The GTP Unofficial 2020 US Elections Thread

[Famine]

Most sighted how far left the Democrat party had become

Cited. Also:

The only legitimately left candidates were Bernie Sanders, Tulsi Gabbard, and Mike Gravel. Everyone else is merely left of Trump/Pence - Biden by only a point compared to Trump.

The two scales represent freedom from government, with the left-right scale being economic freedom (more right = more free) and the top-bottom scale being social freedom (more down = more free). That translates as fewer government regulations and protections the more right and the more down you go, and more government regulations and protection the more up and left you go.

Trump's position is just about as right as you can get (Pence is further), which translates to a free market economy with almost no government regulations on fiscal matters, and a bare minimum of taxation for necessary government functions. However he's also just about as far upwards as you can get, which translates to almost total government regulation of behaviour - and getting on for a police state; the "necessary government functions" would appear to be a bloated military and militarised police force to rigidly apply a rule of law that denies freedoms. I know that's hard to believe of a man who'd tear gas civilians so he can have a photo op at a church, or use unidentified federal officers to abduct protestors off the street, or sign executive orders like a bit-part sci-fi actor signs photos of himself at a convention, or has apparently no familiarity with the Constitution whatsoever, but that's the case.

Biden is only slightly left of Trump, which means that when it comes to fiscal matters he's almost as free market as Trump/Pence or Jorgensen, but thinks there should be slightly higher taxation for slightly larger government that's involved in slightly more regulation and protection. However he's also considerably further down the chart than Trump, which would translate to someone more willing to allow for personal freedoms - though in honesty, I regard anyone in the blue square as being someone who wants restrictions on behaviour, it's just that the further up they are the more they believe it should be other people's behaviour rather than their own.

It's fun to note where John Kasich is, given his recent support for Biden over Trump, and also where one-time Republican 2020 hopeful Bill Weld is. In addition there's VP-nominee Kamala Harris who is twice as far left compared to Joe Biden as Biden is compared to Trump... and yet she's ideologically closer to both Trump and Pence on both scales than she is to Bernie Sanders...


What might be a fun discussion is where the United States Constitution (and Bill of Rights) sits on the compass. I'm not sure how you'd place it fiscally as little of it deals with money (and arguably both 8A and 16A are to the left by nature; one establishes a federal tax and one a protection from "excessive" fines and bails) which may mean it's all the way over to the right as it has no remit for fiscal regulation (edit: or perhaps all the way over to the left, as it has no remit for protection from fiscal regulation?). Most of it codifies freedom from government, pushing it well down into the bottom half of the compass - though it has occasionally got that message wrong (18A).

If you could establish where the Constitution sits, you'd know who the best person to elect in order to protect it is: the person who is closest to it ideologically. Pretty sure that's neither Trump nor Biden...

 

[Liquid]

Placing the US constitution on the compass would be difficult due to the perennial implicit meaning vs textual literalness argument regarding its interpretation and use of powers.

For example, the word "slavery" is never used in the original, unamended document but slavery as an institution was clearly catered for with the "three-fifths" compromise. Perhaps it's a moot point with the introduction of the thirteenth amendement that repealled slavery but I think you'll always have people arguing and trying to drag the constitution's place on the compass being closer to their personal beliefs rather than people trying to develop their personal beliefs closer to the constitution's place on the compass.

 

[McLaren]

So sad how with modern technology it’s so easy to portray any event in the way that matches the presenters position...

And yet you just complimented such a channel.

 

[huskeR32]

I would loooooove to talk policy here, but it is either orange man bad nazi, or communist brain dead Biden.

Moaning about oversimplified, polarized political discourse from person who labels any and every thing they don't agree with "leftist." Irony, thy name is Chrunch.

 

[McLaren]

Moaning about oversimplified, polarized political discourse from person who labels any and every thing they don't agree with "leftist." Irony, thy name is Chrunch.

I thought the term he liked to use was abnormal.

 

[NotThePrez]

^And also claims that anybody who is critical of Trump/The GOP isn't a "normal person."

Edit: Tree'd

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Moaning about oversimplified, polarized political discourse from person who labels any and every thing they don't agree with "leftist." Irony, thy name is Chrunch.

He would've gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids.

 

[huskeR32]

I thought the term he liked to use was abnormal.

Ah, nope. He's never actually labeled anybody that. He just calls himself and those he agrees with "normal," and leaves it to everyone else to recognize the other side of the coin on their own. I suspect he enjoys the deniability that gives him - he hasn't actually called anybody a name. It's all very brave of him.

All he'll say out loud is "leftist." Even when describing a viewpoint held by folks like Danoff and Joey D, which...

 

[Biggles]

Cited. Also:
View attachment 952790
The only legitimately left candidates were Bernie Sanders, Tulsi Gabbard, and Mike Gravel. Everyone else is merely left of Trump/Pence - Biden by only a point compared to Trump.

The two scales represent freedom from government, with the left-right scale being economic freedom (more right = more free) and the top-bottom scale being social freedom (more down = more free). That translates as fewer government regulations and protections the more right and the more down you go, and more government regulations and protection the more up and left you go.

Trump's position is just about as right as you can get (Pence is further), which translates to a free market economy with almost no government regulations on fiscal matters, and a bare minimum of taxation for necessary government functions. However he's also just about as far upwards as you can get, which translates to almost total government regulation of behaviour - and getting on for a police state; the "necessary government functions" would appear to be a bloated military and militarised police force to rigidly apply a rule of law that denies freedoms. I know that's hard to believe of a man who'd tear gas civilians so he can have a photo op at a church, or use unidentified federal officers to abduct protestors off the street, or sign executive orders like a bit-part sci-fi actor signs photos of himself at a convention, or has apparently no familiarity with the Constitution whatsoever, but that's the case.

Biden is only slightly left of Trump, which means that when it comes to fiscal matters he's almost as free market as Trump/Pence or Jorgensen, but thinks there should be slightly higher taxation for slightly larger government that's involved in slightly more regulation and protection. However he's also considerably further down the chart than Trump, which would translate to someone more willing to allow for personal freedoms - though in honesty, I regard anyone in the blue square as being someone who wants restrictions on behaviour, it's just that the further up they are the more they believe it should be other people's behaviour rather than their own.

It's fun to note where John Kasich is, given his recent support for Biden over Trump, and also where one-time Republican 2020 hopeful Bill Weld is. In addition there's VP-nominee Kamala Harris who is twice as far left compared to Joe Biden as Biden is compared to Trump... and yet she's ideologically closer to both Trump and Pence on both scales than she is to Bernie Sanders...


What might be a fun discussion is where the United States Constitution (and Bill of Rights) sits on the compass. I'm not sure how you'd place it fiscally as little of it deals with money (and arguably both 8A and 16A are to the left by nature; one establishes a federal tax and one a protection from "excessive" fines and bails) which may mean it's all the way over to the right as it has no remit for fiscal regulation (edit: or perhaps all the way over to the left, as it has no remit for protection from fiscal regulation?). Most of it codifies freedom from government, pushing it well down into the bottom half of the compass - though it has occasionally got that message wrong (18A).

If you could establish where the Constitution sits, you'd know who the best person to elect in order to protect it is: the person who is closest to it ideologically. Pretty sure that's neither Trump nor Biden...

Can you explain to me the parameters that define where these various candidates sit on the chart. The "test" that we GTPlaneters have taken is based on answers to specific questions - most of them not overtly "political" at all. I'm assuming that the candidates did not take the test, so what is their placement based on? More importantly ... who, or what, defines where the centre axes lie?

 

[Famine]

Can you explain to me the parameters that define where these various candidates sit on the chart. The "test" that we GTPlaneters have taken is based on answers to specific questions - most of them not overtly "political" at all. I'm assuming that the candidates did not take the test, so what is their placement based on?

That would be either on stated aims/policies or, for incumbents, actions. You can probably guess what Bernie Sanders would respond for "The rich are too highly taxed". You could probably lay out all the 2020 candidates' answers to "Abortion, when the woman’s life is not threatened, should always be illegal." too. Other responses may be harder to fathom, but it's simply a matter of political analysis of their policies.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/faq#faq9

The questions that don't look political are more a matter of correlation. There's some examples below.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/faq#faq11

More importantly ... who, or what, defines where the centre axes lie?

That's a matter of the median, really. The important parts are the upper and lower bounds, which represent zero government control/legislation (bottom, right) and total government control/legislation (top, left) respectively. The centrelines for each is simply a convenience where people's views switch from being more in favour of government control/legislation to less, and vice versa, rather than a defined "this is what centrists think" position.

In principle you could have two people who are totally ideologically opposed landing at the same point around the centre, because one supports legislation for some things and freedom for others while the other supports freedom for the things the first person wants legislated and legislation for the things the first person is opposed to legislation for. As a broad stroke, someone who is anti-choice but supports legalisation of marijuana would likely be pretty close to someone who is pro-choice but anti-drugs if there were only two questions.

The fact that the centre region remains this median area between total and zero government control without reference to current positions is also helpful in the long term. It allows you to see where governments, parties, and candidates are plotted with relation to each other over time. If you keep redefining "centre" as a position between a party you consider to be the left and a party you consider to be the right, you miss the fact that almost all parties and the general political outlook are trending towards liberal economic policies but authoritarian social policies over the last few decades.

 

[UKMikey]

Twitter has suspended a number of accounts for spamming an identical fake message about converting to Republican from "Marxist" Democrat.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/technology-53925051

 

[Tornado]

I CAN'T BELIEVE TWITTER IS CENSORING REPUBLICANS!

 

[UKMikey]

Yeah, deplatforming cancel culture! I mean, they could all be genuine, right?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Cancel culture

 

[UKMikey]

Cancel culture

Just another never-Trump* RINO.

*except when she was working for him

 

[Chrunch Houston]

I spilled a glass of wine into my keyboard

I am talking to Google to write this

I don't want you to think I am hiding

as for that chart do you really think Andrew Yang is that right wing?

that chart is *******

 

[TenEightyOne]

I spilled a glass of wine into my keyboard

I am talking to Google to write this

I don't want you to think I am hiding

as for that chart do you really think Andrew Yang is that right wing?

that chart is b*******

That's one of the most beautiful pieces of internet poetry I've ever read.

 

[UKMikey]

That's one of the most beautiful pieces of internet poetry I've ever read.

The Rubáiyát Of Chrunch Houston.

The irony is that if the whole chart was shifted to the left as he seems to wish then his own position would be shifted over from "normal" by a similar amount.

It's funny that @Famine's post was so long it made him spill his drink though.

 

[McLaren]

as for that chart do you really think Andrew Yang is that right wing?

that chart is ********

Have you stopped to think that maybe the US' political spectrum isn't the same as the world's? I did, b/c I used to have that same thought & members here pointed out I was wrong. It's why many, esp. Euro, members here that look like Leftists in the US, are actually more around the center in general by the world's views. A couple have shared by their own country's balance, they're actually to the Right.

I honestly don't know how that political graph defines its predictions based on the questions asked, but I'm assuming it's based on a more global view of right & left politics considering the amount of people being where they are.


Edit* I'm guessing the reason folks like Sanders, Yang, & Biden are so far opposite of Trump in the states isn't because of how "left" they are in comparison, but how far apart they are on the social scale.

 

[TheCracker]

Edit* I'm guessing the reason folks like Sanders, Yang, & Biden are so far opposite of Trump in the states isn't because of how "left" they are in comparison, but how far apart they are on the social scale.

I think a lot of the time it simply comes down to "Biden's a Democrat therefore he must be a dirty commie" His policies aren't looked at to see where they would actually appear on a political spectrum, but the fact is he wears a blue tie, he's a Democrat, therefore he must be left of center and therefore must want to take all US citzens guns away and force them to at best pay high taxes and at worst, force everyone to earn the same low wages and live in identical concrete tower blocks and eat nothing but potato a la gruel.

 

[Joey D]

This reminds me of something...



===

Have you stopped to think that maybe the US' political spectrum isn't the same as the world's? I did, b/c I used to have that same thought & members here pointed out I was wrong. It's why many, esp. Euro, members here that look like Leftists in the US, are actually more around the center in general by the world's views. A couple have shared by their own country's balance, they're actually to the Right.

I honestly don't know how that political graph defines its predictions based on the questions asked, but I'm assuming it's based on a more global view of right & left politics considering the amount of people being where they are.


Edit* I'm guessing the reason folks like Sanders, Yang, & Biden are so far opposite of Trump in the states isn't because of how "left" they are in comparison, but how far apart they are on the social scale.

This is exactly right. The Political Compass looks at things from a world, or rather a western world view. I know more than one person has said politicians like Sanders would be considered "right-wing" in their country.

 

[jjaisli]

Have you stopped to think that maybe the US' political spectrum isn't the same as the world's?.....I'm assuming it's based on a more global view of right & left politics considering the amount of people being where they are.

I agree. I was born in the US but I'm also a dual citizen and I've spent about 5 years over the course of my life living and working outside the US. And I often travel Internationally on business, though not as frequently as I used to. And when I would hear, for example, that Obama was accused of being a communist/marxists, etc, I could only shake my head. By many standards around the world, Obama was very much a centrist, and not much of a liberal/progressive.

I personally think a lot of hardened Trump supporters who now openly criticize many current or former Republicans of being Rhinos, are just living in their own little bubble without the benefit of a larger perspective.

Having been born in a time when not everybody had instant access to the world wide web from home, let alone from anywhere or anytime on their mobile device, I would have thought that living in the age of technology would expand people's horizons and open their minds to different ideas. Instead, in many cases, it's only allowed people with closed concepts an infinite echo chamber. And many have their limited and parochial ideas reinforced by a much larger and sometimes global audience of like minded individuals. And social media with all of their algorithms forced down our throats only makes it worse. I can't tell you how many times I've watched a YouTube video to learn something about a particular subject, only to have similar videos shoved down my feed for the next two weeks.

I hate to sound like some caricature of Tyler Durdan from Fight Club, but rather than bombing credit institutions, I sometimes wish I could just shut down social media for the next few months. It's possible for people to spend all day online and never find concepts or opinions that vary from whatever notions they already carry with them. And let's not even get started on the amount of misinformation.

 

[Warte]

For those who are symphatetic or complacent with far-right ideologies, viewing the world from the far-right of the spectrum, everybody is a "far lefty", no matter if you are a social democrat, centrist, democratic conservative or anything else. It's just convenient to justify that his supreme leader is overturning the democratic rule by saying "It is to avoid communism."

 

[Famine]

as for that chart do you really think Andrew Yang is that right wing?

that chart is ********

I don't really think anything about Andrew Yang - his position on the chart is due to how the political analysts at the Compass site think he would answer the questions based on his policies and statements - but your post reads "I don't understand one part of this thing, thus the whole thing is wrong". Also "bollocks" is not a censorable word and can be typed out in full, but boy-cow-poo-poo is a censorable word and must be censored in full. Take your pick.


With Yang it's extremely easy to be completely uncritical and go "He supports a Universal Basic Income, he's a commie". And it's true, he does support UBI and that is a socialist policy. So is giving everyone $1,200 out of tax funds, but I don't think we're seeing people calling Trump a socialist... unless we are, which would be incredible.

It lacks nuance though. That's a small part of his fiscal policies. Taken as a whole they're not very left at all - while he supports single-payer healthcare (pretty left) he's opposed to the deregulation of Wall Street (pretty right). I don't see where he wants to nationalise power generation and utilities, phone companies and ISPs, or impose hugely punitive wealth taxes - he wants to abolish the penny, raise VAT (about the most right-leaning tax there is), and establish paid leave and equal pay free of sex and race discrimination.

Not everyone to the left of a totally unregulated free market economy is left wing. Yang has some policies which are to the left of a totally unregulated free market economy, but they're much further to the right of seizing the means of production. He is about as far to the left as Joe Biden is, and if your ability to comprehend the left-right spectrum is limited to "Trump = right, Biden = left" he might seem pretty left-wing...

... but he isn't. Even Sanders, who many in the USA regard as some insane figure who wishes to convert Vermont into USSR-era Vladivostok, isn't that left-wing in the grand scheme of things. The furthest left position on the chart would be occupied by someone who thinks that everyone should work in the jobs given to them by the state which controls all production in the nation, and only be given what they need by the state. There'd be legislation on reproduction, everyone would "have" the same things (all personal property would be illegal anyway), and there'd be no rich and poor - money would not even exist. On the bright side though, no taxes.

That is what a rabid left extremist looks like. When Bernie Sanders wants to make pets illegal, let me know.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I spilled a glass of wine into my keyboard

I am talking to Google to write this

I don't want you to think I am hiding

as for that chart do you really think Andrew Yang is that right wing?

that chart is b*******

Whoa whoa whoa. Wine?

I need more details here Chrunch. We talkin Night Train or some fancy import?

 

[Chrunch Houston]

I don't really think anything about Andrew Yang - his position on the chart is due to how the political analysts at the Compass site think he would answer the questions based on his policies and statements - but your post reads "I don't understand one part of this thing, thus the whole thing is wrong"

That's my point. Trump didn't take that quiz Someone else channeled Trump, and Yang, and all of them. Rubbish.

Also "bollocks" is not a censorable word and can be typed out in full, but boy-cow-poo-poo is a censorable word and must be censored in full. Take your pick.

I didn't say 'bollocks'. I don't think I have ever used that word. I'm an American. I said boy-cow-poo-poo, but it wasn't censored by gtplanet, it was censored by Google, and my wine soaked keyboard was broken so I couldn't fix it.

Whoa whoa whoa. Wine?

I need more details here Chrunch. We talkin Night Train or some fancy import?

It was a cabernet sauvignon, imported from California.

 

[Dotini]

Whew, we can all breath a great sigh of relief:


WASHINGTON (AP) — The U.S. armed forces will have no role in carrying out the election process or resolving a disputed vote, the top U.S. military officer told Congress in comments released Friday.

The comments from Gen. Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, underscore the extraordinary political environment in America, where the president has declared without evidence that the expected surge in mail-in ballots will make the vote “inaccurate and fraudulent,” and has suggested he might not accept the election results if he loses.

Trump’s repeated complaints questioning the election’s validity have triggered unprecedented worries about the potential for chaos surrounding the election results. Some have speculated that the military might be called upon to get involved, either by Trump trying to use it to help his reelection prospects or as, Democratic challenger Joe Biden has suggested, to remove Trump from the White House if he refuses to accept defeat. The military has adamantly sought to tamp down that speculation and is zealously protective of its historically nonpartisan nature.

etc.
https://apnews.com/a979ad8beceacd77c692e42448cf7b82

 

[Famine]

That's my point. Trump didn't take that quiz Someone else channeled Trump, and Yang, and all of them. Rubbish.

That's... not how it works. You don't pretend to be Trump and take the test, political analysts apply the stated policies, beliefs, voting record, and - for incumbents - laws and orders passed to the statements of the test. I already covered that here.

I didn't say 'bollocks'. I don't think I have ever used that word. I'm an American.

Apart from just then. I'm not sure what being American has to do with it - it's part of the US language too.

I said boy-cow-poo-poo, but it wasn't censored by gtplanet, it was censored by Google, and my wine soaked keyboard was broken so I couldn't fix it.

Left click and drag over an asterisk. Right click and copy. Left click and drag over the uncensored letter. Right click and paste. You were also not compelled to post it in the first place - you chose to.

Censorable words must be censored in full (or uncensored in full, and censored by the swear filter) or not posted.

 

[longshot1314]

Famine hit the nail on the head here. Also look into Unity 2020 for anyone in the U.S. looking to break the cycle. Currently selecting candidates and unsurprisingly got recently banned from twitter for ‘russian bots’ or as you know the classic excuse used to play off when people support a radical idea that the establishment doesn’t like.

https://articlesofunity.org/

 

[eran0004]

Rubbish

If we can’t place Trump on a scale from left to right, on the grounds that he did not take a quiz, how do you know that he is not in fact to the left of Joe Biden? How do you know that he is not a Marxist?