The definitive GT5 transmission tuning guide.

[TT3AZ]

yes. real world dyno sheets plot rpm vs torque.

i suspect the graphs in gt5 are accurate however there is no scale (you have to separate the hp and torque curves) and obviously no detailed rpm vs torque numbers other than peak. hopefully PD addresses this as that would take transmission tuning to the next level in the game.

I have made a more detailed graph of the dyno for the Supra RZ, and it helped me determine gear ratio for 6th gear. I come to conclusion that under 7000 rpm, or 7100rpm is a good rpm to be on, because after 7000-7100rpm the hp drops = you wont achieve that high top speed. The graph in gt5 for Supra RZ is from 0-7900rpm, and i have made it more detailed with more rpm ranges.

Important thing is, shorter gear = more tq output in total, but higher rpm in 6th gear = youre past 7000rpm in that gear = lower top speed. Longer gear = lower amount of tq output in total, but lower rpm in 6th gear = youre below 7000rpm, or exactly at 7000rpm when exit the tunnel on ssr7 = higher top speed.

Note: The peak tq is 638ftlb@4900rpm, and 725hp@6900rpm. So the question is, which is more important for higher top speed while beeing able to accelerate to it relative fast? Well it depends on the tq/hp curve, and it is proven that making last gear longer on certain cars will make you hit higher top speed. Thats because the hp drops to much after the peak hp rpm.

 

[G54Bhaus]

you guys are serious about this transmission stuff...

 

[Basilea]

@ OP do you still work on a calculator?

 

[grenadeshark]

@ OP do you still work on a calculator?

I made it work for my uses, but it never got to the point of where anyone could pick it up and use it (still very rough). After all the negativity in this thread, I decided it wasn't worth the effort.

 

[TT3AZ]

I have made a more detailed graph of the dyno for the Supra RZ, and it helped me determine gear ratio for 6th gear. I come to conclusion that under 7000 rpm, or 7100rpm is a good rpm to be on, because after 7000-7100rpm the hp drops = you wont achieve that high top speed. The graph in gt5 for Supra RZ is from 0-7900rpm, and i have made it more detailed with more rpm ranges.

Important thing is, shorter gear = more tq output in total, but higher rpm in 6th gear = youre past 7000rpm in that gear = lower top speed. Longer gear = lower amount of tq output in total, but lower rpm in 6th gear = youre below 7000rpm, or exactly at 7000rpm when exit the tunnel on ssr7 = higher top speed.

Note: The peak tq is 638ftlb@4900rpm, and 725hp@6900rpm. So the question is, which is more important for higher top speed while beeing able to accelerate to it relative fast? Well it depends on the tq/hp curve, and it is proven that making last gear longer on certain cars will make you hit higher top speed. Thats because the hp drops to much after the peak hp rpm.

Well, this was my theory, and it have worked well. But my question is, shouldnt you be faster if you make your last gear shorter, and the other gears as well, since shorter gears = faster acceleration. The question is, which is ideal rpm to be on, when you exit the tunnel? Same for 1/4 mile at indy, lets say you use 4 gears out of 6, which rpm should you be on when you cross the line? The goal is to come there in the shortest amount of time. Also, is it a good ide to use as many gears as posible for 1/4 mile, because the more gears you use, the more close geared transmission you get = faster acceleration?

Any advice on this?

 

[grenadeshark]

Well, this was my theory, and it have worked well. But my question is, shouldnt you be faster if you make your last gear shorter, and the other gears as well, since shorter gears = faster acceleration. The question is, which is ideal rpm to be on, when you exit the tunnel? Same for 1/4 mile at indy, lets say you use 4 gears out of 6, which rpm should you be on when you cross the line? The goal is to come there in the shortest amount of time. Also, is it a good ide to use as many gears as posible for 1/4 mile, because the more gears you use, the more close geared transmission you get = faster acceleration?

Any advice on this?

My best advice as far as tuning without numbers is to look at the HP/RPM band of the car very carefully. Your statements all make sense in a vortex where every car has the same powerband. But, when we see that there is different power bands, those statements become more and less true.

Example. I currently have a detuned car that I run an extremely short set of gears 1-5th to get good acceleration. Since the powerband is so flat because of detuning, i am able to shorten or lengthen the final gear as much as I want to get whatever top speed I want.

This wouldn't work with an overly peaky car. Peaky cars in general due better with closer transmission ratios. There is little options in tuning as you only have a marginal power band to work with.

The real question to both of these examples is which is better? In general, a peaky card with close transmission ratios will out accelerate a detuned car with a lengthened final gear. But, depending on the track and the circumstances of acceleration, you could go either way.

As far as using the most gears as possible, that theory is true in theory alone. Think of a track like Tskuba (spelling?). Depending on whether you are having traction problems coming out of the slow turns, you could want a flatter power band with more torque or a peakier one that keeps you in the top of the RPM range.

As far as what RPM you should be at on any track. The general racing theory is you should hit your max speed at the max power in your final gear on the longest straight of the track.

 

[TT3AZ]

My best advice as far as tuning without numbers is to look at the HP/RPM band of the car very carefully. Your statements all make sense in a vortex where every car has the same powerband. But, when we see that there is different power bands, those statements become more and less true.

Example. I currently have a detuned car that I run an extremely short set of gears 1-5th to get good acceleration. Since the powerband is so flat because of detuning, i am able to shorten or lengthen the final gear as much as I want to get whatever top speed I want.

This wouldn't work with an overly peaky car. Peaky cars in general due better with closer transmission ratios. There is little options in tuning as you only have a marginal power band to work with.

The real question to both of these examples is which is better? In general, a peaky card with close transmission ratios will out accelerate a detuned car with a lengthened final gear. But, depending on the track and the circumstances of acceleration, you could go either way.

Hmm, max speed at max power, how do i determine that? Because as far as i know, i hit the highest amount of speed at the exit of the tunnel when my rpm is on peak hp rpm. But is top speed to a certain distance really that important? Or can you hit a lower speed, but reach the distance in less amount of time? I need a good theory on this one.

As far as using the most gears as possible, that theory is true in theory alone. Think of a track like Tskuba (spelling?). Depending on whether you are having traction problems coming out of the slow turns, you could want a flatter power band with more torque or a peakier one that keeps you in the top of the RPM range.

As far as what RPM you should be at on any track. The general racing theory is you should hit your max speed at the max power in your final gear on the longest straight of the track.

Okay, but it becomes harder when you only concentrate on drag racing, and not circuit racing. Because we dont have a timing system for straight line. I have run the same car with both a little bit longer gears, and shorter, and the results is almost the same, or even very flawed if you use a stopwatch.

I wish there were a 2 mile straight with timing, like there were in previous games. As you wrote, the different gearing all depends on the hp/rpm graph of the cars, and that is, you cant apply one specific rule of gearing to all cars....

 

[grenadeshark]

Okay, but it becomes harder when you only concentrate on drag racing, and not circuit racing. Because we dont have a timing system for straight line. I have run the same car with both a little bit longer gears, and shorter, and the results is almost the same, or even very flawed if you use a stopwatch.

I wish there were a 2 mile straight with timing, like there were in previous games. As you wrote, the different gearing all depends on the hp/rpm graph of the cars, and that is, you cant apply one specific rule of gearing to all cars....

Well the fastest drag cars in the world are only two gears with expansive power bands.

The ability to detune in this game really messes with real life tuning principles. You can do a lot with a car engine wise that just isn't possible in real life.

I use daytona circle track to tune just for speed. You always start at the same place already moving. You then have the ability to watch your ghost and compare to your previous runs.

 

[grenadeshark]

Tuning advice updated. Try it out, it may just work for you!

 

[Benz-27]

I would trust this, grenade knows what he's doing. He tuned just my transmission and took off about 2 seconds of my time, and my car handled better.

 

[grenadeshark]

I would trust this, grenade knows what he's doing. He tuned just my transmission and took off about 2 seconds of my time, and my car handled better.

Thanks for the Kudos.

 

[AssassinTuner]

Grenadeshark, I'm working on something and would like to toss some ideas your way. I've already put together a pretty sweet gear calculator. I'm now working on an adjuster that adjust the individual gears by mph. For example if your maxing out 2nd at 78mph and want to push the gear to 80mph.

It works perfect, however I wanted some opinions on how it should impact the before and after gears.

Should I calibrate it to also adjust the before and after gears or leave them alone. I could have it add or remove half of what's added, for example adding 4mph to 2nd gear will adjust 1st and 3rd gears by 2mph.

Do you think adjusting the before and after gears is a good idea? If so what's your opinion on how it should effect them?

 

[grenadeshark]

Grenadeshark, I'm working on something and would like to toss some ideas your way. I've already put together a pretty sweet gear calculator. I'm now working on an adjuster that adjust the individual gears by mph. For example if your maxing out 2nd at 78mph and want to push the gear to 80mph.

It works perfect, however I wanted some opinions on how it should impact the before and after gears.

Should I calibrate it to also adjust the before and after gears or leave them alone. I could have it add or remove half of what's added, for example adding 4mph to 2nd gear will adjust 1st and 3rd gears by 2mph.

Do you think adjusting the before and after gears is a good idea? If so what's your opinion on how it should effect them?

Well, the main idea when stretching a gear is to make it fit a particular course better. Like you said, you could change only that gear or you could change the gear before it as well.

The gear after the gear you are in does not effect the max speed available in your current gear.

In other words, messing with 3rd gear won't effect 2nd gear at all. Now, messing with 1st gear will absolutely effect 2nd gear.

Now if you are trying to keep the rate of change between gears the same, then you should absolutely change 1st and 3rd gear when you change 2nd. But, you also need to slightly change 4th- final gear as well.

Honestly, my solution to your problem would be to have two options. One for changing 2nd gear for one course, which the individual player should be able to do without a spread sheet.

The second solution is the permanent 2nd gear change which should push the gears after the one you change by some percentage depending on what you are trying to accomplish.

I really don't know how your gear calculator works so it's hard to understand exactly what you are trying to accomplish and what tools you have at your disposal.

What does your gear calculator do exactly?

 

[AssassinTuner]

Well, the main idea when stretching a gear is to make it fit a particular course better. Like you said, you could change only that gear or you could change the gear before it as well.

The gear after the gear you are in does not effect the max speed available in your current gear.

In other words, messing with 3rd gear won't effect 2nd gear at all. Now, messing with 1st gear will absolutely effect 2nd gear.

Now if you are trying to keep the rate of change between gears the same, then you should absolutely change 1st and 3rd gear when you change 2nd. But, you also need to slightly change 4th- final gear as well.

Honestly, my solution to your problem would be to have two options. One for changing 2nd gear for one course, which the individual player should be able to do without a spread sheet.

The second solution is the permanent 2nd gear change which should push the gears after the one you change by some percentage depending on what you are trying to accomplish.

I really don't know how your gear calculator works so it's hard to understand exactly what you are trying to accomplish and what tools you have at your disposal.

What does your gear calculator do exactly?

The calculator takes the max speed of the car and progressively spaces the gears down from that using engine speed limit. It then factors in the peak hp rpm and re-calibrates them based on that. I've tested using progressively increasing spacing, progressively decreasing spacing, equal spacing and equal rpm drop. I've settled on what I found works best.

The benefit of the adjuster, is it takes out the guessing game for individual gears max speed Tuning. You can adjust the gear by mph and it will give you the new gear value. In game you don't see the speed or how much your effecting the max speed when adjusting, you have to do trial and error just using the in game sliders. It's to make it easier and more precise they the in game guessing game if gear tuning.

Example my calculator gives the exact speed you get at red line (or rev limiter, users choice) let's say 2nd gear hits 76mph. In order to have 2nd go to 80mph, You just input 4mph into the adjuster and it will give the gear ratio for 2nd that will max out at 80mph.

It's been refined over and over each time getting better and better. I'm finished with the base calculator, now working on the adjuster to make tailoring the gears to specific tracks easier.

I'm thinking it might be best to leave it affect only the gear being adjusted leaving the before and after gears to be adjusted by the user if need be, each gear is adjustable individually by mph.

 

[grenadeshark]

The calculator takes the max speed of the car and progressively spaces the gears down from that using engine speed limit. It then factors in the peak hp rpm and re-calibrates them based on that.

The benefit of the adjuster, is it takes out the guessing game for individual gears max speed Tuning. You can adjust the gear by mph and it will give you the new gear value. In game you don't see the speed or how much your effecting the max speed when adjusting, you have to do trial and error just using the in game sliders. It's to make it easier and more precise they the in game guessing game if gear tuning.

Example my calculator gives the exact speed you get at red line (or rev limiter, users choice) let's say 2nd gear hits 76mph. In order to have 2nd go to 80mph, You just input 4mph into the adjuster and it will give the gear ratio for 2nd that will max out at 80mph.

It's been refined over and over each time getting better and better. I'm finished with the base calculator, now working on the adjuster to make tailoring the gears to specific tracks easier.

I'm thinking it might be best to leave it affect only the gear being adjusted leaving the before and after gears to be adjusted by the user if need be.

I am not trying to take any wind out of your sails, but isn't that basically what the in game transmission tuner does?

I like the idea of setting a speed and getting ratios, but if you don't take into account the power band, you will never get a good transmission tune.

In game, you do see your final top speed. You just have to understand that is based off of no wind resistance.

Btw, how are you calculating MPH without tire sizes? I have never really tried, but unless every tire size is the same in this game, it wouldn't be possible from what I know to calculate MPH in a gear without physically testing it (without the tire size).
Can you calculate each individuals gears max speed just by the top speed rating in the transmission menu?

 

[AssassinTuner]

I am not trying to take any wind out of your sails, but isn't that basically what the in game transmission tuner does?

I like the idea of setting a speed and getting ratios, but if you don't take into account the power band, you will never get a good transmission tune.

In game, you do see your final top speed. You just have to understand that is based off of no wind resistance.

Btw, how are you calculating MPH without tire sizes? I have never really tried, but unless every tire size is the same in this game, it wouldn't be possible from what I know to calculate MPH in a gear without physically testing it (without the tire size).
Can you calculate each individuals gears max speed just by the top speed rating in the transmission menu?

I've not only been able to calculate the rolling radius of any GT5 car (they vary from car to car), I also calculate the increasing rolling resistance & wind resistance (they are reflective as a combined resistance), my calculator factors that in for it's calculations.

I certainly do take the powerband into account (that's where the spacing based off max speed/max engine speed then re-adjusted to peak HP comes in) it's important, but not as much as you would think. My Tuner gives 3 FD's one for best acceleration, one for max speed (this is maximizing the use of the power band) and a third that sits in the middle. It takes stretching the gears, spacing them progressively further away from each other (making them accelerate slower) to get ALL the power band useable in each gear without calculating shift points. When if you gear them closer you get better acceleration from the gears, with proper spacing (this took Months of testing to get right) I found the rpm drop to be perfect and relatively equal. Maximizing the use of the power band perfectly.

Q: Is this the same as the in game slider?

Not really. One of the in game Top Speed Slider settings is pretty damn close when coupled to the right FD, close but not optimum, either way finding the combo (that's is more often then not, not obvious to most players) is a guessing/testing game. My calc does it for you. and as you said the in game option DOESNT factor in rolling radius or resistance as I do. Making tuning more precise and less of a trial and error affair. The Adjuster takes it even further allowing the Tuner to cater the gearbox to specific Tracks easily with much less trial and error. I would say it's more of a Gear Tuning Tool as apposed to a "calculator" I guess.

I've only recently cracked the spacing nut on how best to space the gears based of the input data. This works on all GT5 cars, as I said, I've been through equal spacing, progressively increasing, progressively decreasing spacing, & level (equal) rpm drop spacing. I've also went through a few offset spacing variations. Don't think there is anything I haven't tried.

 

[grenadeshark]

I've not only been able to calculate the rolling radius of any GT5 car (they vary from car to car), I also calculate the increasing rolling resistance & wind resistance (they are reflective as a combined resistance), my calculator factors that in for it's calculations.

Very nice. I honestly say I can't wait to see it.

I certainly do take the powerband into account (that's where the spacing based off max speed/max engine speed then re-adjusted to peak HP comes in) it's important, but not as much as you would think. My Tuner gives 3 FD's one for best acceleration, one for max speed (this is maximizing the use of the power band) and a third that sits in the middle. It takes stretching the gears, spacing them progressively further away from each other (making them accelerate slower) to get ALL the power band useable in each gear without calculating shift points. When if you gear them closer you get better acceleration from the gears, with proper spacing (this took Months of testing to get right) I found the rpm drop to be perfect and relatively equal. Maximizing the use of the power band perfectly.

I have a hard time seeing that there is a one solution fits all approach to this as all of my testing has shown me otherwise. Depending on de-tuning levels, parts installed and a myriad of other factors, the power curve can vary greatly from car to car.

If you look at my graphs from the first page of this post, you will see that each of those requires a different and unique gear set. But, they all have the same "peak" HP numbers. I guess we will just have to see it in action.

Q: Is this the same as the in game slider?

Not really. One of the in game Top Speed Slider settings is pretty damn close when coupled to the right FD, close but not optimum, either way finding the combo (that's is more often then not, not obvious to most players) is a guessing/testing game. My calc does it for you. and as you said the in game option DOESNT factor in rolling radius or resistance as I do. Making tuning more precise and less of a trial and error affair. The Adjuster takes it even further allowing the Tuner to cater the gearbox to specific Tracks easily with much less trial and error. I would say it's more of a Gear Tuning Tool as apposed to a "calculator" I guess.

I agree again. I like the idea that you have figured out rolling and wind resistance in this game. One thing to note, the in game top speed slider is mearly the same ratios spread over a range of rpms. The percent of change between the lowest top speed and the highest top speeds stays the same. But, it seems you have figured this out as well.

I've only recently cracked the spacing nut on how best to space the gears based of the input data. This works on all GT5 cars, as I said, I've been through equal spacing, progressively increasing, progressively decreasing spacing, & level (equal) rpm drop spacing. I've also went through a few offset spacing variations. Don't think there is anything I haven't tried.

I would have to see your input data to verify if your spacing was correct or not.

The system I use creates longer first and second gears to maximize traction through slower corners. It then uses extremely short top gears to maximize high end acceleration. Through my testing, this has proved more beneficial then straight across the board even spacing.

So, how my variables are you accounting for on the input side of your equations? I can assure you, peak HP only will not get you a quality gear set on every car. Some cars have different ranges of operable RPMs. Some cars, it makes sense to have 2500 rpms between shift points. On another car with a narrower power band, you may only have 1600 RPMs. As general tuning theory, you should use as little RPM as possible to get to the maximum top speed you need on the track. In other words, if you could get away with it, 1000 RPMs between shifts will create better acceleration then 2500 RPMs between shifts on the same car. Whether or not that works on any given track is another story.

This is what I am interested in. Does your calculator take this into account as of yet?

 

[AssassinTuner]

Very nice. I honestly say I can't wait to see it.

Thanks, it's been in the works for a while now, but won't be released until fully complete, no more Beta's.

I have a hard time seeing that there is a one solution fits all approach to this as all of my testing has shown me otherwise. Depending on de-tuning levels, parts installed and a myriad of other factors, the power curve can vary greatly from car to car.

They all follow the same principles. With less input data then you would think it's done. Knowing the maximum engine speed and using the peak hp point the power band gets maximized use without over doing it.

You see when gearing the car only on use of the powerband from a relatively equal shift point you have to space the gears further apart. This nets you greater top speed but at the cost of acceleration, those few mph will seldomely be seen on the Track.

Close spaced gears accelerate the fastest.

Although equally spaced gears do work well they don't fully take advantage of each gears gearing potential.

A mix between gearing for maximum use of the power band and close spaced gears I've found to work best.

An example of this method is used on the M3 04 Test Car posted in the Assassin Performance Tuning Garage.

M3 04 Test Car

There is the slider trick that people seem to think let's you get closer gears but It actually just stretches the Hell out of first gear. I found the trick to be useless. Smothering first gear.

If you look at my graphs from the first page of this post, you will see that each of those requires a different and unique gear set. But, they all have the same "peak" HP numbers. I guess we will just have to see it in action.

Yes, but they make different peak hp if they have different total RPM range (like variable valve timing engines), and or make that same tq at different rpms.

I thought I would have to make an adjuster to take into account engines with variable valve timing or high low end boost, but it's proven to not be necessary, the V-Tec engines etc rev so high up and peak so high up it's all good.

What's important is the space between peak hp (where it falls) and red line. When power limiting it peaks earlier, but never drops lower then peak tq, and falls at it's normal rpm. Using the hp peak fall point (when power limiting or boosting) to red line gap & engine speed range to calculate the curve gets the rpms to drop right into the sweet spot of the power curve, As the curve is just flattened when limiting. The final calculations remain the same.

I agree again. I like the idea that you have figured out rolling and wind resistance in this game.

It takes a baseline test with the car to calculate it.

I would have to see your input data to verify if your spacing was correct or not.

The spacing is determined by speed and progressively adjusted across the gears. The gears then are determend by resistance/speed/peak hp/rpm range & calculated final ratio.

The system I use creates longer first and second gears to maximize traction through slower corners. It then uses extremely short top gears to maximize high end acceleration. Through my testing, this has proved more beneficial then straight across the board even spacing.

I do too, first gear is the longest, Followed by second, tightening as they go.

I agree even spacing and also equal drop don't work as well as what we do. Your method seems to do what my tool does (and will help those less knowledgeable be able to do) the same.

So, how my variables are you accounting for on the input side of your equations? I can assure you, peak HP only will not get you a quality gear set on every car. Some cars have different ranges of operable RPMs. Some cars, it makes sense to have 2500 rpms between shift points. On another car with a narrower power band, you may only have 1600 RPMs. As general tuning theory, you should use as little RPM as possible to get to the maximum top speed you need on the track. In other words, if you could get away with it, 1000 RPMs between shifts will create better acceleration then 2500 RPMs between shifts on the same car. Whether or not that works on any given track is another story.

This is what I am interested in. Does your calculator take this into account as of yet?

It does. The amount of gap between shifts is not just a product of the gearing, but also the rpm range. If you can see one side, use it to calculate the other.

 

[grenadeshark]

They all follow the same principles. With less input data then you would think it's done. Knowing the maximum engine speed and using the peak hp point the power band gets maximized use without over doing it.

What do you do about cars who peak relatively early in the RPM range, but do not drop much afterwards? IE. 300 hp @ 7000 rpms, but 285 @ 8500. The effects of gearing will tell you that 9 times out of 10, you want to run this car to redline.

You see when gearing the car only on use of the powerband from a relatively equal shift point you have to space the gears further apart. This nets you greater top speed but at the cost of acceleration, those few mph will seldomely be seen on the Track.

Close spaced gears accelerate the fastest.

Although equally spaced gears do work well they don't fully take advantage of each gears gearing potential.

A mix between gearing for maximum use of the power band and close spaced gears I've found to work best.

An example of this method is used on the M3 04 Test Car posted in the Assassin Performance Tuning Garage.

I just tuned an m3'04 not a few days ago. He in fact mentioned something just a few posts up.

There is the slider trick that people seem to think let's you get closer gears but It actually just stretches the Hell out of first gear. I found the trick to be useless. Smothering first gear.

Yes, but having a lengthened first gear has lots of benefits. One being you can always adjust it with almost no ill effects on the rest of the performance of your gear sets.

IE: First gear ratio of 3.2 with rear end of 3.5 is a factor of 11.2. This is the best acceleration off the line for this particular car. As long as when you change your final gear ratio, you keep the factor of 11.2 the same, you will always have good acceleration out of the hole

At the same time, this causes your 2nd gear to become extremely wide. But in all but the most underpowered cars, this is a benefit. It allows you to get on the gas earlier in most cars without having as many traction problems. The effects of gearing on the lower gears allows you to get very good acceleration out of a relatively long power band.

Yes, but they make different peak hp if they have different total RPM range (like variable valve timing engines), and or make that same tq at different rpms.

I thought I would have to make an adjuster to take into account engines with variable valve timing or high low end boost, but it's proven to not be necessary, the V-Tec engines etc rev so high up and peak so high up it's all good.

I don't believe vtec is accurately modeled in this game.

What's important is the space between peak hp (where it falls) and red line. When power limiting it peaks earlier, but never drops lower then peak tq, and falls at it's normal rpm.

When power limiting you absolutely can still get HP drop before redline. In fact, I believe that any tune that completely flat lines a cars powerband has too much detuning in it. In reality, a car that has a massive drop of power after a certain rpm shouldn't be detuned so that drop dissapears. It should be detuned only enough to where it can get a usable set of RPMs before the drop. I have found in my testing that anywhere from 5-12% is generally the maximum amount of detuning you should ever do to a car. [/quote]

Using the hp peak fall point (when power limiting or boosting) to red line gap & engine speed range to calculate the curve gets the rpms to drop right into the sweet spot of the power curve.

I'd like to see your math on this. It sounds like it could work, I would just like to see your equations to see what you are really calculating.

It does. The amount of gap between shifts is not just a product of the gearing, but also the rpm range. If you can see one side, use it to calculate the other.

Of course. That's exactly what my equations do as well.

 

[AssassinTuner]

What do you do about cars who peak relatively early in the RPM range, but do not drop much afterwards? IE. 300 hp @ 7000 rpms, but 285 @ 8500. The effects of gearing will tell you that 9 times out of 10, you want to run this car to redline.

It gets taken into account through max engine speed and peak hp. If it's peaking at 6500 and red lines at 8000, well you have your 1500 rpm gap to calculate from. Its never too far apart, 6500, 8000, and 1500 become useable values.

You won't see a car making peak hp falling at 5000 keep reving to 9000rpm, most likely closer to 5500 or 6000 and the gap when shifting at 9000rpm is much different then from 5500 or 6000rpm.

I just tuned an m3'04 not a few days ago. He in fact mentioned something just a few posts up.

Perfect you have a test mule your familiar with. Check it out, match the specs and let's compare what you come up with.

Yes, but having a lengthened first gear has lots of benefits. One being you can always adjust it with almost no ill effects on the rest of the performance of your gear sets.

I find proper gearing works better and first gear doesn't need to be smothered. Just check out how the M3 04 does a red line launch. Perfect. Then compare to the smothered first gear.

IE: First gear ratio of 3.2 with rear end of 3.5 is a factor of 11.2. This is the best acceleration off the line for this particular car. As long as when you change your final gear ratio, you keep the factor of 11.2 the same, you will always have good acceleration out of the hole

Not in question, I also have a calculator that will adjust the gears by final ratio and by final drive gear adjustments. I use it for testing.

At the same time, this causes your 2nd gear to become extremely wide. But in all but the most underpowered cars, this is a benefit. It allows you to get on the gas earlier in most cars without having as many traction problems. The effects of gearing on the lower gears allows you to get very good acceleration out of a relatively long power band.

Makes driving easier by reducing the torque put down. Easier to drive yes, but slower then when correctly done.

I don't believe vtec is accurately modeled in this game.

Me too, rendering the need for an adjustment taking it into account useless/pointless.

When power limiting you absolutely can still get HP drop before redline. In fact, I believe that any tune that completely flat lines a cars powerband has too much detuning in it.

Never said it couldn't. I said you can't get the peak rise to occur before peak tq as when you use the limiter it pulls the peak hp back but not further than peak tq.

In reality, a car that has a massive drop of power after a certain rpm shouldn't be detuned so that drop dissapears. It should be detuned only enough to where it can get a usable set of RPMs before the drop. I have found in my testing that anywhere from 5-12% is generally the maximum amount of detuning you should ever do to a car.

Not in question, I simply state since power limiting only flattened the curve the calculations remain the same.

I'd like to see your math on this. It sounds like it could work, I would just like to see your equations to see what you are really calculating.

Of course. That's exactly what my equations do as well.

I'd like compare your end results also. I think my M3 Test Car is the perfect subject for us to use.

Afterwords I might pass you my Tool in it's state for testing. It might even make your life easier, plus the ease of adjusting each gear by mph is very useful.

 

[grenadeshark]

Sadly, I didn't save my m3's settings on my own car. Guy sent his car in and I worked with what I had. I am going to build a car with the exact settings from your tune and see what it looks like compared to mine.

 

[grenadeshark]

You won't see a car making peak hp falling at 5000 keep reving to 9000rpm, most likely closer to 5500 or 6000 and the gap when shifting at 9000rpm is much different then from 5500 or 6000rpm.

I would disagree with this. I see them all the time. I will find one shortly.

EDIT: I found one. Nissan Silvia K's dia selection '90. Without detuning, this car makes 348 hp (with parts i have installed) @ 7200 RPMs and drops almost 50% by the 8700 redline. In this car, it would not be beneficial in almost any gear to go past about 7500 RPMs. From a rough look at the graph, I would say the car is making 200ish HP @ 8700 RPMs.

EDIT: Another example. The delorean. With my parts it makes 287@6600 RPMs with 7600 RPM redline. By the redline it is probably only making 170ish HP.

EDIT: Another example. Dodge charger super bee 71. 400 hp@ 5000 RPMs, 200hp @ 7000 RPMs.

Starting to see the trend? A 50% drop in HP over a 1000 RPMs or more is absolutely huge. Any tuning I would do to these car would be based on a much smaller RPM base that does not utilize the RPMs after the power band peaks.

I find proper gearing works better and first gear doesn't need to be smothered. Just check out how the M3 04 does a red line launch. Perfect. Then compare to the smothered first gear.

I don't actually smother first gear, I retune it to get the best acceleration out of it. Generally 2nd gear is smothered, which has shown to be beneficial in my test cars. Specifically, on my recent tune of the m3 in question, the guy mentioned the car handled much better which my longer 2nd gear.

Makes driving easier by reducing the torque put down. Easier to drive yes, but slower then when correctly done.

Not neccesarily. Depending on your ratios, you could be putting down the same power to the wheels at 4500 rpms as you would in 3rd gear at 6000 rpms. Remember the effects of gearing. They create massive amounts of power to the wheels in the lower gears. Although you may think your acceleration is being hindered, do the math. Check the HP values and tq to the wheels versus a different gearset that is more evened out.

 

[AssassinTuner]

Moved

 

[grenadeshark]

Dude, 7200 to 8700 is a far stretch from 5000 to 9000rpm.

Your also mixing up shift points..


As for smothering first gear, that comes from using the tranny trick to over stretch it. Very useless trick.

See my other examples. I was only pointing out that there are many cars whose power drops off nearly 50% in 1000 rpms.

To answer the second part. You are not reading what I wrote. I am not stretching out 1st gear... I have said that multiple times. I am stretching 2nd gear, but still within usable RPMs

What am I mixing up shift point wise?

P.S. I don't have a m3 04

It has to be at 79.3% for the gear values to be available.

I pulled this off of the thread you listed. I don't understand why you have engine detuning and gearing listed as effecting each other?

 

[AssassinTuner]

I would disagree with this. I see them all the time. I will find one shortly.

EDIT: I found one. Nissan Silvia K's dia selection '90.

Not so, you must of misunderstood.

Without detuning, this car makes 348 hp (with parts i have installed) @ 7200 RPMs and drops almost 50% by the 8700 redline. In this car, it would not be beneficial in almost any gear to go past about 7500 RPMs. From a rough look at the graph, I would say the car is making 200ish HP @ 8700 RPMs.

7200 to 8700 is a far stretch from 5000 to 9000rpm. I'm talking about a 4000rpm gap from peak hp to red line, your displaying a 1700rpm gap. BIG difference...

Your also mixing up shift points..

I don't actually smother first gear, I retune it to get the best acceleration out of it. Generally 2nd gear is smothered, which has shown to be beneficial in my test cars. Specifically, on my recent tune of the m3 in question, the guy mentioned the car handled much better which my longer 2nd gear.

As for smothering first gear, that comes from using the tranny trick to over stretch it. Very useless trick.

Not neccesarily. Depending on your ratios, you could be putting down the same power to the wheels at 4500 rpms as you would in 3rd gear at 6000 rpms. Remember the effects of gearing. They create massive amounts of power to the wheels in the lower gears. Although you may think your acceleration is being hindered, do the math. Check the HP values and tq to the wheels versus a different gearset that is more evened out.

Your combining gear tuning and calculating shift points, It doesn't work like that. You calculate the shift points AFTER you tuned the gears to take full advantage of the power band with the gear set you have. I'm not saying don't calculate shift points, just it requires the gears to do so

 

[grenadeshark]

Your combining gear tuning and calculating shift points, It doesn't work like that. You calculate the shift points AFTER you tuned the gears to take full advantage of the power band with the gear set you have. I'm not saying don't calculate shift points, just it requires the gears to do so

You are right in the idea that you have to know what final gear ratio you are going to be using to get the shift points just right.

My example being, a car with a 4.0 final gear ratio will create more tq to the wheels in 3rd gear then a car with a 2.0 final gear ratio. This can absolutely effect your shift points.

However, once you know your final gear ratio, you can calculate the difference between shifting at one RPM and another via TQ output to the wheels with a given gear set.

This is why you perceive me as calculating them both at the same time. I already know my final gear ratio when I am tuning these cars. I set it up at the same time I setup the last gear of the transmission.

Those two work in tandem. The problem with this game is the inaccurate information you have to work with. My tuning theories listed in this thread are based on guesstimates of the graphs and numbers you see in game.

But, I can easily see where I want my shift points to be before I set the individual gear ratios. Just calculate the TQ output to the wheels over a given set of a single gear set and see where the points are.

I don't expect the average person in the game to do that. My method just tells the user to guess the shift point based on what they are seeing. The only way to really calculate the correct shift point is to plot out all the possible values on a graph and pick the value that concurs with both the previous gear and the next forward gear.

This is time consuming and is what my tuning calculator did. I was never able to make it user friendly though.

As for smothering first gear, that comes from using the tranny trick to over stretch it. Very useless trick.

This has to be the fourth time I have said this. I am not smothering first gear... But, I also disagree with your statement. I have found it extremely beneficial in this game to have longer lower gears and shorter taller gears. This works well with my transmission tuning as the TQ output to the wheels seems to be just right.

 

[AssassinTuner]

I pulled this off of the thread you listed. I don't understand why you have engine detuning and gearing listed as effecting each other?

Using the power limiter effects the available gear values, any change to hp changes the ranges of values available for each gear. If you want others to use the gears they need know what TS setting to use. Change the limiter setting the TS need be adjusted.

 

[grenadeshark]

Using the power limiter effects the available gear values, any change to hp changes the ranges of values available for each gear. If you want others to use the gears they need know what TS setting to use. Change the limiter setting the TS need be adjusted.

I just tested this and I don't see what you are talking about. I can detune the car as much as I want and it doesn't effect my available values. Please explain where you are coming up with this?

Now, if you change the final gear ratio and then move the slider, it definitely effects the values available.

EDIT: I am going to go ahead and test with your Honda since it is a premium car.

 

[CSLACR]

Not neccesarily. Depending on your ratios, you could be putting down the same power to the wheels at 4500 rpms as you would in 3rd gear at 6000 rpms. Remember the effects of gearing. They create massive amounts of power to the wheels in the lower gears. Although you may think your acceleration is being hindered, do the math. Check the HP values and tq to the wheels versus a different gearset that is more evened out.

Are you going with the "gears multiply torque" theory?

 

[grenadeshark]

Are you going with the "gears multiply torque" theory?

I didn't realize it was a theory...

But, um yeah. They don't change tq output to the wheels if that is what you are asking. What they do is reduce load on the engine. When you reduce load on an engine, it revs faster and therefore spins the wheels faster.

You can call it whatever you want. Most people, including Caroll Smith (Drive to win, Tune to win, etc) use the multiplying toque theory to make things easier to understand.