The Le Mans General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter arvin charles
- 10,290 comments
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- 7,177
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
Spotters in the area I don't think they have but the guys in the pits have in their screens the positions of all cars in the on-screen track map, so I'm sure they were already aware of "slow traffic" in the area, so I agree, it should've been a priority to radio the info to the drivers.
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
Putting that all on the driver is wrong. They can only react so fast traveling at that rate of speed and with the limited vision on that part of the track. There should've been better action taken by race control first and foremost, and a greater effort by the teams to say "hey dude, trouble ahead"
- 25,047
- Somewhere.
Very rarely do conditions change that quickly and it doesn't end in chaos, however. At one point, there's only so much you can do... Remember the Malaysian GP in 2001 and the monsoon? Or even Le Mans in 2003, I believe, when it rained for about 2 minutes, but it rained so hard nearly half the field crashed?
Waving yellow flags to make the drivers aware there's danger ahead is fine and everything, but with the amount of spray from the other cars in this particular situation, you can barely see them in the first place. Radio-ing the drivers and whatnot might help a bit, sure, but at the end, even if you take all the precautions in the world, you just have to hold on for dear life and pray nothing bad happens.
Waving yellow flags to make the drivers aware there's danger ahead is fine and everything, but with the amount of spray from the other cars in this particular situation, you can barely see them in the first place. Radio-ing the drivers and whatnot might help a bit, sure, but at the end, even if you take all the precautions in the world, you just have to hold on for dear life and pray nothing bad happens.
- 15,366
- TRAPPIST-1g
- ProjectWHaT
There should be lights in the cabin indicating yellows and cautions and the new slow zones. The flags they use are barely visible.
- 9,089
- Scotland
You can see here how quickly it changes
- 2,523
- South Florida
- Organ-Donor
This was bad too
- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
Dodge Vipers looking and being back at Le Mans. Yup, DODGE. Not that SRT nonsense 
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114520
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114520
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Dodge Vipers looking and being back at Le Mans. Yup, DODGE. Not that SRT nonsense
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114520
I figured after they settled the whole SRT crap being it's own brand and failing they would try to go back since they didn't pull the cars from Tudor.
- 234
- MLDoom
You would think that after not being able to see, along with the massive amount of water on track someone would exercise some judgement to NOT race and pull into the pits. Unreal!
- 6,361
- Nantes
- P308R
- 9,884
- Carthage, TN
- race_emhard
The red with white stripes on the Viper is cool and all, but I still prefer this one:
Maybe, a Viper or 2 could be entered in WEC and they can have that livery.
Maybe, a Viper or 2 could be entered in WEC and they can have that livery.
- 9,089
- Scotland
- 35,084
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
I don't know what to say. This isn't the first time I've heard this claim and even for a time I thought the Dauers to not really be Porsche's and it isn't something Porsche showcased when they talk about their overall Le Mans victories. I really can't decide though I feel that if it was a works backed effort where money, man power and technology are paying the bills they should get the right to to claim a works win. If the cars were just powered by Porsche and funded solely as a non-Porsche effort then...
Though I feel this could be skewed as a contradiction when certain F1 teams are giving preferable treatment by engine manufactures without being the actual manufacture (IRBR are the Renault works team). Yet outside the engine, and interest of the manufacture to make sure the team does well, the car is all on the constructor. RBR has a massive facility that does all the in house building of the car and testing thus it's clearly and RBR effort. That's just how I see it.
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
It's a lot of grey area for interpretation and depends on who you ask I guess. I'd do it by the actual team. Joest has those 14? (give/take) from Audi and Porsche alike(I think Joest crewed the Bentley that won in 03 as well). Sure it's a factory effort, but Joest are the guys who show up regardless of who Audi or Porsche sends
Great article and interesting food for thought
Great article and interesting food for thought
- 5,551
- Controls set for heart of sun
- GTP_RogerTheHors
I think that that's a silly, sensationalist article; and the writing quality makes it feel a little rushed together.
Why don't we count the Ford GT40s as Lolas? The article never addresses that. The 1994 victory is indisputably Porsche's. Yes, the car was listed as a "Dauer 962 Le Mans", but in reality it was 100% Porsche. I agree, the two TWR-Joest victories are a little more dubious as to whether they are true "Porsche victories", but at the end of the day, a car wont move without an engine, and Audi haven't provided the winning engine to someone else twice.
This is endurance racing. We shouldn't be snarkily trying to look down on people for how many victories they have claimed to take; we should be celebrating every single person who is involved with getting a car to a finish equally, as that is the true achievement here.
Why don't we count the Ford GT40s as Lolas? The article never addresses that. The 1994 victory is indisputably Porsche's. Yes, the car was listed as a "Dauer 962 Le Mans", but in reality it was 100% Porsche. I agree, the two TWR-Joest victories are a little more dubious as to whether they are true "Porsche victories", but at the end of the day, a car wont move without an engine, and Audi haven't provided the winning engine to someone else twice.
This is endurance racing. We shouldn't be snarkily trying to look down on people for how many victories they have claimed to take; we should be celebrating every single person who is involved with getting a car to a finish equally, as that is the true achievement here.
- 7,177
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
Quick change of subject but within "Le Mans General" context. I just became aware of a movie/docummentary called "Speed Merchants" (Imdb link HERE), narrated by Mario Andretti and Vic Elford, about the 1972 equivalent to what nowadays is the WEC.
And I became aware of it because I was discussing Jo Bonnier with a friend and browsing YT about him I found this account of the accident that killed him at Le Mans 1972. It is narrated by Vic Elford and it is touching not because Elford cries or says heart wrenching things but because he doesn't, but you can tell how it was felt by him.
Here. To Mods, I watched and re-watched and I don't think this clip, although obviously about a sad moment in motorsports history, breaks the AUP but if any of you guys in charge think it does, please take it off, with my apologies.
Anyway ... following that one video I came to several videos that are split parts of the entire "Speed Merchants" movie. Here one of them. Really REALLY worth a watch (starts with the build up to Le Mans and why Enzo, fearing humiliation at the hands of Matra, didn't show up).
Of course the video quality of these is terrible, and I'll try to buy this movie if available.
Just thought I should give all fellow motorsports lovers a heads up on this.
PS - Eery how Jo Bonnier's crash is quite similar to Rockenfellers. Same place ... Prototype vs privately entered GT Ferrari. There's a difference though. The Ferrari didn't burn. Rockenfeller survived. Long live the evolution of safety standards in racing.
PPS - Vic Elford was a hero. The way he walked up to a burning Ferrari that might explode any moment is inspiring.
And I became aware of it because I was discussing Jo Bonnier with a friend and browsing YT about him I found this account of the accident that killed him at Le Mans 1972. It is narrated by Vic Elford and it is touching not because Elford cries or says heart wrenching things but because he doesn't, but you can tell how it was felt by him.
Here. To Mods, I watched and re-watched and I don't think this clip, although obviously about a sad moment in motorsports history, breaks the AUP but if any of you guys in charge think it does, please take it off, with my apologies.
Anyway ... following that one video I came to several videos that are split parts of the entire "Speed Merchants" movie. Here one of them. Really REALLY worth a watch (starts with the build up to Le Mans and why Enzo, fearing humiliation at the hands of Matra, didn't show up).
Of course the video quality of these is terrible, and I'll try to buy this movie if available.
Just thought I should give all fellow motorsports lovers a heads up on this.
PS - Eery how Jo Bonnier's crash is quite similar to Rockenfellers. Same place ... Prototype vs privately entered GT Ferrari. There's a difference though. The Ferrari didn't burn. Rockenfeller survived. Long live the evolution of safety standards in racing.
PPS - Vic Elford was a hero. The way he walked up to a burning Ferrari that might explode any moment is inspiring.
- 35,084
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
I don't think they are "trying to look down on people", they are just saying that they believe the number of wins might be exaggerated and they would like for that to be cleared up based on the evidence they found.
- 4,464
- Vancouver, BC
- GTP_Grand_Prix
The Targa Florio segment of "Speed Merchants" is a lovely piece of film making, great narration by Elford in that part as well. It's my favorite part of that documentary. 👍
The prototypes speeding through the town streets, with smiling spectators standing just a few feet away, is amazing stuff to watch.
"There's no other race anywhere just quite like it."
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- 9,089
- Scotland
For those that think the audi is slow, was the fastest at Le Mans with a top speed of 212mph
http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Re...500_Race/Hour 24/15_EventMaxiumSpeed_Race.PDF
http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Re...500_Race/Hour 24/15_EventMaxiumSpeed_Race.PDF
- 9,053
- Murica
- BasedAckbar
Well according to that listing, it's technically a tie between the Audi and the Toyota. Of course they could have just left out some decimals. Anyone know what Toyota did come race day however? The fastest speed for them is from free practice.
- 10,269
- Bonn
- GTAce
The Toyota hit 345+ kph a couple of times, although not on the official measuring points.
I have never seen the Audi topping 340 once (on screen telemetry).
The ACO doesn't like this though, they want the cars to be at 330 max.
Tired Tyres
Premium
- 12,510
- West Yorkshire
- Tired_Tyres
- Tired Tyres
In first practice tests both Audi and Toyota did full tank runs. The Audi lap average was one tenth of a second per lap better than Toyota. (According to Paul Truswell.)
Top speeds are not a good indicator of overall speed. Sector times on the other had are.
http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Re...01406141500_Race/Hour 24/23_Analysis_Race.PDF
Top speeds are not a good indicator of overall speed. Sector times on the other had are.
http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Re...01406141500_Race/Hour 24/23_Analysis_Race.PDF
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
I think @Holdenhsvgtsr only pointed it out because certain people during the Spa race (I remember a few e.g. @hsv) seemed pretty keen on some untold knowledge that Audi weren't going to win much less be an equivalent of speed compared to Toyota or even Porsche. All because somehow Spa was a indicator of what 2 weeks of Le Mans prep that hadn't happened yet, and the race itself weren't going to tell us otherwise.
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
All apart from the times I said that anything could happen, Le Mans is always unpredictable, and it was only if the did absolutely zilch with the package they had at the time?
Anyway, congrats to Audi on the win (again... come on Toyota... we can do it next year). They really have these 24 hour races down to a tee. I'm really looking forward to the rest of this WEC season battle.
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- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
You said anything could happen during Le Mans weekend, if you go back and read page 227-230/31 you'll see that you were pretty sure Audi would be a non-threat and so did a few others. You did this because of this over zelous idea of Audi finally being defeated.
You even said when asked by someone why "I've been waiting for this for years" (paraphrase but I can get the direct quote) I know this because I like to argue and book mark peoples quotes and other bit for later. Yes I'm the crazy quote collector of GTP. You now all know my secret
Also like I said earlier, the rest of the year doesn't matter to Audi so it's pretty much what Toyota and Porsche do against one another.
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
Meh. One can always dream.
Any ideas on Porsche developing a second aero package?
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