The 2020 George Floyd/BLM/Police Brutality Protests Discussion Thread

Denur
Allow me to chip in as a Dutchman. You're correct that we are struggling with all three items you mentioned: Colonialism, Black Pete and the racism towards Dutchmen with a Turkish and Moroccan background. We see a change in mentality towards the first two, with for example our King very recently apologizing for our colonial past in Indonesia.

Over the past years Black Pete has been replaced more and more by Smudged Pete, which is now being recognized by our prime minister.

As long as the Turkish and Moroccan governments retain a strong grip on their descendants in western Europe, I don't expect much change in the sentiments towards them. The way I perceive it, we're not dealing with a quiet undercurrent, as is shown in the difficulty their students have in finding an internship assignment.

Edit: A recent article about Institutionalized racism in the Netherlands (in Dutch).
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I like the Dutch, and loved my time in Arnhem, and I'll be back as often as possible.

That said, over the six months there, this undercurrent of racism against the Turks and Moroccans always seemed quietly present. The Dutch have a few different tiers of college/university (a Dutchman can explain this better, I forgot all the acronyms) and it was hard not to notice that where I was at HAN UAS - the engineering and business type university, basically all of the Dutch kids were white, and most of the non-white Dutch speakers I met had come over to study from Aruba and Surinam. I don't think I met a single non-white Netherlands resident there.

Just across the road at the more polytechnic type of college, the crowd was overwhelmingly Turkish and Moroccan. Some Dutch friends told me 'thats the way it is, the white kids go to the UAS, and the brown kids go elsewhere'. This is of course, anecdotal, so I take it all with a pinch of salt.

I'd also notice the younger kids cycling (of course) back from school - two distinct groups, one all white kids, one all brown kids, separated by a good twenty metres. It was this way every day. Being used to multicultural schools, I'm accustomed to seeing white, black, Asian kids all walking together. The separation always seemed conspicuous.

I think the average Dutch person isn't racist in their day to day life, but like many Western countries with a lot of immigration, there are some holdovers from more racist times in "the way things are"

It certainly wasn't I expected from a Northern European country, which are all branded with the "socialist" brush these days (for better or worse), but based on my time in the Netherlands, I think it skirts that definition somewhat. There was some quite strong conservative sentiment, even amongst the youth.

I've no judgement to pass on that, but I do think it's interesting.

EDIT: To add, my student housing was close to several "refugee centers" which exclusively seemed to house Eastern European - chiefly Bulgarian, Romanian and Polish - labour workers. Some Dutch spoke very lowly of those people. Personally I love Balkan people, they can look a bit brutal but I find they're usually fun-loving, jovial people who appreciate life. The prejudice towards them was more familiar to me, as we have plenty of anger toward Eastern European migrant workers in the UK, too.
 
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TheGeologist
Probably for the police to stop killing black people and using excessive force...?

What do you mean "What's the end goal?" Their mission hasn't changed.
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I mean, how do you know when you've reached your goal? What's the measurable outcome of that? No incidents in one month? Three months? Six months? A year? Ten years? If you can't tell me the time period - are people just going to protest indefinitely?

Scaff
Thank you for attempting to downplay the size and scope of the issue itself!

No, it wasn't the case for every civilisation, not in terms of scope and scale of the British empire, and yes it is effectively censured, with it not covered accurately at all in education and the Foreign Office still has a nasty habit of not releasing papers that should have been released years ago and only coming to light when legally forced (and many are still missing).
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You have the internet though, its there if people want to educate themselves. I'm really not seeing how this is fundamentally an issue with education.

Is any disparity in crime, health, education going to be addressed by history lessons in schools?

In 2007 our Prime Minister at the time issued a national apology to Australia's Aboriginals/Indigenous people, but really, it doesn't change anything.

You didn't bother following the links that @HenrySwanson posted I see.
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I skimmed them. I am all for more research into it - which the Lammy review for the most part suggests. And I am for specific demands and outcomes, it makes it a clearer debate. I just don't see the fundamental benefit of protesting against an empire that no longer exists.
 
People are probably stupider now when it comes to these things with the Internet than they were before it existed. Waiting until people get to Internet age is waiting until people are old enough to join echo chambers; and the average person likely doesn't willingly look for things outside of their established beliefs.
 
ShiftingGears
You have the internet though, its there if people want to educate themselves. I'm really not seeing how this is fundamentally an issue with education.
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Two reasons. The first is that not all people do and the second is that what is currently being taught is neither complete nor accurate in very large areas.

It's not far off teaching creationism as if it were scientific fact in school and then asking people to understand evolution when they left. I also find it utterly bizarre to try and argue that accuracy and honesty in education is a bad thing.

ShiftingGears
Is any disparity in crime, health, education going to be addressed by history lessons in schools?
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In a big part yes, prejudice and ignorance go hand in hand. However, it's one of the starting points

ShiftingGears
In 2007 our Prime Minister at the time issued a national apology to Australia's Aboriginals/Indigenous people, but really, it doesn't change anything.
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Its a start, not an end.

ShiftingGears
I skimmed them. I am all for more research into it - which the Lammy review for the most part suggests. And I am for specific demands and outcomes, it makes it a clearer debate.
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Plenty of research has been done into it, the recommendations of that research need to be put into place now.

ShiftingGears
I will look into it. But again, I still don't see the fundamental benefit in protesting an empire that doesn't exist.
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Once again that is not what's happening, its the still ongoing effects of that empire that need to be addressed. Do you think that the end of the empire suddenly caused the Kenyans who had been castrated or scarred by being raped by bottles of boiling water to recover? The after-effects of the empire are still directly affecting people today.
 
Liquid
It's hard to find relevant posts and details.

What's the situation with the case against Officer Chauvin at the moment?
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HenrySwanson
Imagine my shock finding a thread on equal outcomes. I'll post in there about that issue. đź‘Ť
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You do know I literally only wanted information on the status of the court proceedings against Officer Chauvin and didn't want to go through 29 pages of this thread or find a news outlet that is running something other than the wider scope stories that have come since?

I was reasonably sure that one US GTPer might know something save me sifting through nearly 300 posts.
 
Liquid
It's hard to find relevant posts and details.

What's the situation with the case against Officer Chauvin at the moment?
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Chauvin, and the other three officers, are still awaiting trial. However, the Minnesota Board of Peace Officer Standards and Training (POST) is currently reviewing the case. POST is the agency that licenses police officers and if its investigation finds it to be warranted, all four officers could lose their license to work in law enforcement. It's pretty much a given Chauvin won't ever work in law enforcement again, but the other three that didn't actively commit murder would be harder hit by it. I'm not sure any agency would want to hire any of these guys though given all that happened.

Chauvin's next court appearance is June 29th.
 
HenrySwanson
what your views are on the recent SCOTUS decision to protect LGBTQ workers from "job discrimination"?
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SCOTUS came to the right ruling on the interpretation of that law. However, that law should not exist. It violates a fundamental freedom of contract. Also I think that law is separately unconstitutional on the grounds that it unequally applies the law to employers of 15 or more people. Weirdly, the portion that applies to federal agencies does not violate the constitution and may in fact be required to be equal treatment of the law.
 
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Liquid
You do know I literally only wanted information on the status of the court proceedings against Officer Chauvin and didn't want to go through 29 pages of this thread or find a news outlet that is running something other than the wider scope stories that have come since?

I was reasonably sure that one US GTPer might know something save me sifting through nearly 300 posts.
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Sorry that wasn't meant to be confrontational, I was saying that I'll post in there about the issue I raised with Danoff!
 
TenEightyOne
Law shouldn't protect people on the basis of their sex, or am I misunderstanding?
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Laws should absolutely protect people against arbitrary discrimination, including on the basis of sex.... against government. Against private individuals, it should not. An employer should have the ability to discriminate on any basis they choose.

I personally know someone who hired an au pair to help with their children. The au pair being male was critical to them (this is of course opposite of most people's requirements). This kind of gender discrimination is allowed for people hiring one person. If my friends were black, and they wanted to hire a black au pair, that should also be absolutely allowed. That kind of racial discrimination is allowed for people hiring one person.

Suddenly it is not allowed if you're an employer of 15 (in the US). I don't know if, for example, an employer who has a business sending performers out to kid birthday parties dressed as costume characters can hire a 16th employee on the basis that they be black so that they can more effectively dress like Tiana based on popular demand... but that should be allowed. Based on my reading of the law (I'm not a lawyer) it looks banned.
 
ShiftingGears
I mean, how do you know when you've reached your goal? What's the measurable outcome of that? No incidents in one month? Three months? Six months? A year? Ten years? If you can't tell me the time period - are people just going to protest indefinitely?



You have the internet though, its there if people want to educate themselves. I'm really not seeing how this is fundamentally an issue with education.

Is any disparity in crime, health, education going to be addressed by history lessons in schools?

In 2007 our Prime Minister at the time issued a national apology to Australia's Aboriginals/Indigenous people, but really, it doesn't change anything.



I skimmed them. I am all for more research into it - which the Lammy review for the most part suggests. And I am for specific demands and outcomes, it makes it a clearer debate. I just don't see the fundamental benefit of protesting against an empire that no longer exists.
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Did you expect then to stop protesting after one night?

Did MLK get change after marching in Selma one time?
 
TenEightyOne
Not available in the EU... but to my mind the moment a citizen refuses to attend an emergency involving another citizen they should be stripped of their pay and benefits, and then sent home. For good.
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I completely agree.

What shocks me the most is that not many people are talking about this. This is BEYOND abhorrent. This is literally awful.

Why aren't more people outraged by this?!
 
TenEightyOne
Rolfe begins to draw his firearm before Brooks turns towards them..
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Because Brooks has a "deadly weapon" in his hand!

He then fires after Brooks fires that same "deadly weapon". You're also assuming that when he shot Brooks he knew that the weapon was discharged and wasn't capable of firing again. All this Monday morning quarterbacking is so easy to do if you've never been in a potentially life or death situation.
 
DesertPenguin
So the cop gets the benefit of the doubt because why exactly?
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I hope it's not because boot leather tastes good. If tasers are such deadly weapons, then what are the cops doing using them on unarmed people? Why wasn't Brooks allowed the "in fear of his life" excuse when he grabbed the taser? Perhaps because he's dead and cannot defend himself in a court of law.
 
UKMikey
If tasers are such deadly weapons, then what are the cops doing using them on unarmed people?
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And why are the police so inept that a drunk suspect is able to take their weapons from them? I can't understand why he wasn't handcuffed in the vehicle when he was contained - if officers could smell alcohol (and I believe I read that they could) there's no doubt he'd committed a crime, albeit a pretty low-level one in the scheme of things. The whole incident is steeped in ineptitude that led to a murder.
 
Gotta wonder if the guy was white would the dumb cop still be a dumb cop or would the guy have been in handcuffs already? Or worse, let off with a warning and then the cops leave the scene
 
TenEightyOne
And why are the police so inept that a drunk suspect is able to take their weapons from them? I can't understand why he wasn't handcuffed in the vehicle when he was contained - if officers could smell alcohol (and I believe I read that they could) there's no doubt he'd committed a crime, albeit a pretty low-level one in the scheme of things. The whole incident is steeped in ineptitude that led to a murder.
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If you've ever had to physically restrain someone against their will you'll realise how difficult it is.

Would you call these officers inept: (WARNING, VIOLENCE AND SWEARING)

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/new...ooting-of-pennsylvania-state-troopers/216262/
 

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