The Group C Club!
- Thread starter superfast
- 298 comments
- 54,122 views
I wanna be in!
Here's a couple pics I have of my 1/5 scale RC car and a 1/18 Exoto model.
I'm a racing fan - slot cars, r/c, GT4, you name it! The C291 is my favorite, though! (I'm not a NASCAR fan)
Great thread!
btw... forgive my stupidity in not knowing how to post pics... I'll get it...
http://img254.imageshack.us/img_viewer_framed.php?g=sauberc928000bt.jpg
Here's a couple pics I have of my 1/5 scale RC car and a 1/18 Exoto model.
I'm a racing fan - slot cars, r/c, GT4, you name it! The C291 is my favorite, though! (I'm not a NASCAR fan)
Great thread!
btw... forgive my stupidity in not knowing how to post pics... I'll get it...
http://img254.imageshack.us/img_viewer_framed.php?g=sauberc928000bt.jpg
- 24,002
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
Heres a couple of shots from the Silverstone Classic event i was at the other week:
- 622
superfastlive4speed, you are totally right. Motorsports in general is awesome, but this forum is especially about a certain niche in motorsports, the Group C race cars. And, to add about what you said about the 787B, it was the only Japanese car to win Le Mans. Also, it was the only rotary to win Le Mans.
I believe it got banned after that... At least it's engine...
- 535
For chrissakes, THE ROTARY ENGINE WAS NEVER BANNED AT LE MANS!!!!!!!!!!!!
How many times do I have to drag up pictures of Kudzus, Courages, and other WSC cars that used rotaries? I mean, seriously folks. What happened was a change in class format that rendered the Wankel uncompetitive due to restructuring.
And in fact the 787B compared to the other Group C cars of the time (especially the TWR Jaguars and Sauber Mercedes) was dog slow - slower than the Aston Martin AMR1 - and it was fuel efficiency and reliability in a freak year that landed Mazda the win.
Mazda knew that the N/A four row was down on power, and experimented with a turbo rotary GTP/Group C car in IMSA competition. It was fast but fragile, and gained a reputation in IMSA for setting itself on fire. However, the Crawford (yes, the Daytona Prototype chassis constructor Crawford) chassis was excellent and Mazda Motorsport was sure they could get the wrinkles ironed out.
Unfortunately for them, Cat. 1 came down heavy on turbochargers, favoring (as the ACO often does) the French Peugeot team. And so, in desperation to continue their winning ways, Mazda put their name on a TWR Cat 1 chassis with a Judd V10 engine. A 4th place finish was the reward for their trouble.
The Mazdaspeed boys took the next three years off and came back in 1995 with a Kudzu chassis WSC car. They nailed down 7th overall, which was not bad for going from custom 5.2L 4 row rotaries to a 3.0L 4 row version of the venerable 13B.
In 1996 Mazda re-motored again, going to the 20B three row and a different Kudzu chassis, going after the new LMP2 category, which they won although the result was a 25th overall finish amidst the remaining WSC cars, the abundance of GT1's, and the new LMP1's.
1997 the rotary presence was reduced to a privateer LMP1 Kudzu effort, but that team still brought the car home 17th overall.
This has been the pattern since then. Privateer entries, variations on the 13B, and Kudzu chassis. Now, though Mazda has funded an ALMS Courage/Renesis combination which scored an LMP2 class win at Mid-Ohio. The rotary has never left Le Mans. It has been restricted, bumped up in class, and lost support from a financially strapped Mazda racing budget, but certainly was never banned from Le Mans.
How many times do I have to drag up pictures of Kudzus, Courages, and other WSC cars that used rotaries? I mean, seriously folks. What happened was a change in class format that rendered the Wankel uncompetitive due to restructuring.
And in fact the 787B compared to the other Group C cars of the time (especially the TWR Jaguars and Sauber Mercedes) was dog slow - slower than the Aston Martin AMR1 - and it was fuel efficiency and reliability in a freak year that landed Mazda the win.
Mazda knew that the N/A four row was down on power, and experimented with a turbo rotary GTP/Group C car in IMSA competition. It was fast but fragile, and gained a reputation in IMSA for setting itself on fire. However, the Crawford (yes, the Daytona Prototype chassis constructor Crawford) chassis was excellent and Mazda Motorsport was sure they could get the wrinkles ironed out.
Unfortunately for them, Cat. 1 came down heavy on turbochargers, favoring (as the ACO often does) the French Peugeot team. And so, in desperation to continue their winning ways, Mazda put their name on a TWR Cat 1 chassis with a Judd V10 engine. A 4th place finish was the reward for their trouble.
The Mazdaspeed boys took the next three years off and came back in 1995 with a Kudzu chassis WSC car. They nailed down 7th overall, which was not bad for going from custom 5.2L 4 row rotaries to a 3.0L 4 row version of the venerable 13B.
In 1996 Mazda re-motored again, going to the 20B three row and a different Kudzu chassis, going after the new LMP2 category, which they won although the result was a 25th overall finish amidst the remaining WSC cars, the abundance of GT1's, and the new LMP1's.
1997 the rotary presence was reduced to a privateer LMP1 Kudzu effort, but that team still brought the car home 17th overall.
This has been the pattern since then. Privateer entries, variations on the 13B, and Kudzu chassis. Now, though Mazda has funded an ALMS Courage/Renesis combination which scored an LMP2 class win at Mid-Ohio. The rotary has never left Le Mans. It has been restricted, bumped up in class, and lost support from a financially strapped Mazda racing budget, but certainly was never banned from Le Mans.
- 368
Layla's KeeperFor chrissakes, THE ROTARY ENGINE WAS NEVER BANNED AT LE MANS!!!!!!!!!!!!
How many times do I have to drag up pictures of Kudzus, Courages, and other WSC cars that used rotaries? I mean, seriously folks. What happened was a change in class format that rendered the Wankel uncompetitive due to restructuring.
And in fact the 787B compared to the other Group C cars of the time (especially the TWR Jaguars and Sauber Mercedes) was dog slow - slower than the Aston Martin AMR1 - and it was fuel efficiency and reliability in a freak year that landed Mazda the win.
Mazda knew that the N/A four row was down on power, and experimented with a turbo rotary GTP/Group C car in IMSA competition. It was fast but fragile, and gained a reputation in IMSA for setting itself on fire. However, the Crawford (yes, the Daytona Prototype chassis constructor Crawford) chassis was excellent and Mazda Motorsport was sure they could get the wrinkles ironed out.
Unfortunately for them, Cat. 1 came down heavy on turbochargers, favoring (as the ACO often does) the French Peugeot team. And so, in desperation to continue their winning ways, Mazda put their name on a TWR Cat 1 chassis with a Judd V10 engine. A 4th place finish was the reward for their trouble.
The Mazdaspeed boys took the next three years off and came back in 1995 with a Kudzu chassis WSC car. They nailed down 7th overall, which was not bad for going from custom 5.2L 4 row rotaries to a 3.0L 4 row version of the venerable 13B.
In 1996 Mazda re-motored again, going to the 20B three row and a different Kudzu chassis, going after the new LMP2 category, which they won although the result was a 25th overall finish amidst the remaining WSC cars, the abundance of GT1's, and the new LMP1's.
1997 the rotary presence was reduced to a privateer LMP1 Kudzu effort, but that team still brought the car home 17th overall.
This has been the pattern since then. Privateer entries, variations on the 13B, and Kudzu chassis. Now, though Mazda has funded an ALMS Courage/Renesis combination which scored an LMP2 class win at Mid-Ohio. The rotary has never left Le Mans. It has been restricted, bumped up in class, and lost support from a financially strapped Mazda racing budget, but certainly was never banned from Le Mans.
Like, wow. Thank you, yet again, Layla's Keeper, for another kick ass report!
Hello.
Nice pictures you've all put up and a nice choice in cars to make a club after I must say. 👍
I recently purchased GT4 so I've not gotten any of the GTP cars in my garage yet but...I do play the GTP mod for Nascar 2003. http://www.redlinedevelopments.com/
There are a few leagues where that's all we race. I recently joined this beginner league. http://www.simcarracing.com/
If you've got a copy of NR2003 for your PC please give this mod a shot and come join our leauge.
Nice pictures you've all put up and a nice choice in cars to make a club after I must say. 👍
I recently purchased GT4 so I've not gotten any of the GTP cars in my garage yet but...I do play the GTP mod for Nascar 2003. http://www.redlinedevelopments.com/
There are a few leagues where that's all we race. I recently joined this beginner league. http://www.simcarracing.com/
If you've got a copy of NR2003 for your PC please give this mod a shot and come join our leauge.
- 6,006
- Finland
If the handling in GT4 is even halfway realistic, the drivers of those beasts must have been way above all others, even F1 drivers (the turbo F1s were awesome too). 400 kmh through the Hunaudieres straight, the Mulsanne kink and then the slow right-hander... That must have asked for serious nerve!
You guys would appreciate this I think. I've got a short fraps clip of me doing a lap around the Daytona road course in a Mazda GTP car. Not the best quality and it skips a bit because i'm using the fraps demo to record it.
click on the link in my sig and go to the movies section.
Enjoy.
click on the link in my sig and go to the movies section.
Enjoy.
- 535
Yes, Greycap, the Group C (and even moreso their GTP cousins) cars were - and to a degree still are - the absolute pinnacle of sports car racing. Their speed, grip, and braking was unparalleled until the GT1 movement of the late 90's. It took extreme driver skill to haul ass in a Group C or GTP car.
After all, where do you think Schumi got his start?
Sauber-Mercedes C-11, 1991. Karl Wendlinger, Michael Schumacher, Fritz Kreutzpointner. 5th overall.
After all, where do you think Schumi got his start?
Sauber-Mercedes C-11, 1991. Karl Wendlinger, Michael Schumacher, Fritz Kreutzpointner. 5th overall.
- 170
This "report" is a bit incorrect 
No they weren't. By then (1989), the Porsche 962 just wasn't the car to beat. Yes, it won at Dijon that year (fluke race because it was extremely hot and the Michelin-shod Mercedes were no match for the Goodyear-shod Joest 962 of Wollek and Jelinsky), but it was just too old to face the Mercedes or Jaguars (mind you, 1989 was a horrible year for TWR).
About the 3,5L atmo engines regulations, they weren't meant directly to destroy the big engines dominations, but really to destroy sportscar racing! (and they almost did. 1992 was the last year, since 1953, that there was no Sportscar World Championship). And why? Because "uncle Bernie" wanted those big car companies (Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes...) to enter F1 (and they did....
)
The Porsche 956 appeared at Le Mans for the first time in 1982. So, no "in the earliest year", but just in its first year
Well, TWR raced the Jaguar XJR-6 for the first time in Mosport in 1985 (the race where Manfred Winkelhock lost his life in a 956). And they didn't win the Le Mans 24hours in 1987, that year they just won the World Sportscar Championship.
👍 👍 , though I'll just make the remark that Sauber were absent from the 1990 Le Mans (because of politics behind ACO and FISA) and that Mazda were, let as say, imho, given the race, as they were favoured in the regulations (they weighted just 840 kg against the 1000 kg of the Jags, Porsches and Saubers and could use more fuel than them).... IMHO ofcourse
Only that in 1991, the best car (at the start of the season) was the Jaguar XJR-14. The Peugeot only really started to win races after "copying" much of the radical aerodynamics of the Jaguar.
Let's not forget that the 1992 Le Mans was also the year with no more than 30 cars entered
But gear report anyway
Layla's Keeper
No they weren't. By then (1989), the Porsche 962 just wasn't the car to beat. Yes, it won at Dijon that year (fluke race because it was extremely hot and the Michelin-shod Mercedes were no match for the Goodyear-shod Joest 962 of Wollek and Jelinsky), but it was just too old to face the Mercedes or Jaguars (mind you, 1989 was a horrible year for TWR).
About the 3,5L atmo engines regulations, they weren't meant directly to destroy the big engines dominations, but really to destroy sportscar racing! (and they almost did. 1992 was the last year, since 1953, that there was no Sportscar World Championship). And why? Because "uncle Bernie" wanted those big car companies (Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes...) to enter F1 (and they did....
)Layla's Keeper
The Porsche 956 appeared at Le Mans for the first time in 1982. So, no "in the earliest year", but just in its first year
Layla's Keeper
Well, TWR raced the Jaguar XJR-6 for the first time in Mosport in 1985 (the race where Manfred Winkelhock lost his life in a 956). And they didn't win the Le Mans 24hours in 1987, that year they just won the World Sportscar Championship.
Layla's Keeper
👍 👍 , though I'll just make the remark that Sauber were absent from the 1990 Le Mans (because of politics behind ACO and FISA) and that Mazda were, let as say, imho, given the race, as they were favoured in the regulations (they weighted just 840 kg against the 1000 kg of the Jags, Porsches and Saubers and could use more fuel than them).... IMHO ofcourse
Layla's Keeper
Only that in 1991, the best car (at the start of the season) was the Jaguar XJR-14. The Peugeot only really started to win races after "copying" much of the radical aerodynamics of the Jaguar.
Layla's Keeper
Let's not forget that the 1992 Le Mans was also the year with no more than 30 cars entered
But gear report anyway
- 170
Layla's KeeperYes, Greycap, the Group C (and even moreso their GTP cousins) cars were - and to a degree still are - the absolute pinnacle of sports car racing. Their speed, grip, and braking was unparalleled until the GT1 movement of the late 90's. It took extreme driver skill to haul ass in a Group C or GTP car.
After all, where do you think Schumi got his start?
Sauber-Mercedes C-11, 1991. Karl Wendlinger, Michael Schumacher, Fritz Kreutzpointner. 5th overall.
I just LOVE that car... Even more than the Porsche 962 (and I'm a Porsche fan all the way)...
- 1,394
- Lost in thought.
- GTP_crimson
Group C Club...
If the XJ220's are in, then count me in! Whoooooooooo!!!!!!1!!one...!!!!!!
👍
If the XJ220's are in, then count me in! Whoooooooooo!!!!!!1!!one...!!!!!!
👍 - 170
crimson_menaceGroup C Club...
If the XJ220's are in, then count me in! Whoooooooooo!!!!!!1!!one...!!!!!!
The only "group-c" thing that the XJ220 has is its 3,5L twin-turbo engine (derived from a V6 from the MG Metro 6R4, who in turn was based in the old V8-Rover lump, which in turn was based in the Buick small-block
).
- 1,914
and i know that the engine from the xj220 was developed from the engine used in the jaguar xjr-9, a group-c car i believe. jaguar actually used and develope the engine from the metro 6r4 and used it in the xjr9 first, before developing ot for the xj220. ah, what would i do without my "too fast to race" dvd?
- 170
nitro_2005
Except it wasn't called XJR-9 but, instead it was the XJR-11 (actually, it debuted earlier in 1989 in the IMSA GTP championship as the XJR-10).
The truth was that the XJ220 was going to have the atmo 7litre V12 from the XJR-6/8/9, but the ever-stringent pollution regulations meant it was impossible to turn it into a roadcar (though, the Lister Storm uses one, so go figure).
- 316
Are you allowed to join even if you're 13?
Because i like Group C above everything else
Here's a website for Le Mans:
www.racingsportscars.com
click on photos for history, info and pictures.
edit
What do you have to do to join the club?
Because i like Group C above everything else
Here's a website for Le Mans:
www.racingsportscars.com
click on photos for history, info and pictures.
edit
What do you have to do to join the club?
- 170
THE ED3
Daytona what??? Oh, those spec "medieval-times" ca4s
- 170
Try "InCar 956", wih contains some laps imboard of the best racetracks in the beggining of the 80's.
You can also shop at Duke Video, videos with races from the 1980's WEC/WSPC races (however, don't know if there are any in-car footage).
You can also shop at Duke Video, videos with races from the 1980's WEC/WSPC races (however, don't know if there are any in-car footage).
- 535
Gil AbobeleiraDaytona what??? Oh, those spec "medieval-times" ca4s
Bite it. Seeing 30 (and the numbers are still climbing) closely regulated sports cars that can turn laps on par with an LMP2 all battling for the lead is much more fun than watching a five year old Audi beat up on a pair of ex-works MG Lolas.
If the Caddys had stayed, the BMW's had stayed, the Panoz LMP-01'ss had stayed, the Crawford SSC20K and Dallara-Judd had stayed, the Panoz-Mugen LMP-07's had been developed, the Ascari Judds had stayed, the Domes came over, and the Lister LMP and DBA Zytek would come play more often THEN I'd be more a fan of the ALMS.
