The Human Thirst for Knowledge - Blessing or Curse?

[Joel]

Well, I have to say I think we had this topic wrapped up, until Dotini threw his fuel on the fire there. It's a difficult thing to answer.

I don't agree with him on the Global warming thing, but the analogy is all that matters. I think that our thirst for knowledge is overall a great thing. If it wasn't for us wanting to know why, we wouldn't be posting here right now.

 

[Dotini]

Here is a link to today's NY Times. Likely not everybody can open it due to subscription issues. But it strongly suggests mounting evidence that links cell phone use to brain cancer.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/02/us/02cell.html?th&emc=th

So the question is, does prudence and the precautionary principle dictate that we avoid potentially fatal technologies until they are proven safe, or should we use them until they are proven dangerous because of their obvious economic and convenience benefits?

If we decide to use them, and it turns out that cell phones do in fact cause brain cancer, then do we deserve what we have coming to us? Would it be fair for a non-user to enjoy a certain degree of schadenfreude at our expense?

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Empowerment always carries a heavy price tag of potential for evil as well as good purposes. Sometimes intended and sometimes not.

It appears we have a creative nature, the products of which are not always restrainable or used for humanitarian purposes.

There's also a flipside - people might turn other research into weapons, but people also turn weapons research into other things. Without Hitler's love of ballistics (which, ironically, was the brainchild of a Brit) we wouldn't have space exploration.

Good case in point. However I would say his motivation was more "lust" than "love" and not of ballistics, but rather any further empowering means to exert continued "forced" domination and control upon any who would dare oppose him.

Ironically this lust gave birth to most of the technological advancements in use today. Still it came at a very high cost.

 

[niky]

Funny... the last two or three people who I know who've died of brain cancer have never used a cellphone in their life.

Studies have never been conclusive on this point... but it's always better safe than sorry, I guess.

 

[Dotini]

It is my understanding that my father died from brain cancer due to excessive exposure to atomic radiation. He was employed by the US government in the delivery of atomic bombs to Japan in WWII. After the war, all through the 50's and 60's he analyzed well bore samples using radioactive isotopes, while working as a petroleum geologist.

The important principle is that radiation of various forms causing cellular damage with the potential for genetic mutation and abnormal growth, both in one's self and in one's offspring.

That we are all living with the specter of skyrocketing cancer rates since WWII and now skyrocketing rates of autism, Alzheimer's and other terrible disorders without well understood causes is eloquent testimony to the dangers of unintended consequences in humanity's ceaseless application of technology to every aspect of life.

Respectfully,
Dotini

 

[SuperCobraJet]

It is my understanding that my father died from brain cancer due to excessive exposure to atomic radiation. He was employed by the US government in the delivery of atomic bombs to Japan in WWII. After the war, all through the 50's and 60's he analyzed well bore samples using radioactive isotopes, while working as a petroleum geologist.

The important principle is that radiation of various forms causing cellular damage with the potential for genetic mutation and abnormal growth, both in one's self and in one's offspring.

That we are all living with the specter of skyrocketing cancer rates since WWII and now skyrocketing rates of autism, Alzheimer's and other terrible disorders without well understood causes is eloquent testimony to the dangers of unintended consequences in humanity's ceaseless application of technology to every aspect of life.

Respectfully,
Dotini

Another good case in point.

Atomic power is generating the power for my house as this is typed and has since the late seventies or early eighties.

If it wasn't I would be paying considerably more for power.
(Although I must note, that shouldn't be the case with an abundance of coal nearby. But thats another story)

As mentioned, radiation exposure can cause chromosome damage resulting in a host of various maladies.

 

[niky]

It is my understanding that my father died from brain cancer due to excessive exposure to atomic radiation. He was employed by the US government in the delivery of atomic bombs to Japan in WWII. After the war, all through the 50's and 60's he analyzed well bore samples using radioactive isotopes, while working as a petroleum geologist.

The important principle is that radiation of various forms causing cellular damage with the potential for genetic mutation and abnormal growth, both in one's self and in one's offspring.

That we are all living with the specter of skyrocketing cancer rates since WWII and now skyrocketing rates of autism, Alzheimer's and other terrible disorders without well understood causes is eloquent testimony to the dangers of unintended consequences in humanity's ceaseless application of technology to every aspect of life.

Respectfully,
Dotini

It's important to discern between different kinds of radiation.

We are literally swimming in a sea of radiation. The constant bombardment of the Earth by cosmic rays is thought to be partially responsible for the incredible diversity of life on Earth.

The sun emits radiation in the form of visible light.

We are bathed in radio waves from various natural and man-made sources. That static you hear on the radio between stations? That's radiation.

Nuclear radiation that researchers and workers dealt with in the industry during the war and the immediate post-war era is much more dangerous than microwaves, in that its ability to penetrate tissue and cause cellular damage is much, much much greater.

There is no evidence that brain cancer rates are increasing or decreasing overall... they should have been affected by the increasing proliferation of cellphones... but they weren't. They should have been lowered by the advent of newer cellphones with lower power emitters... but they weren't. There's no conclusive evidence for this... and for every small study that seems to suggest it could be possible, there are bigger studies that show that there's no correlation between the small amount emitted by modern cellphones and actual cancer incidence in humans.

And there's no direct link between cellphones and gas station fires, either... not unless your battery explodes...

Autism is something many people don't understand. There's increasing reporting of Autism simply because more and more doctors are becoming familiar with the condition.

Or not.

I've seen some special kids who were apparently misdiagnosed with Autism, as they don't really exhibit the classical signs... and yet the moment a doctor sees a lack of communication skills, they cry "Autism!".

It's the same as ADHD. While some of the prevalence of ADHD may be due to the effects of electronic media... in the old days, we didn't call these kids ADHD... we simply called them hyperactive.

Much like the hysteria over Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder or Gulf War Syndrome... every new disorder discovered leads to a flurry of diagnoses supporting its existence... whether it's valid or not.

 

[Joel]

I have to agree. ADD/ ADHD is now being prescribed all the time, and they hand out ritalin like it's candy.

 

[Keef]

I have to agree. ADD/ ADHD is now being prescribed all the time, and they hand out ritalin like it's candy.

I blame an ADHD misdiagnosis and treatment with Ritalin for many of the social anxieties that I've dealt with since I was a little kid. Everyone has problems, and most are normal, many I've watched myself grow out of as usual, but occasionally irrational social fears get conjured up that I simply can't make sense of.

But I still have to thank technology. Even though it's made me stick myself at home by myself all the time at least it gave me this computer to keep me occupied...

 

[Eric.]

Just so happens I've started playing Metal Gear Solid and now I'm reading a thread about the lessons it brings...

 

[Dotini]

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wirestory?id=9492635&page=1

Here is a recent large study of Autism. Ten clusters of autism were studied in California. The common denominator initially appeared to be white well-educated families.

 

[niky]

It's a common denominator because white, well-educated families are more likely to watch "The Doctors" and read books on Autism than the uneducated... as noted in that article.

You might as well ask: "Why are all my autistic patients (at a therapy center) rich?"

This is a study that requires much more fieldwork, as the proponents themselves admit... since autism is not as easy to diagnose (or again, mis-diagnose) as cancer. There are many cases of mild autism that go undiagnosed, and have gone undiagnosed in the past before the syndrome was well-understood (it still isn't). There are those who say that Einstein had Asperger's, note.

Identifying and lumping together numerous disparate (in intensity) conditions under the blanket term "autism" makes it difficult to study incidence. Mild forms of autism are not immediately apparent (again, Einstein, possibly-maybe), and all forms include traits and behaviors that may be diagnosed on their own as separate conditions.

Or go undiagnosed, because they're not problematic, or a family is too poor to afford a proper diagnosis. Many autistic kids in poor families are simply labelled "retarded".

 

[Dotini]

There certainly must be something afoot if 1 in 5000 had it in the 70's, and 1 in 70 males are afflicted today.

If you really have it, then you never reproduce and you need constant care for the remainder of your life. It's an unmitigated disaster for the children, parents and society.

The question is, what part of these stats are the full blown deal, and what part consists of milder disorders like nose-picking that the kids will somehow snap out of?

 

[niky]

One in seventy?

The study mentions 1 in 110... but it's strange to note that of 2.5 million births, they only have on record 10,000 cases... which is 1 in 250.

And some Autists can take care of themselves, can lead fruitful lives and can reproduce. Autism spectrum disorder covers a huge swath of related but not equal cases ranging from Asperger's syndrome (which is mild and only partially inhibits social function) to full-blown Autism, which can include severe mental retardation.

Even those afflicted with the full set of classic signs of autism can be taught to function on a daily basis within a structured environment. Since stereotypical behavior is a classic hallmark of autism, it can be used as a tool in developing a daily routine that these students can follow.

And again. It's a chicken and egg argument. Are there statistically more reported cases of autism because there are more cases or simply because we now know what to look for?

-

It's hard to pinpoint an environmental cause for autism, because very little is known about how it develops... though there are some theories that it may be caused by an autoimmune response... which is why some who study autism recommend that parents keep gluten out of the diet... gluten which is found in grains... and why conspiracy theories abound linking autism to immunization drives. I've researched this before... autism is in my field of study from back in College, and my wife is a practicing Special Education teacher... and the incredible hysteria over immunization-linked autism (which is bogus) causes many people to ask us about it or to warn us against vaccination.

One interesting theory (that I have only learned about recently) is that it is due to genetic damage due to the fact that many older couples are now having children... a plausible idea, since having children late in life does carry the danger of genetic damage and has been linked to Down Syndrome (gotta look this up... been years since I took this up in College... yeah... I was right).

Thus... the fact that you see high incidence rates amongst well educated white families may be partially attributed to the fact that well-educated and well-off couples tend to have children later in life... which carries a lot of dangers, especially if you're having your first child in your late 30's or even in your 40's.

Nothing to do with "progress". More to do with lifestyle choices caused by economic and social factors. But again... this is just hypothetical, not proven, yet. (For autism... the dangers in regards to Down Syndrome are well documented)

In the end, the overwhelming majority of evidence points to a genetic cause to autism, but the exact manner in which this happens is a mystery. And again, we don't know the true numbers, because reporting for autism in the old days was very sketchy... while again, again... in my personal experience... there are many diagnoses that seem dubious on this account... which is why the term autism spectral disorder is now being used... as many cases of autism aren't exactly of the same intensity or with the same presentation.

 

[Jim Prower]

Eh, I live with Autism, and I'm about to graduate from college. For me, it was just a matter of pushing through certain barriers. wasn't pleasant, but I've had to.

I know many people with "high-functioning Autism," or "Asperger's Syndrome," which is what I have, and many of them have been quite successful in the realm of science and technology. A man who wrote a book titled "look me in the eyes when i'm talking to you" created KISS's famous "Exploding guitars," and owns an exotic car service. Another, an MSN penpal from Sweden, makes some fantastic fantasy addons for Virtual Sailor and Microsoft Train Simulator...unfortunately, some troll has hacked his site, and he's basically said "**** the world, they dont' want my stuff, I won't let them have it." (apologies for the cursing, but I think that describes it well)

some humorous observations of myself and other aspies.

1. We all like trains. All of us. I've not yet met an Aspie who doesn't.
2. We all need someone in our lives to throw us into the fray. For me, this is mom.
3. We need the schedule ahead of time. WAY ahead of time. This way, we can prepare ourselves. We don't do spontaneous.
4. We all like the way we are, and can't understand why people can't understand us.
5. We laugh, because Rain Man is way worse than most of us.
6. We have friends. They're just other Aspies.
7. We like stuff that makes loud noises (Airplanes, Fireworks, Monster Trucks,) but can't stand the actual loud noises.
8. Many of us identify with animals. A few of us are Furries...but we're too shy to be hardcore Furries.

Um...back on topic...thirst for knowledge.

I think that the world of quantum physics is getting to the point where Science can no longer be supported by technology. Half of it's thought experiments, the other involves "How small a particle can I find?" It's a little crazy, in my opinion. How can I apply a black hole to my everyday life?

 

[DK]

I think it's a blessing that humans can question beliefs. Otherwise we'd still have the arrogant belief of a geocentric universe created less than 10,000 years ago with animals arriving days after, instead of billions of years.

 

[niky]

Lucky you, Jim. Took me seven years to slog through it... can't study more than fifteen minutes at a time, damn Atari-induced ADHD...

RE: Science:

Practical applications of quantum physics are far off... but we can see a glimmer of them on the horizon.

While the buzz-word nano has been mis-used, overused and overhyped... there are some interesting real-world applications that seem poised on the horizon... like this one:



I read about this a month or two ago... I'm surprised this video has been on the net for years and has so little viewership.

You're looking at the world's smallest radio.

A single carbon nanotube that acts as receiver, modulator and amplifier all in one. All it needs is a power source and a speaker.

It's a single strand of carbon, doing the job of a bunch of microchips... stuff like this helps bring us incrementally closer to actually achieving true nanotechnology... nanobots, nanoscopic machines, etcetera...

 

[sumbrownkid]

Knowledge is always a blessing. It's how we use that knowledge is where the responsibility lies.

 

[Dotini]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/12/AR2010011203259.html

Here is an article that says native US bees are close to extinction. Evidently the fault may lie with diseases brought about by commercially raised bees.

I suppose it has to be reiterated that if we humans don't fight the future that is unfolding, then we deserve to die and go extinct.

 

[FoolKiller]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/12/AR2010011203259.html

Here is an article that says native US bees are close to extinction. Evidently the fault may lie with diseases brought about by commercially raised bees.

I suppose it has to be reiterated that if we humans don't fight the future that is unfolding, then we deserve to die and go extinct.

So, bees are going the way of cattle? I fail to see the problem. Now, if we can just tame wasps and hornets, killing off all those wild sting-happy ones too.

 

[Dotini]

A significant percentage of crops in the US are pollinated by bees.

 

[FoolKiller]

A significant percentage of crops in the US are pollinated by bees.

Which is why I know a few local farmers that raise them and sell their honey along side their produce at the farmer's market. Plus, local honey available in every region is actually a good thing as it can supposedly help with allergies.

Similarly, I know farmers that rotate crop land and cattle fields to keep the soil fertile decades and centuries after it has been converted into farmland without having to buy commercial grade fertilizer.

We adapt. One of the great things about the human thirst for knowledge is that we have developed in such a way that we can adjust our behavior to counter balance our negative effects. In the case of the bees, farmers will need to adapt in a way that might actually provide long-term health benefits.

 

[Dotini]

I hope you are right. But hope is not a plan.

Here is a study that indicates the quantity and quality of sperm produced by caucasian men is declining. This is a factor in the loss of population in western European countries.

If you wanted to have children, would you be well satisfied with using sperm donated by a man in Hawaii, and having it implanted in your wife?

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NEWSCIENCE/reproduction/sperm/2003/2003-0519hauseretal.htm

 

[FoolKiller]

I hope you are right. But hope is not a plan.

Which is why I pointed out real-life examples of how we have adapted, not some hopeful wishing of what we may do down the road.

Here is a study that indicates the quantity and quality of sperm produced by caucasian men is declining. This is a factor in the loss of population in western European countries.

If you wanted to have children, would you be well satisfied with using sperm donated by a man in Hawaii, and having it implanted in your wife?

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NEWSCIENCE/reproduction/sperm/2003/2003-0519hauseretal.htm

Good thing PCBs were banned in 1976 in the US and 2001 by the Stockholm Convention.

 

[Dotini]

When are we going to ban nuclear weapons?

"..begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction".

-JFK, January 20, 1961 Inaugural Address

 

[Famine]

When are we going to ban nuclear weapons?

Right around the time it's proven that we can ward off converging balls of rock by shouting loudly at them.

 

[Dotini]

That sounds like the long way of saying never.

Shouldn't the job of supermoderator consist of uttering soothing sounds and putting out the fires in Lilliput?

 

[Famine]

Spoken like someone who's never heard a Yorkshireman speak.


Also, I like fire. Though my court order prevents me from being in possession of any material that may cause one.

 

[Dotini]

Also, I like fire.

I know what you mean by that one, Famine. Most males, surely all those here at GTPlanet, are united in their love of loud noises and stinky smoke, especially those found amongst a snarling pack of racing cars!

Respectfully yours,
Dotini

 

[mafia_boy]

I'm sorry that I'm dragging this back off-topic but this quote pricked my ears up so badly I was compelled to respond.

Eh, I live with Autism, and I'm about to graduate from college. For me, it was just a matter of pushing through certain barriers. wasn't pleasant, but I've had to.

I have to applaud you Jim. It's a real pain to deal with some of the issues that we have to face in this day and age. I'm in the same boat dude (I have Asperger's myself), and unfortunately sometimes that spills out on this forum with some of my reactions. My main problem is that due to it, I can never find a middle ground with things, I'm either 100% quiet or respond to people with full force and have no qualms about it.

Sometimes I want to tell people about it, but my experience has been whenever I have spoken about it, their reaction has been that I have some mental condition like I'm a schizophrenic or something that's not even in the same category. I feel that my son has also inherited these traits from my genetics as he does similar things to what I did as a kid, and can't control himself from being too loud and we keep reminding him to use his "inner voice" because he gets so excited and goes off!

On the plus side it allows me to become super focused when it comes to certain activities to the point that I've blocked the entire world out and have my wife screaming at me before I even acknowledge her. It was the same with my mother too, she had to actually tap me on the shoulder before I realised she was talking to me, yet she had asked me the same question about nine times already because I wanted to finish what I was currently doing and would be consumed by the fact I hadn't finished it yet.

I know many people with "high-functioning Autism," or "Asperger's Syndrome," which is what I have, and many of them have been quite successful in the realm of science and technology. A man who wrote a book titled "look me in the eyes when i'm talking to you" created KISS's famous "Exploding guitars," and owns an exotic car service. Another, an MSN penpal from Sweden, makes some fantastic fantasy addons for Virtual Sailor and Microsoft Train Simulator...unfortunately, some troll has hacked his site, and he's basically said "**** the world, they dont' want my stuff, I won't let them have it." (apologies for the cursing, but I think that describes it well)

There's some others that have been quite successful in the music field as well. Take Craig Nichols from The Vines. The bands music has been quite good over the years. However, back in 2004 he went off at the crowd and called them a pack of sheep and asking if they could say "Baa!" because someone was laughing at him. But his musical genius has produced some phenomenal music.

some humorous observations of myself and other aspies.

1. We all like trains. All of us. I've not yet met an Aspie who doesn't.

For me it's cars. I'm not saying I don't like trains, but I have such a passion for cars and the speeds that they attain that I love them for that reason. My son however is the BIGGEST Thomas The Tank Engine fan around and has an obsession over travelling on trains aswell, he loved travelling on the trains in Sydney.

2. We all need someone in our lives to throw us into the fray. For me, this is mom.

For me, it's the wife.

3. We need the schedule ahead of time. WAY ahead of time. This way, we can prepare ourselves. We don't do spontaneous.

I can SO relate to this. I need to plan stuff, I can't do stuff on the spot. I also get so frustrated and annoyed everytime my wife rearranges the furniture at the house because I have to get used to the new surroundings, and it's worse because she rearranges it every few months!!

4. We all like the way we are, and can't understand why people can't understand us.

Brings me back to my comment about when I talk about it, people think I'm some sort of schizo or something.

5. We laugh, because Rain Man is way worse than most of us.

Gotta get my boxer shorts at Kmart!

6. We have friends. They're just other Aspies.

I must be different in this aspect because my friends aren't other aspies and I've never known another aspie that I've known is an aspie....ever!

7. We like stuff that makes loud noises (Airplanes, Fireworks, Monster Trucks,) but can't stand the actual loud noises.

I can't stand music being too loud, but I have attended raves and stuck my head next to giant subwoofers because I like the music that comes out of it and the atmosphere at the event. Same with car shows....love the atmosphere, but walk away the second a sound-off starts!

8. Many of us identify with animals. A few of us are Furries...but we're too shy to be hardcore Furries.

Yeah, I've always had a kinship with dogs for some unknown reason.

All I can say Jim is thanks dude for speaking out....I feel a lot better after reading what you said dude, it brings comfort to me knowing that there are other people that I could relate to, even if you're 6000 miles away. 👍

Back on topic, I'm currently having a thirst for knowing about the population growth of countries and continents after catastrophic events (such as the 2004 Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina and currently with the devastating earthquake in Haiti) and how this affects the population growth in these areas and the population total as a whole. For instance, I'm curious whether such an event like these would cause a huge population drop many years after the event has occurred and whether it would cause a drop in the total population of the world between censuses of the population....can anyone help me with this??