The GTP Unofficial 2020 US Elections Thread

GTPlanet Exit Poll - Which Presidential Ticket Did You Vote For?

  • Trump/Pence

    Votes: 16 27.1%
  • Biden/Harris

    Votes: 20 33.9%
  • Jorgensen/Cohen

    Votes: 7 11.9%
  • Hawkins/Walker

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • La Riva/Freeman

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • De La Fuente/Richardson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Blankenship/Mohr

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Carroll/Patel

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Simmons/Roze

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Charles/Wallace

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 15 25.4%

  • Total voters
    59
  • Poll closed .
As I said, I certainly can't see the future but I'm most certainly pessimistic when it comes to politics and the conservative side sliding towards the far right in near-lightspeed. What I can tell though, that having witnessed, even if from afar, how Hungary and Poland did it and the respective parliaments were completely complicit with their voter base cheering on literally anything they did, it wasn't particularly hard to foresee his actions. If you remember how people cheered on Trump when he said that he could get away by shooting someone dead on the 5th Avenue and staff like that, those were perfect examples what would come.

In the last few years the political right in general heads very clearly towards the far right extremist direction and their goal isn't hidden in any way: power grab at all cost and turn any democracy into an autocratic country with their best buddies placed in all relevant positions (judicial, political, economical). I still can hardly believe that people are simply put so idiotic that they don't see we're heading head first into the wall and into the next civil and world war but at the very least towards a very uncomfortable living situation called dictatorship.

This is the US, birthplace of the Bill of Rights. Democracy is (was) sacred here, as are constitutional protections. So much of what Trump has been railing against (especially this last year) is at the very core of the culture. To see it swing so wildly, in such a short period of time, is somewhat breathtaking.

And I don't just mean across the general public, I mean within my own family. People who have their entire lives talked about the sanctity of the constitution and the beauty of the American system are ready to tear it down for Trump. I know these people, I've known them for decades. The transformation is beyond anything I thought possible.

I'll grant you that Trump was saying things, and getting away with it, that he should not have been in 2016. But I had this, naive I guess, thought that when people realized he wasn't kidding, they would wake up. Imagine my surprise when I realize that the joke is not the authoritarian rhetoric, the joke was the rhetoric around checks and balances, human rights, and limited government. That was the untruth. That's why it got dropped so quickly.
 
This is the US, birthplace of the Bill of Rights. Democracy is (was) sacred here, as are constitutional protections. So much of what Trump has been railing against (especially this last year) is at the very core of the culture. To see it swing so wildly, in such a short period of time, is somewhat breathtaking.

And I don't just mean across the general public, I mean within my own family. People who have their entire lives talked about the sanctity of the constitution and the beauty of the American system are ready to tear it down for Trump. I know these people, I've known them for decades. The transformation is beyond anything I thought possible.

I'll grant you that Trump was saying things, and getting away with it, that he should not have been in 2016. But I had this, naive I guess, thought that when people realized he wasn't kidding, they would wake up. Imagine my surprise when I realize that the joke is not the authoritarian rhetoric, the joke was the rhetoric around checks and balances, human rights, and limited government. That was the untruth. That's why it got dropped so quickly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm surprised day by day how deeper and deeper we dive towards autocracy and how complicit the entire GOP and their voter base is. I don't want to start a dispute on the Bill of Rights as I have certain issues with specific points (you can guess which amendment specifically I despise) and my knowledge is anyway very basic (from my daughters' elementary school projects) but it seems that the GOP/Trump voters want a strongman dictating how to live and they're not tolerant at all that doesn't fit into their world view. As such, they're willing to throw away anything that made the US what it was.

For me the whole thing is about tolerance, tolerating that people are different. Different in skin color, gender, beliefs, thoughts or love interest, whatever. It seems though that after the civil rights movement in the '60s/'70s it was finally time for many to release the long-harbored hatred for anything that doesn't fit their world view. Things like the LMGBT community getting more and more attention just made this faster and here we are. On that note, if the LMGBT would be widely accepted, there would be no need for any sort of pro-LMGBT propaganda or Pride parades etc. in my opinion as those surely aggravate the typical GOP/Trump/conservative/right wing voters.

i must mention though 2 stories from the Hungarian politics. Obviously, the leading right wing party is all about pro-marriage between man and woman (it's even part of Hungary's constitution), anti-gay and pro-Catholic. Last year though during the campaign for the municipal elections, the now ex-mayor of one of the most important Hungarian cities (Gyor, happens to be the site of the VAG's largest engine production facility and the only place the Audi TTs are built) got into a scandal. He was an Olympic champion in 1988 (gymnastics) and led an exemplary life or so it seemed. There were of course bribery questions before but the real thing came as photos and a video was release as he was having a cocaine-fueled sex party with prostitutes on a yacht in a neighboring country. A perfect example of all the values that they represent.

Another story just broke this week. I read on Sunday that the leading member of the ruling party's European Parliament squad has abdicated from his position. On Tuesday the news broke that on Friday last week he participated in a gay gangbang party in Brussels that was raided by the Belgian police and he tried to flee by climbing down the gutter. Police also found drugs on him. Another perfect example of the values they thought to represent.

So much for the moral standing of the conservatives.

PS: let's not even get started on the situation how much time Trump spent golfing in general and the fact that he did it on his own properties.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm surprised day by day how deeper and deeper we dive towards autocracy and how complicit the entire GOP and their voter base is. I don't want to start a dispute on the Bill of Rights as I have certain issues with specific points (you can guess which amendment specifically I despise) and my knowledge is anyway very basic (from my daughters' elementary school projects) but it seems that the GOP/Trump voters want a strongman dictating how to live and they're not tolerant at all that doesn't fit into their world view. As such, they're willing to throw away anything that made the US what it was.

For me the whole thing is about tolerance, tolerating that people are different. Different in skin color, gender, beliefs, thoughts or love interest, whatever. It seems though that after the civil rights movement in the '60s/'70s it was finally time for many to release the long-harbored hatred for anything that doesn't fit their world view. Things like the LMGBT community getting more and more attention just made this faster and here we are. On that note, if the LMGBT would be widely accepted, there would be no need for any sort of pro-LMGBT propaganda or Pride parades etc. in my opinion as those surely aggravate the typical GOP/Trump/conservative/right wing voters.

i must mention though 2 stories from the Hungarian politics. Obviously, the leading right wing party is all about pro-marriage between man and woman (it's even part of Hungary's constitution), anti-gay and pro-Catholic. Last year though during the campaign for the municipal elections, the now ex-mayor of one of the most important Hungarian cities (Gyor, happens to be the site of the VAG's largest engine production facility and the only place the Audi TTs are built) got into a scandal. He was an Olympic champion in 1988 (gymnastics) and led an exemplary life or so it seemed. There were of course bribery questions before but the real thing came as photos and a video was release as he was having a cocaine-fueled sex party with prostitutes on a yacht in a neighboring country. A perfect example of all the values that they represent.

Another story just broke this week. I read on Sunday that the leading member of the ruling party's European Parliament squad has abdicated from his position. On Tuesday the news broke that on Friday last week he participated in a gay gangbang party in Brussels that was raided by the Belgian police and he tried to flee by climbing down the gutter. Police also found drugs on him. Another perfect example of the values they thought to represent.

So much for the moral standing of the conservatives.

PS: let's not even get started on the situation how much time Trump spent golfing in general and the fact that he did it on his own properties.

The hypocrisy angle is interesting. There must be a consistent mechanism for driving people to accuse others of what they themselves are doing, thinking, or planning. I wonder if it's a lack of empathy or something, which makes them think that others are exactly like them, causing them to see their own tendencies in others.
 
I will tell you what is amusing (to me at least), going back 3 to 4 years in the America thread and looking at all the ‘Trump’s not that bad’, ‘your all exaggerating this’, ‘but he’s an excellent businessman who will drain the swamp’.

A lot of that thread hasn’t aged well at all.

And those kind of statements always puzzled me back then because my thought has always been, "oh yes he will be that bad". And between Trump and Hillary, Trump was the lesser of two evils. Really??

My extreme dislike of him goes back about 30 years now. I watched David Letterman's late night shows throughout his entire career at both NBC and CBS and The Donald was a frequent guest and as the 90's went on into the 2000's he started saying more and more extreme things and showing where he was heading politically. So I knew long ago that yes indeed if he ever got into a political position he was going to be very bad.

What I don't understand as I've said before, if he was such a good conservative savior and was so popular amongst them in 2016, why wasn't that the case in 2012? What changed between 2012 and 2016 to make radical conservatives say he was their man now? Because it seems 2012 would have been the perfect moment in time for them to run someone like him. They hate Obama, Trump is championing the whole birther movement that Obama is a muslim and not an American citizen. Why was Mittens seen as the better candidate?
 
I think I made a post anticipating that either Trump or Hillary would be impeached within a year of taking office. Of course neither of those things happened. But if you saw this happening, what has happened now, you can either see the future, or you are extremely pessimistic. I would not have expected Trump to openly get away with impeachable offenses due to the Senate, and I would not have expected him to outright attack the constitution on so many fronts, and have the support to continue doing so. I would have thought it absolute political suicide to openly talk about a third term, and defying a democratic election. Nor would I have expected him to be so dead-set against the US and its institutions.

I think we all knew he was going to be a douche, but what has actually happened is beyond what I thought possible in any shape or form within 4 years.
Back in early 2017, I was already arguing that Trump was going to be exactly that, the writing was on the wall that early, and his 2016 election was the first sign of the level at which both the GOP and his base were ready to ignore, and even worse, outright support his excesses were clear.

This alone should have been enough to remove any candidate from becoming President...

hqdefault.jpg


..that he didn't lose support after it happened and the party was happy to excuse it and still support him was the warning sign. An act that should have been political suicide, it was ignored by the party and even worse embraced by the base, and his nature already told us that he knew this. A point highlighted by his 2016 claim that he could shot someone and not lose a single vote.

Add in his refusal to show his tax record and his utter indifference to the Emoluments Clause and it was clear in the early stage of his Presidency that he had no intention of bothering with the actual rule of law or the US Consitution.

The signs that he was a rabid nationalist and happy to use that to keep his base happy and do whatever he wanted? His 2016 campaign was full of it, from 'build the Wall' and 'Mexico will pay, right through to the 'Muslim ban', these were all, to me, quite clear and blindingly obvious signs. Add in the reveration of military might, faux religious following and faux patriotism from the word go and you have (not in the words of Sinclair Lewis) “When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross”.

While Sinclair didn't actually use those words, he was disturbingly accurate in a Trump figure managing to break some of the US's check and balances, in his 1935 novel 'It Can't Happen Here'.

"The main character, Buzz Windrip, appeals to voters with a mix of crass language and nativist ideology. Once elected, he solidifies his power by energizing his base against immigrants, people on welfare, and the liberal press."

I honestly don't think that the founding fathers of the US ever had in mind a character like Trump, nor that politics would become as rabidly partisan as it did, and as such the checks and balances had not had a stress test under such circumstances.

I would argue that Europe has, unfortunately, seen to many times these things occur, both in terms of the rise to power of nationalists and fascists, but also just how quickly things are capable of falling to the dangers and turmoil of such people. That we had a bloody civil war in Europe, complete with genocide as recently as the 90’s, that I grew up in a country rife with a sectarian war may give me a different focus.

Well either that or I'm just a really clinical and pessimistic old bugger, as while some of Trump's outbursts and policies shocked me (they should do to any rational person), unfortunately, I can't say that any of it surprised me. Hell, as I've argued before, I think the only reason they didn't go further down the authoritarian route is down more to incompetence than desire.
 
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I think in many cases, people saw what they wanted to see. Granted, we still don't have the full story. But bits and pieces, as they reveal themselves, are starting to form a picture. There is a reason why Trump had such a bad reputation in his home state, where people knew him best, and why Clinton pounded him in the popular vote (in NY) back in 2016. The guy has been grifting and screwing New Yorkers since the 80s.

I've said it repeatedly in this thread and I'll say it again. Donald Trump NEVER WAS that guy. We're starting to see that he was a Trust fund kid who inherited more than 1/2 a billion dollars through his family business, basically ran through it all in less than 20 years, started a few successful businesses but mostly ran others into the ground, borrowed even more money, and was basically a broken, nearly bankrupt shell back in 2004 when Mark Burnett hired him to star in the Apprentice.

Most people who watched the show saw a guy, who was this insanely rich and powerful business mogul in charge of dozens of companies who did this silly Apprentice show on the side, just for fun. But the truth was the opposite. He had almost nothing left and the Apprentice was a life-line for a guy who had hit bottom. And that show was his main job and primary source of income for several years.

Yes, he made the most of his popularity, earned a lot of money, earned even more endorsements and side deals due to his newly found fame. And he IS a genius in terms of being a con man. But a con man is EXACTLY who people voted for. They thought they were getting a genius businessman. Instead, they got crazy uncle Donnie, who only got where he was because he inherited a LOT of money. And if not, he'd probably be hawking used cars off a lot in Queens if he wasn't born into riches. And what makes it all the more ridiculous is after a disastrous 4 years, where his utter incompetence shined through, a lot of people voted for him...AGAIN. And the real icing is many of these people are STILL fighting for him, some threatening to go to war for him.

I'm trying to read through bits and pieces as I'm working but this pardon bribery scheme investigation is turning into a major story. The DoJ has been trying to keep it under seal. I can’t overstate the enormity of this case. And I think I initially misunderstood. Barr didn’t come out and announce it. It leaked BECAUSE Barr was trying to keep it under seal and the court ordered it unsealed.

Still none of it surprises me. And that's a bit sad. It doesn't surprise me because we all know, or SHOULD know by now that Don the Con will say or do anything, legal or not, if he thinks it will benefit him and screw everybody else. But it also shows that despite people in his inner circle advising him, he has slowly gotten rid of any dissenting voices from that inner circle over the years and surrounded himself with "yes" men. And now that he's lost the election, it's looking increasingly likely that he's going to burn for it.

Right on the money. Somewhat weirdly ... or perhaps appropriately, Mark Burnett - television reality show producer - CREATED the Donald Trump we have today.

It seems to me that the radicalizing factor that is at play now is the explosion of social media over the last 5 or 6 years. The amount of extreme information - or misinformation - circulating around out there is unprecedented & is followed & absorbed by an unprecedented number of people. As an example, is my (Canadian) cousin, whom I would have described as a person with moderately conservative views in the past. Sometime around April she did "research" & started in on posting Covid hoax information on her Facebook page. Since then it has escalated so that she is constantly posting Covid denying & "New World Order", Pro-Trump propaganda on her facebook page. The signature line on her Facebook page now reads "I walk with God Exposing truth".

Bat-**** crazy has become the new normal. :indiff:
 
Back in early 2017, I was already arguing that Trump was going to be exactly that, the writing was on the wall that early, and his 2016 election was the first sign of the level at which both the GOP and his base were ready to ignore, and even worse, outright support his excesses were clear.

This alone should have been enough to remove any candidate from becoming President...

hqdefault.jpg


..that he didn't lose support after it happened and the party was happy to excuse it and still support him was the warning sign. An act that should have been political suicide, it was ignored by the party and even worse embraced by the base, and his nature already told us that he knew this. A point highlighted by his 2016 claim that he could shot someone and not lose a single vote.

Add in his refusal to show his tax record and his utter indifference to the Emoluments Clause and it was clear in the early stage of his Presidency that he had no intention of bothering with the actual rule of law or the US Consitution.

The signs that he was a rabid nationalist and happy to use that to keep his base happy and do whatever he wanted? His 2016 campaign was full of it, from 'build the Wall' and 'Mexico will pay, right through to the 'Muslim ban', these were all, to me, quite clear and blindingly obvious signs. Add in the reveration of military might, faux religious following and faux patriotism from the word go and you have (not in the words of Sinclair Lewis) “When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross”.

While Sinclair didn't actually use those words, he was disturbingly accurate in a Trump figure managing to break some of the US's check and balances, in his 1935 novel 'It Can't Happen Here'.

"The main character, Buzz Windrip, appeals to voters with a mix of crass language and nativist ideology. Once elected, he solidifies his power by energizing his base against immigrants, people on welfare, and the liberal press."

I honestly don't think that the founding fathers of the US ever had in mind a character like Trump, nor that politics would become as rabidly partisan as it did, and as such the checks and balances had not had a stress test under such circumstances.

I would argue that Europe has, unfortunately, seen to many times these things occur, both in terms of the rise to power of nationalists and fascists, but also just how quickly things are capable of falling to the dangers and turmoil of such people. That we had a bloody civil war in Europe, complete with genocide, that I grew up in a country rife with a sectarian war may give me a different focus.

Well either that or I'm just a really clinical and pessimistic old bugger, as while some of Trump's outbursts and policies shocked me (they should do to any rational person), unfortunately, I can't say that any of it surprised me. Hell, as I've argued before, I think the only reason they didn't go further down the authoritarian route is down more to incompetence than desire.

I think this might be a particularly non-American perspective. I'm not sure Europe, or any other part of the world, has an equivalence for the previous culture of distrust of government and zealous devotion to individual liberty. The people who were loudest on that point seemed to be the fastest to abandon it.

I guess, one thing to point out, is that to an extent our previous culture of reverence for checks and balances, paranoia of tyranny, and adherence to basic rights and liberties is what has (thus far) saved us from going further down this road. I agree that Trump's incompetence helped, but in a very real way his incompetence stems from his own autocratic nature. Anyway, this election continues to be one of the greatest challenges the US system has faced (apart from the civil war), and we continue to be holding up.
 
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Bat-**** crazy has become the new normal. :indiff:
Social media might be a tool they use to seek the validation they want, but it's not the cause. I'm not sure we've identified causes yet.

I was having a discussion with somebody about how to improve rural life the other day and one of the things they mentioned was "improve access to broadband" and my immediate thought was, "No, don't give them more internet! They don't need more internet.". This election has proven that people in disenfranchised rural areas already lack the educational skills need to decipher information and make rational judgements about the information they're absorbing. They've already got the internet, even if it sucks, and that's how we ended up where we are now - a lot of people all across the country have plenty of access to information but little guidance on how to use it. Our education system has failed them.

So that seems to be one of many problems, or maybe yet again just a broad symptom of other more specific problems. These people who take nonsense and run with it clearly haven't been taught how to make sense of the information they find. And you shouldn't need to take college classes on propaganda to figure it out. These critical thinking skills should be honed plenty well by the end of high school, but in my experience most of high school is nothing but preparing you to pass a standardized test.
 
This is the US, birthplace of the Bill of Rights. Democracy is (was) sacred here, as are constitutional protections...People who have their entire lives talked about the sanctity of the constitution and the beauty of the American system are ready to tear it down for Trump.

Sometime around April she did "research" & started in on posting Covid hoax information on her Facebook page. Since then it has escalated so that she is constantly posting Covid denying & "New World Order", Pro-Trump propaganda on her facebook page. The signature line on her Facebook page now reads "I walk with God Exposing truth".

This alone should have been enough to remove any candidate from becoming President...that he didn't lose support after it happened and the party was happy to excuse it and still support him was the warning sign. An act that should have been political suicide, it was ignored by the party and even worse embraced by the base, and his nature already told us that he knew this.

So many thoughtful posts and, as usual, I regretfully lack the time to really compose my thoughts and respond in kind. But with the above posts in mind, I'll leave you with this...



This is from Trump's former national security adviser, a former General in the Army, and pointedly, the recipient of a presidential pardon only a few days ago, and here is is tweeting out calls to suspend the constitution and impose martial law. This from a man who swore an oath to uphold and defend it. Is this really what it's come to?
 
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So many thoughtful posts and, as usual, I regretfully lack the time to really compose my thoughts and respond in kind. But with the above posts in mind, I'll leave you with this...



This is from Trump's former national security adviser, a former General in the Army, and pointedly, the recipient of a presidential pardon only a few days ago, and here is is tweeting out calls to suspend the constitution and impose martial law. This from a man who swore an oath to uphold and defend it. Is this really what it's come to?

They didn't follow the constitution because he didn't win? Is that their aim?
 
Sad that you've got at least another month of this nonsense. Even then Trump obviously won't just go away, but at least he won't still be President.
 
"No, don't give them more internet! They don't need more internet.". This election has proven that people in disenfranchised rural areas already lack the educational skills need to decipher information and make rational judgements about the information they're absorbing.
I'm guessing you were being tongue in cheek?
 
I will tell you what is amusing (to me at least), going back 3 to 4 years in the America thread and looking at all the ‘Trump’s not that bad’, ‘your all exaggerating this’, ‘but he’s an excellent businessman who will drain the swamp’.

A lot of that thread hasn’t aged well at all.
You don't have to look nearly that far back, though.

The impeachment thread is chock full of posts that haven't aged particularly well--or have, depending on your bent--and Trump hadn't actually been impeached yet as of a year ago today. Christ. Trump hadn't actually been impeached yet as of a year ago today. The acquittal phase of the process didn't even begin until January.

Anyway, there's one post that still sticks out for me, part of which consists of the following:

In the case of Trump, the whole Ukraine thing began approximately six months ago, while the Democrats have been calling for his impeachment for three years.
Sure, that may very well be the case. But no effort to mount an actual case was made until evidence of an actual crime that warranted impeachment proceedings came to light. Much of the desire stemmed from knowledge of Trump's corrupt dealings, something so innate to him that he couldn't manage to operate above board while under such scrutiny.

Setting aside the fact that the statement is less a defense of the alleged activity and more an attack on those alleging the activity, it's worth noting that this is pretty standard fare with the current state of toxic partisanship. Republicans were so vehemently opposed to Obama's presidential aspirations that they actually harrangued him over his citizenship. Of course some even called for impeachment, such as Rep. Michael Burgess (R-TX) first publicly agreeing with the notion that Obama should be impeached simply to prevent him pushing his agenda, then later stating directly that it needs to happen and that it would tie things up, which suggests that the effort wouldn't be substantive as impeachments go but that it would serve well simply as a political hurdle.


So many thoughtful posts and, as usual, I regretfully lack the time to really compose my thoughts and respond in kind. But with the above posts in mind, I'll leave you with this...



This is from Trump's former national security adviser, a former General in the Army, and pointedly, the recipient of a presidential pardon only a few days ago, and here is is tweeting out calls to suspend the constitution and impose martial law. This from a man who swore an oath to uphold and defend it. Is this really what it's come to?

Corrupt individual appointed by Trump, resigns over corruption, is indicted, convicted and sentenced because he's corrupt, is pardoned by Trump because he's corrupt and doubles down on corruption by affirming appeals to subvert the democratic process.

Is anyone surprised?

By the way, WTP also took out full-page ads in the in the Chicago Tribune calling for "stronger" proof that Obama was born in the United States. They're Birthers. They keep this up and Trump won't be able to resist the urge to grab them, like you get to do when you're famous.


They didn't follow the constitution because he didn't win? Is that their aim?
IlliterateCheeryKingfisher-size_restricted.gif


Republicans in 2016: "Hurhur snowflake say 'not my president.'"

Republicans in 2020: *actually threatening martial law because their bronzer daddy loses re-election*
 
I think this might be a particularly non-American perspective. I'm not sure Europe, or any other part of the world, has an equivalence for the previous culture of distrust of government and zealous devotion to individual liberty. The people who were loudest on that point seemed to be the fastest to abandon it.

I guess, one thing to point out, is that to an extent our previous culture of reverence for checks and balances, paranoia of tyranny, and adherence to basic rights and liberties is what has (thus far) saved us from going further down this road. I agree that Trump's incompetence helped, but in a very real way his incompetence stems from his own autocratic nature. Anyway, this election continues to be one of the greatest challenges the US system has faced (apart from the civil war), and we continue to be holding up.

I think you're wrong about that. You're projecting your own libertarian perspective on the United States population as a whole. European countries actually had multiple revolts to try and overthrow authoritarian governments. The US had a unique situation where, for a long time, more or less unlimited access to land acted as a safety valve for discontent. In recent decades I think the US population as a whole, at least the white population, has been fairly acquiescent in going with the flow. Unreflectively spouting off about "freedom", American Exceptionalism & loving guns is not an indication of a real challenge to authority. I think the emergence of Trumpism & especially the chilling tweet by General Flynn posted above is a pretty good indication of this: the people who back this idea are the same people who claim to believe in "freedom" ... &, of course, guns & religion.
 
I think you're wrong about that. You're projecting your own libertarian perspective on the United States population as a whole.

I'm wrong about what? I'm projecting what exactly? I said several things in that quote. I said that the people who were the loudest about preservation of liberty were the fastest to abandon it. I said that the US system is holding up against Trump's assault on the election outcome.

I said that the US had "a culture of distrust of government and zealous devotion to liberty"... is that it? That culture has been shifted, but if you can look backward a handful of years, the things we're talking about today were unfathomable.

Unreflectively spouting off about "freedom", American Exceptionalism & loving guns is not an indication of a real challenge to authority. I think the emergence of Trumpism & especially the chilling tweet by General Flynn posted above is a pretty good indication of this: the people who back this idea are the same people who claim to believe in "freedom" ... &, of course, guns & religion.

I think this is a bit of an unfair statement. Sure, some people who claim to believe in "freedom" are following Trump off a cliff. But there are a bunch of Americans in this thread who care a great deal about not living under authoritarianism who are not following him. I think Trump is actually providing a sharp reminder to a big portion of the country right now just why exactly we should be concerned about tyranny, why our government is structured the way it is, and why the power to get your political ends met is not worth risking handing the keys to someone like Trump.

Ironically, the left is getting a big dose of limitations on government right now.
 
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Can still be used today. ;)
I know. Republicans are so self-aware that they mock those who don't see Trump as someone who represents them in the same breath that they openly refuse to acknowledge Biden as president-elect in the same breath that they support such despotic efforts as the threat of martial law over election results.
 
I'm guessing you were being tongue in cheek?
Not really, no. They’ve managed to take basic access to Facebook and YouTube and turn it into a cult of irrationality. Clearly, internet access actually made the problem worse, not better, as they had the whole of the internet and they chose conspiracies and extremism. by “they” I don’t mean a few people, I mean millions of people. Access to information is irrelevant if a person doesn’t know what to do with information.

The only good that has come of it is that these people have finally self-identified themselves so the rest of us actually know what we’re dealing with. I still have a feeling these people will vote down local school levies because they’d rather just spout nonsense than actually fund education through evil taxes. They can afford internet and Fox News but they can’t afford school, you’re welcome to make sense of that.
 
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So many thoughtful posts and, as usual, I regretfully lack the time to really compose my thoughts and respond in kind. But with the above posts in mind, I'll leave you with this...



This is from Trump's former national security adviser, a former General in the Army, and pointedly, the recipient of a presidential pardon only a few days ago, and here is is tweeting out calls to suspend the constitution and impose martial law. This from a man who swore an oath to uphold and defend it. Is this really what it's come to?

"Freedom never kneels except for God".

What a perfect display of religious nutjobs in this country once again showing "freedom" means dictating others' lives.
 
I'm wrong about what? I'm projecting what exactly?

This:

I think this might be a particularly non-American perspective. I'm not sure Europe, or any other part of the world, has an equivalence for the previous culture of distrust of government and zealous devotion to individual liberty. The people who were loudest on that point seemed to be the fastest to abandon it.

I think this might be a particularly American perspective on Europe ... & the US. It's true that some American intellectuals were particularly focused on that (as were some of their European counterparts), but a lot of the focus against tyranny in Europe was on overthrowing authoritarian rulers & the social & economic system that kept them in place. Resources in European countries were already owned by the ruling classes - there was little opportunity to "homestead" on virgin land. There was no expansionist "safety valve" available - that's why so many people immigrated to the US. In 1870 Ireland, 95% of the land was owned by men who rented it out to (mostly) impoverished tenants farmers. You can't talk about "devotion to individual liberty" without putting it into an historical context.

I said that the US had "a culture of distrust of government and zealous devotion to liberty"... is that it? That culture has been shifted, but if you can look backward a handful of years, the things we're talking about today were unfathomable.

The "culture of distrust of government and zealous devotion to liberty" was certainly a element in the thinking of the Founding Fathers & perhaps subsequent intellectual discourse, especially among libertarians, but I think, in reality, the way it has manifested itself in the lives of many Americans has been with an obsession with gun ownership & zealous devotion to protecting their own claims to liberty against those of others - blacks, indigenous people, immigrants, homosexuals, different religious sects etc.

I think this is a bit of an unfair statement. Sure, some people who claim to believe in "freedom" are following Trump off a cliff. But there are a bunch of Americans in this thread who care a great deal about not living under authoritarianism who are not following him. I think Trump is actually providing a sharp reminder to a big portion of the country right now just why exactly we should be concerned about tyranny, why our government is structured the way it is, and why the power to get your political ends met is not worth risking handing the keys to someone like Trump.

Of course, there are many Americans who aren't following Trump off the cliff ... but a shockingly high number apparently are. I guess we are all waiting to see where it all ends up - that will tell us if the checks & balances actually work under extreme pressure.
 
So many thoughtful posts and, as usual, I regretfully lack the time to really compose my thoughts and respond in kind. But with the above posts in mind, I'll leave you with this...



This is from Trump's former national security adviser, a former General in the Army, and pointedly, the recipient of a presidential pardon only a few days ago, and here is is tweeting out calls to suspend the constitution and impose martial law. This from a man who swore an oath to uphold and defend it. Is this really what it's come to?

That's terrifying. I don't know what else to say about it. On the one hand I'm like "these people are nuts, they'll disappear into obscurity eventually," and on the other hand I'm like "wow I think we just dodged a bullet the size of a foreign intelligence coup," and on the third hand I'm like "what if this is actually all part of the conspiracy and somehow we're still going to get stuck with a totalitarian government and cause WW3".
 
I think this might be a particularly non-American perspective. I'm not sure Europe, or any other part of the world, has an equivalence for the previous culture of distrust of government and zealous devotion to individual liberty.

Without that zealous devotion the Magna Carta would not have been forced into creation in England, the French Revolution wouldn't have happened, or the Russian Revolution, or the German revolution (to give it credit for its original form), or the religious wars of Europe that centred on the right to follow one's own religion. Arguably the Leiden pilgrims wouldn't have set sail for the Americas aboard Mayflower were it not for a serious of events driven by their determination to be free of government control. The list can be almost endless... but we do dissent over liberty very well. Usually.
 
Corrupt individual appointed by Trump, resigns over corruption, is indicted, convicted and sentenced because he's corrupt, is pardoned by Trump because he's corrupt and doubles down on corruption by affirming appeals to subvert the democratic process.

Is anyone surprised?
These are the people who want to take a hardline stance against repeat offenders. :lol:
 
I will tell you what is amusing (to me at least), going back 3 to 4 years in the America thread and looking at all the ‘Trump’s not that bad’, ‘your all exaggerating this’, ‘but he’s an excellent businessman who will drain the swamp’.

A lot of that thread hasn’t aged well at all.

I remember voicing strong concerns about a Trump presidency and getting mostly scoffed at, labeled an unthinking believer in "Team D." I was just being dramatic, and regurgitating what the lefty media told me, you see.
 
This:

I think this might be a particularly American perspective on Europe ... & the US. It's true that some American intellectuals were particularly focused on that (as were some of their European counterparts), but a lot of the focus against tyranny in Europe was on overthrowing authoritarian rulers & the social & economic system that kept them in place. Resources in European countries were already owned by the ruling classes - there was little opportunity to "homestead" on virgin land. There was no expansionist "safety valve" available - that's why so many people immigrated to the US. In 1870 Ireland, 95% of the land was owned by men who rented it out to (mostly) impoverished tenants farmers. You can't talk about "devotion to individual liberty" without putting it into an historical context.

The "culture of distrust of government and zealous devotion to liberty" was certainly a element in the thinking of the Founding Fathers & perhaps subsequent intellectual discourse, especially among libertarians, but I think, in reality, the way it has manifested itself in the lives of many Americans has been with an obsession with gun ownership & zealous devotion to protecting their own claims to liberty against those of others - blacks, indigenous people, immigrants, homosexuals, different religious sects etc.

Of course, there are many Americans who aren't following Trump off the cliff ... but a shockingly high number apparently are. I guess we are all waiting to see where it all ends up - that will tell us if the checks & balances actually work under extreme pressure.

Without that zealous devotion the Magna Carta would not have been forced into creation in England, the French Revolution wouldn't have happened, or the Russian Revolution, or the German revolution (to give it credit for its original form), or the religious wars of Europe that centred on the right to follow one's own religion. Arguably the Leiden pilgrims wouldn't have set sail for the Americas aboard Mayflower were it not for a serious of events driven by their determination to be free of government control. The list can be almost endless... but we do dissent over liberty very well. Usually.

You've both missed my point in the same way. It is about freedom specifically from government. Not a desire to form a government which suits your needs, or which makes you more prosperous, but a government which necessarily leaves you alone - because it is incapable of becoming tyrannical. That was the ideal. It faces a new test today.
 
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You've both missed my point in the same way. It is about freedom specifically from government. Not a desire to form a government which suits your needs, or which makes you more prosperous, but a government which necessarily leaves you alone - because it is incapable of becoming tyrannical. That was the ideal. It faces a new test today.

OK. But the point I am trying to make (& have been trying to for the past 15 odd years) is that, historically, government has been a tool of the ruling class to control the under classes. It wasn't really that different in the US. The difference was that the availability of land & resources made it more viable for the under classes to prosper in the long run. That's an entirely different situation from what existed in Europe in the 19th century. So, European workers understandably focused more attention on gaining political power in order to effect a redistribution of wealth & opportunity, than on the freedom to pursue their life, liberty & happiness. Different circumstances.

I'm not entirely sure what is going on in the US today ... but it would seem that deeply rooted distrust & resentments - still, somewhat weirdly focused on race - have led a big chunk of white Americans to regard Donald Trump - a transparently self-serving narcissist & conman - as their saviour from socialist big government, free-loading blacks, Mexicans, muslims, immigrants in general, job-stealing China, job stealing Canada & Europe, George Soros, the Clintons, Hollywood elites, scientists, big tech entrepreneurs, experts in general, gun-grabbers, atheists, LGBTQ activists, abortionists & the New World Order. They don't seem to have much interest in the idea of democracy - they prefer the idea of a "republic" that offers them special perks & privileges & they respect freedom only when it's the freedom to do & say what what they want.
 
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More news in the popular vote: The gap made a large increase today as New York reported a ton of votes, increasing Biden's lead to 6.85 million votes. That's about 600,000 more than the last time I checked a couple days ago. This drops Trump's percentage down to 46.9%. New York has still only reported 92%.
 
Here's an interesting article where the author actually made a Parler account to investigate what's going on there. Later, it discusses the idea of echo chambers, and how social media users tend to congregate and ultimately limit their world views in doing so.

I bet the FBI loves Parler, because it makes it really easy for them to identify people of interest.
 
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