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But the question is, has he done enough to justify another chance to show the full extent of his talent?
I say no. He's had two chances, and he hasn't done enough. Rookies like Giedo van der Garde deserve a shot instead.
The 2012 Driver transfer discussion/speculation thread
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I say no. He's had two chances, and he hasn't done enough. Rookies like Giedo van der Garde deserve a shot instead.
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You might be rating Vettel so highly because the Torro Rosso STR3 was really not as bad of a car as most Sebastian Vettel fans had it out to be. Take Monza for example, he only won tat race because of torro rosso's decision to spend the weekend working on a wet setup for the car, and because the forntrunners all got tyre choice wrong, and so started pretty far back, which also meant they were unable to fight Vettel for the win. Bourdais qualified 4th that day, as well. I think that the STR3 slotted itself in with the Renault that year in terms of speed, or slightly slower at times.
Don't get me wrong, he is incredibly talented, but that Torro Rosso isn't the heap of junk people say it is, only to help prove their point of Vettel being the best. It's a similar story to Hamilton in 2009. The car started as a multimillion dollar piece of ballast, but it ended up being one of the best cars on the grid, somewhere between Brawn and Red Bull. Some would make Lewis out to be so great, by saying that he was winning races and taking poles with that "rubbish" car, when even Lewis argued that it was not the same car by the time he was winning races.
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I'm certainly no Vettel fan, so don't think I'm biased in my opinion. His 5th places at Spa, and Singapore as well as his fourth in Brazil, were miles ahead of teamate Bourdais who had a 7th, 12th, and 14th positions in the same races, in the same car. (Vettel also had a fifth at Monaco.) People forget he had to prove himself in a weaker car to get to the Red Bull team, look at all the other Torro Rosso drivers who went nowhere. I don't believe he is the best ever, but he is certainly one of the best today, along with Alonso and maybe Hamilton.
Back on topic, I would be suprised if Senna got the seat at Williams. Barrichello is more experienced, and Sutil is faster and also carries sponsorship (though not as much). I really see Senna as no better than a pay driver, and Williams already has one of those. It will be interesting to see where the likes of Buemi, D'Ambrosio and Alguesuari end up. I figure Clos or Van der Garde will end up at HRT, to go alongside elder statesman De la Rosa.
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Vettel is the greatest driver of all time.
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Fangio, Senna, Prost, Lauda, Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton, Stewart, Ascari, Moss, Andretti, Piquet, Villeneuve, Hakkinen and others disagree with you.
If you're going to base who is the best driver of all time off of results, then half of the drivers i've listed above would be ahead of Vettel.
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Go troll elsewhere.
I wonder, if Massa gets dropped next year, will he retire, or get picked up by a midfield team?
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Sorry, I'm just tired of all this Senna Petrov arguement, so I changed the subject.
Probably the latter. Massa may not be the driver he used to be, but he is still a decent commodity. I could see him and Perez doing a straight seat swap, which would see Massa back at Sauber.
Probably the latter. Massa may not be the driver he used to be, but he is still a decent commodity. I could see him and Perez doing a straight seat swap, which would see Massa back at Sauber.
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Your post has no reason being in this thread. We are not talknig about Sebastian Vettel in here, we are talking about the game of musical chairs that is the F1 2012 Driver Lineup. And two of those drivers looking for a seat happen to be Senna and Petrov. You don't like it? That's a shame, carry your Vettel fanboyism elsewhere, please.
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Oh I see what you did there!
Vettel is just mad that he can't be them, it must be hard trying to look older than a 14 year old and getting tips from your team mate on how to grow a manly beard.
I heard Vettel asked Mansell how to grow a mustache for this season so he could go out and beat the qualifying record. Which Vettel did, thanks to the stache!
Nah I think Vettel is cool though seriously, but not the best.
Anyways back to the topic, I think the Massa debate is done for this year and we should pick it up around this time next year. Also why are people arguing Petrov to Williams? I've only seen and heard Caterham, Marussia, and Ferrari (as a third driver/reserve). However, I saw Trulli talking about KERS in an article today for the next years car so that made me re-think that he'll be staying at Caterham for next year.
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Now you're getting it!
Of course I don't think Vettel is the greatest driver of all time. Perhaps one day. Only time will tell. I'm surprised anyone took me seriously on that.
Massa isn't going anywhere in 2012. Montezelmolo has said several times that 2012 will be his judgement year. Though I have a strong feeling he won't be around for 2013.
Also, Kovalainen has said that 2012 will be his judgement year for Caterham. If next season is good for him, he'll stick around. But if it isn't, he'll look elsewhere. I've always liked Heikki. Really nice guy. I have a friend who had a nice conversation with him at the Indianapolis airport in 2007. He said Heikki was a terrific sport, and was nice enough to sign his race program and do a few pictures. I like F1 drivers who are great with fans.
Of course I don't think Vettel is the greatest driver of all time. Perhaps one day. Only time will tell. I'm surprised anyone took me seriously on that.
Massa isn't going anywhere in 2012. Montezelmolo has said several times that 2012 will be his judgement year. Though I have a strong feeling he won't be around for 2013.
Also, Kovalainen has said that 2012 will be his judgement year for Caterham. If next season is good for him, he'll stick around. But if it isn't, he'll look elsewhere. I've always liked Heikki. Really nice guy. I have a friend who had a nice conversation with him at the Indianapolis airport in 2007. He said Heikki was a terrific sport, and was nice enough to sign his race program and do a few pictures. I like F1 drivers who are great with fans.
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Even though it would be common sense to say it, the article never says that. At least not directly.
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That's only half-true. Other than Raikkonen and Hamilton all the other big names started in the top 10. The simple fact to that race is that Toro Rosse had a supreme wet setup. Nothing more to it.
aarror
Small correction here as well; At Spa Bourdais was looking at a 3rd-4th place finish but lost a great deal of positions on the very last lap because of the greasy conditions with slicks.
Peter.
Now you're just being a Vettel hater. Vettel is the best breed of this generation of drivers. Whether he drives a Red Bull or not, I seriously doubt anyone on the grid can match Vettel's raw qualifying speed and his race pace. Vettel not better than Hakkinen? Oh come on. We all love Hakkinen, but let's be a bit realistic now.
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Even before Hakkinen he has to disregard Hamilton, Andretti, Piquet and Villeneuve.
They are no where near the current Vettel, let alone him in 5 + years.
Villeneuve..... really???
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I will say this:
Vettel is a good driver, certainly one of the best... he looks in his prime now. So compare him to Schumacher/Senna/Hakkinen in thier prime. Vettel can't beat em. He just can't. In fact, since Schumi is still around, let's see next year what the racing is like. Hopefully the others iwll be on par with RBR, so then you can see who has the most talent.
Again, Vettel IS a good driver no doubt... but others in the past are still better than him.
Vettel is a good driver, certainly one of the best... he looks in his prime now. So compare him to Schumacher/Senna/Hakkinen in thier prime. Vettel can't beat em. He just can't. In fact, since Schumi is still around, let's see next year what the racing is like. Hopefully the others iwll be on par with RBR, so then you can see who has the most talent.
Again, Vettel IS a good driver no doubt... but others in the past are still better than him.
RTSolvalou
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Everyone will always provide reasons why a top driver isn't winning, and we'll go through all of that again when Vettel isn't in the best car anymore. The unfortunate part is when the driver in question is an annoying prox who just happened to be in the right team in the right year/getting a very good car, it's all the more harder to correct everyone's perception.
RBR can't keep this up forever, things will go back to normal one of these years, we'll just have to ignore the excuses. The bad part is Vettel will just move to whoever he thinks will have the fastest car for the next year, although moving teams is always a gamble.
I don't suppose anyone can find out if Williams have registered any other domains? There was talk earlier in the thread of certain drivers potentially causing a sponsor conflict with AT&T, and the possibility of another sponsor taking over as the main, which would probably be reflected in a new domain for Williams.
RBR can't keep this up forever, things will go back to normal one of these years, we'll just have to ignore the excuses. The bad part is Vettel will just move to whoever he thinks will have the fastest car for the next year, although moving teams is always a gamble.
I don't suppose anyone can find out if Williams have registered any other domains? There was talk earlier in the thread of certain drivers potentially causing a sponsor conflict with AT&T, and the possibility of another sponsor taking over as the main, which would probably be reflected in a new domain for Williams.
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To be honest, i've got Alonso and Hmailton placed on even ground, but slightly higher than Vettel. I do not hate Vettel, he is n odoubt one of the best drivers currently, and an all time great, but he has what is undoubtedly the best car, and is definitely helping him to have that supreme one lap pace and supreme race pace.
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Imo, Vettel is not currently the best driver on the grid. However, he does have the best package; the car, the team, the team-mate and the mentality. This is why he has had such a dominant season. But he is still young, you see him do silly mistakes a World Champion shouldn't do.
One thing is sure, he will become better.
One thing is sure, he will become better.
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People criticize Vettel for making mistakes, yet rank Hamilton higher. Some things I just don't get.
The Outlaw
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Yes yes, after just 1 dominant season in his career, Vettel is clearly the best ever!
Ho, ho, ho! Merry Christmas
Ho, ho, ho! Merry Christmas
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I'm sure that in his own right, Vettel is quick. Notice how he constantly puts the gap on his teammate in a broadly similar car. As quick as Hamilton? No. As quick as Alonso? Probably not.
Merry Christm... Happy Holidays!
Merry Christm... Happy Holidays!
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Button can squeeze consistent pace out a set of tyres over long periods, Hamilton can put in ridiculously fast laps. Vettel can do both. Webber can nail the odd ripper qualifying lap, so can Vettel. Kubica, pre-injury, could extract the absolute maximum from a machine, so can Vettel. Schumacher could nurse dying cars home for points, and nail Banzai starts and overtakes, so can Vettel. He's just the complete racing driver and anyone who reckons he isn't the best on the grid is plain wrong.
I say all that as a Mark Webber fan, actually I probably like all of the other drivers I've mentioned more than Vettel, but I do admire his supreme talent.
I say all that as a Mark Webber fan, actually I probably like all of the other drivers I've mentioned more than Vettel, but I do admire his supreme talent.
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That doesn't prove anything. Buemi beat Bourdais by similar margins with far less F1 experience (Vettel tested for BMW and raced for BMW and TR before 2008). Unfortunately Buemi never had the car to get good results and is now probably on his way out of the sport. Alguersuari also never had a car anywhere near the STR3.
Vettel's results in the Toro Rosso were certainly good, but can't be used to "prove" he is one of the best drivers on the grid.
Piquet nowhere near the current Vettel? Oh dear. Piquet seems to be very underrated these days.
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I'll assume that you're talking about Piquet Jr here. Who was a terrible F1 driver by any stretch of imagination, you can argue that he didn't have great machinery but in 2008, Alonso won 2 races. Once again you can argue that "Singapore was fixed, it doesn't count" but he won in Japan fair and square just one week later, so the Renault obviously had the performance in the latter part of the 2008 Season and Piquet once again, failed to deliver. I don't see how you can compare him to Vettel, once again, referring to the 2008 season. Renault had better machinery than Toro Rosso and Vettel managed to win a race. Piquet Jr, as good as Vettel? I don't think so..
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Not in a million years did I mean Piquet Jnr. I was talking about the actually succesful Nensinho Piquet Snr. The World Champion one.
So you're saying that no other driver can have consistent pace on a set of tyres, put in ridiculously fast laps, have odd rippers in qualifying, extract the absolute maxiimum, have banzai starts, and nurse cars home for points, but Vettel alone can do all of those things? Calling every other driver incomplete in comparison to Vettel, is just wrong. So, Lewis Hamilton can't nurse dying cars home into points, extract absolute maximum out of a car, or have consistent pace on a set of tyres?
I don't understand your logic. Vettel is not a scientifically engineered driver of absolute perfection, made from a combination of all the drivers who are the best at what they do, and I hate to see people think that. He has his own problems. His racecraft could use work, in regards to overtaking cleanly, and he has a tendency to crack under pressure, Hungary and Canada spring to mind. He's also a good driver in the wet, but not the best in my opinion, Schumacher, Hamilton, and Button I would rate above him whenever the track is wet.
I think we all can agree that Hamilton's 2011 season has been his worst season in his career, not in terms of the amount of success, but in terms of his state of mind. Hamilton could have taken the fight to Vettel much better this season, but he feel into a lot of misfortune, often caused by himself, and would overdrive the car s lot. If we had put the Hamilton of 2007 in this year, the Championship would have gone a lot more down the wire. To think that Hamilton was more consistent and mature in his rookie year than in his 5th year in the sport.
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