The Le Mans General Discussion Thread

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Meh. One can always dream.


Any ideas on Porsche developing a second aero package?

I would think so in preparation for next year, Mulsanne and Racecar Engineer will most likely keep us up to date on it if anything does happen.

 

[Bo]

Their pace so far has been mega. It'll be interesting to see if they'll be the first ones to beat Audi at LM.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

I'm planning on going to next years event. If i do go I'll be going with a friend who has been there before. I have some questions.

As a freelance photographer, I want to get as close to the action as I can. What are the best spots? What areas of the track are restricted? Thanks.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Their pace so far has been mega. It'll be interesting to see if they'll be the first ones to beat Audi at LM.

The best they can do is to be the second ones to do it, since Peugeot beat Audi in the 2009 race (Brabham-Gené-Wurz)

 

[Bo]

The best they can do is to be the second ones to do it, since Peugeot beat Audi in the 2009 race (Brabham-Gené-Wurz)

...In this current battle of Audi/Toyota/Porsche.

 

[Hun200kmh]

If you see it that way, that is over too. Next year it will be Audi/Toyota/Porsche/Nissan.

You might go for a criteria like this: will Poesche be the first to beat Audi at Le Mans in a event both brands enter? Then you'll always be right.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The best they can do is to be the second ones to do it, since Peugeot beat Audi in the 2009 race (Brabham-Gené-Wurz)

What do you not count Bentley? That's not very fair now.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Bentley was a camouflaged / painted green Audi R8 (evolution of the closed top 1999 version).


Regardless of that, we don't need to discuss if "branding" an evolution of an Audi chassis and engine makes a Bentley, because they didn't beat Audi.

Audi didn't race that year.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Peugeot weren't the first to beat them though, BMW also did it in 1999.

 

[catamount39]

Peugeot weren't the first to beat them though, BMW also did it in 1999.

Granted that Audi wasn't...great.

Speaking of BMW, any chance they return with their Z4 GTE/LM?

 

[Bo]

Guise, i'm not an idiot, I know Audi haven't won every Le Mans in history.

I'm talking about the WEC era, where Audi are magic.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Granted that Audi wasn't...great.

Speaking of BMW, any chance they return with their Z4 GTE/LM?

Right now the Z4 GTE isn't suitable for Le Mans, because it lacks top speed.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Bentley was a camouflaged / painted green Audi R8 (evolution of the closed top 1999 version).


Regardless of that, we don't need to discuss if "branding" an evolution of an Audi chassis and engine makes a Bentley, because they didn't beat Audi.

Audi didn't race that year.

No it wasn't.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Yeah the only thing Audi about that Bentley was the engine, some of the mechanics, and a few drivers.

Everything else was just about in-house by Bentley.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Bentley was a camouflaged / painted green Audi R8 (evolution of the closed top 1999 version).


Regardless of that, we don't need to discuss if "branding" an evolution of an Audi chassis and engine makes a Bentley, because they didn't beat Audi.

Audi didn't race that year.

IF you say so, unless you can prove it is nothing but speculation that has been said for years.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Yeah the only thing Audi about that Bentley was the engine, some of the mechanics, and a few drivers.

Everything else was just about in-house by Bentley.

It was only the engine block it shared.

 

[RACECAR]

The only reason people say that is because Bentley is owned by VW like Audi is, nevermind the fact that Bentley was also successful in its own right before Audi came along. As stated, the only elements from Audi are the drivers (two of them exactly), the engine and some mechanics (from Joest if one recalls).

 

[daan]

Both these statements are true.

Bentley beat Audi in 2003 as 2 R8s finished in 3rd and 4th behind the 2 Bentleys.

Bentley didn't beat Audi in 2003 as they were running different classes. (GTP for the Bentley and LMP900 for the R8)

 

[Hun200kmh]

Ok, let me clarify.

1 - Was the Bentley Speed 8 an evolution of the Audi R8C?

I could go down the easy way of saying ... yeah, Same Designer/Engineer; Audi engine; Audi money; Audi drivers; Joest Racing (under the "Team Bentley" banner).

But things are never that simple. Can we say that the Bentley Speed 8 was the successor of the Bentley EXP Speed 8, and that this was the successor of the Audi R8C?

Again, let's hear it from the man that designed them all. I'm acting as a lawyer now so I selected the most relevant passages that are useful to prove my point. Feel free to look for the ones that oppose it most

...
As regards a clean sheet of paper, I’ve been given one of those twice now (once for the ’00 prototype and then for the ’03 car). You still end up using your experience and being influenced by what has gone before. If you look at both those cars in detail then there is virtually no lineage with their immediate predecessor (’99 R8C and ’02 Evo Bentley) but that’s inevitably where I started each time. I suppose there is an evolution on the CAD screen as you go through the detail design which links it all together for the designers but which the rest of the world never sees, so they think “Why did they do that? ”.

...

The prototype ’00 car, the one that never raced, did benefit from the R8C experience, but only in as much as the early car showed us what not to do! Having said that most of the problems with that car were aero related, and although I steered clear of carrying virtually any R8C ideas onto the ’00 prototype, I did reintroduce a number of them, mainly in the suspension, on the ’03 car when nobody was looking. Which rather tended to prove the old adage that you need to understand the root cause of a problem to deal with it satisfactorily!

Full interview (a very interesting one) - http://www.mulsannescorner.com/bentleyelleray.html


2 - Did the Bentley Speed 8 beat Audi at Le Mans?

As daan, I'll provide two possible replies, both correct, but none has to do with classes. "Beating" means "1st place overall, whatever class isn't relevant".

Reply 1 - YES. There were Audi R8 cars racing when Bentley won Le Mans.

Reply 2 - NO. All Audi R8 cars presente that year were run by privateers (Stefan Johansson, Team Goh) , and Joest Racing (usually running the works Audi team), was running the ... Bentleys. Audi Sport didn't show up, hence, it wasn't beaten.

 

[cnd01]

Which is all the more reason to give win statistics to the actual teams rather than the manufacturer funding the team

 

[Bram Turismo]

Yeah the only thing Audi about that Bentley was the engine

So about half of the Bentley was an Audi then.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Bentley was a camouflaged / painted green Audi R8 (evolution of the closed top 1999 version).


Regardless of that, we don't need to discuss if "branding" an evolution of an Audi chassis and engine makes a Bentley, because they didn't beat Audi.

Audi didn't race that year.

Correction. The Works Audi team, Joest, withdrew so they could run the "Bentley" Audi instead. It was Audi's fellow VAG member's third Le Mans and therefore their nominated win year.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Working on a Le Mans Display
Got the base today

Only thing left to add will be the tsm trophy

Rearranged the display a little

 

[ProjectWHaT]

I am unbelievably jealous right now.

 

[chrisjohnson93]

Ok, let me clarify.

1 - Was the Bentley Speed 8 an evolution of the Audi R8C?

I could go down the easy way of saying ... yeah, Same Designer/Engineer; Audi engine; Audi money; Audi drivers; Joest Racing (under the "Team Bentley" banner).

But things are never that simple. Can we say that the Bentley Speed 8 was the successor of the Bentley EXP Speed 8, and that this was the successor of the Audi R8C?

Again, let's hear it from the man that designed them all. I'm acting as a lawyer now so I selected the most relevant passages that are useful to prove my point. Feel free to look for the ones that oppose it most



Full interview (a very interesting one) - http://www.mulsannescorner.com/bentleyelleray.html


2 - Did the Bentley Speed 8 beat Audi at Le Mans?

As daan, I'll provide two possible replies, both correct, but none has to do with classes. "Beating" means "1st place overall, whatever class isn't relevant".

Reply 1 - YES. There were Audi R8 cars racing when Bentley won Le Mans.

Reply 2 - NO. All Audi R8 cars presente that year were run by privateers (Stefan Johansson, Team Goh) , and Joest Racing (usually running the works Audi team), was running the ... Bentleys. Audi Sport didn't show up, hence, it wasn't beaten.

I agree with both replies to part 2 they did beat Audi's but a very weakened Audi at that. Bentley did win the race but they were helped quite a bit to win the race.


Also regarding Le Mans 2003, i've walked past the trophies that they won from the race a few months ago when I had a job interview there. They are kept in a cabinet in the reception area along with the 3rd place trophy from 2001, around a mile from where I live in Crewe.

 

[Amac500]

I don't normally come by this part of the forum, but I'm seeing this Bentley / Audi R8 discussion. Bentley beat Audi but not factory Audi. Also about the cars, there are interesting similarities between the Bentley Speed 8 and the Audi R10 TDI. Interestingly the R10 is almost an open top version of the Speed 8 and the air inlets on the front of the car are almost the same. If I remember correctly te R10 was actually designed by the same person who designed the Speed 8.

Also, I didn't troll the whole forum, but if it hasn't been discussed here the illegal rear wing on the Toyota TS040 at Le Mans?
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/RCELeMans2014.html

 

[Tired Tyres]

Yes it has been mentioned. Toyota were completely open about the wing and it's not illegal. Why? Because there is no test for wing rotation.

When there is a test for wing rotation it will be illegal. Not before.

 

[Amac500]

Well on the other hand active aero is not legal, they just got it through scrutineering.

 

[Azure Flare]

If this remains legal, no doubt that Audi and Porsche are going to bitch about it, right up until they bring out their versions.

Pretty genius in Toyota's part I must say.

 

[tribolik]

The best they can do is to be the second ones to do it, since Peugeot beat Audi in the 2009 race (Brabham-Gené-Wurz)

Third - the first ones where Bentley in 2003(even though it was Audi who provided engine, team staff and drivers to the team)