The 2020 George Floyd/BLM/Police Brutality Protests Discussion Thread

[Danoff]

Not in the UK. If your point is to say this wouldn't happen in the US then fair enough.

Just a gentle reminder folks, racism is not illegal in the US. It's protected under the 1st amendment. No this doesn't mean that cops get to be behave in a racist manner at work, but people absolutely do get to be racist.

My point was in regard to the US. But in general, freedom of speech is a human right, which should be enjoyed by all of the people of the world.

 

[UKMikey]

My point was in regard to the US. But in general, freedom of speech is a human right, which should be enjoyed by all of the people of the world.

Still not sure where your example (which has nothing to do with the US) is infringing on freedom of speech.

 

[Danoff]

Still not sure where your example (which has nothing to do with the US) is infringing on freedom of speech.

The goal of equality of outcome applies to the US as well. And the human right of freedom of speech is one that should be honored in the UK and all of the nations of the world.

 

[UKMikey]

The goal of equality of outcome applies to the US as well. And the human right of freedom of speech is one that should be honored in the UK and all of the nations of the world.

That doesn't really address the question I asked.

 

[Danoff]

That doesn't really address the question I asked.

It addresses it more directly than what you apparently would consider a direct answer. Here's your direct answer: I didn't say it did.

 

[UKMikey]

It addresses it more directly than what you apparently would consider a direct answer. Here's your direct answer: I didn't say it did.

Then your example doesn't seem relevant to the point you're trying to make to me. You're perfectly welcome to your opinion; I just wondered how it tied into this thread and @HenrySwanson's post.

 

[Danoff]

Then your example doesn't seem relevant to the point you're trying to make to me.

...and that's what I addressed earlier which you said didn't address your question.

 

[UKMikey]

...and that's what I addressed earlier which you said didn't address your question.

I give up.

[EDIT] And it still doesn't address what UK inquiries into institutional racism have to do with freedom of speech in the US or anywhere else.

 

[MaxAttack]

Can you bring yourself to admit that reparations are in order?

The UK has denied several big reparations plans down the years - including a proposed £70bn project to move Rastafarian Jamaicans to Africa.

What the UK has done is apologize for slavery, which may not be much, but is more than some.

Looking at you, Netherlands.

 

[Dotini]

Whats the end goal of these protests at this point?

Brilliant question - the best.

I cannot comment on the motivations of absolutely everybody participating in the protests in the US. But we can obviously know the BLM as the most important component of the protests. At this moment, they have achieved one of their most important end goals; power and popularity with the public, politicians, academics, media and corporations. They are mostly all kneeling and yielding to the BLM in every way they can - or at least appear to do so. Other end goals include immunity from prosecution and criticism, defunding police, reparations in the form of guaranteed minimum livable income, and really a lengthy list. There are other agitators at work, maybe even Russians you referred to. But IMHO this is mainly an indigenous, grass-roots radical social change movement which is comprehensively succeeding in an almost bloodless revolution.

 

[Rage Racer]

Yep @UKMikey, it didn;t take long for someone to do exactly what you said.

Of course, as soon as one adjusts for proportionality people switch to the argument "but black people are more criminal".

Wow, wow.
I did not say that!

I just mean the data about people shot by the police by ethnicity per million is useless to argue about the racial bias without statistics of how often people of each ethnicity attract police attention that exposes them to the risk of being shot (because these, I believe, are not equal), and used the FBI stats as an argument. Or statistics are racist now?

Arrests are a crap metric because they tell you who was suspected of a crime, not who the perpetrators are - the arrest figures are pre habeus corpus. You could say that the police are more likely to suspect black people of crimes due to endemic racism, and that this is the reason for that skewed figure.

Obviously you can argue against that interpretation by looking at the incarceration rates for white/black criminals on like-for-like charges... but you'd be knackered then because a convicted black defendant is far more likely than a convicted white defendant (like for like, crime for crime, record for record) to be incarcerated. Interesting.

But why? There should be a reason for this. Is it just their skin color? I don't believe in this. I don't buy into that "white privelege" thing, to be honest. I never lived in the US so perhaps I just don't understand this country sometimes.

I know there is a police brutality problem in the US but I'm not so sure it's racially dependent. The racial segregation was a thing until the 1960's, but that's been a couple of generations ago...

From the outside it looks like if State actors like Russia interfered with US elections they sure as hell can and are trying to keep protests perpetuating as long as possible.

BINGO! I've been waiting for this.

 

[Danoff]

BINGO! I've been waiting for this.

It's an understandable position given past russian actions.

 

[UKMikey]

Wow, wow.
I did not say that!

I just mean the data about people shot by the police by ethnicity per million is useless to argue about the racial bias without statistics of how often people of each ethnicity attract police attention that exposes them to the risk of being shot (because these, I believe, are not equal), and used the FBI stats as an argument. Or statistics are racist now?

And those statistics are useless without examining the economic reasons why one ethnicity is shot more than another. Only a small percentage of African-Americans are criminals so to imply their ethnicity is what puts them in the crosshairs would be racist.

I'm not saying you're implying this but for one person to claim that the police aren't racist toward black people because more white people are shot and for another to justify the higher proprtion of black people shot are because they're arrested more often seems to me to be having one's cake and eating it. Moving the goalposts, if you will.

I don't think incidence of criminality should be selectively applied to one ethnic group as an end all reason and/or response to accusations of uneven policing while innocent people are getting victimised and shot as well.

 

[polysmut]

Whats the end goal of these protests at this point?

Especially in England?

From the outside it looks like if State actors like Russia interfered with US elections they sure as hell can and are trying to keep protests perpetuating as long as possible.

I think one of the end goals is to at least reduce racism. Ideally irradicate it which unfortunately for now doesn't seem possible.

Less specifically than just regarding racism, I'm starting to think that things which seem overly PC might actually not be a bad idea. Many people are affected badly by other people just not realising how hard things can be. Issues relating to ethnicity, gender, mental health and disability are some examples of how we can make each others lives seem like hell without always realising it.
I say that from a position of already being more PC than most.

 

[Danoff]

I think one of the end goals is to at least reduce racism. Ideally irradicate it which unfortunately for now doesn't seem possible.

Through government action? Because... racism is protected as a human right (*in the US). If the goal is to discourage racism among people, great. If the goal is to prevent the government from unequal enforcement of the law, and persecution of innocent people, great. If the goal is to eradicate racism through enforcement of law... hang on there.

 

[ryzno]

Am I the only one who actually understands what @Danoff is saying?

 

[Dennisch]

Looking at you, Netherlands.

Nothing in the past will change with an excuse from current day politicians. I find it such a pointless and empty gesture to apologise for something that happened in different, long gone times. It's better to move forward with actions that will influence the future. Educate people better about the past, I mean, I learned about the Dutch atrocities in the Dutch Indies on the Internet, not in high school.

 

[ShiftingGears]

What's the point of Black Lives Matter protests in the UK?

The country that once ruled over a 1/4 of the planet and has never worked to educate people about its past role in innumerable atrocities, instead hand-waving it away

Is it actively censured? I mean, it happened, but that's the case for every civilisation. Should Scandinavian countries protest vikings?

to the point that racial inequality is pretty much ingrained in every part of the country?

How though? Are your institutions discriminatory? Most non-whites in england are there because of migration since the 1960s. I'm not quite sure how colonies relate to this.

The country that has within the last few years been deporting people who have a legal right to be in the country back to the Caribbean without due process?

Ill read about it.

Nah, can't think of a single reason why people would be angry enough to protest based on that at all and want that to change.

There are some specific examples, but to me, protesting the British Empire in 2020 is ridiculous. If theres systemic racism now then it should be articulated so that it can be addressed.

I think one of the end goals is to at least reduce racism. Ideally irradicate it which unfortunately for now doesn't seem possible.

You will never stop people being dickheads though. You can advocate your institutions to ensure that they are not discriminatory, but if all you're saying is that racism is bad and should stop, that won't happen. So at what point is the message across?

BINGO! I've been waiting for this.

Am I wrong? Twitter removed nearly 200000 accounts from foreign state actors for coronavirus disinformation this last fortnight. Do you think they'll play nice on BLM protests?

The protests werent started by foreign actors but they have an active interest in ensuring that they are as damaging as possible for as long as possible.

Maybe it's already past the point of no return there, but protests are also a great way of spreading coronavirus.

 

[polysmut]

Through government action?

No.
Apart from the government action of constantly making sure government isn't racist.

Am I the only one who actually understands what @Danoff is saying?

No.

 

[Joey D]

Am I the only one who actually understands what @Danoff is saying?

Nope, I totally get what @Danoff is saying. Essentially, it's perfectly legal to be a racist d-bag and the government can't censor you, nor should they. However, while being a racist is protected speech, it does not protect the racist person from harsh criticism from the general public.

 

[polysmut]

You will never stop people being dickheads though. You can advocate your institutions to ensure that they are not discriminatory, but if all you're saying is that racism is bad and should stop, that won't happen. So at what point is the message across?

I think the current wave of protests have successfully encouraged a lot of people to self-evaluate their own levels of racism. That's not an end point where you could say that the message is across and everything is dandy now but it's a sign of a message somewhat getting across.

 

[ryzno]

Interesting:
https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/ge...eves-brooks-shooting-was-tragic-yet-justified

 

[Dotini]

I think the current wave of protests have successfully encouraged a lot of people to self-evaluate their own levels of racism. That's not an end point where you could say that the message is across and everything is dandy now but it's a sign of a message somewhat getting across.

At a time of great social change, even our deepest beliefs can come into question. Seems like a natural response.

 

[UKMikey]

Am I the only one who actually understands what @Danoff is saying?

I understand what he's trying to say. However, I'm having a difficult time placing it at the bottom of a slippery slope at which UK investigations into institutional racism are at the top. I don't think those inquiries were a waste of time or a threat to free speech.

 

[MaxAttack]

Nothing in the past will change with an excuse from current day politicians. I find it such a pointless and empty gesture to apologise for something that happened in different, long gone times. It's better to move forward with actions that will influence the future. Educate people better about the past, I mean, I learned about the Dutch atrocities in the Dutch Indies on the Internet, not in high school.

You're, of course, absolutely right. It's the same reasoning with which we (the UK) denied the reparations I mentioned previously.

It was just something I didn't really know about the Netherlands - I knew the country was involved in colonialism, and slavery of course, but the extent had escaped me, and the topic seems... Contentious to this day, at least in my conversations with Dutchies, racism and the legacy of colonialism seem like very relevant things.

I popped into a coop around November, probably for rizlas and chocomel, when I ran into six little chaps in what can only be described as blackface. I had been forewarned of the Black Pete tradition, and I didn't really think anything of it, but seeing it in person, it made a lot of sense why a lot of people really don't like that.

I didn't mean to dunk on the Dutch with my original comment, it was more of an offhanded way of ridiculing the idea of the 'slavery apology' and even reparations to a degree. But I think I certainly encountered more racism - more of a quiet undercurrent against Turkish and Moroccan immigrants, to be quite honest - in my time in the Netherlands than I expected to. The Dutch history, in South Africa, in the Dutch Indies, Surinam, etc, is just as ugly as everybody else's...


...but the Belgians one-upped everyone.

 

[Scaff]

Is it actively censured? I mean, it happened, but that's the case for every civilisation. Should Scandinavian countries protest vikings?

Thank you for attempting to downplay the size and scope of the issue itself!

No, it wasn't the case for every civilisation, not in terms of scope and scale of the British empire, and yes it is effectively censured, with it not covered accurately at all in education and the Foreign Office still has a nasty habit of not releasing papers that should have been released years ago and only coming to light when legally forced (and many are still missing).

How though? Are your institutions discriminatory?

You didn't bother following the links that @HenrySwanson posted I see.

Most non-whites in england are there because of migration since the 1960s. I'm not quite sure how colonies relate to this.

Where on earth do you think they came from? The majority of the post-war immigration came from former UK colonies, deliberately driven by the UK government to try and fill low-paid jobs due to losses from WW2. and it didn't start in the 1960's it started in earnest from 1947 when the British partition of India caused the deaths of millions when we abandoned the country. Its a subject I very well versed in given that my mother-in-law is one of those people.

Ill read about it.

Please do, as you will see why it's still a very relevant subject, with the government still discriminating against them.

There are some specific examples, but to me, protesting the British Empire in 2020 is ridiculous. If theres systemic racism now then it should be articulated so that it can be addressed.

Why is it? You're inferring this is some distant past when the last part of that empire didn't leave until 1997 (Hong Kong).

Let's take a look when it ended by region (roughly):

Asia: 1947 to 1997
Africa: 1950 tp 1980
Mediteranian: 1950 to 1955
Caribbean: 1961 to 1981
Pacific: 1970 to 1980

This is not outside living memory, just about every member here will have relatives for whom the empire and its scale was a fact in living memory. Hell I'm old enough for all but one of the above list to be within my own lifetime. The British government was running camps in Kenya in the 50's that were comparable to Nazi concentration camps (and that is not an exaggeration - the scale was different, but the methodology and techniques used disturbingly similar).

You literally can not resolve systematic racism in the UK (and many other parts of the former empire) without addressing the legacy and real history of the empire.

Give this a read, its an excellent book on the subject:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1473661234/?tag=gtplanetuk-20

 

[TheGeologist]

Whats the end goal of these protests at this point?

Probably for the police to stop killing black people and using excessive force...?

What do you mean "What's the end goal?" Their mission hasn't changed.

 

[Denur]

It was just something I didn't really know about the Netherlands - I knew the country was involved in colonialism, and slavery of course, but the extent had escaped me, and the topic seems... Contentious to this day, at least in my conversations with Dutchies, racism and the legacy of colonialism seem like very relevant things.

I popped into a coop around November, probably for rizlas and chocomel, when I ran into six little chaps in what can only be described as blackface. I had been forewarned of the Black Pete tradition, and I didn't really think anything of it, but seeing it in person, it made a lot of sense why a lot of people really don't like that.

I didn't mean to dunk on the Dutch with my original comment, it was more of an offhanded way of ridiculing the idea of the 'slavery apology' and even reparations to a degree. But I think I certainly encountered more racism - more of a quiet undercurrent against Turkish and Moroccan immigrants, to be quite honest - in my time in the Netherlands than I expected to. The Dutch history, in South Africa, in the Dutch Indies, Surinam, etc, is just as ugly as everybody else's...

Allow me to chip in as a Dutchman. You're correct that we are struggling with all three items you mentioned: Colonialism, Black Pete and the racism towards Dutchmen with a Turkish and Moroccan background. We see a change in mentality towards the first two, with for example our King very recently apologizing for our colonial past in Indonesia.

Over the past years Black Pete has been replaced more and more by Smudged Pete, which is now being recognized by our prime minister.

As long as the Turkish and Moroccan governments retain a strong grip on their descendants in western Europe, I don't expect much change in the sentiments towards them. The way I perceive it, we're not dealing with a quiet undercurrent, as is shown in the difficulty their students have in finding an internship assignment.

Edit: A recent article about Institutionalized racism in the Netherlands (in Dutch).

 

[HenrySwanson]

Equality of outcome should not be the goal of the government.

I agree to an extent, but I'm wondering based on this statement:

Through government action? Because... racism is protected as a human right (*in the US). If the goal is to discourage racism among people, great. If the goal is to prevent the government from unequal enforcement of the law, and persecution of innocent people, great. If the goal is to eradicate racism through enforcement of law... hang on there.

what your views are on the recent SCOTUS decision to protect LGBTQ workers from "job discrimination"?

 

[Liquid]

It's hard to find relevant posts and details.

What's the situation with the case against Officer Chauvin at the moment?