The GTP Unofficial 2020 US Elections Thread

GTPlanet Exit Poll - Which Presidential Ticket Did You Vote For?

  • Trump/Pence

    Votes: 16 27.1%
  • Biden/Harris

    Votes: 20 33.9%
  • Jorgensen/Cohen

    Votes: 7 11.9%
  • Hawkins/Walker

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • La Riva/Freeman

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • De La Fuente/Richardson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Blankenship/Mohr

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Carroll/Patel

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Simmons/Roze

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Charles/Wallace

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 15 25.4%

  • Total voters
    59
  • Poll closed .
No reconciliation without reciprocation. It's a two-way street and if the traffic only goes in one direction then Democrats can only turn the other cheek for so long.

I would say it goes deeper than that. A functioning society requires a degree of shared values. It requires, at the least, some acceptance of commonly agreed upon facts. Lacking that, you've got a problem. How can you have reconciliation with 30 - 40% of the population that has taken to believing completely false facts due to the proliferation of fake information on social media & are led on by a leader who actively & deliberately promotes that fake information?
 
GOP chairwoman Ronna McDaniel runs into a few problems when trying to convince the faithful to vote in the Georgia runoff.



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GOP chairwoman Ronna McDaniel runs into a few problems when trying to connect the faithful to vote in the Georgia runoff.

And this is the problem that I think the Republican party as a whole runs into at the moment. It's pretty obvious to a lot of people that the system as a whole is not exactly working as intended in terms of representative democracy, and it also seems pretty clear that if the system were amended to be more non-partisan as seen in other countries that would put Republicans at a disadvantage compared to where they find themselves right now.

It seems inevitable that at some point electoral reform will get pushed through, and when that happens the GOP wants their base primed to push back as hard against that as possible. To the point of painting the entire electoral system as tainted if necessary. But that doesn't happen overnight, so they're laying the groundwork now as there was a real danger that Democrats would end up with enough power out of 2020 to simply force the matter. The issue being is that didn't end up happening and they're not ready to pull the trigger on an actual uprising when it doesn't seem like it would be to their advantage. Undermining faith in the electoral system seems to be actually damaging their current prospects.

Yes, they lost the Presidency but that was in large part due to Trump shooting himself multiple times in both feet and then bragging on Twitter about what a good foot shooter he is. Otherwise it seems like they came out of the 2020 election about as well as could be hoped, possibly better than they actually expected. And so this whole idea that the election was somehow rigged is messing up their ability to consolidate what is really a pretty solid political position.
 
And this is the problem that I think the Republican party as a whole runs into at the moment. It's pretty obvious to a lot of people that the system as a whole is not exactly working as intended in terms of representative democracy, and it also seems pretty clear that if the system were amended to be more non-partisan as seen in other countries that would put Republicans at a disadvantage compared to where they find themselves right now.

It seems inevitable that at some point electoral reform will get pushed through, and when that happens the GOP wants their base primed to push back as hard against that as possible. To the point of painting the entire electoral system as tainted if necessary. But that doesn't happen overnight, so they're laying the groundwork now as there was a real danger that Democrats would end up with enough power out of 2020 to simply force the matter. The issue being is that didn't end up happening and they're not ready to pull the trigger on an actual uprising when it doesn't seem like it would be to their advantage. Undermining faith in the electoral system seems to be actually damaging their current prospects.

Yes, they lost the Presidency but that was in large part due to Trump shooting himself multiple times in both feet and then bragging on Twitter about what a good foot shooter he is. Otherwise it seems like they came out of the 2020 election about as well as could be hoped, possibly better than they actually expected. And so this whole idea that the election was somehow rigged is messing up their ability to consolidate what is really a pretty solid political position.
Like you suggest, one of their long term strategies worked almost too well and apparently they forgot they rode it so hard in the past. Gerrymandering. Notice how the Dems gained huge ground from a democratic voting standpoint by gaining the presidency and nearly evening the senate, but the gerrymandered house districts had a wild swing toward red. I assume the Republican voters simply didn't turn out in 2018 because clearly when they have historically high turnout their gerrymandering heavily favors them which was the point of it. This could be a problem in the future because if Republicans can maintain that voter turnout momentum for 2022 then Dems may be in house trouble once more.
 
Having the power to influence thought should not give the newspapers carte blanche to lie:

star-%20trumpjpg_zpshqzrd7rz.jpg

They go on to bolster this with:

"But madness of that sort was far from uncommon in Europe’s royal families, not least because of the inbreeding favoured by their convention that members of a royal family could not marry beneath their station. As H.C. Erik Midelfort explains in his entertaining 1996 monograph Mad Princes of Renaissance Germany, in 16th-century Germany nearly 30 dukes, landgraves and counts were regarded by their courts and ministers as mad enough to require medical attention or removal from office. But what exactly was meant by “mad”? Midelfort explains that advisers and family members spoke of “weakness, folly, debility, and the condition of not being right,” or sometimes “furor, or melancholy, or sickness” when they encountered princes who seemed to be mentally unsuited to rule. The notion of clinical insanity or certifiable madness is one that only became current in the 19th century."
My advice to the Toronto Star is that they should sell the business and buy some hot dog vending carts - do a better service to the hoi polloi in downtown Toronto. At least serve the workers who are battling the opioid crises there. Don't waste my time if I am to take you literally.

Oh, dear, this post didn't age well...

https://web.archive.org/web/2020112...f45226-2f47-11eb-96c2-aac3f162215d_story.html

WaPo
Sequestered in the White House and brooding out of public view after his election defeat, rageful and at times delirious in a torrent of private conversations, Trump was, in the telling of one close adviser, like “Mad King George, muttering, ‘I won. I won. I won.’ ”
 
The Atlantic had a good article on why Trump probably can't grant himself a pardon.

The One Word That Bars Trump From Pardoning Himself

If you're out of free articles, here it is:

Nice analysis, but somewhat shaky. It says "except in cases of impeachment". Which suggests that the concept of self-pardoning was known to them at the time, and they explicitly carved out impeachment. This argues that they did not intend the president to be able to pardon himself for impeachable matters. But that opens the door for pardoning himself for other non-impeachable matters.
 
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It occurred to me today that Trump's extensive litigation of the election (and it's abject failure) is coming dangerously close to eliminating Trump's ability to plausibly claim he lost an unfair election. That is to say, the more he works hard to prove fraud, the more he actually proves that he lost fair and square. As much as Trump personally prides himself in being a "fighter" I think his brand is really built on him being a "winner" (to be clear, I think both of these are totally fictional, fabricated Donald Trump the TV character traits - Trump has always positioned himself as close to can't-lose positions as humanly possible....and he still has lost a lot) . This election fight I think is ultimately going to hurt his brand. Will Trump's base still love Trump if he isn't a winner? I think less so.

In other news, Republicans not named Donald Trump (+ moderate to right ballot measure choices) did surprisingly well in California. To me this speaks to a very clear rejection across the board of Trumpism in the Golden State. While that outcome might seem obvious, it's clear to me that a lot of people on the right have had enough of the guy. It also tells me that Biden is probably a good figurehead going forward for the Democratic party. Biden vastly outperformed the democratic party which has arguably overindulged itself in self-righteous wokeness, and Trump vastly underperformed the Republican party. Both of these things (plus all the drug legalization!), to me, point to a strong if not-yet conscious urge of most of America to bring the temperature down - a desire for moderation. I hope I'm right. It's hard to tell with the most extreme views having the biggest megaphones. Thanks, twitter/fb algorithms....
 
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This election fight I think is ultimately going to hurt his brand. Will Trump's base still love Trump if he isn't a winner? I think less so.

That's what a logical person would think, however a large part of his base is past that. What's next? Possibly calls for the whole system being rigged against Trump
 
That's what a logical person would think, however a large part of his base is past that. What's next? Possibly calls for the whole system being rigged against Trump

I guess my point is that these accusations are increasingly ridiculous and the Trump train is starting to lose momentum. Or I am optimistic it is.
 
It occurred to me today that Trump's extensive litigation of the election (and it's abject failure) is coming dangerously close to eliminating Trump's ability to plausibly claim he lost an unfair election. That is to say, the more he works hard to prove fraud, the more he actually proves that he lost fair and square. As much as Trump personally prides himself in being a "fighter" I think his brand is really built on him being a "winner" (to be clear, I think both of these are totally fictional, fabricated Donald Trump the TV character traits - Trump has always positioned himself as close to can't-lose positions as humanly possible....and he still has lost a lot) . This election fight I think is ultimately going to hurt his brand. Will Trump's base still love Trump if he isn't a winner? I think less so.

That's a very interesting thought. Maybe he would have been better off playing the martyr and selling the story "we know that it was rigged but they control all the systems of justice so we can't fight it in the courts". I could see a lot of people getting on board with that, more than are probably going to be on board with him after this protracted toys-out-of-pram-throwing act he's pulling. It makes him look weak that he as the President of the United States with access to all the information and investigative power that entails can't put together a basic legal argument for all the "corruption" that he claims has occurred. Under his watch.
 
non-impeachable matters.
Or simply unimpeached matters, aka everything else he probably did. He could just pardon himself for all crimes except those for which he's been impeached.

I hope I'm right.
I'm pretty sure you are, it's just that the small groups of extremists out there are so tremendously loud that they seem scarier than they are. And my "small groups" I mean there are literally millions of them but whatever. Speaking of which, I saw a Trumpchode driving a Tahoe (blacked out, loud pipes, etc) with flags a-waving driving through the suburbs the other day, looking like an absolute tool, advertising to everyone around him that he's disrespectful, temperamental, untrustworthy, arguably unemployable, definitely armed, and wholly delusional. I don't doubt that the FBI know's the driver's name, and it wouldn't surprise me to hear on the news that they made a terrible decision in a Walmart parking lot.
 
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That's a very interesting thought. Maybe he would have been better off playing the martyr and selling the story "we know that it was rigged but they control all the systems of justice so we can't fight it in the courts". I could see a lot of people getting on board with that, more than are probably going to be on board with him after this protracted toys-out-of-pram-throwing act he's pulling. It makes him look weak that he as the President of the United States with access to all the information and investigative power that entails can't put together a basic legal argument for all the "corruption" that he claims has occurred. Under his watch.

Exactly. The longer this is dragged on and the more the losses pile up the more untenable this approach is. He would have been far better served by milking the grievance angle...but that window has effectively closed now. There is something spell-breaking about this loss, especially how emphatic it was. I don't think one can overstate how critical the concept of "winning" is to Trumpism, it's kind of the whole point. If the world is zero-sum (per Trumpism, it is) then losing is the most unforgivable sin - almost literally anything else is fair game in Trumpism, except losing. This is why I think...why I hope Trump is going to fade away.

edit, further open ended thoughts: I think the weird split (For Biden, against Dems) has all culminated from 2020 events. Civil Unrest and Covid are probably the two main drivers of voting sentiment. Both of those things hurt Donald Trump badly (because he is a terrible leader). The Civil Unrest, however, I think also hurt the Democratic party (less so Biden) because the perception is that they are far too accommodating of the riots and looting. Congressional Republicans have been somewhat muted regarding the unrest and have done the bare minimum (which is notably more than Trump) with regard to Covid response - basically they allowed the stimulus to happen. The congressional Republicans did there best to stay out of the way, not hook themselves too tightly to the Trump train, and allowed the Democrats to trip over their wokes. Mitch at his best, really. Doesn't he make Chuck Schumer look like a total schmuck? Don't get me wrong, I hate Mitch, but he is truly the grand master of the US congress.
 
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I think wondering whether Trump pardoning himself for everything being Constitutional or not is somewhat irrelevant, because even if it's blatantly and hilariously not you have to convince 5 out of 8 Supreme Court justices that it is (maybe they could put an anti-abortion rider on it) and then you have to make Trump actually care what the court says on top of that.
 
I'm pretty sure you are, it's just that the small groups of extremists out there are so tremendously loud that they seem scarier than they are. And my "small groups" I mean there are literally millions of them but whatever.

Yeah, but that's really the problem, isn't it? The "extremists" are actually tens of millions of Americans who continue to side with Trump no matter how extreme his position.

Exactly. The longer this is dragged on and the more the losses pile up the more untenable this approach is. He would have been far better served by milking the grievance angle...but that window has effectively closed now. There is something spell-breaking about this loss, especially how emphatic it was. I don't think one can overstate how critical the concept of "winning" is to Trumpism, it's kind of the whole point. If the world is zero-sum (per Trumpism, it is) then losing is the most unforgivable sin - almost literally anything else is fair game in Trumpism, except losing. This is why I think...why I hope Trump is going to fade away.

True ... but it seems to me that the whole purpose of questioning the validity of the election is to claim he isn't actually a "loser". Up to this point he seems to have successfully convinced his base that the election was rigged & therefore he isn't a loser. I don't really see this fading away. I think the only thing that might swing things in that direction is if the Democrats won both Georgia seats & control of the Senate, which might finally persuade Republicans in the House & Senate to distance themselves from Trump.
 
Yeah, but that's really the problem, isn't it? The "extremists" are actually tens of millions of Americans who continue to side with Trump no matter how extreme his position.



True ... but it seems to me that the whole purpose of questioning the validity of the election is to claim he isn't actually a "loser". Up to this point he seems to have successfully convinced his base that the election was rigged & therefore he isn't a loser. I don't really see this fading away. I think the only thing that might swing things in that direction is if the Democrats won both Georgia seats & control of the Senate, which might finally persuade Republicans in the House & Senate to distance themselves from Trump.

Eh, he can say whatever he wants. When he leaves that White House, he'll be leaving as a loser.
 
Or simply unimpeached matters, aka everything else he probably did. He could just pardon himself for all crimes except those for which he's been impeached.

I think this is a slightly unfair interpretation. It says in cases of impeachment - meaning that anything which he's being impeached for, and I'd argue could be impeached for, are exempted.

It occurs to me that the house could bring articles of impeachment on everything and anything that he might want to pardon himself for, and then subsequently he cannot constitutionally pardon himself for it.
 
Eh, he can say whatever he wants. When he leaves that White House, he'll be leaving as a loser.

I think his whole "fraud" strategy (if you can call it that) is to deflect attention away from being a "loser". And he received more votes than any Presidential candidate in US history (except for Biden) ... & by a significant amount. He may have lost the Presidency, but he's still the "winner" of the GOP - clearly Republicans in general still support Trump.

It's going it very hard for Biden to govern effectively, as there's going to be a barrage of criticism from Trump, which is likely to be even more divorced from reality than when he was President. I think losing control of the Senate would make a serious dent in Trump's status with Republican politicians, as it would confirm him as a "triple loser". I don't know how likely it is for Democrats to pick up the two Senate seats in Georgia, however, as I suspect Republican voters will be more motivated than Democrat voters. :indiff:
 
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I think his whole "fraud" strategy (if you can call it that) is to deflect attention away from being a "loser".
And it's worth noting that in the eyes of Trump, he's never genuinely "lost" at anything significant in his life. Losing reelection would be his first, and I think that Trump's ego and narcissistic image of being incapable of losing would make it so that he is incapable of coping from this normally.

I think his whole "fraud" strategy (if you can call it that) is to deflect attention away from being a "loser". And he received more votes than any Presidential candidate in US history (except for Biden) ... & by a significant amount. He may have lost the Presidency, but he's still the "winner" of the GOP - clearly Republicans in general still support Trump.

It's going it very hard for Biden to govern effectively, as there's going to be a barrage of criticism from Trump, which is likely to be even more divorced from reality than when he was President.
Yup. The irony is, Trump and his following will most likely be acting as if whatever neoliberal centrist policies the Biden administration is pushing for is like the second coming of the Bolshevik revolution, or "turning America into Venezuela".
 
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Exactly. The longer this is dragged on and the more the losses pile up the more untenable this approach is. He would have been far better served by milking the grievance angle...but that window has effectively closed now. There is something spell-breaking about this loss, especially how emphatic it was. I don't think one can overstate how critical the concept of "winning" is to Trumpism, it's kind of the whole point. If the world is zero-sum (per Trumpism, it is) then losing is the most unforgivable sin - almost literally anything else is fair game in Trumpism, except losing. This is why I think...why I hope Trump is going to fade away.

There does seem to be an unintended effect playing out (well, at least one anyway), which is that Trump loses on an almost daily basis in the news. Just now Arizona certified its results - thereby handing him yet another loss. Each recount is a loss, each court battle is a loss. He's losing constantly these days. He managed to turn losing the election once into losing it 100 times over.
 
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There does seem to be an unintended effect playing out (well, at least one anyway), which is that Trump loses on an almost daily basis in the news. Just now Arizona certified its results - thereby handing him yet another loss. Each recount is a loss, each court battle is a loss. He's losing constantly these days. He managed to turn losing the election once into losing it 100 times over.

Losing Twitter followers too.
 
Yeah, but that's really the problem, isn't it? The "extremists" are actually tens of millions of Americans who continue to side with Trump no matter how extreme his position.

Right, there are extremists, which you can see and hear clearly, but there are also silent supporters who rolled their Trump flags down quietly after the election or didn't even have one.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-while-trumps-falls-post-election/6471704002/
Post-election Gallup poll: Biden favorability rises to 55% while Trump's dips to 42%

WASHINGTON – According to a new poll from Gallup, President-elect Joe Biden’s favorability rating is up following the conclusion of the election while President Donald Trump’s has dipped.

Biden’s approval rating, according to this survey, is at 55%, which is the highest since he entered the 2020 race. He polled slightly higher in February of 2019, two months before he declared his candidacy.

Meanwhile, Trump's approval rating is at 42%, down three points from before the election, when it reached its highest at 49% in both February and the spring.

Live politics updates: Arizona, Wisconsin certify Biden win; GOP Senate majority to shrink by one Wednesday

According to Gallup, the increase in Biden's favorability was driven by Republicans and independents. With Republicans, it expanded from 6% to 12%, while with independents, it increased from 48% to 55%. The positive rating from Democrats remained steady.

The dip in Trump's favorability rating stemmed largely from Republicans, where he lost six points, dropping to 89% within the group.

These findings are historically consistent, as Biden's current favorability fits the trend of the person winning the election having a high approval rating immediately afterwards.

Trump’s approval rating after the 2016 election, where surveys found him to be the most unpopular presidential candidate in Gallup's polling history, is the only exception, according to Gallup.
 
Right, there are extremists, which you can see and hear clearly, but there are also silent supporters who rolled their Trump flags down quietly after the election or didn't even have one.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-while-trumps-falls-post-election/6471704002/

You think? I hope you're right, but 89% of Republicans continuing to "approve" of Trump after the post-election shenanigans doesn't sound like a small number & if only 6% silent supporters "rolled their flags down quietly" - that's not particularly re-assuring. :indiff:
 
I think his whole "fraud" strategy (if you can call it that) is to deflect attention away from being a "loser". And he received more votes than any Presidential candidate in US history (except for Biden) ... & by a significant amount. He may have lost the Presidency, but he's still the "winner" of the GOP - clearly Republicans in general still support Trump.

Like Formula One statistics, election results through pure numbers don't really tell the whole story. Trump may have received more votes than anyone else (Biden aside) but as a percentage of all the votes cast, his projected 47.1% is less than Hilary's losing 48.2%, less than Romney's 47.2%, Kerry's 48.3% and Gore's 48.4%. Only John McCain's 45% was bettered by Trump in the last 20 years.

If you have more races in a season or a higher overall population, those figures are always going to get skewed.
 
You think? I hope you're right, but 89% of Republicans continuing to "approve" of Trump after the post-election shenanigans doesn't sound like a small number & if only 6% silent supporters "rolled their flags down quietly" - that's not particularly re-assuring. :indiff:

Oh, the link wasn't meant to connect to the post, just the thread overall.

They're still supporters, but they're not the ones you see on TV. You can't make much of a news story of somebody sitting at a table.
 
Like Formula One statistics, election results through pure numbers don't really tell the whole story. Trump may have received more votes than anyone else (Biden aside) but as a percentage of all the votes cast, his projected 47.1% is less than Hilary's losing 48.2%, less than Romney's 47.2%, Kerry's 48.3% and Gore's 48.4%. Only John McCain's 45% was bettered by Trump in the last 20 years.

If you have more races in a season or a higher overall population, those figures are always going to get skewed.

That supposes that Democratic voters - or anti-Trump - voters will remain as committed as Trump voters. I think that's unlikely. I think it's possible RINO's & Never Trumpers will drift back to the GOP with Trump out of office, while independents & leftists may become disillusioned with a Biden administration over time. And it ignores the reality that due to gerrymandering, & the make-up of the Electoral College & the Senate, Republicans have a built-in advantage when it come to voting statistics. It's not that hard to see how Republicans could retain control of the Senate in January & win back the House in 2022, while putting in place the conditions for a Trump run in 2024.
 
I've mentioned it before but i think if the GOP don't quickly move to distance themselves from Trump come January they're going to start coming across as the party of fringe lunatic radical CS believers. Let Trump become an independent for 2024 - a cross between a reverse Ross Perot and Pennywize the clown.

If Biden can stay alive healthy and avoid schizophrenic Twitter rants against the mainstream media, he'll be the president in charge when the pandemic and the troubles its brought are a distant memory and the global economy is riding a wave of post-Covid boom. The orange man-child won't seem such a tempting choice by then. Hopefully.
 
I've mentioned it before but i think if the GOP don't quickly move to distance themselves from Trump come January they're going to start coming across as the party of fringe lunatic radical CS believers. Let Trump become an independent for 2024 - a cross between a reverse Ross Perot and Pennywize the clown.

If Biden can stay alive healthy and avoid schizophrenic Twitter rants against the mainstream media, he'll be the president in charge when the pandemic and the troubles its brought are a distant memory and the global economy is riding a wave of post-Covid boom. The orange man-child won't seem such a tempting choice by then. Hopefully.

Well, logic & historical precedent would suggest those things should happen ... however, logic & historical precedent seem to have been completely thrown out the window over the last few years, so I'm not holding my breath. :indiff:
 
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