The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

  • Thread starter Duke
  • 9,138 comments
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I think homosexuality is:

  • a problem that needs to be cured.

    Votes: 88 6.0%
  • a sin against God/Nature.

    Votes: 145 9.8%
  • OK as long as they don't talk about it.

    Votes: 62 4.2%
  • OK for anybody.

    Votes: 416 28.2%
  • nobody's business but the people involved.

    Votes: 765 51.8%

  • Total voters
    1,476
Yup, you have rights to your own individual opinions and should be able to express them, right up until you tell someone they can't legally marry. At that point your rights end and theirs begin, because you're telling the government to apply law (force) unequally. In the US, we didn't vote on it. It was just recognized as a human right enumerated in the constitution by the supreme court. That makes a whole lot more sense to me.
I guess you have point there.

The Australian decision process is absolutely ridiculous.
We went to the last election with both parties promising they would pass laws to allow same sex marriage.

It would've been a simple solution to add a question to the ballot paper asking the Australian public exactly that: do you agree or not.

Instead we're about to spend $122 million on it - money we can't afford. Proof the idiots are running the asylum.
Australian Politics is basically say what you're going to do and then just keep doing the same 🤬 you're currently doing. Granted it's not just the leaders fault as you actually vote for the party to be in power not the person.

$122 million is an absurd price indeed for something like this especially since what you said sounded like a much more valid option.
 
Careful guys, that's how we got Trump.
Unlike Trump, our parties can kick out our Prime Minister at any time if they don't like him/her.

Wouldn't be surprised if this happens after the gay marriage voting, few politicians are against it and the fact that we are losing 122 million on it is going to stir up some issues.
 
New study claims that a machine learning algorithm can identify, with decent accuracy, gay faces vs. straight faces when considering only images of faces.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41188560

Obviously it needs to be verified, and it needs a great deal more study. If it is true though, it has really broad implications. If it's true, the technology undoubtedly could be a whole heck of a lot more adept at this than the first attempt by some researchers on a slim budget not sure how their work was going to pan out. Here are some of the implications that spring to mind immediately:

- Further evidence that being gay is not a choice
- What does Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, or any other nation hostile to gay people do with this? On the one hand, it could be used to round up and incarcerate gay people. On the other hand, you're rounding up people based on the way their face looks? You can't exactly hide behind "deviant lifestyle" at that point.
- Will this technology reach a point where parents can run their kids faces? Will parents being "coming out" to their kids? "Have a seat Johnny, we have something to tell you. You're gay. We discovered this 8 years ago when we ran your photo. We're here to help you with understanding what this means". Soooo different from the current scenario where kids have to figure it out for themselves, sometimes after years of denial, and are practically expected by some of those around them to help others adjust to the news.

I know it's early to be thinking about the implications since it could be debunked. But if these findings hold up, the ramifications are nothing short of amazing.
 
- Further evidence that being gay is not a choice

The problem is that those data were all about choice - they were selfies posted to a dating website. The sexuality of each subject was self-identified. A proper control needs to look beyond stylistics and concentrate on biometry, if that's found to have ground then I'll eat my hat.

For a machine to spot that 7 out of 10 men adopting particular styles or expressions might be gay doesn't make it any more accurate than gaydar, imo.

I know it's early to be thinking about the implications since it could be debunked. But if these findings hold up, the ramifications are nothing short of amazing.

Quite, but we've been here before with "facial shapes indicate agression". Further controlled research didn't find the original research's conclusions to be correct.
 
That thing is probably as accurate as those Facebook pages that "judge you" or "tell you your ancestry blood line", based off your avatar.
I've seen my friends share some woppers of inaccuracies.
 
The problem is that those data were all about choice - they were selfies posted to a dating website. The sexuality of each subject was self-identified. A proper control needs to look beyond stylistics and concentrate on biometry, if that's found to have ground then I'll eat my hat.

It's not looking at what clothes they wore. It's looking at their facial characteristics.

For a machine to spot that 7 out of 10 men adopting particular styles or expressions might be gay doesn't make it any more accurate than gaydar, imo.

8 out of 10, and it was based on facial characteristics. The control "gaydar" group was 50/50.

Edit: When given multiple images for an individual, the accuracy increased to 91%.

Quite, but we've been here before with "facial shapes indicate agression". Further controlled research didn't find the original research's conclusions to be correct.

Yea, that was linked in the article I posted. That's a very different study, in which researchers tried to tease out specific facial features themselves. This is a machine learning algorithm, in which the researchers don't even tell the machine what to look for. They just seed it with test cases and let it figure out how to decipher between them. I'm not saying that this study can't be debunked, but they're not really comparable studies. For one, "aggression" is a tough thing to quantify.

That thing is probably as accurate as those Facebook pages that "judge you" or "tell you your ancestry blood line", based off your avatar.
I've seen my friends share some woppers of inaccuracies.

9 out of 10. And that's from an attempt that was done in a cave with a box of scraps by researchers who didn't think it would work.

The immediate step that could be taken would be to seed the machine learning algorithm with more test cases. They could seed it with ages too, and other characteristics easily obtained about random individuals. That should only make it more accurate.

The nice part about this study is that it won't take much money to do an independent follow-up, so we shouldn't have to wait long for a debunk or confirmation journal article.
 
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If it can be proven that homosexuals have distinct faces from heterosexuals, is there then a way of pinpointing the genetics or gene behind it? The potential implication of such a discovery is rather dangerous.
 
If it can be proven that homosexuals have distinct faces from heterosexuals, is there then a way of pinpointing the genetics or gene behind it? The potential implication of such a discovery is rather dangerous.

One theory is that it has to do with hormonal exposure during pregnancy, rather than genetics. Who knows. But if homosexuality were a genetic trait, would it be wrong to control for that? People do it already with other characteristics, such as gender.
 
It's not looking at what clothes they wore. It's looking at their facial characteristics.

It is looking at clothes, including necklines - that's in your link. The researchers also mention "transient facial characteristics, such as grooming" and "expression" rather than the biometry that you imply.

8 out of 10, and it was based on facial characteristics. The control "gaydar" group was 50/50.

The pre-experiment projection was 6/10 (male) 5.5/10 (women) in the 2009 figures with a higher accuracy achieved in 2013 figures. Those two accuracy measurements were not from the same set of images. On single images the regression logarithm scored 8.1 (male) and 9.4 (female), it was more accurate when given five images of each subject. The writers stress several times that these are not all biometric attributes but transient attributes such as grooming, expression and clothing. They note that lesbians wear less make up, have higher necklines and tend to wear baseball caps (in their results, that is) and that gay men have lighter skin and less facial hair. From there the algorithm decided who was more feminine/masculine than the gender of the image and partly based its decision on that.

Yea, that was linked in the article I posted. That's a very different study, in which researchers tried to tease out specific facial features themselves.

Your link contained the original paper, not the document I linked.
 
It is looking at clothes, including necklines - that's in your link. The researchers also mention "transient facial characteristics, such as grooming" and "expression" rather than the biometry that you imply... The writers stress several times that these are not all biometric attributes but transient attributes such as grooming, expression and clothing. They note that lesbians wear less make up, have higher necklines and tend to wear baseball caps (in their results, that is) and that gay men have lighter skin and less facial hair. From there the algorithm decided who was more feminine/masculine than the gender of the image and partly based its decision on that

Yea, I stopped short of saying that it's entirely looking at biometrics. One article I read on it did suggest that it weighed items that can be changed easily less than items which could not. I guess you got me that baseball caps and necklines are clothing. It's not what I meant, but you're technically correct.

Most of what it has to work with is the face itself. Even if the results were entirely based on grooming and expression (which they aren't), that can still be used to support some of the conclusions I drew earlier. The point is that it may be feasible to train a machine learning algorithm on a known dataset to find gay people from within a population. Whatever cues it uses, and they wouldn't even necessarily be the same from one culture to another, it can determine what to look for.

But the biological component of this is really what's interesting to me. It could fuel a bunch more research into embryo development, brain chemistry, and change the way portions of the population and world governments think about homosexuality.

The pre-experiment projection was 6/10 (male) 5.5/10 (women) in the 2009 figures with a higher accuracy achieved in 2013 figures. Those two accuracy measurements were not from the same set of images. On single images the regression logarithm scored 8.1 (male) and 9.4 (female), it was more accurate when given five images of each subject.

....at which point it obtained 91% accuracy for men.

So... why the strong negative reaction? This is interesting stuff.

If you inherited it the bloodline wouldn't go very far...

I wish genetics worked that way exclusively. There are plenty of genetic disorders such as down syndrome that arise simply from mutations. That's not to say down syndrome can't be propagated to children of down syndrome suffers, that's to say that people with down syndrome aren't out there having tons of kids. There are so many syndromes resulting from genetic disorders that are not carried by the parents, but which result in children with those genes. It's staggering and depressing when you really get into it.

I don't mean to pick on you, but people have a false sense of security when it comes to the assumed health of their offspring (for many reasons) that is based on the faulty assumption that the parents are "normal" so the children will be. That assumption discourages early testing in pregnancy, and testing prior to conception, to everyone's detriment.

Being gay is obviously not a genetic disorder (or any kind of disorder), but it could still be genetically transmitted, provided that people who carried it had enough offspring. I think the research suggests this is not the case, but just pointing out that it is possible to have more than one kid and thereby to propagate genes despite one of your offspring not having biological children. And of course, gay women can have biological children.

Edit:

Aw heck, I know a gay man who has biological children. Why did I not include that?
 
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There are plenty of genetic disorders such as down syndrome that arise simply from mutations.
And then there's epigenetics, which is not a change in the genome, but a change in how the genes are expressed.
 
Isn't this the same guy we were warned to not talk about in this thread a few months ago?
Dunno. But he only resigned yesterday. The current candidates for mayor, both lesbian, have roundly condemned him, and denounced his political support.
 
Postal Votes came yesterday, made my vote and submitted. I know it doesn't and shouldn't have to go to this but I don't see any other option to change Australia's laws right now.

Though political claws are definitely coming out about it, kinda scary actually. I was immediately judged by my Mums girlfriend (she was delivering the postal votes back) because I took awhile to tick the box when I was just reading the entire letter since this was actually my first ever vote.
 
Postal Votes came yesterday, made my vote and submitted. I know it doesn't and shouldn't have to go to this but I don't see any other option to change Australia's laws right now.

Though political claws are definitely coming out about it, kinda scary actually. I was immediately judged by my Mums girlfriend (she was delivering the postal votes back) because I took awhile to tick the box when I was just reading the entire letter since this was actually my first ever vote.
Doesn't sound like a very nice or upstanding member of the gay community.
 
Some people are just dicks no matter what community they're a part of.
Yeah, I'm not sure such dickish behaviour should reflect on the wider community they're part of or influence which way someone votes. Gay people are not saints or paragons of virtue. People are people regardless which is the whole idea behind the vote in the first place.
 
Yeah, I'm not sure such dickish behaviour should reflect on the wider community they're part of or influence which way someone votes. Gay people are not saints or paragons of virtue. People are people regardless which is the whole idea behind the vote in the first place.
I've always believed actions like that are actions of an individual not by the community unless it was pretty much commanded by the community itself.

However the concept of community especially in the political climate always rubbed me the wrong way, I feel like it has been creating such a massive us vs. them mentality from both sides which is giving the illusion that people in a certain community think the same. Either "stop the PC culture madness" or 'everyone who's against us is a bad person". I'm an Asexual so that would put me in the LGBT+ community (though to be honest I'm not sure as the A often just means Ally to some and I never received problems from people for being Asexual so far) but even then I feel so alienated from it all, this doesn't change my views from LGBT rights one bit as these are opinions after all and popular opinions of a group have nothing to do with rights of the group, but this sort of mindset of us vs. them isn't helping anyone. I know not everyone is apart of this and a lot disagree with this too but it does feel like a lot of exposure from the media and leaders of movements crave on this mentality and some people just eat up.

I guess politics can just bring out the worse in people, because outside of this situation she is relatively ok.
 
Due to my general inactivity in the big ol' life outside of the internet, there might well be none.

Don't worry, by definition you are part of community in town where you live and ultimately part of Finnish nation which is also community ;)


I've always believed actions like that are actions of an individual not by the community unless it was pretty much commanded by the community itself.

However the concept of community especially in the political climate always rubbed me the wrong way, I feel like it has been creating such a massive us vs. them mentality from both sides which is giving the illusion that people in a certain community think the same.

same 👍 ... almost as off-putting as a religion
 
I was raised Catholic and believe homosexuality to be a sinful lifestyle. But that's my 'opinion.' If somebody wants to be homosexual, that is entirely their business and choice, not mine.
 

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