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- channel islands
- lebretonbros
The GT6 Epic Whining and Crying Thread
- Thread starter HaylRayzor
- 6,682 comments
- 422,405 views
- 433
- MR2 Land
- rollingzoku92
I'm gonna wait to till GT6 comes out, wait one day see how the community receives the game, then maybe I'll buy it. If i don't like what I see or hear, I'll just save $63.xx dollars toward upgrading my Pc for real sims.
- 349
- Midwest
- McLOVIN5489
Disagree.... No one can please everyone. It's a developer's right to create their own product as they see fit. And I agree with Zer0. GT is not the only game out there of its kind. At this point, the rebuttals toward that fact are different versions of "I don't want to hear that, I want to continue to criticize" which does turn into whining after a while in my opinion. It's their right to criticize, etc., but I see plenty of usernames that have absolutely nothing but negativity for PD. Just like there are "fanboys", there are "haters". One cannot acknowledge one without the other..if you use the term "fanboy" you should not be offended by the term "hater" and vice versa. There are plenty of people in the middle,though, and I take them the most seriouslylancia delta hf
Zer0
(Banned)
- 1,624
Hey, I was not the one pointing at the people that could want to buy a newer version of a game that previously have enjoyed for the only reason to be a better game or to love the series.
Is the same as if came to the FM5 forum and questioned all the happy guys that can't wait to play the game saying that the demos are no more than FM4 with better graphics, with more cars and tracks and that the fact that T10 know that they can sell the game to their fans just based on that, likely strongly affect how they approach designing each game.
In that forum that would be considered trolling.
There is a double standard in much of those critics based on to prefer other games and not GT, and that was my point. Honest and reasonable critics from the fans are not a problem, those are necessary and always welcomed. It's the work of Kaz to filter all the mess.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
- 13,913
- Adelaide
- Neomone
At the moment FM5 does indeed appear to be a shiny FM4 with buffed physics and AI. It's almost certain to have less cars than FM4, and the total number of tracks is unknown last I looked. No one knows whether to expect more than FM4 or not.
Some people are happy to buy that anyway, and that's why T10 can get away with stuff like leaving out weather and day/night (still). Some people think it's a travesty, and have given up entirely. Some are still in debate over it.
There's plenty of the same stuff going on over in the FM forums as goes on here. It's just a smaller community. There's a lot of stuff that people are excited about, and some pretty big disappointments. That's life.
So don't make it sound like the FM forum is somehow different to the GT forum. It's not. It's almost exactly the same.
Telling the truth as I see it about how game designers with a relatively captive audience have greater flexibility in how they approach the design of their games is as acceptable in one as it is in the other. As long as I'm not rude and aggressive about it, I'm free to express my opinion. If you wish to rebut it, try actually arguing against the point instead of labelling everyone as haters or lovers, or blaming it on the forum culture.
- 926
- machschnel
But FM4 didn't need a massive update, it already had -
*Pirrelli derived tire model
*Passable sounds
*Livery Editor
*Leaderboards
*Easy, practical UI
*Ability to create-a-race (online only)
*Torque steer
GT5 had none of those things and at the moment, it looks like GT6 will only add (from that list) a Yokohama derived tire model and a better UI.
Do you not see the distinction here?
- 17,903
- Florida
- GranTurismo0517
- RandomCarGuy17
Okay, I have to say this about PD, they have to stop worrying about the car count so much with their duplicates and other nonsense. If you make a premium model of a car that was just standard before; GET RID OF THE STANDARD. That car is no longer of use if there's a better detailed version of that model taking its place.
I also wish they would show the standard cars already so I can see the visual differences between them and the premiums. I know the functional differences are gone, but the visual one's are still present as far as I know. I just want to see how good (or bad) they look to see what I'm in for in terms of car selection.
Okay, my complaining (or ranting) is over.
I also wish they would show the standard cars already so I can see the visual differences between them and the premiums. I know the functional differences are gone, but the visual one's are still present as far as I know. I just want to see how good (or bad) they look to see what I'm in for in terms of car selection.
Okay, my complaining (or ranting) is over.
- 2,568
- Wonderland
- zyla-corps
- N/A
- 10,958
- Canada
+2
Not gonna lie, I saw the gameplay and does appear to be so. Knew it for awhile now.
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- 1,928
- San Bernardino, California
- Gerarghini
- Gerarghini
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
I know this is the official grouch thread, but I wanted to address this with the usual TenD wall of text.
I'm one of those who are pre-ordering GT6 on the basis of it being the newest Gran Turismo. But there's more to it than that. Besides the fact that clearly PD have put some stunning work into the game - upping the resolution to 1440x1080@60fps, the HECK?! When folk like Scaff and I were positive they'd have to cut corners like dropping to 720p before they could improve squat. That's just amazing to me.
The reason I'm so positive about GT6 is because of who the people of Polyphony are, of who Kazunori is. I know that a whole gob of people are still dumping on GT5 as an utter disaster of a game. But millions of us disagree. I don't see how this can even be argued in the face of a million more new sales since December, with all the used games which have to be flooding the market. The fans, as is often said, are voting with their wallets.
I'm with them. I mean, sure, GT5 is THE MOST criticized Gran Turismo game in history. With darn few exceptions, all of us here have grouched about a few issues in GT5 which irked them to no end. I'm with you guys too. But, not to thinking the game is a disaster. It's still so wonderful to me, I ignore most of the games I own, even new PS3 games. Well, except for Forza 4, but I can't say no to that Livery Editor, and the driving model is thrilling too, in ways GT5 can't touch. But I digress,
GT5 is still that special to me, that I can't stay away from it. I have to race in it. I have to get my virtual hands on those 1900-plus cars in my garage, the vast majority the oft hated Standards. I love it to death, and will till my death. The only thing which can truly overshadow the latest Gran Turismo is the newest Gran Turismo, because the team is good, and the team really cares about the game. Kaz in particular, the godfather of one of the greatest racing games ever made.
What you guys think is irrelevant to me, unless in some way you agree. Everyone wants to feel camaraderie over something that thrills them. The criticisms, I understand. The spite and vitriol, I don't, and I tread it underfoot.
This is the home of the fans of Gran Turismo, and it's this camaraderie over a cool game that draws me here. Especially when a new one is coming which I have no doubt will be a magnificent experience. Your experience may vary, but that's cool. Just don't expect me to join in the downer mope.
- 13,913
- Adelaide
- Neomone
This is a perfect example of what I was trying to say.
The reason GT6 can be whatever it wants to be, is because it knows it has people like you and others who will buy it just because.
I'm trying to put that in a way that's not negative, because it need not be. It's just a thing. Many people were impressed enough with GT5 and others that they're willing to put down money on a game more or less sight unseen. The sight unseen bit is less true now that we have a fairly substantial info from Gamescom, but there were lots of people that preordered the moment it was announced. The people that would support PD regardless, because they believe in what they're doing.
That's great, and it gives PD the financial security to not necessarily worry about what will be the most successful commercially, and to work on what they think will be best artistically. Artistically might not be the best choice of word there either, but it means they can make the game they want to make, instead of needing to add in Requested Feature X in the hope of picking up another 100,000 sales.
But those people that preordered on name alone were pretty much by definition not being objective, because there was almost nothing to be objective about. No information, no informed decision. And once that preorder is in, there's that tendency that humans have to form opinions to justify their own actions.
Some people may be able to preorder and continue to judge the game objectively as information is revealed. But human nature tends to push people towards justifying themselves. See that you yourself are talking about 1440@60, where the reality was that the demo had similar frame rate problems to GT5 and it's now got a kind of v-sync turned on exacerbating any dropped frames. It's not a stable 60fps in 1080p mode.
I'm not trying to attack that point in particular (because it's just not that important), more to point out how easy it is to let your perception of something change based on how you relate to it.
just kidding.
I'm holding out my complaints until I get my hands on the game. My judgement will rest on one fact: suspension tuning
If you take a FWD car, and put a massively stiff rear suspension, max stiff rear bar, and an ENTIRE FULL DEGREE of toe out in the rear, and this makes for INCREASED understeer (compared to a super-stiff front, soft rear) I will never buy another GT game again.
I desperately hope that they finally got suspension tuning right with KW's help. So many cars displayed entirely backwards and flawed responses to suspension tuning in GT5 that it ruined the game for me. There was no ability to take real knowledge of suspension tuning and apply it to the game.
If GT6 keeps this fundamental flaw, it will be my last GT purchase.
- 664
- United Kingdom
- counter345
The main dealbreaker for me in this Gran Turismo is the customizability, upgradeability or the level of uniqueness that can be applied to cars.
Chikane_GTR
Premium
- 8,146
- Heaven
i really got no compliants about gt6 other then the GTS-R 2013 not making the cut .. love that ALMS car .. 
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
I'm glad we're getting along so famously now.
And believe it or not, I'm trying to be diplomatic with Simon, Tornado, Slip and the rest of the posse. Anyway, the points. With my usual wall of text essay...I suppose the reason we're so beyond-optimistic with Kaz and the team, even blue-eyed utopian, is because they have this knack of making superb games most people want to play no matter what. Even flawed products like GT5. For the most part, this is the same Polyphony Digital family who gave us all the previous GTs, and which are unarguably great games. As I posted before, they didn't suffer some Big O-like amnesia and forget how to make great games. Stuff came up like fumbling for a starting concept, then the PS3 proved to be a bear to grapple with, then GT PSP was dropped on the table, then damage was attempted then mostly scrapped, then 3D became a wedgied in feature...
Yeah, that's a mess developers usually don't have to deal with. Still, I think the team should have had their heads screwed on a little better, which given almost five years of likely grueling work - Kaz saw his family on holidays - might be asking a lot. Given another year of work, we might have ended up with something more like GT6. But we were growing so exasperated, it was almost to the point of torches and pitchforks, and SONY needed that game out. The team wrapped up what they had, planned on DLC to amortize grief into acceptance and some profit, and this is what we got. Given the near worst case scenario GT5 was born in, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised about that.
I'm still in love with the game, but if this had been a fledgling developer, I might have half-folded my arms with the rest of you and pouted just a bit to force home points that griped me about GT5: the paint chip mess, the XP system - scrapped, thank God! - the tiny number of RMs and their wretchedly simple "liveries" - all of one paintable area - sound quality, scant damage build, lack of Livery Editor, skimpy online structure, etc etc. I'd want the sequel to be as good as possible, and that's part of the reason I quit grouching at the grouchers, because Kaz and the team do listen. And as many of you have said, Gran Turismo really needs to grow up and join the 21st Century, like many other racers have. And as usual I'm digressing, a huge surprise I know.
Maybe I should focus and bring up a quote:I really don't get this from any of Kaz's interviews. Take the Livery Editor, one of the hotly debated wishlist items for GT6. Kaz was unequivocal that it's "something they are working on right now." A full blown editor? He doesn't think it will make it, but he'll have more to say about that at the Tokyo Game Show. Realistic sound is something he knows most fans want, and will do something more than we got in previous GTs. He wants to make a revolutionary breakthrough, but thinks we will like what's provided in GT6.
But besides the bullet points, any time he hints at what he wants to accomplish in Gran Turismo, it lines up with my own wishes to be realized in the game. And it's a pretty vast dream he wants to capture: the whole of the automotive and racing world. To me, that means eventually we'll have our racing sim, with flag marshals and the whole enchilada. It means online communities, clubs and entire user defined racing leagues with whole online racing seasons with a calendar and schedules. It means autocrossing online with cones laid down by the host. It means drag racing, drift and touge, perhaps even cruising through a traffic filled metropolis, or rustic European township like Andelucia. And any kind of bodykit and graphic you want on your car.
And if anyone can deliver that kind of game, Polyphony can, led by that crazy visionary, Kazunori.
I know you mentioned the problems with the demos, and the recent one even having framerate issues itself. Heck, I could see it drop into the teens on Wildwood around one turn. But remember, the game hasn't been optimized yet. Most games aren't until the final month or so before release, when all the final tweaking and polishing is done, testing, last minute fine tuning, and then off it goes. Kaz is sure that he'll be releasing a game running at 60 frames per second, so it's clear he's aware of the issue. If it dips sometimes in the release game, I won't cry. I've seen it flutter along on empty stretches of a Course Maker track I made in GT5, but it doesn't hurt my drive even though it happens at a crucial point in the turn. If it hurts someone's experience... well, sorry, but that's life. It's really not that uncommon for me to find a game that has screen issues of some kind, and I'm just not into throwing tantrums for no real reason.
A long post to detail why I have faith in a guy and his virtual family, but I think things like this need to be said, because complaining with no diplomacy to soften it is so rare these days, and praise, even more scarce. But more essential than ever. How many times do you recall being thanked for something? It sticks in my mind like a candle.
- 40,895
In that forum, it would be considered having a basis of disagreement; which would then be debated from there. For example, there were some developer statements about tire wear and endurance races that implied that such ideas was some secondary thing that no one should care about and that's why Turn 10 didn't bother; and there was a largely amicable discussion about whether or not an actual racing focus was something Turn 10 was falling farther and farther away from. There was also a great discussion about some of the developer comments about the sound design for the game, when the implication was made that they would be overboosted because that is what people wanted to hear rather then them being accurate. And I simply assume you're ignorant of the uproar when night and weather racing was said to not be happening, particularly because it was said to not be in FM4 because of a performance issue which obviously no longer applies, because I'm sure you wouldn't intentionally misrepresent such a thing.
With one or two exceptions (which are resoundingly ignored by all sides anyway), there are very few people who frequent that forum who have fallen into a Dan Greenawalt personality cult in comparison to the case in this forum with the Kaz equivalent; and if you're finding otherwise, it probably (surprise surprise) has to do with how you conduct yourself when presenting those contrary opinions.
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- 13,913
- Adelaide
- Neomone
This is my one difference. I know you and a lot of people take his interviews pretty seriously, but he's not the most reliable of sources. He has a tendency to give fairly vague answers to anything he's not willing to talk about, instead of a simple "I can't talk about that yet". And he does have a tendency at times to let his mouth get a bit ahead of where the rest of him is.
Livery editor has been kicking around since 2006. He's gone back and forth on sounds from perfect to needs work. There's a bunch of things that are pretty wishy-washy.
The guy does well as a charismatic head of the company, and he's excellent at getting across his enthusiasm for cars. But he's not the most accurate communicator. English being a second language and having to use Translator-san doesn't help, but clear communication is important.
Admittedly, they're doing a lot better in the lead up to GT6 than they did in the lead up to GT5. But I still take pretty much everything he says with a grain of salt. I think he describes what his vision is for what should be happening, but sometimes he doesn't quite account for what his team can actually accomplish in the time given.
For example, his vision is to have improved sounds for GT6, but the team may run into some huge obstacle. Not his fault for saying improved sounds will happen, not their fault because they'll be working as hard as they can, but at the end of the day it ends up as false information and a disappointment to the customer.
Not saying that's what will happen, just as an example of how well intentioned communication on Kaz's part could end up biting him in the posterior. Honestly, I think he could really use someone whose job was purely to distribute information. He maintains his place as figurehead and gives his vision speeches at the start of presentations, and then someone who purely trains for it takes over the bulk of the information distribution and Q&A.
Probably won't happen, head of development has taken on a bit of a rock star status since the indy movement started in earnest. Everyone wants to pick the brain of the genius behind the game directly. But some people aren't that good at live interviews and the like, and you have to make allowances.
- 926
- machschnel
This.
If Polyphony were a little more forthcoming, especially this late in proceedings, I think a lot of the arguments and hypothesizing that goes on here would vanish.
In typical Polyphony fashion though, they identified the problem but went the wrong way about fixing it. People were disappointed by GT5 thanks (among other things) to the unstoppable hype train that preceded it. So what was Polyphonys solution for the sequel? Don't say anything until a few months out and even then release information in drips and drabs.
Just tell us what's going on. Let us hear the sounds. Let us see the standards. Livery editor yay or nay.
HKS racer
(Banned)
- 4,802
They have the new GT6 site, which is full of blatant marketing like this:
Did they explain why they create a 3d model of a race car and then they don't create a race series for it? NO.
Did they explain why that Lexus DTM Prototype has no liveries? NO
Did they explain why there is not a Caterham Cup while having a Caterham in the game? NO
Did they explain why AI must be so weak? NO.
Ok I stop here, the thing is, if you put someone as PR marketing, the only option he had is to go difensive deliberately ignoring ALL the jungle of illogic PD decisions, and boast about pixel tessellation, GTA, 120000000 cars (without focusing on dupes), Annyversary liveries! How awesome the Annyversary liveries! Preorder preorder preorder!!!! That's what they are doing.
What really need to happen at PD is to loose sales, come back to Earth, realize how to improve the game in those little things, called features, options, AI, race series, championships, things that doesn't necessarily require new 3d modelling and shaders, that's what GT really need. If millions of people like TenD will buy the game no matter what NOTHING will change.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
HKS racer
(Banned)
- 4,802
The problem with Forza 5 is I need to play the waiting game there are little info to speculate, AI and compatible wheels my biggest concern so far.I think you'll be surpriiiiised. Unless you really did give up on GT5 like you said in that other section. Regardless, we have less than a month until some more details get revealed. And I'm hopeful they keep a lot of things secret so we can be surpriiiiised when we fire it up.
About Gran Turismo I'll keep posting my ideas because I really would like the series to improve but what do you tell me about Project Cars?
Quoting from their site:
This is exactly the kind of stuff Gran Turismo should do.
- 2,980
- Curitiba
I think you'll be surpriiiiised. Unless you really did give up on GT5 like you said in that other section. Regardless, we have less than a month until some more details get revealed. And I'm hopeful they keep a lot of things secret so we can be surpriiiiised when we fire it up.
I'm a frustrated racing driver like pretty much everyone else in here. Gran Turismo, since 1998, has been some kind of "dreams coming true" to me. I've played all five games, really dig into each one (skipped the Prologue ones). I like the way that GT makes you feel about cars, tracks, racing and all this automotive lust.
But.
But since GT5, since all these misleading marketing, the very stupid gameplay, the lack of content, of care about we, who really make this game big, have drifted me away from GT. I even start to look for other racing games trying to find every single bit that GT5 didn't gave me. Being a livery editor, more realistic physics, sounds, better gameplay, CARS. I've found myself going through other games because of the lack of relevant cars in a GT game!
I fear that GT6 will be another blow in that same route. With some improvements, but with a crushing, massive, pack of bad things. Why? Well, by how many years have we claimed about a livery editor? And about sounds? Seriously, a Sony studio, making "the real driving simulator" thinks "hum, you know what? those generic sounds of GT4 will do just fine on GT5". And so on.
And, honestly, who can say that it won't? Kazunori? Well, for starters, he doesn't say much. And when he did, was something about "sound are great", "we didn't need that", "it's fine in the way it is now", "it's a placeholder". I take every single bit of information regarding GT6 with a grain of salt. I can't be optimistic with PD since GT5.
GT6 could be the first GT that i might skip. I'm excited, hoping for a better game, but if turns out that GT6 is GT5+1, well, sorry. Project CARS, iRacing, Forza will do.
TenaciousD talks about the figures of sales in GT5. But, who cares? Here, in Brazil, even today, is very usual find a brand new PS3 console with GT5 in the package in every major shop. People bought GT5 because It's free, it came along.
And, few weeks ago, Poliphony Digital said that, in a given day, 100.000 people play GT5. So, if numbers tell the story all by themselves, i could say that, today, 10,4 milion players can't stand the game anymore.
So, who cares if you sell a billion of copies with the hardware and nobody plays it? I care, but PD and Sony, don't. I care because i want a better game, i want a great GT game.
But GT is kind a Super Mario, or CoD game. Looks like the same thing, over and over again. They will never change the basics, because billions buy the damn disc, no matter what number of cliches the developers compiled in the newest one.
Sure, GT6 will be a massive success of sales. Good or bad, don't matter, the game will sell ludicrously.
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SuperCobraJet
(Banned)
- 2,472
- Virginia USA
- SuperCobraJet1
I feel confident saying, many of us here share similar sentiments.
I particularly like your numbers comments.
Unfortunately, they don't want to know or don't care, how many people are dissatisfied or fed up with the game at this point.
They certainly don't keep statistics on it, and if they did, they would never be made public.
Nevertheless, that fact does not supercede the relevance of this segment.
I truly believe GT6 is a defining moment for the series.
Most of the criticism expressed on this site since GT5, is legitimate and only serves to show how the game could or should be improved.
Some things, like the sounds, are long overdue.
CodeName
(Banned)
- 474
- Veigy Foncenex
- stylel-soheib
I feel GT6 will bring the GT feel that was missing in GT5, it's goint to be the best GT ever!!!
- 2,980
- Curitiba
And there is a staggering fact in this lack of compromise and communication. Gran Turismo is one of the most recognizable game franchises in the world, right?
Well, It don't have even a official forum! Hey, GTPlanet owners, you're doing a great job, don't get me wrong, but the fact is that the people who makes the game don't even care to have a direct channel to the costumers.
SuperCobraJet
(Banned)
- 2,472
- Virginia USA
- SuperCobraJet1
