The 2012 Driver transfer discussion/speculation thread

[RTSolvalou]

removed

 

[Hun200kmh]

Interesting that LdM specifically mentioned Kubica and Rosberg.

 

[daan]

Ferrari's driver philosophy was, is and has always been for a driver to have to prove himself at another team

Villeneuve disagrees.

I'm willing to bet my house

I'm sure we can all bet things that we don't actually own...

I don't see Vettel going to Ferrari as long as Alonso is still there and in his prime.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I don't see Vettel going to Ferrari as long as Alonso is still there and in his prime.

Not to mention the way Vettel knows Adrian Newey is the best designer in Formula 1. So long as the team keep providing him with competitive cars, Vettel will stay with Red Bull.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

OMG Bruno Senna is in England!?!?!?! He must be joining Williams then, he couldn't possibly have gone to any number of other F1 organisations...

Too bad he was seen at the Williams factory, did some physical tests talked to the engineers and was said to be well received by them, oh and the fact that they like his knowledge of the Renault engines. You know the ones that he practiced with and raced with. However, you know everything so all those journalist must have just heard bumpkiss, then reported it and had it approved by their bosses, only to have you the Great Oz say otherwise and teach us. I think I speak for all of us as we watch you on your high horse and say thank you for teaching us though.

I know I've probably expanded a bit unneccesarily on your points...it's an interesting topic to me though

Not at all you make some great points and I agree I think we could see Perez there in a few year. I also think that if you get the formula right like McLaren seem to with there drivers, you have a much better chance with WCC and a good chance of a WDC.

Also to others, the Petrov rumor is not to replace Massa, but instead become a reserver driver only. Also there are a lot of things that drivers have done in the past to other drivers that that opposing teams didn't like, but if the money and talent are there then it is business that become primary and emotions are past. Just last year Kimi said he'd never drive at Renault and they had a falling out, where is it now? That must have been one strong heart to heart between Kimi and Renault.

 

[RTSolvalou]

I wonder why Ferrari would at all be interested in the Driver who blocked their #1 driver from winning the 2010 championship though. I hate to whip out the suspicious eye but it could be a trap if true. Ferrari are the most devious team in the sport and I wouldn't put it past them to try to ruin someone's career, although I'm sure Alonso personally is over it.

I can only assume it's just filler rumors to take up the space between real news, and drivers stating the obvious/making excuses (not to mention Renault contradicting themselves here and here)

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I wonder why Ferrari would at all be interested in the Driver who blocked their #1 driver from winning the 2010 championship though. I hate to whip out the suspicious eye but it could be a trap if true. Ferrari are the most devious team in the sport and I wouldn't put it past them to try to ruin someone's career, although I'm sure Alonso personally is over it.

I can only assume it's just filler rumors to take up the space between real news, and drivers stating the obvious/making excuses (not to mention Renault contradicting themselves here and here)

Exactly my point, and a new slogan "F1 racing: the sport of the manager hypocrites...oh and high brow open wheel cars"

 

[RTSolvalou]

I think Petrov should change the background on his twitter, he's still got himself in the Renault 'costume' there, replacing the image or leaving it blank would be a great stir.

---seperately
Looks like Williams are deliberately delaying on the driver announcement, just to put a sweetener on christmas day for Senna, Kobayashi or Sutil (I hope it's not Sutil), fair enough I say.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I think Petrov should change the background on his twitter, he's still got himself in the Renault costume there, replacing the image or leaving it blank would be a great stir.

---seperately
Looks like Williams are deliberately delaying on the driver announcement, just to put a sweetener on christmas day for Senna, Kobayashi or Sutil (I hope it's not Sutil).

It wont be Kobayashi either since Sauber made it very clear.

 

[Tom]

All this talk about Senna being in talks with Williams could be in vain. As Barrichello has hinted at a deal for 2012.

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/175671/1/barrichello_hints_at_williams_deal.html

 

[F1 fan]

I'm wondering how much Raikkonen is getting paid. I'm guessing he's had to come down drastically from his previous request.

 

[Tom]

I'm wondering how much Raikkonen is getting paid. I'm guessing he's had to come down drastically from his previous request.

Probably so, but I'm guessing he's lowered his expectations as well..

 

[MagpieRacer]

There are rumours of Senna going to Williams, but remember, he could still sign as a 3rd driver. Yes yes I know Bottas is meant to be but Senna makes more sense, understudy to Barrichello for a season, bring Senna in for 2013, give him a season to prove himself alongside whoever, Maldonado, Bottas whoever gets the nod. Barrichello gets one last hurrah and Senna get a final opportunity to show his potential.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

There are rumours of Senna going to Williams, but remember, he could still sign as a 3rd driver. Yes yes I know Bottas is meant to be but Senna makes more sense, understudy to Barrichello for a season, bring Senna in for 2013, give him a season to prove himself alongside whoever, Maldonado, Bottas whoever gets the nod. Barrichello gets one last hurrah and Senna get a final opportunity to show his potential.

Possibly.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Senna get a final opportunity to show his potential.

He's already had two, which is more than most drivers get (yes, his year with Hispania counts). And since he hasn't been very impressive, I hardly think he deserves a third chance.

 

[fps_christian]

He's already had two, which is more than most drivers get (yes, his year with Hispania counts). And since he hasn't been very impressive, I hardly think he deserves a third chance.

Yes, I agree. Petrov deserves a seat at Renault, not Senna.

 

[The Outlaw]

Yes, I agree. Petrov deserves a seat at Renault, not Senna.

You do realize Petrov/Renault have nothing to do with the topic PM responded to, right?

lol lol lol...you must be one of those prisonermonkey fanboys.

God this forum can be ridiculous at times

 

[fps_christian]

You do realize Petrov/Renault have nothing to do with the topic PM responded to?

lol lol lol...you must be one of those prisonermonkey fanboys.

Hehe, like prisonermonkey has any fans..

No, I was just ironically stating how nobody cares about the Petrov/Senna "Who was better - who deserves another year" discussion. Let's face it, probably none of them will drive next year because they never really made any impact. However, if a team needs money and they can bring it, who knows, maybe they might have another season.

 

[Peter.]

He's already had two, which is more than most drivers get (yes, his year with Hispania counts). And since he hasn't been very impressive, I hardly think he deserves a third chance.

Ok, unimpressive in your eyes. But I wouldn't necessarily count his year at Hispania as a chance, for either him, or Chandhok, or Klien or Yamamoto for that matter. The F110 was a brick. o upgrades, and was 6-7 seconds a lap slower than the top dogs. You could take a GP2 car and lap faster than the F110 could, at almost any track. Not to mention how undriveable it was, with the drivers having to give it an armful of opposite lock just to get it around a corner quickly enough sometimes. Helium balloons had more downforce than that car did. I'd even say the same for Virgin. di Grassi deserved another year at least, with a car as hopelessly unreliable as the VR-01, and which spent the first few races of the season with a fuel tank that was too small!

Sure driving the HRT was an opportunity, but for what? Little more than to race a car deemed legal under F1 Regulations in a Formula 1 weekend.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I wouldn't necessarily count his year at Hispania as a chance

Unfortuantely for you (and for Senna), it does count. You can't just go disqualifying a season's worth of results simply because they weaken your argument. If Hispania did not count as a Formula 1 team, they would not be in Formula 1. They are in Formula 1, so everything they do counts, for both them and the drivers.

 

[Akmuq]

You'd wonder why drivers go to Hispania as, from what I can gather from prisonermonkeys, you will just destroy your career.

 

[F1 fan]

It's still a chance in F1. Destroy your team mate and others will take notice.

 

[The Outlaw]

Peter, you're fighting a lost cause against PM's rhetoric. As you might expect with someone who thinks they can never be wrong, and runs away when caught red handed. PM will just continue to look at things at face value (despite being intelligent enough to know better) in an attempt to invalidate your points (which are fair enough), to more importantly try and make you out to be some fool. And yes, after a while he becomes far too easy to read.

Hehe, like prisonermonkey has any fans...

At least you have some sarcasm in you

No, I was just ironically stating how nobody cares about the Petrov/Senna "Who was better - who deserves another year" discussion. Let's face it, probably none of them will drive next year because they never really made any impact. However, if a team needs money and they can bring it, who knows, maybe they might have another season.

lmao...bravo!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Peter, you're fighting a lost cause against PM's rhetoric. As you might expect with someone who thinks they can never be wrong, and runs away when caught red handed. PM will just continue to look at things at face value (despite being intelligent enough to know better) in an attempt to invalidate your points (which are fair enough), to more importantly try and make you out to be some fool. And yes, after a while he becomes far too easy to read.

I accept that the Hispania F110 was not a particularly good car. It was not particualrly a car at all. However, I find the notion that any results obtained in that car "don't count" because it was so poor to be a particularly flawed one. Karun Chandhok managed to score two 14th places - in Australia and Monaco - and Senna picked up a third in Japan, which was more than enough for the team to finish eleventh in the World Constructors' Championship standings, despite being the worst car on the grid. Therefore, the Hispania F110 had some value to it. It did not offer drivers a full opportunity to display their skills, but nor did it completely invalidate them. If Red Bull felt that Hispania was a good enough team for one of their highly-regarded young talents, then that alone should be an endorsement of the team's abilities.

Maybe I am simply taking things at face value, but Peter is the one disqualifying an entire season's worth of results without considering the actual merit of some of those individual results, simply so that he can further his opinion that Bruno Senna deserves another chance. The only problem with that logic is that team principals don't share his belief. If they did, Senna would already have a drive.

 

[The Outlaw]

I accept that the Hispania F110 was not a particularly good car. It was not particualrly a car at all. However, I find the notion that any results obtained in that car "don't count" because it was so poor to be a particularly flawed one. Karun Chandhok managed to score two 14th places - in Australia and Monaco - and Senna picked up a third in Japan, which was more than enough for the team to finish eleventh in the World Constructors' Championship standings, despite being the worst car on the grid. Therefore, the Hispania F110 had some value to it. It did not offer drivers a full opportunity to display their skills, but nor did it completely invalidate them. If Red Bull felt that Hispania was a good enough team for one of their highly-regarded young talents, then that alone should be an endorsement of the team's abilities.

Maybe I am simply taking things at face value, but Peter is the one disqualifying an entire season's worth of results without considering the actual merit of some of those individual results, simply so that he can further his opinion that Bruno Senna deserves another chance. The only problem with that logic is that team principals don't share his belief. If they did, Senna would already have a drive.

Actually, I do think you have a valid point to some degree, but you can't discount the fact that Bruno had 7 DNF's due to mechanical failures (iirc, at least 5 of which happened when he was teamed along side Chandhok) in that season, compared to Chandhok who had none. And when fighting for that lucky point (the 14th spot), a lot of luck is involved anyway (mainly as to how many teams in front drop out on that given day).

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Whatever the case, you can't just say "All of Senna's 2010 results don't count because it was not a good car". If Senna and Chandhok/Klein/Yamamoto were constantly finishing ten laps behind the nearest car, then maybe I could agree with it - but there is plenty of evidence that the F110 was strong enough to compete with its nearest rivals, and so Senna's 2010 season should certainly be considered "a chance". Peter. is trying to invalidate those results so that he can say Senna had less experience than he actually did when he joined Renault, therefore making Senna out to be better than he actually was. I'm still waiting for him to explain to me why beating Petrov once in the six races they both finished proves that Senna is super-talented. I think far too many people get rose-tinted glasses when it comes to Senna because he's a Senna.

 

[Peter.]

When did I say that they don't count? I was just trying to say that driving for HRT in 2010 wasn't really much of a chance to form a solid F1 career, or evolve your career. It would be unlikely for you to move up the order after that year, because the F110 was so slow, its only competition much of the time was itself, and only ever the Virgins on a good day. Bruno and Karun could have been driving the wheels off the cars, but from what many see, they were far off the pace, and were little worth taking note of because of their lack of competitiveness.

For all we know they could have been driving the cars like Michael Schumacher would, eeking out everything, but we would still undermine their ability, and because we aren't the drivers of those cars, not really understand how bad the cars really are and for drivers at the front, we overrate their ability a tad sometimes, not being the actual drivers, so therefore not really knowing how good the cars really are. Vettel for example, undoubtedly an incredible talent, but some people are already calling him the best we've ever had. He has done what a lot of drivers could do, win in the best car. He may or may not be the best, but him dominating in what is the best car gives the ignorant eye an illusion that he is thrashing the competition on talent alone.

 

[aarror]

Vettel for example, undoubtedly an incredible talent, but some people are already calling him the best we've ever had. He has done what a lot of drivers could do, win in the best car. He may or may not be the best, but him dominating in what is the best car gives the ignorant eye an illusion that he is thrashing the competition on talent alone.

What about 2008 in the Torro Rosso when he won at Monza and had multiple top 5 finishes in what clearly was not a top car? I think Vettel has proven he is a supremely talented driver, and as he matures he can only get better.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

When?

Here:

I wouldn't necessarily count his year at Hispania as a

And:

Sure driving the HRT was an opportunity, but for what? Little more than to race a car deemed legal under F1 Regulations in a Formula 1 weekend.

But, like I said, I'm still waiting for an exaplantion on this:

Senna also got a season and a half, most of it spent in a bad car beating all of his teammates, then inexperienced, comes along and basically equals his more experienced teammate at Renault.

You still haven't explained how Senna "basically equalled" Vitaly Petrov. They had eight races together. They both finished six of them. Petrov finished ahead of Senna in five (and he beat Senna by four places on average; India and Abu Dhabi were the only races where Senna finished within three places of Petrov). How is that "basically equalling" anyone? Until you can explain your logic here, I'm not going to be able to take anything you say as a serious argument. Senna might have out-qualified Petrov, but that means nothing when Petrov finished the race miles ahead of him. In fact, Senna out-qualifying Petrov only makes Petrov's defeat of him worse, because Petrov had to come from behind.

 

[MagpieRacer]

He's already had two, which is more than most drivers get (yes, his year with Hispania counts). And since he hasn't been very impressive, I hardly think he deserves a third chance.

Not everything is based on x number of chances. Senna is a quick driver, and perhaps with some stability, confidence and a good number of races under his belt he can find some good form and start hitting his high notes. Even at HRT, he could have done better, but in a team who needs money more than skill there must have been something in his mind saying his seat wasn't safe one race to the next, as there would have been in anyones mind. And 8 races in a car he had barely driven, with more than a hint of bad luck and a some rusty race craft from being on the pit wall not in a field of cars, few people would have been able to better Petrov 8 times out of 8. I mean yeah, turn 1 at Spa was clumsy, but if you havn't driven that car, in a race, haven't raced that car at all before, and the first turn you have to face in the middle of a field is La Source, not exactly the kindest return.

Senna still has a lot to show, and as I say, with a solid team, and consistent midfield running, he will show what he can really do.