The GT Sport Epic Whining and Crying Thread

[7HO]

I mean honestly, no journalist anywhere has an article or mentions this.

Why would they laser scan the track and not make a PR statement about it?

Again, from known information the Nurburgring track had never been laser scanned until recently for Forza 5 and AC.

I remember reading back then how the track was created from photos stitched together but nothing about laser scanning.

 

[FordGTGuy]

I'm digging a hole ? I'm just stating the history of laser scan use.

It was a general statement towards anyone trying to claim the use of laser scanning in GT4 for Nurburgring.

 

[Imari]

GT4 road surface accuracy difference of 15mm. How does one do that without laser scanning back then?

+/- 15mm is actually quite a lot. Put a straight line across most race tracks and I'd say that most of the time any dips or bumps will be less than that. All you'd have to do is pick your centre appropriately and model the gross imperfections.

 

[FordGTGuy]

I remember reading back then how the track was created from photos stitched together but nothing about laser scanning.

If this is true then it confirms the use of GPS.

Tracks built with GPS have the information stitched together after data collection. This is because they collect GPS data from multiple sources, including walking with antennae and driving with antennae.

Laser scanned tracks do not use stitching as the scan creates a single model that can be imported into their software. There is only a single device used to collect data in this method, the device is a laser scanning truck.

 

[Samus]

He said it was quite a few times IIRC. Like I said before, will ask Facebook person. Hopefully can go into detail about old game at least.

Amar said it a few times? Oh, I didn't realise if you repeated something it made it more substantial.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Oh, I didn't realise if you repeated something it made it more substantial.

I would never trust reps on Facebook or twitter for accurate information, they are known for being very inaccurate.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Oh, I didn't realise if you repeated something it made it more substantial.

Substantial difference is not might have been like you said but him saying it was the case. You can get banned for saying inaccurate stuff on neoGAF IIRC and against AUP here so saying something repeatedly must mean he thinks it is true.

 

[Samus]

Substantial difference is not might have been like you said but him saying it was the case. You can get banned for saying inaccurate stuff on neoGAF IIRC and against AUP here so saying something repeatedly must mean he thinks it is true.

Saying you think something is true is fine. Saying it is true is different. Unless Amar knows for certain, his word on what he thinks is frankly meaningless. It's not like he hasn't been wrong on things before, he doesn't actually work for PD.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Substantial difference is not might have been like you said but him saying it was the case. You can get banned for saying inaccurate stuff on neoGAF IIRC and against AUP here so saying something repeatedly must mean he thinks it is true.

You can get banned for anything the mods don't like on GAF, including criticism of a Sony product or even defending a Microsoft product in a thread where the mods allow rampant anti-Microsoft trolling.

I know this because I've been banned about 9 times on GAF.

My last ban was for pointing out accurate criticisms of the PS4 and I was told in the ban message not to come back until I changed my opinion.

Also Amar does not work for PD and I would love to see his evidence.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

If this is true then it confirms the use of GPS.

Tracks built with GPS have the information stitched together after data collection. This is because they collect GPS data from multiple sources, including walking with antennae and driving with antennae.

Laser scanned tracks do not use stitching as the scan creates a single model that can be imported into their software. There is only a single device used to collect data in this method, the device is a laser scanning truck.

As far as I know, the old laser scan tech usually placed stationary while scanning in 360 degree, it's not as advanced like today tech, so it may scan in chunks, say 50m radius Regarding accuracy of 5mm in 50m distance that I wrote, different distance scan yield different accuracy, I may have mistaken with 5mm, it may even be 15mm or 25mm at that distance. It's been long time, I read about it in college, but I can remember in early 2002 or 2003, there's one claimed that 5mm accuracy, it was Trimble as seller.

Oh, the mid 90's maker of laser scan was Callidus, I may have mixed my statement with Callidus CP3200, that's what I remembered. Trimble sold Callidus made scanner.

 

[FordGTGuy]

As far as I know, the old laser scan tech usually placed stationary while scanning in 360 degree, it's not as advanced like today tech, so it may scan in chunks, say 50m radius Regarding accuracy of 5mm in 50m distance that I wrote, different distance scan yield different accuracy, I may have mistaken with 5mm, it may even be 15mm or 25mm at that distance. It's been long time, I read about it in college, but I can remember in early 2002 or 2003, there's one claimed that 5mm accuracy, it was Trimble as seller.

Oh, the mid 90's maker of laser scan was Callidus, I may have mixed my statement with Callidus CP3200, that's what I remembered. Trimble sold Callidus made scanner.

This Trimble scanning device from 2003:

http://www.prismarit.fi/userData/prismarit-oy-voima-f1311c/Trimble-GSSeries_DS_0405_lr.pdf
http://www.pobonline.com/articles/87999-mensi-releases-gs200-laser-scanner-11-05-2003

Is capable of 1.6 mm at 50 m range.

6.5 mm at 200 m.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

This Trimble scanning device from 2005:

http://www.prismarit.fi/userData/prismarit-oy-voima-f1311c/Trimble-GSSeries_DS_0405_lr.pdf

Is capable of 1.6 mm at 50 m range.

6.5 mm at 200 m.

The 5mm/50m most likely from Callidus CP3200 also sold by Trimble ( AFAIK ), it may be from late 90's or early 2000. The CP3200 is based on 1st gen Callidus 3D scanner, which is old pioneer tech from 1996, one of the first or maybe the 1st short range ( pulse ranging ) laser scanner. If PD rumor is true, highly likely PD would have used Callidus scanner, but nobody here seems to have proof of it anyway

 

[FordGTGuy]

The 5mm/50mm most likely from Callidus CP3200 also sold by Trimble ( AFAIK ), it may be from late 90's or early 2000. The CP3200 is based on 1st gen Callidus 3D scanner, which is old pioneer tech from 1996, one of the first short range ( pulse ranging )

Either way, there is no way that a laser scanned Nurburgring released in 2004 is only accurate within 15 mm.

 

[GAN SAN]

I just watched a gameplay video of GT Sport and while I don't care much about sounds I have to say I am astonished at how bad the R8 gt3 sounds. But even more than that, I am baffled by the tire screeching sound.

GT6 was ridiculous in that aspect, especially on sport tires (but not limited to them), where the tire screeching would cover any monster's engine/exhaust note to the point I had to lower the volume just to avoid getting a headache. Even more ridiculous was the fact that tire screeching was equally apparent, if not more, on a wet track!!!

Anyway, seems that PD was satisfied by GT6 performance in this aspect and decided to keep it identical for GT Sport.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Either way, there is no way that a laser scanned Nurburgring released in 2004 is only accurate within 15 mm.

If they use old device ( like the old Callidus ), it may be. It's very expensive equipment to run/hire/own, needs specialists to operate and do the data collection alone ( back then )

Also the accuracy is not definite, they are usually maker claim ( in theory ), but in practice, it depends on many factors, handler/operator, location, time/weather ? Not sure the details, I doubt the accuracy is as simple as exact result every time.

 

[FordGTGuy]

If they use old device ( like the old Callidus ), it may be. It's very expensive equipment to run/hire/own, needs specialists to operate and do the data collection alone ( back then )

Also the accuracy is not definite, they are usually maker claim ( in theory ), but in practice, it depends on many factors, handler/operator, location, time/weather ? Not sure the details, I doubt the accuracy is as simple as exact result every time.

http://www.gdmc.nl/3DCadastres/workshop2014/programme/Workshop2014_07.pdf

CP3200 is capable of 5mm at 50 meters.

Exactly how would it make sense for the scan to be 15 mm when the device is capable of 5 mm?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

http://www.gdmc.nl/3DCadastres/workshop2014/programme/Workshop2014_07.pdf

CP3200 is capable of 5mm at 50 meters.

The only scanning device that makes sense is the GS200 which was available for a year before the release of GT4 and is accurate to 1.6mm at 50 meters.

Different info from what I have read, see if I can find the book online

Here : https://books.google.fi/books?id=YTxmbD3px0QC&pg=PA97&dq=callidu+1996+Topographic+Laser+Ranging+and+Scanning:+Principles+and+Processing&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwssCQq_DMAhVMMY8KHbvrCdMQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=callidu 1996 Topographic Laser Ranging and Scanning: Principles and Processing&f=false

Not sure why different in range, maybe different spec version ? Your source said CP3200 available from 1997-2006.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Different info from what I have read, see if I can find the book online

Here : https://books.google.fi/books?id=YTxmbD3px0QC&pg=PA97&dq=callidu+1996+Topographic+Laser+Ranging+and+Scanning:+Principles+and+Processing&hl=fi&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwssCQq_DMAhVMMY8KHbvrCdMQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=callidu 1996 Topographic Laser Ranging and Scanning: Principles and Processing&f=false

Not sure why different in range, maybe different spec version ? Your source said CP3200 available from 1997-2006.

View attachment 549150

Both sources claim 5mm at 50 meters.

From this, we can conclude that if it was in fact laser scanned with a CP3200 that it would be accurate up to 5mm +/- depending on distance of 50 meters +/-.

So I'm going to call shenanigans on this idea.

In fact, since the maximum range of the device is 120 meters then I would even say that it might even be impossible for it to be as inaccurate as 15mm from it's max distance.

The Nurburgring GP track is 10-13 meters wide.

http://www.nuerburgring.de/en/fans-info/race-tracks/grand-prix-track.html

Which is about as wide or wider then any other part of Nurburgring.

So in this scenario, Polyphony would have had a truck with CP3200s scanning a track with a width of about 10-13 meters and a device capable of 5mm at 50 meters so let's say about 1.5 mm at 10-13 meters as a guess.

How could that possibly result in 15 mm?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Saying you think something is true is fine. Saying it is true is different. Unless Amar knows for certain, his word on what he thinks is frankly meaningless. It's not like he hasn't been wrong on things before, he doesn't actually work for PD.

His posts don't sound like he thinks something is true, rather a statement of what he knows to be true: Link

 

[FordGTGuy]

His posts don't sound like he thinks something is true, rather a statement of what he knows to be true: Link

Nurburgring, Silverstone, Motegi, Suzuka, Tsukuba, LeMans...

PD does not use it for bragging as many other studios, but almost all of their real-life tracks since 2004 has been laser-scanned with their own equipment and software.

What a load of baloney, give me some proof.

Apparently Amar is the only person on Earth that knows for a fact that they were laser scanned, even if all the proof we can find points the other way.

They supposedly laser scanned six tracks yet not even their making of footage makes not even a single mention of it.

On top of every thing "does not use it for bagging as many other studios."

Yet their making of video shows footage of them collecting track information using GPS equipment.

 

[Toysuprahot]

What a load of baloney, give me some proof.

Apparently Amar is the only person on Earth that knows for a fact that they were laser scanned, even if all the proof we can find points the other way.

They supposedly laser scanned six tracks yet not even their making of footage makes not even a single mention of it.

I believe PD does not boast about their track modelling technology as opposed to other studios. The nurb of GT always astonished me how accurate it always was, and is.

 

[FordGTGuy]

I believe PD does not boast about their track modelling technology as opposed to other studios. The nurb of GT always astonished me how accurate it always was, and is.

Within 15 mm, which is accurate enough for GPS but too inaccurate for laser scanning as we already established... c'mon guys.

 

[Toysuprahot]

Within 15 mm, which is accurate enough for GPS but too inaccurate for laser scanning as we already established... c'mon guys.

Other factors may have played a role outside of the process of recording the track, like how the precision of textures back in 2005, etc.. The leap from 5 mm to 15 is not significant. Also, it is possible they may have used not the most expensive tool to do it.

 

[Samus]

His posts don't sound like he thinks something is true, rather a statement of what he knows to be true: Link

With absolutely no citation. Are we just to take his word, because he is an 'insider'?

 

[Earth]

 

[FordGTGuy]

Other factors may have played a role outside of the process of recording the track, like how the precision of textures back in 2005, etc.. The leap from 5 mm to 15 is not significant. Also, it is possible they may have used not the most expensive tool to do it.

Uhh no, we already established that laser scanning equipment of the time was capable of 5mm from 50 meters.

I can't find a single laser scanner that is inaccurate to the point of 15 mm at 50 meters.

Nurburgring is 13 meters wide, meaning that if the scanner were mounted on a truck the distance between the scanner and the walls of the track at max would be 6.5 meters.

A laser scanner that is capable of 5 mm(this is not max accuracy it is just the accuracy at 50 meters meaning that at 6.5 meters we're talking about 1mm accuracy.) at 50 meters is not going to somehow inexplicably get 15 mm at 6.5 meters.

ALSO GPS data is accurate within 10 mm give or take which lines up much nicer and makes a lot more sense then laser scanning.

On top of everything, there isn't a single mention of laser scanning anywhere but we do have footage of GPS data collection being used during the creation of GT4.



Please give me a single piece of evidence beyond the word of someone who doesn't work and PD.

Hell give me a piece of evidence that even points towards laser scanning(the slide isn't evidence as I've already established that 15 mm points to GPS and not laser scannning.).

 

[Samus]

Also I know we weren't so connected in the world as we are now back in 2004 but I find it extremely hard to believe that PD or whoever rocked up at the ring, spent what must have been several days laser scanning it with huge ass equipment and not one person documented it independently. When there was talk of it being laser scanned for PC sims a few years ago it was always mentioned that it was a world first. Surely SOMEONE, other than apparently Amar and PD, must have known about it?

 

[FordGTGuy]

Also I know we weren't so connected in the world as we are now back in 2004 but I find it extremely hard to believe that PD or whoever rocked up at the ring, spent what must have been several days laser scanning it with huge ass equipment and not one person documented it independently. When there was talk of it being laser scanned for PC sims a few years ago it was always mentioned that it was a world first. Surely SOMEONE, other than apparently Amar and PD, must have known about it?

You crazy bro... it was laser scanned, I know it in my gut!

BTW Turn 10 had to rent out Nurburgring for two days to do it.

 

[mister dog]

Haha a whole page going back and forth about laserscanning vs GPS, with an interlude of Hitler.
Gotta love sim racers

 

[FordGTGuy]

Haha a whole page going back and forth about laserscanning vs GPS, with an interlude of Hitler.
Gotta love sim racers

At least we are mostly being civil.... well except for Hitler.