The Le Mans General Discussion Thread

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Just because i'm 14 doesn't mean I can't be educated. This is the correct way to collect data, it's not a "hunch", or an opinion, but the scientific and mathematical standard for data collection. I get annoyed when age becomes a factor of the discussion, as if it makes your points less valid.


If I had a table of data from today, I couldn't use last Tuesday's height if I was asked how far it flew today. Because it's a lie.

You still didn't answer the question that if someone asked you the highest you'd have ever flown the kite.

 

[Bo]

You still didn't answer the question that if someone asked you the highest you'd have ever flown the kite.

But we're discussing how it performed in the race. If they said "what is the absolute highest you've flown a kite at?", come back with last Tuesday's result, if it was highest.

If somebody said "how high did you get the kite today?" (as in what was the race top speed), would you honestly choose data not from that day to prove your point?

I'm repeating myself over and over again. I've given all the facts that can be given.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

But we're discussing how it performed in the race. If they said "what is the absolute highest you've flown a kite at?", come back with last Tuesday's result, if it was highest.

If somebody said "how high did you get the kite today?" (as in what was the race top speed), would you honestly choose data not from that day to prove your point?

I'm repeating myself over and over again. I've given all the facts that can be given.

The fact you claimed to have giving was that the #3 Audi was 20kph slower than the other cars this is factually correct as you posted it on post #6836

Long tail Audi is over 20 kph down on the other low downforce cars.

You did this without any data to back it up, Data is then posted which states other wise yet as soon as this data appears to claim it to be unreliable.

Also race vmax speed was posted as well which again you claimed was unreliable so unless you have a live telemetry data feed coming from all the LMP 1H cars which you can prove then the doors on the left.

 

[Bo]

I was saying the words said by RLM.

Data is then posted which states other wise yet as soon as this data appears to claim it to be unreliable.

It is unreliable. There is no way you can claim race top speeds in comparison to other race top speeds without having the race top speeds to look at.

Answer me this:

Could you give me, as accurate as can be, the race top speeds of a car by looking at the practice top speeds? This is what your posts claim. If all you need is a spread of practice data to get race data, then that's mighty impressive.

The Audi may have been 20kph off on one lap. Doesn't affect every other lap. The car may have reached a certain speed in practice. Doesn't mean you can say that's the speed it achieved in the race.

This is basic stuff. Really basic.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

In order to show race top speeds, the only top speeds which end up meaning anything in terms of results, you can't show practice top speeds. It completely invalidates the data.

Tbh those engineers know exactly what they are doing. They don't arrive at the race track with wrong gear ratios or a wrong setups.
Practice times do not invalidate the data.

 

[Bo]

Tbh those engineers know exactly what they are doing. They don't arrive at the race track with wrong gear ratios or a wrong setups.
Practice times do not invalidate thr data.

I'll put this question to you as well:

Could you give me, as accurate as can be, the race top speeds of a car by looking at the practice top speeds?

The most it could ever do is give a hint at speed. Bringing data that has no bearing on the data being discussed cannot back up your point.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Then answear my question first please:

What makes you think that practice times should not be taken into account in a discussion about the top speeds cars are capable of?

Keep in mind that teams like Audi arrive at the tracks after hours and hours of doing setup and testing work with their super computers and an extensive backlog of race data from previous years. Friday practicing is used to optimize the setup they worked out at the factory.


In fact, speed traps from races are less reliable. You have to take into account things like traffic, car issues and more importantly that no car runs even close to its max performance in race.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Could you give me, as accurate as can be, the race top speeds of a car by looking at the practice top speeds? This is what your posts claim. If all you need is a spread of practice data to get race data, then that's mighty impressive.

The Audi may have been 20kph off on one lap. Doesn't affect every other lap. The car may have reached a certain speed in practice. Doesn't mean you can say that's the speed it achieved in the race.

This is basic stuff. Really basic.

I never claimed that at all as i was discussing the top speed of the car overall although unless you noticed that race data between the fastest car there the porsche and the #3 audi was during the race and there wasn't a 20kph difference why can't you just accept that it isn't actually that much slower (4mph compared to the porsche and 2mph compared to the toyota) isn't a huge difference and doesn't mean that it's and i quote you "crap" in a straight line.

 

[Bo]

I never claimed that at all as i was discussing the top speed of the car overall although unless you noticed that race data between the fastest car there the porsche and the #3 audi was during the race and there wasn't a 20kph difference why can't you just accept that it isn't actually that much slower (4mph compared to the porsche and 2mph compared to the toyota) isn't a huge difference and doesn't mean that it's and i quote you "crap" in a straight line.

You ended up posting a big pile of data straight from the race. They're comparable. They're the only things which can show what top speed it achieved in the race.

I can accept it wasn't that much slower. At one time in the 6 hour race, the Audi was 4mph off the Porsche. That doesn't stop it being left for dead like this (4:35):



I don't need data to show me that the Porsche pulled away from it at a rapid rate.

To stop pulling this off topic, we'll say that the Audi may or may not have been 20 off the others during the race at one point. All I was doing was quoting RLM. I'm sure they have lots of data to look at that showed that at one point, it was 20 off.

And overall, the Audi is still the slowest P1 Hy.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

You ended up posting a big pile of data straight from the race. They're comparable. They're the only things which can show what top speed it achieved in the race.

I can accept it wasn't that much slower. At one time in the 6 hour race, the Audi was 4mph off the Porsche. That doesn't stop it being left for dead like this (4:35):


I don't need data to show me that the Porsche pulled away from it at a rapid rate.

Someone else wanna show him where he's went wrong with this post.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

I don't need data to show me that the Porsche pulled away from it at a rapid rate.

I am quite sure you also noticed how the Audi closed the gap to the Porsche in Pouhon and Fagnes during corner entry and corner exit.

 

[Bo]

I am quite sure you also noticed how the Audi closed the gap to the Porsche in Pouhon and Fagnes during corner entry and corner exit.

That doesn't make it fast in a straight line.

Someone else wanna show him where he's went wrong with this post.

Can you answer me the question I asked you before?

Could you give me, as accurate as can be, the race top speeds of a car by looking at the practice top speeds?

According to you, you can compare practice and race data to give a good view of the race. Do you know if they aren't completely anomalous?

 

[alonsof1fan91]

That doesn't make it fast in a straight line.

Yes, but maybe slower...

 

[Bo]

Yes, but maybe slower...

Of course it does. I've never argued against this. I'm arguing to say it is slow in a straight line.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

That doesn't make it fast in a straight line.


Can you answer me the question I asked you before?



According to you, you can compare practice and race data to give a good view of the race. Do you know if they aren't completely anomalous?

When the Vmax speeds were posted we were discussing the overall top speeds of the Audi but again you use your evidence by posting something that isn't even comparable.

 

[Bo]

I never said it didn't reach the top speed. You're putting new things into my mouth as we go along.

I made a claim about the race top speed of the Audi in comparison to the others. You tried to prove me wrong by showing some practice speeds against some race speeds. That makes no sense.

EDIT - Wait, did you think I was saying that the data was unreliable when just looking at what the cars achieved over the whole weekend? It's only unreliable if you're trying to use it to show race top speeds, that I was referring to, and I was sure everyone else was.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I never said it didn't reach the top speed. You're putting new things into my mouth as we go along.

I made a claim about the race top speed of the Audi in comparison to the others. You tried to prove me wrong by showing some practice speeds against some race speeds. That makes no sense.

To then prove your point you then post a video showing the #2 Audi when we are discussing the #3 Audi.

Now i dunno about you but i can tell the difference between numbers and if you can't them i'm worried about the current state of our education system.

 

[Com Fox]

I personally believe Audi will turn it around. Also, they have proved on a few occasions that speed doesn't always win at le mans. They have a month to improve their car which I'll admit is a bit lacking before the race, they just have to ☆★☆BELIEVE☆★☆ .

 

[Bo]

See my edit:

Did you think I was saying that the data was unreliable when just looking at what the cars achieved over the whole weekend? It's only unreliable if you're trying to use it to show race top speeds, that I was referring to, and I was sure everyone else was.

I personally believe Audi will turn it around. Also, they have proved on a few occasions that speed doesn't always win at le mans. They have a month to improve their car which I'll admit is a bit lacking before the race, they just have to ☆★☆BELIEVE☆★☆ .

They'll definitely be hard at work. Toyota's Achilles heel was always reliability, and they seem to have nailed that.

To then prove your point you then post a video showing the #2 Audi when we are discussing the #3 Audi.

Now i dunno about you but i can tell the difference between numbers and if you can't them i'm worried about the current state of our education system.

If you think that one top speed, one number, prevents a car from going slower in the rest of the race, I don't know what to believe anymore.

I didn't say that was the #3's average top speed, or overall fastest recorded, I just said exactly what RLM said - on one lap, of a 6 hour race, the #3 Audi was 20kph off.

 

[Com Fox]

Any source of Toyotas heel being reliability?

 

[Bo]

Any source of Toyotas heel being reliability?

Like the Bahrain 1-2 they were on for, and then one of them conked out.
Or China(?) where they had the suspension failure.
They've just been mega inconsistent in the past few years. This year they look a little more composed and experienced.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Your example might be poor picked because Audi is only allowed to output 2MJ while Porsche is alot more. Its more likely that the #20 Porsche deployed its extra energy to pull away from the Audi so the Audi could not retake its position in the bus stop.

The Audi may not have have the raw pace of the Toyotas yet, but for sure it has the most efficient aerodynamics of them all. To be so much faster in mid speed corners and still so close in top speed...
Audi is still my favorite for LeMans.

 

[Bo]

I know it has 2MJ. It's underpowered. The #1 and #2 were high downforce, so that's why they closed up through the corners.

This year's Le Mans will be the best for years. It'll be absolutely epic to see 3 manufacturers with a good chance each of winning.

 

[Com Fox]

I know it has 2MJ. It's underpowered. The #1 and #2 were high downforce, so that's why they closed up through the corners.

This year's Le Mans will be the best for years. It'll be absolutely epic to see 3 manufacturers with a good chance each of winning.

But before you said that Audis domination will fall.

I am yet to see a source.

 

[Bo]

But before you said that Audis domination will fall.

I am yet to see a source.

2014 - DNF-DNF, 2-5-6

2013 - 1-2, 1-2-3

2012 - 1-3, 1-2-3-4

 

[Com Fox]

. We were talking about Toyota focusing on reliability which you have not shown any source of. Audis lost in Silverstone was mainly due to the weather and the 2nd race was due to Audis lack of top speed according to you. Audi have shown to be capable of surviving an endurance race this weekend.

 

[Bo]

So finishing both races without any issues does not count as being reliable? Right...

And where did I say they weren't capable of racing? I'm getting a bit bored of people claiming I said certain things that they can't show. I said that Audi's dominance was coming to an end. You said prove it, I gave you results. I don't care how the results came about, not dominating is not dominating.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

So finishing both races without any issues does not count as being reliable? Right...

And where did I say they weren't capable of racing? I'm getting a bit bored of people claiming I said certain things that they can't show. I said that Audi's dominance was coming to an end. You said prove it, I gave you results. I don't care how the results came about, not dominating is not dominating.

I showed that you said that the Audi was 20kph slower yet you've still to admit you were wrong because you then claimed the data was unreliable.

 

[Bo]

I showed that you said that the Audi was 20kph slower yet you've still to admit you were wrong because you then claimed the data was unreliable.

But one top speed doesn't say that they weren't 20kph down at one point. It cannot prove me wrong at all.

 

[Com Fox]

I'm getting tired of you repeating the same things other then saying the complete opposite.