The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[Rich S]

Why should anyone care what anyone else does if it doesn't affect other people?

I think the point was that if you really believe that someone is doing something bad then you try and stop them ie (if one sees a man beating his wife, they report it to police.)

But Agent 47 said its other's business what they do and not his after saying gay is a sin against god/nature.

 

[Grifimus]

Honestly, I don't care about homosexuality. I have 2 gay friends and I respect them for who they are. As long as they are human. Everybody should be treated the same way according to my own honest opinion.

 

[FoolKiller]

I think the point was that if you really believe that someone is doing something bad then you try and stop them ie (if one sees a man beating his wife, they report it to police.)

Then every Christian/Jew should want all other belief systems, including atheism, outlawed, as the 1st commandment is having no other gods before Him.

There are sinful acts like not respecting your parents and others like spousal abuse. We stop the abuse, not because it is sinful in nature, but because it harms another.

Homosexuality, as a sin falls under the not harming others category. Any reasonable person who finds it sinful will let God sort it out.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Then every Christian/Jew should want all other belief systems, including atheism, outlawed, as the 1st commandment is having no other gods before Him.
...
Homosexuality, as a sin falls under the not harming others category. Any reasonable person who finds it sinful will let God sort it out.

Atheism wouldn't be outlawed in that context as it is specifically not another God, and of course all belief systems promote themselves above all other.

How is Homosexuality "harming others"? Could you explain what you mean by that?

 

[Danny]

How is Homosexuality "harming others"? Could you explain what you mean by that?

Woah there.

Homosexuality, as a sin falls under the not harming others category.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Homosexuality, as a sin falls under the not harming others category. Any reasonable person who finds it sinful will let God sort it out.

How is Homosexuality "harming others"? Could you explain what you mean by that?

Woah there.

???

I think it's a reasonable question, @FoolKiller says "Homosexuality as a sin falls under the not harming others category".

I'm interested in what makes "Homosexuality a sin", it can't be because it doesn't harm others, unless that's what Foolkiller meant? I was interested in why Homosexuality is part of "not harming others", it doesn't make sense that it would figure in that directive.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Homosexuality, as a sin falls under the not harming others category.

What's the point of it being a sin then?

 

[BobK]

Then every Christian/Jew should want all other belief systems, including atheism, outlawed, as the 1st commandment is having no other gods before Him.

History shows a track record of exactly that. Not just outlawed, but made a capital crime in many cases.

Homosexuality, as a sin falls under the not harming others category. Any reasonable person who finds it sinful will let God sort it out.

Quote of the Year right there. 👍

 

[Agent_47]

What's the point of it being a sin then?

It 'does' harm others, but I don't really feel like arguing with people in here and getting banned for hurting their feelings. As was said, let God sort it out.

History shows a track record of exactly that. Not just outlawed, but made a capital crime in many cases.

Where? I don't know any Christian countries where it's illegal to be of another religion.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It 'does' harm others, but I don't really feel like arguing with people in here and getting banned for hurting their feelings. As was said, let God sort it out.

If you explain rationally and sensibly why it hurts others then I doubt you'll be banned. The mods are as likely to engage interesting points as any other user!

Where? I don't know any Christian countries where it's illegal to be of another religion.

Are you absolutely sure that you're confident that nowhere in Christian history has worshipping 'false' gods been punishable by death?

 

[Scaff]

Where? I don't know any Christian countries where it's illegal to be of another religion.

Historically (which was the context used) Christians have killed others for following the wrong Christian sect, let alone for being of a differing religion. The history of Russia (Orthodox vs. Old Faith), England, Scotland and France (all Protestant vs Catholic) alone are enough to illustrate that.

However one of the most extreme 20th century examples would be Hitler dedicating his extermination of the Jews to his (Catholic) god, a point he made repeatedly from the 1920's until the very year of his death.

 

[FoolKiller]

How is Homosexuality "harming others"? Could you explain what you mean by that?

I didn't say it was "harming others," so I don't know how to answer that. It isn't.

???

I think it's a reasonable question, @FoolKiller says "Homosexuality as a sin falls under the not harming others category".

I'm interested in what makes "Homosexuality a sin", it can't be because it doesn't harm others, unless that's what Foolkiller meant? I was interested in why Homosexuality is part of "not harming others", it doesn't make sense that it would figure in that directive.

How would it not fall under the category of "not harming others?" Who is harmed outside the homosexual relationship.

As for it being a sin...I don't believe it is. Never claimed it was. This was me explaining someone else's view that you questioned, not my own view. Don't forget how this started.

What's the point of it being a sin then?

Sins are supposedly offenses against God. Heck 6 of the 10 Commandments don't involve touching another person or their property.

History shows a track record of exactly that. Not just outlawed, but made a capital crime in many cases.

That's why I included the word "every" as some do think that way. Even the US has Santorum.

As the history seemed to come up, I was referring to present day. Historically most western civilizations have committed many atrocities. No point digging up the past when trying to change the future.

It 'does' harm others,

You see two guys kiss. You've been harmed how? Those guys later have sex in their home. You've been harmed how? They get married. You've been harmed how?

 

[TenEightyOne]

How would it not fall under the category of "not harming others?" Who is harmed outside the homosexual relationship.

There isn't a category of "sin" called "not harming others"... because that wouldn't traditionally be considered sinful. Harming others would.

When you said "Homosexuality, as a sin falls under the not harming others category" I presumed that you meant Homosexuality was a harmful sin.

Otherwise how do you propose that Homosexuality is a sin (the context you present it in)? Or that there's harm?

 

[Famine]

FK is saying that, though it's classed as a sin, homosexuality doesn't harm anyone who isn't a willing participant in it and is thus not something people should try to stamp out as though it were a harmful-to-others sin - it's one for the deity on the appropriate day.

Similarly suicide is classed as a sin. Who does that harm? Same deal.

 

[Sage Ages]

Suicide is classed as a sin. Who does that harm?

Quite of bit of people. Usually not literal harm, but you get the idea.

 

[TenEightyOne]

homosexuality doesn't harm anyone who isn't a willing participant in it

Okay, I think I understand... but he did write that Homosexuality was a sin so I just wondered how

Are you or he saying that it does harm willing participants?

 

[Danny]

Similarly suicide is classed as a sin. Who does that harm?

The entire Hitman industry.

 

[Famine]

Okay, I think I understand... but he did write that Homosexuality was a sin so I just wondered how

It's a concept inherent to his particular religion. But, as a human being, he recognises that it's not something that's any of his business because it doesn't hurt anyone.

So it's regarded as a sin, but it's one of those that doesn't harm anyone.

Are you or he saying that it does harm willing participants?

Neither of those things.

Though I could cite massively elevated rates of anal squamous cell carcinomas in homosexual men - it's not really anything to do with homosexuality (doesn't affect gay women, does affect straight women who enjoy "that sort of thing") per se, just putting things up your bottom.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It's a concept inherent to his particular religion. But, as a human being, he recognises that it's not something that's any of his business because it doesn't hurt anyone.

So it's regarded as a sin, but it's one of those that doesn't harm anyone.Neither of those things.

Though I could cite massively elevated rates of anal squamous cell carcinomas in homosexual men - it's not really anything to do with homosexuality (doesn't affect gay women, does affect straight women who enjoy "that sort of thing") per se, just putting things up your bottom.

Well, now you mention it I did wonder

Can one not see the same kind of rate elevation for cervical cancer for women with a longer history of unprotected penile intercourse (as opposed to 'sheathed' or equally regular 'other item'). Fact not checked, just half-remembered.

I see the point of what FK is saying now and shall refrain from splitting hairs, as it were.

 

[Famine]

If normalised for HPV transmission, probably not. In fact it's fun to note that women who are regularly exposed to semen have, generally, a lower rate of illness (normalised for STD transmission - so pretty much monogamous relationships) than those who are always covered.

I say "fun to note". I mean "useful for bribery".

 

[TenEightyOne]

... it's fun to note that women who are regularly exposed to semen have, generally, a lower rate of illness than those who are always covered.

That's quite some chat-up line

 

[Agent_47]

You see two guys kiss. You've been harmed how? Those guys later have sex in their home. You've been harmed how? They get married. You've been harmed how?

It sets an example that I don't think others should follow.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It sets an example that I don't think others should follow.

That's an interesting view - could you explain some more?

Also, you could go on to say who "others" are? Let's say the example is two guys kissing in public, just an affectionate one-kiss-on-the-lips "see you later" thing, not full-on wrestling.

Is it worse for children to see? For men? For women? Would people be led to copy them? Should what they're doing be forbidden? Would people be right to comment to them about what they were doing?

 

[Agent_47]

That's an interesting view - could you explain some more?

Also, you could go on to say who "others" are? Let's say the example is two guys kissing in public, just an affectionate one-kiss-on-the-lips "see you later" thing, not full-on wrestling.

Is it worse for children to see? For men? For women? Would people be led to copy them? Should what they're doing be forbidden? Would people be right to comment to them about what they were doing?

I'm just going to stop here. I don't feel like getting into a huge debate and banned for being politically incorrect. I am simply sharing my opinion.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm just going to stop here. I don't feel like getting into a huge debate and banned for being politically incorrect. I am simply sharing my opinion.

This thread is Off-Topic, about Opinions, and specifically discusses homosexuality including people's views on it. If you present your opinion in a calm way it will be questioned and possibly answered in a calm way too All Opinions are invited - or at least that's what I've always found?

Maybe you'll answer questions about your opinion that will change your mind? Maybe you'll answer questions that make you even more sure you're right... but in ways you hadn't considered before? That's the fun of debate, looking at things you already know in a new way. "Keep it civil" and "back up factual claims with evidence" are the main two rules, I think

 

[FoolKiller]

There isn't a category of "sin" called "not harming others"... because that wouldn't traditionally be considered sinful. Harming others would.

There aren't laws that get categorized either. But I think drugs should be legal. There is no church-recognized harmful to others an not harmful to others category. It is my category. The only sins I think should be banned by law are the ones that do harm other people.

If you think to be sin it must be harmful to others then read the Ten Commandments. The first four don't even mention other people. The Fifth is about respecting your parents (mean, but not harmful if broken), the tenth is about coveting others' possessions or spouse. These should not be confused with stealing (8th) or adultery (7th). So, six of ten the first written laws in judeo-Christian belief don't involve any harm to others.

When you said "Homosexuality, as a sin falls under the not harming others category" I presumed that you meant Homosexuality was a harmful sin.

That makes no sense. I blatantly said not.

Otherwise how do you propose that Homosexuality is a sin (the context you present it in)? Or that there's harm?

I don't think it is. It is presented in a book of the Bible devoted to Jewish cleanliness laws, like what kind of animals may be eaten (I eat as many as I can, wearing mixed fibers (I just wear whatever is comfortable), or being around women on their periods (I'm married with a daughter. What can I do?).

And let me repeat myself:

As for it being a sin...I don't believe it is. Never claimed it was. This was me explaining someone else's view that you questioned, not my own view. Don't forget how this started.

I try to clarify someone else's point for you and suddenly I'm calling homosexuals sinners, despite repeatedly having told the story of my lesbian cousin getting married in a church, in this thread. It's like people haven't read the thread before jumping in...hurm.

It sets an example that I don't think others should follow.

So, it's just like promiscuity, bad language, or being mean to your parents?

 

[TenEightyOne]

I try to clarify someone else's point for you and suddenly I'm calling homosexuals sinners...

Oy oy oy, enough...

Homosexuality, as a sin falls under the not harming others category. Any reasonable person who finds it sinful will let God sort it out.

There it is - "Homosexuality, as a sin". Then there's the "not harming others" category of sin. I didn't see, and still don't, how you classify "not harming others" as sinful or group sins as "not harming others". That was all. I'd never heard of the category! I just answered your words directly.

There is no church-recognized harmful to others an not harmful to others category. It is my category.

Ah, that's why then. I do think it's a pretty rubbish category. Sorry

...despite repeatedly having told the story of my lesbian cousin getting married in a church, in this thread. It's like people haven't read the thread before jumping in...

No I think I remember, but wouldn't have remembered it was you. Is this thread even licensed for marriages though? Hehe, that was a joke too. Sorry again. A couple of people already set me straight, if you can imagine that, on the true meaning of your words so I think we can carry on

 

[Agent_47]

So, it's just like promiscuity, bad language, or being mean to your parents?

I think that is a fair comparison.

 

[FoolKiller]

Oy oy oy, enough...




There it is - "Homosexuality, as a sin". Then there's the "not harming others" category of sin. I didn't see, and still don't, how you classify "not harming others" as sinful or group sins as "not harming others". That was all. I'd never heard of the category! I just answered your words directly.

In a back and forth referencing Agent_47's post. That was still the topic at hand, not my beliefs.

I think that is a fair comparison.

Yeah, those don't harm others either. They may make you an ass or a risky person, but true harm is not being done. The only way it does in the way you mean is if everyone else are mindless, blank slates just waiting to be imprinted on.

Then of course, there is the fact that people can't choose to become or stop being homosexual, the way you can watch your tongue, keep your pants on, or learn some respect.

 

[BobK]

I don't feel like getting into a huge debate and banned for being politically incorrect.

Nobody has been banned simply for expressing an opinion, no matter how popular/unpopular, politically correct or not, it is. What people have been banned for, though, is the manner in which their opinions are expressed; e.g., saying "I don't understand why you people can't see my point of view" is okay, but saying "I don't understand why you idiots can't see my point of view" is going to get you in trouble with the mods. Another pitfall is expressing an opinion as if it were fact then refusing to back up your "fact" with evidence and/or citations. For example saying "Homos are all sick in the head" will get you in trouble. Saying "It is my belief that all homos are sick in the head" will get you roundly criticized, but not outright banned for the statement. However the flamefest likely to ensue from a statement like that has a good chance of causing warnings/infractions to be issued.