The GT6 Epic Whining and Crying Thread

[A_Higher_Place]

Guess we won't know until we're actually playing GT6

Yes we will, and we already do. It won't be in the game.

 

[CodeName]

Maybe the game from the videos is not GT6, it might be a placeholder game Muahahahahahaha!

 

[napalmhardcore]

The question i've to ask myself evertime is Why PD can't get the sounds right? Is it so difficult?

I think it is more difficult than a lot of people think. I made a post a few pages back detailing some of the challenges faced. But on the other hand other studios make a much better job of it than PD. I'm not sure exactly what the problem is, whether it be the person in charge of sound design just doesn't have a knack for it or something else. They do need to improve it though, so hopefully we can see this implemented in the not too distant future.

 

[Downhill Dino]

In real racing only one person from the field of 16 people can win.
In PD's philosophy, that person should always be the player.

Am I missing something here? Isn't that how all racing games are? Sure, some have a difficulty setting where one can challenge themselves, if they so choose but the developer always wants the player to win. No use in playing if you can't win right? Making the game difficult off the bat will score low with the common player. Basically what I'm getting at, they need difficulty settings to allow all kinds of players rather then static AI intelligence.

 

[PaullyS]

Am I missing something here? Isn't that how all racing games are? Sure, some have a difficulty setting where one can challenge themselves, if they so choose but the developer always wants the player to win. No use in playing if you can't win right? Making the game difficult off the bat will score low with the common player. Basically what I'm getting at, they need difficulty settings to allow all kinds of players rather then static AI intelligence.

I dunno, man, in Shift 2 (and yes, I know there are many things wrong with that game) the goal was always to get on the podium and the AI was really hard to beat, which made getting a podium really rewarding. I felt good getting a third or second as well as a first in that game (but ultimately the weird as hell handling and stupidly short races made me lose interest really quickly).

 

[TokoTurismo]

Am I missing something here? Isn't that how all racing games are? Sure, some have a difficulty setting where one can challenge themselves, if they so choose but the developer always wants the player to win. No use in playing if you can't win right? Making the game difficult off the bat will score low with the common player. Basically what I'm getting at, they need difficulty settings to allow all kinds of players rather then static AI intelligence.

This. 👍 I'm no hardcore in racing games, I like my AIs setted in Normal diffcult.

 

[Eks]

No use in playing if you can't win right?

Winning is cool and all, but what I don't like is always winning, and that's the case with GT5. (well, the case being that it's too easy to win, at least)

 

[HKS racer]

Well, what a kind guy there. Do you see life dark? You have no hope for anything? You just get over? I have never seen Kaz lying to us, everything he said, he did. How much time do I have to say it: ALL THIS IS PLACEHOLDER! You already know! So what do you want? Damn GT6 everyday for x reason? Your posts are more stupid than anything, have no purpose, but is only here to add more sorrow here, more darkness, you say to get over it... What a good advice... It seems you are not happy with the amazing work PD is giving us. Zer0 is the complete opposite, he adds smiley (well you mentioned it first lol), he tries to be significant in his posts, and tries to find a positive way for something. Hey, I know life is not pink, but it isn't also dark.

Thanks for bringing this pearl of wisdom to the thread, we really need it. Who need to talk about GT6 anymore let's all talk about the positive side of things, because some faint hearted have no guts to actually discuss about gameplay problems of a racing VIDEOGAME and gets depressed if someone point out an obvious issue with AI. Oh My Godness. Gran Turismo 6 The Real Psychoanalysis Simulator.

Let's find a positive way in something you need 54 seconds to get from last place to 1st. Well that would come handy in real life when you're stuck in traffic. Read the thread title, if you are bored to hear about GT6 problems, maybe you just need to quit this thread and read about flowers, nature, joga forums. They actually exist just search them. Oh and here's a couple of smiley Hope you enjoyed my post I surely enjoyed this statement:

How much time do I have to say it: ALL THIS IS PLACEHOLDER!

EPIC.

Best Regards.


Ok, on a more serious note, to all the people saying Forza is the only competitor I have a couple of news.
The first one is:
United Racing Designs they are doing high quality payware mods for rFactor 1 and 2. They just released DTM cars for a good price. I consider payware mods like DLC's, the quality and attention to detail is great, lights years better than your average rFactor mod. And, if you are a livery addict like me, you can paint them. Check it out you might be interested.

second news:
Enduracers Flat 6 Skinpack Basically this is the high quality mod forbidden by Porsche because of licensing issues. Enduracers didn't give up changed some details, the name of the car and now we have 1 gigabyte of skins for this awesome car for... FREE. Just WOW.

 

[Wolfe]

Racing games ought to truly reward a hard-earned 3rd place finish. Enthusia Professional Racing did that with its odds system -- you get more points for an OK finish in a slower car than winning in a faster car -- and it really encouraged you to get the most out of the AI by taking a slower car. I've had countless tight races in that game.

 

[Eks]

How much time do I have to say it: ALL THIS IS PLACEHOLDER!

Quoted.

 

[TokoTurismo]

Racing games ought to truly reward a hard-earned 3rd place finish. Enthusia Professional Racing did that with its odds system -- you get more points for an OK finish in a slower car than winning in a faster car -- and it really encouraged you to get the most out of the AI by taking a slower car. I've had countless tight races in that game.

Ahh Enthusia. A game that kept me smiling when I couldn't play GT4 due to the PS2, but I was thankful for it. The game tought me so many things, it was tough. I must get that game again.

 

[CodeName]

Quoted.

Thanks thanks, I'm glad you all like that XD. But i was serious, this is not the final game, the final game comes out in 3 months. For some people, it needs to be reminded often.

 

[HKS racer]

Thanks thanks, I'm glad you all like that XD. But i was serious, this is not the final game, the final game comes out in 3 months. For some people, it needs to be reminded often.

So if we can't comments on GT6 Demo videos, because "ALL THIS IS PLACEHOLDER!" tell the site founder to go ahead and close GT6 forum until Day One. Hmm, I have the feeling he won't be that happy.

Ok, without sarcasm, the thing is we comments on what we have, when PD will finally improve AI we'll praise them until then, you have to deal with people like me pointing out obvious AI problems.

 

[djs]

My main issue with the AI is that it breaks too early for the corners and it carries little speed through them.

 

[mr_serious]

Am I missing something here? Isn't that how all racing games are? Sure, some have a difficulty setting where one can challenge themselves, if they so choose but the developer always wants the player to win. No use in playing if you can't win right? Making the game difficult off the bat will score low with the common player. Basically what I'm getting at, they need difficulty settings to allow all kinds of players rather then static AI intelligence.

Not all racing games are like that no. Traditionally 'simulation' games have also attempted to simulate the difficulty of the task in hand. As I said earlier almost every other racing game I have played has had a scalable AI with an Easy mode for the casuals and at some point a hard mode where you really feel like you have achieved something to come in the top 5.

For real racers the car to car, corner to corner battle is what provides the reward. A high finish position is just a bonus.

This is a rhetorical question but in say a field of 22 drivers, for every winner there are 21 non-winners, and yet they continue to race? Why is that do you suppose?

In GT5 it is not just the AI that is the problem. The race formats are ridiculous, the lack of restrictions allowing you to run an overpowered car, on over powered tyres against an AI that can be beaten by a novice 8 year old after 5 minutes is laughable.

And please find me an example of a real world event like the seasonals? That really is the sort of crap you used to get in Arcades when I was a kid - the car was just a static sprite at the bottom of the screen, and the road was drawn vertically, moved around a bit. The idea was to just keep getting past the other car sprites.

That's what GT5 (and GT6 demo) remind me of these days. Utterly un-realistic.

Do you think this is what Kaz's own racing experience was like?

 

[Downhill Dino]

Not all racing games are like that no. Traditionally 'simulation' games have also attempted to simulate the difficulty of the task in hand. As I said earlier almost every other racing game I have played has had a scalable AI with an Easy mode for the casuals and at some point a hard mode where you really feel like you have achieved something to come in the top 5.

I suppose that was an exaggeration on my part. Most games I've played are pretty easy, those that do not have a difficulty option.

This is a rhetorical question but in say a field of 22 drivers, for every winner there are 21 non-winners, and yet they continue to race? Why is that do you suppose?

I'm going to answer it anyways. Retiring would make any points/prizes they could earn null and void. There is no reason for them to retire. If we're talking about games, offline AI have to race, online people can quit. And wow do a lot of people online quit because they're not winning.

And please find me an example of a real world event like the seasonals? That really is the sort of crap you used to get in Arcades when I was a kid - the car was just a static sprite at the bottom of the screen, and the road was drawn vertically, moved around a bit. The idea was to just keep getting past the other car sprites.

Actually I could, on a race track nearby there was a guy who had a car vastly superior to everyone else's (I believe it was a Lotus Super 7) and he would start at the back of the grid and make his way up, even lapping sometimes.

Do you think this is what Kaz's own racing experience was like?

I kind of want to say yes, considering the VLN races he participates in involves a lot of classes that are slower then his own which he has to make his way by just to catch the next guy. But I suppose that doesn't actually fit the description.

 

[Scaff]

Thanks thanks, I'm glad you all like that XD. But i was serious, this is not the final game, the final game comes out in 3 months. For some people, it needs to be reminded often.

Want to guess how many of your place holders end up in the final game?

 

[CodeName]

Want to guess how many of your place holders end up in the final game?

Are you working at PD if you know the answer? Did you have to check my post? Because i'm not the only one saying that here.

 

[Imari]

Are you working at PD if you know the answer? Did you have to check my post? Because i'm not the only one saying that here.

Honestly, even if some stuff is placeholder, there's only so much they can fix before the game goes gold. And even then it begs the question what were they doing for the last two and a half years?

You're right in a sense that some stuff will likely be improved. But I seriously doubt all the things that are currently being claimed as placeholder (sounds, AI, graphical issues, etc) will be fixed on release. It's too much.

 

[Scaff]

Are you working at PD if you know the answer? Did you have to check my post? Because i'm not the only one saying that here.

I ask the question simply because the place holder excuse has been used in the past for PD, for things that have never changed.

How long does something have to be a place holder for?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I ask the question simply because the place holder excuse has been used in the past for PD, for things that have never changed.

How long does something have to be a place holder for?

It is the reason being used by PD.

Placeholder thing might even turn out to be final if they don't make the breakthroughs required and will very likely know about it if after a major game update, it still remains the same. Maybe an apology by Kaz will be made too.

 

[Tenacious D]

When and if AI will be REALLY improved it has to be seen.
For now GT6 AI is nothing more than a lie. Get over it.

Erm... this is the kind of over the top stuff which kills dialog here. It's only a lie when it isn't delivered. It's not December yet. So the A.I. for now is... dare I say it... a placeholder. Yes, I said it. And my statement is irritating, but not a lie.

I think a lot of people need to get over themselves. I want Gran Turismo to be perfect too, but though I personally think my vision for Gran Turismo would make several million fans ecstatic because it may well be Kaz's vision too, my idea of a perfect GT may well not be yours. When Gran Turismo isn't everything I wanted, I don't take it as a personal insult because Kaz didn't make my game for me and should know better. A lot of things about GT5 were just bizarre to me, one of my faves is grouching about a paint shop with NO PAINT! How cosmically wrong is that?

But how I respond says more about me than it does GT5, or SONY, or PD, or Kaz. I don't get derogatory, I don't call all those people names, or accuse them of not caring, or being lazy, or stupid or whatever. I grind, so I can grind a flake from cars with those colors I want into paint. I ask - well, beg, that Kaz doesn't do this again. I assume that the paint shop has paint, and the chips are some weird game thing that will make sense somehow. Am I a dummyhead for trusting Kaz and the team? Sure, whatever, I don't care what people think.

But as I said in another thread, bullying developers and their fans doesn't really accomplish much, but make the fans angry and the developers use a lot of IGNORE. And if you guys really can't get enough of causing hurt feelings... well, I'm glad we're not neighbors...

And I know that this is the "epic whining and crying" thread, but does it have to really be "Just make crap up in the strongest possible - permissible - language" thread? Just wondering.

Unfortunately that isn't true. Even set to 10 the AI only seem fast because they have a better car than you.

So?

I've had this discussion before with a guy who was making the case that you can make the game fun by hampering your car. And he got dumped on for it. Which after reflecting on the issue a bit is really silly. Difficulty normally hamstrings the bots, or makes them stronger.

But... the other guys got grouchy because they don't want to hamstring the car... why? What's the difference? Slanting the odds either way?

It's like this girlfriend of mine that liked to roleplay with me, no one else, just me. But she got it into her head that the Muck client was the only way to do it, until the muck we used died. I tried for some time to get her to accept typing those words in chat was the same thing, but it took forever for her to come around to seeing it like that. Because she got it in her head that RP meant using the client, and some other way just wasn't RPing.

I think too many people just decide things like that. In racing games, it seems insanely hard to convince some people that making a video game to start with is a huge compromise. You aren't in a car. You can't feel squat of it. It accepts inputs and responds and does things. Sometimes we like it and call it realistic, and sometimes it doesn't, we get mad and call it arcadey or something. And every game is different, handles differently, sounds differently, has bots that act differently...

But for some reason, some games bring out strong reactions and different boundaries are drawn in a way that makes me wonder if it's in blood for some people, especially here. And when some of us don't care what others' boundaries are, they get cranky and come to the brink of calling someone a fanboy for not being as hard nosed about the same boundaries.

To me, it's basic math. I give up Gran Turismo because of... sound quality, bot behavior, online options, an empty paint shop, Standard cars... whatever. What can replace it?

I went through this in another thread. Forza, iRacing, PC sims... other simcadey console racers... they just don't have what GT does. At the least, it takes two games. And it still doesn't give me what a Gran Turismo game does. And I keep coming back to that. Is any aspect of a GT game so bad, I'd drop it? Heck no. I'd have to gripe at all the games I have at least as much because they wouldn't be Gran Turismo. And for you guys whose tastes run the other way, hey, free universe. I doubt Kaz will cry if you don't buy his game. Another gamer will give that Blu-Ray disc a good home.

Gripe. But gripe responsibly. And now I'm officially mostly dead.

 

[mr_serious]

I'm going to answer it anyways. Retiring would make any points/prizes they could earn null and void. There is no reason for them to retire. If we're talking about games, offline AI have to race, online people can quit. And wow do a lot of people online quit because they're not winning.

I was comparing GTs racing to real world racing, not bedroom racers.

The reason that racers race is because the racing is enjoyable. It offers its own reward. GTs offline racing is dull which is why doing any event once feels like a grind let alone repeatedly.

Actually I could, on a race track nearby there was a guy who had a car vastly superior to everyone else's (I believe it was a Lotus Super 7) and he would start at the back of the grid and make his way up, even lapping sometimes.

Or you could have just said no, since no-one other than you can check your apocryphal race format, which sounds like a track day not a racing event.

 

[Downhill Dino]

I was comparing GTs racing to real world racing, not bedroom racers.

And I was comparing all of the above.

Or you could have just said no, since no-one other than you can check your apocryphal race format, which sounds like a track day not a racing event.

Oh it was a legitimate race. You can decide not to believe it, it did happen, no reason to lie.

 

[machschnel]

It's not December yet. So the A.I. for now is... dare I say it... a placeholder. Yes, I said it. And my statement is irritating, but not a lie.

By definition, placeholders are only temporary, so isn't labeling the AI (or anything for that matter) as "placeholder" an admittance you think it will be changed?

What's differentiates that from someone who is saying they won't change? Both are guessing.

If I say the sounds won't change but add a catchy, one word slogan to it, does it actually change what I'm saying?

Of course not.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Maybe an apology by Kaz will be made too.

Has Kaz actually apologised for the content of any GT game before? A quick internet search suggests he's only ever apologised for the GT5 delay.

He certainly doesn't have the fortitude to give people a straight answer when quizzed about anything requested by the fans.

 

[Scaff]

It is the reason being used by PD.

Placeholder thing might even turn out to be final if they don't make the breakthroughs required and will very likely know about it if after a major game update, it still remains the same. Maybe an apology by Kaz will be made too.

Which doesn't actually address te question I asked, which was how many of these 'placeholders' do people think will end up being the final build?

The term is used by people at times deservedly, but at other times without any just cause, and in the case of AI and sound has now been used across multiple releases (handy hint - when that happens its not a placeholder - unless your happy to subscribe to an argument that Burnout is actually an uber sim - the physics for every release have however just been placeholders).

Erm... this is the kind of over the top stuff which kills dialog here. It's only a lie when it isn't delivered. It's not December yet. So the A.I. for now is... dare I say it... a placeholder. Yes, I said it. And my statement is irritating, but not a lie.

Based on past evidence (across the entire series) it actually carries no more weight at all.

So given that AI improvements have been promised since GT2 and no significant improvements have been made over the series I would say the balance falls in favour of the sceptical (unless you have some specific evidence to show otherwise).

I think a lot of people need to get over themselves. I want Gran Turismo to be perfect too, but though I personally think my vision for Gran Turismo would make several million fans ecstatic because it may well be Kaz's vision too, my idea of a perfect GT may well not be yours. When Gran Turismo isn't everything I wanted, I don't take it as a personal insult because Kaz didn't make my game for me and should know better. A lot of things about GT5 were just bizarre to me, one of my faves is grouching about a paint shop with NO PAINT! How cosmically wrong is that?

No one is asking for perfection, and in imply so you are being as inaccurate and intransigent as the very members you are complaining about.

But as I said in another thread, bullying developers and their fans doesn't really accomplish much, but make the fans angry and the developers use a lot of IGNORE. And if you guys really can't get enough of causing hurt feelings... well, I'm glad we're not neighbors...

Neither does sticking your head in teh sand. That said you are however once again exaggerating massively, and you know full well taht anyone posting in that manner is in breach of the AUP and the staff do act upon it (acknowledging that however would not allow you overblown and inaccurate point to be made).

And I know that this is the "epic whining and crying" thread, but does it have to really be "Just make crap up in the strongest possible - permissible - language" thread? Just wondering.

As long as its within the AUP then its fine. Don't like that then please feel free to not post in here, its not mandatory.

On the topic of making things up to prove a point, that's an accusation you would do well to not make of others, given your track record of claiming (totally inaccurately) that Sony can't invert in PD because they are totally cash strapped.

Oh it was a legitimate race. You can decide not to believe it, it did happen, no reason to lie.

Then I'm sure you will have no problem at all providing us a link to the race results (after all - every circuit I have been too provides on-line race results and reports - even the small club ones).

 

[Imari]

Another gamer will give that Blu-Ray disc a good home.

There's only so many people in the world, and there's only so many that would even be in the market for a GT-like game in the first place.

If PD make GT unattractive to enough people, they certainly will see the consequences.

Try making the same arguments, but replace the words "GT" with "Xbox One", and see if you still feel the same about it. MS did enough things that people thought were terrible, and saw a noticeable backlash.

Sometimes you make it sound like GT is invincible, and that if everyone who has issues with the game would just go away then everything would be peachy. Actually, that a significant number of people have concerns about the game is a bit of an indicator. Clouds on the horizon, if you will.

It's great that there's a core audience like yourself that see GT as irreplaceable and will buy it regardless, but even that core will probably see itself diminished if we get to GT7 and 8 with the same sounds, the same AI, the same career and licenses.

 

[Cosbuster]

I do wish it'd sell badly for once. It'd serve as a great wake-up call.

 

[Zer0]

Which doesn't actually address te question I asked, which was how many of these 'placeholders' do people think will end up being the final build?

There is no such thing as final build as probably the game will get little updates and new "Spec" versions along its life time. The real final build will be on their last update.

I would not expect a new AI and new sounds until PD does a public claim as a new characteristic in the official page (like they made with the actual new implemented features). And probably these will no be available in the launch date but could be part of the future updates.

http://www.gran-turismo.com/gb/products/gt6/technology/

Based on past evidence (across the entire series) it actually carries no more weight at all.

Based on past evidence no one would expect a Yokohama and KW technical partnership in GT6, you the first.

So given that AI improvements have been promised since GT2 and no significant improvements have been made over the series I would say the balance falls in favour of the sceptical (unless you have some specific evidence to show otherwise).

You act as if the AI have no advanced since GT1 and that is an obvious false claim. Really you need an evidence of that? The difference this time is that is specifically stated that the AI and sounds are being redefined from scratch along other aspects already implemented with clearly visible differences.

Actually, that a significant number of people have concerns about the game is a bit of an indicator. Clouds on the horizon, if you will.

And again the doomed theories based on a very few selected opinions that match yours and without any real solid evidence. Those black clouds have been there since the GT5 launch and were more darker a few years back than now after the years of continuos GT5 support, game change updates and the new GT6 characteristics (only a part) that have been announced.

As is said many times some people seem to stay in other reality when judge GT.