejects.

Sadly, I fear we are going to end up seeing some this year's drivers in the same light. Sutil, Buemi, Alguesuari, Senna, Petrov and D'Ambrosio have got just 2 seats to fight over..

I'm sure they'll find Motorsport elsewhere. Probably NASCAR or IndyCar...
 
Latest rumour out of Russia: Vitaly Petrov will join Ferrari as a third driver for 2012, most likely with a Friday testing program at all circuits (except Austin), and would be first reserve in the event that Alonso or Massa cannot race and/or are dropped by the team.

I know I posted the Petrov-to-McLaren rumour despite its inherent craziness, but I'm willing to listen to this one simply because Ferrari have done it before. When Felipe Massa first started racing, he was all over the place (perhaps not as bad as Petrov's first season, but certainly not as good as Petrov's second). A lot of people questioned it when Ferrari picked him up, but after a year testing, we had an overall smarter and sharper Felipe Massa. And since they're Ferrari, they're obviously not starved for cash, so they may see the same potential in Petrov (especially given his turnaround over the 2010-11 winter period - you could be forgiven for thinking it was someone else driving the car in Melbourne).

Of course, if this is true, then I'm going to be torn between my support for Petrov and my dislike of Ferrari. I'm going to have to sell one of them out.

I posted this already prior to you.
 
I wasn't aware we were awarding points for the first person to post something.

No one said we were, however, you in the past have been fast to jump up and say when old news has been reposted as new news. Unless there is some double standard I'm not aware of? Either way not sure why we'd rehash what has already been talked about. Oh and thank you for your snide remark, I'm sorry your christmas may have not gone over as planned.
 
No one said we were, however, you in the past have been fast to jump up and say when old news has been reposted as new news. Unless there is some double standard I'm not aware of? Either way not sure why we'd rehash what has already been talked about. Oh and thank you for your snide remark, I'm sorry your christmas may have not gone over as planned.
If anything, theres points for catching prisonermonkeys double standards or hypocrisies.
 
If anything, theres points for catching prisonermonkeys double standards or hypocrisies.
There are points awarded for personal attacks. They are called infraction points, and if you get thirty of them, you win a ban. So be very careful in what you say.
 
No, I'm not "playing the former-moderator card". I'm simply pointing out that if you engage in a personal attack, you may get a modsmack for it. LMS pointed out an inconsistency between my posts. Your comments were directed at me, rather than at my posts. The exact definition varies between between moderators, that that's pretty much one step short of a personal attack. You play the ball, not the man - comment on the content of the posts rather than the person posting it.
 
Right then. If you saw it as a personal attack, that was not my intent. Apologies.
I think it will come down to Petrov and Sutil getting the last 2 seats. Maybe Jaime, but I doubt it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back