- 24,005
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
Maybe, but with a full face helmet on your vision to the side is obscured anyway.
The Le Mans General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter arvin charles
- 10,290 comments
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Maybe, but with a full face helmet on your vision to the side is obscured anyway.
- 1,137
It lowers certain risk, you can't deny this. Both Henry Surtees and Dan Wheldon would have survived their accidents if their cars had a closed cockpit. In fact, a week ago Alonso could have been seriously injured when Sergio Perez, who was ahead of him, had a tyre failure at 280km/h. (Not to mention the spa race last year, when Grosjeans car almost beheaded him)
It just saddens me to see how Henry, who was just like 30 days older than me, died because his car had no canopy.
Canopy's/closed cockpits are dangerous too, f.e. preventing the driver from leaving the car after a big accident, deflecting tyres so they fly into grandstands or smoke entering the cockpit. But all those safety questions can be solved, while you will never be able to protect a drivers head from debris or tyres in a open cockpit.
Which car is safer you think in a first corner accident with tyres and suspension pieces flying around and wrecked vehicles going airborne, a Audi/Toyota LMP1 or a F1 car? I would prefer to be in a LMP1 in that situation.
Also, F1 should be the pinnacle of automotive design and engineering. This also includes safety.
- 2,980
- The Ramapo Mountains
- jjaisli
While I don't specifically disagree that there are some clear and obvious safety benefits to closed cockpits vs open cockpits, one could also conclude, by that same line of thinking, that any and all motorcycle activity, both on the road and on the track, should be banned, for much the same reason. Where do we draw the line? By and large, a modern, open cockpit LMP car is much safer than a closed cockpit LMP car from a few generations ago.
- 1,137
And every 10 year old VW Golf is safer than Rudi Caracciolas W125 Mercedes from the 30s.
You should never draw the line when we talk about safety. Not just the drivers risk their lives, Fans on the grandstands, Marshalls, Teammembers working in the pitlane and the filming crew around the track are in danger too.
If you can avoid accidents as last sundays one with Webbers tyre and the Guy with the camera, why not. It won't ruin racing for anyone if you force everyone in the pitlane to wear helmets during the race and ban teams from manipulating/"tuning" their tools.
You should never draw the line when we talk about safety. Not just the drivers risk their lives, Fans on the grandstands, Marshalls, Teammembers working in the pitlane and the filming crew around the track are in danger too.
If you can avoid accidents as last sundays one with Webbers tyre and the Guy with the camera, why not. It won't ruin racing for anyone if you force everyone in the pitlane to wear helmets during the race and ban teams from manipulating/"tuning" their tools.
01GTP
Premium
- 3,345
- East Canaan, CT
- GTP_01GTP
I chose to never drive a motorcycle on the road at a very young age because it has no shell around me.
It is for my safety that I chose that because I think the road is very dangerous.
Safety on a track is relative and as you stated, becoming safer all the time.
All NASCAR pit crews have to wear helmets if they are to jump the wall and work on the car.
I think there could be more done to protect others (maybe helmets too) that are standing behind the walls.
But like the motorcycle on the road I/you have to make a decision on what you perceive may or may not be safe.
- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
I'm not sure thats completely true, in Henry's case the wheel that hit him came from the side, not the front. While it certainly would have had a different outcome, I'd be interested to see the effects of a wheel fired at the side of a canopy, rather than head-on.
- 2,980
- The Ramapo Mountains
- jjaisli
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Safety should be paramount. And we should always be looking ahead to make the tracks and drivers (and team members) safer. I'm old enough to remember the days when there was no pitlane speed limit at F1 races. Just 20 years ago, you had crew members changing tires while cars were flying by at 180-kmh less than a meter from their backside. Pure madness. And it's amazing that more crew weren't killed in the pits.
That said, are open cockpit LMP cars really so much more dangerous than closed cockpit LMP cars? During the last 40 years, 5 drivers have died at Le Mans. Only one was in an open cockpit car. Something to consider. Again, I'm not really disputing the point that there are obvious safety advantages to closed cockpit cars. But there are disadvantages as well. I remember when Risi was running the Maserati MC12. It seemed like that car was a turning in on another car almost every race. The drivers, in their defense, complained that visibility out of that car was horrible. So you can also ask, how many potential accident could be avoided if the drivers simply had better visibility, something an open cockpit offers.
I actually used to ride a Honda CBR600 (between 1992 & 1994). But two close calls and one high side in less than a month and I decided my 2 wheel days were behind me.
- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
Furinkazen
So if this is true, Porsche, Audi, HPD, and Toyota will send their cars to America to be second bill to the IZOD IndyCar series..really? What events will they be able to race? All prestigious American races are taken. They could run rovals when IndyCar is at an oval and lower end tracks that don't make USCR cut. Not much incentive there. I'll believe it when I see it.
- 9
- Albany, NY
It is a fire breathing Kia!
Someone asked earlier in this thread about the TRG Aston Martins.
I talked to a TRG team member at the local Dunkin Donuts and this is what he told me.
They were actually at Lime Rock this weekend.
They are the 2 cars that TRG is running in the World Challenge events.
I was walking through the paddock between the World Challengeand ALMS racse and I spotted what looked like a GT3 spec Aston Martin at the TRG trailer parked behind their World Challenge cars.
freshseth83
(Banned)
- 8,246
- freshseth83
Old news? The rumors came about at Lime Rock, that happened 3 days ago. You consider that old news? Ganassi and Penske don't have ties to European series. 
- 5,551
- Controls set for heart of sun
- GTP_RogerTheHors
Hmm... The main hitch with the whole "Penske running a Porsche" thing is that I'm pretty certain Porsche said they weren't going to be selling the new LMP1 car to privateers; although Penske, may, of course, run a semi-works car on lease from Porsche in the WEC. Outside the WEC? Where would the car run? I doubt we're going to be seeing LMP1s running in any US series for the foreseeable future, and I can't see it as being either feasible nor wise to try starting another major sports car racing series in the US, particularly if it's one which only caters to the most expensive sports prototypes out there.
On the other side of the coin, Penske ran Porsche's LMP2 ALMS programme as a semi-works squad, so a Penske-Porsche partnership really doesn't surprise me as an idea.
On the other side of the coin, Penske ran Porsche's LMP2 ALMS programme as a semi-works squad, so a Penske-Porsche partnership really doesn't surprise me as an idea.
- 1,137
Very good point, I have to aggree. For canopies to become standard, they need first be engineered for automotive use. That video I posted earlier used a fighter jet canopy, if Henry Surtees had such one, the tyre would have hit it and gone airborne again after this, thus putting lives of marshalls, camera mans and fans under risk. So you have to find a solution to dangers as this first. Thats the reason why I want FIA to force canopies upon F1 teams. F1 teams are the richest teams in motorsport, they have the best facilities and best engineers, Im sure they can do this.
Very good point, but I think LeMans is a special case. Most cars are closed cockpit cars, are there any statistics about the closed/open cockpit ratio in LeMans?
In F1 the biggest dangers for years now are head injuries caused by debris or flying tyres. IMO F1 is continuing a very dangerous path. In recent years, we had some very close moments and have been very lucky that nobody lost his live so far (Kubica Montreal 2007, Massa Hungary 2009, Webber/Kovalainen Valencia 2011, Grosjean/Alonso Spa 2012, Alonso/Perez Silverstone 2013).
Motorsport is just crazy. Anyone remembering McNishs crash at LeMans 2011? I still can't believe how nobody got seriously hurt after this. I just hope our luck never fades.
- 3,019
- Essex
Motorsport is and always will be on a very fine edge though. No matter how many precautions taken cars travelling 200+ (well even 100+) will be dangerous. I think the argument against the canopies for F1 cars was because it takes away from the single seater ways of things but I personally think thats a silly reason. In my opinion closed top cars will always be safer than open top cars.
Although most accidents are fairly easily explained and preventable there will always be some that just come down to bad timing and bad luck.
Although most accidents are fairly easily explained and preventable there will always be some that just come down to bad timing and bad luck.
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- 7,938
- LMSCorvetteGT2's Mom's House
- GTP_LancerEvo7
For this year's race:
LMP1:
7 Closed (3 Audi R18, 2 Toyota TS030, 2 Lola B12/60)
1 Open (1 HPD ARX-03c)
LMP2:
4 Closed (2 Lola B12/80, 2 Lotus T128)
18 Open (1 Lola B11/40, 1 Alpine A450, 1 HPD ARX-03b, 3 Zytek Z11SN 5 Morgan LMP2, 7 Oreca 03)
- 5,551
- Controls set for heart of sun
- GTP_RogerTheHors
I know this might sound like a stupid question, but may I ask, who is going to be running the Porsche's next year anyway?
The works Audi's are actually run by Joest, and the works Toyota's by Oreca. Could it be that Penske will run the works LMP1 Porsche's? I am aware that Manthey are running the works 991s this year, but Manthey are a GT team, so I'm wondering if they're making the step up to prototypes or if Porsche are getting someone else to do it or doing it themselves?
The works Audi's are actually run by Joest, and the works Toyota's by Oreca. Could it be that Penske will run the works LMP1 Porsche's? I am aware that Manthey are running the works 991s this year, but Manthey are a GT team, so I'm wondering if they're making the step up to prototypes or if Porsche are getting someone else to do it or doing it themselves?
- 35,468
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
Not too sure because I don't recall Penske being so intent on seeking to be back in Sportcars. Would seems abit unexpected but so was Porsche talking to Mark Webber and getting him to join (not to say he's a bad driver, just not the first guy anyone would've thought for the Porsche's LMP effort as everyone before then was debating more on which factory driver would be the ones chosen for it.).
- 3,587
Dyson is adding drivers and shifting their focus toward a P2 program for next year.
freshseth83
(Banned)
- 8,246
- freshseth83
Oreca doesn't run the Toyota's. Only help with the team, strategy and the sort, with some technical insight. Porsche seems to be running their P1 themselves. But Porsche has always been known for customer programs.
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/alms-dyson-adjusts-driver-lineup-plans-for-2014/ according to this the WEC and LeMans are in Dyson's team interests.
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- 2,980
- The Ramapo Mountains
- jjaisli
I can tell you that I personally spoke to Chris Dyson in the paddock at Lime Rock. He was very open and confirmed that he hoped to run more rounds in the WEC as a driver and talked enthusiastically about Silverstone and Spa. While I would love to see it happen, he made no mention of forming a team effort. He was very clear that the team's current focus was on putting together a P2 program in the USCR for 2014 and I very much doubt that they have the resources to do both.
As a team, Dyson ran in the ALMS for 12 years. Not once during that time did they ever make an effort to run Le Mans. It would surprise me a great deal if it happened any time soon.
freshseth83
(Banned)
- 8,246
- freshseth83
He also expressed dissappointment that he couldnt continue to run p1. What he told you is one thing, but the team's interests seemingly have changed.
01GTP
Premium
- 3,345
- East Canaan, CT
- GTP_01GTP
As P1 is a 3 year effort, I too would be disappointed it didn't last the three years.
From the article:
I read it as a couple WEC races and a Le Mans 24 entry.
The fact Chris has entered WEC races with a different team isn't a fact that the Dyson team is interested in a full time WEC effort.
As the article states, only a couple races.
And isn't Le Mans on just about everybody's bucket list.
Nothing new there. It's a 3 year old article.
So I read it as Penske wants to go to Le Mans with Porsche, that's all.
He signed a deal to run the Porsche LMP1 car, so that sounds like Le Mans as it can't run in America after this year.
Unfortunately the article is called "P1 Rumours Prevail In North America", not that P1 is to run in America, just that the rumor is from North America, because is was somehow discussed by some credible unnamed source.
The article does not state that it was even discussed at LRP, only the fact that the article surfaced at the same time as the LRP event.
The 2 editors (including North American editor and most likely author of the article) of the article should have spelled words in the American format (rumour/rumor) (programme/program) if we are to believe this article and that it was to be seen/read in America.
All it means to me is that there is P1 interest outside the USA from Penske, and Dyson would like to run Le Mans 24.
The rumors are from America as the title states.
That's how I see it.
Others can read into it what they want.
The Dyson roast was also a great experience at LRP.
Those who attended know what I mean.
- 3,587
"You have to be patient and time it perfectly so you don't lose too much time but also so you don't mess up another team's race."
Wish every P driver thought this way. From Lucas Luhr's race report on Lime Rock.
Wish every P driver thought this way. From Lucas Luhr's race report on Lime Rock.
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