Tired Tyres
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- Tired_Tyres
- Tired Tyres
The two tyres in the bottom left of the screen during a race.
The nordschleife is horrible in this game
- Thread starter mini_roofer_S
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The two tyres in the bottom left of the screen during a race.
- 430
- yourluvryourzero
Did you bother to read anything past what you bolded? Color changing icons does not mean tire temperature is being modeled in any proper form.
Example...
Many people think it is not modeled properly in F1 2010, which has color chnaging icons just like GT5.
Games on systems back in the day that could in no way shape or form calculate real-time tire temperature had color changing icons as well, but it didn't mean it was being modeled in any accurate way.
Example...
Many people think it is not modeled properly in F1 2010, which has color chnaging icons just like GT5.
Games on systems back in the day that could in no way shape or form calculate real-time tire temperature had color changing icons as well, but it didn't mean it was being modeled in any accurate way.
Tired Tyres
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- Tired_Tyres
- Tired Tyres
So I'm imagining it when I understeer in a corner because I overdid it on the breaks then?
The truth is none of us know how accurate either Shift 2 of GT5 are about the things they display. You can only go on what you feel.
The truth is none of us know how accurate either Shift 2 of GT5 are about the things they display. You can only go on what you feel.
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Well when the tyres are cold I have less grip and when they are warm I have more grip? How is that in anyway different to how the Shift 2 temperature works? And how in any way does that point to "loose approximation"... Ofcourse its a loose approximation, there is not a single sim available that can pull this off without being a loose approximation and Shift 2 is at the bottom of that very long list.
As far as being realstic... Generally I dont judge realism by what happens when I smash into a wall. Do you buy a car and then crash it into a wall to check it out? no you do not. The driving physics are all that really matters for driving and Shift 2 is just too far off, it is simply wrong there is nowhere near enough detail in the tyre model and the result of that is that it feels dead, almost like you steer the car and not turn the tyres.
I disagree with your statements about the weight transfer, it is brilliantly done in GT5, so much so that GT5 feels very close to that of iRacing and I can jump between the two without needing to adjust my driving. GT5's road car and tyre physics on comfort and sports are just fantastic. The cars can be driven properly, throttle control and steering, countersteering and weight transfer to aid driving are all done well. In Shift 2 you have to adjust your driving, you have to drive in an un-natural way, you have to make changes to adapt to physics that behave wrong. Shift 2 is not a simulator, the physics are falling into the catagory of semi-sim down with F1 2010.
You can disagree but that does not make you right, 90% of people have no clue what they are talking about and to be honest I think you fall into that catagory.
- 35
- G33KFR34K66
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And you fall into the 10% who do know what they're talking about because...... you say you do?
Raced karts, driven cars, played all of the major simulators, done some studying of automotive engineering, watched countless documentries on the subject. My dad used to race in rally events (privately, his own mini cooper), was an engineer and skilled mechanic with a massive interest in motorsports, and was the one who got me into sim racing back in the 90s.
I don't understand how someone can have driven a car and then play shift 2 and say "yep that is realistic"... I just dont get it.
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- mini_roofer_S
what the hell does any of the last crap have to do with the norschliefe.
- 35
- G33KFR34K66
- 35
- G33KFR34K66
I will admit that I prefer Nordschleife's modeling in GT5. But I don't think that the "handling characteristics" of Nordschleife in GT5 are realistic. In my opinion in GT5 Nordschleife is very forgiving as you can push as hard as you want without the risk of a serious crash. That somehow doesn't seem right to me...
When I golded the Nordscheife special event in GT5 I was hitting the curbs at full speed and the car was stable! The car was taking off at full speed (pflanzgarten?) and in the landing I easily kept it under control! I had great fun but somehow I had the feeling that the 'game' was cheating, helping me to stay on the road when I should have crashed in order to make me feel as some kind of super-driver (or to show the AMG as some kind of super-supercar? marketing maybe?
). In Shift 2 I must be much more careful and conservative. To keep the car under control I must not hit the curbs violently and I must ease off and loose speed before a jump or else the car will roll or crash. In that aspect I think that Shift's Nordschleife is much more realistic than GT5.
Also... this has never happened to me in GT5. While it has happened many times in Shift 2.
In my opinion Shift 2 teaches you to respect and fear Nordschleife. And for this reason I believe that it is very good version of this challenging track (and in many ways better than GT5's version) even though it isn't as accurate.
When I golded the Nordscheife special event in GT5 I was hitting the curbs at full speed and the car was stable! The car was taking off at full speed (pflanzgarten?) and in the landing I easily kept it under control! I had great fun but somehow I had the feeling that the 'game' was cheating, helping me to stay on the road when I should have crashed in order to make me feel as some kind of super-driver (or to show the AMG as some kind of super-supercar? marketing maybe?
). In Shift 2 I must be much more careful and conservative. To keep the car under control I must not hit the curbs violently and I must ease off and loose speed before a jump or else the car will roll or crash. In that aspect I think that Shift's Nordschleife is much more realistic than GT5.Also... this has never happened to me in GT5. While it has happened many times in Shift 2.
In my opinion Shift 2 teaches you to respect and fear Nordschleife. And for this reason I believe that it is very good version of this challenging track (and in many ways better than GT5's version) even though it isn't as accurate.
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- yourluvryourzero
In Forza and Shift 2 for example, you can view the exact temp readout of the three sections of each tire, while racing. They also break it up between three sections per tire. That is a much closer approximation than what you get in GT5. GT5 does not even show the tire temp readout or separate sections of the tire for temp, just an overall color.
As for tire modeling, let me know when it is possible to pop a tire in GT5. Where is the friction readout as in Forza or Shift. Hard to judge something as better when it is completely hidden, almost like they have something to hide.
About weight transfer, again jerk the wheel side to side or drive reckless in GT5. The worst, you'll spin...
Jerk the wheel, hit kerbs wrong, or drive reckless like that in Shift, iracing, GTR2, or real life, the car would most likely rollover.
Something which easily happens in your beloved iracing, but hardly ever happens in GT5 (and you say GT5 has accurate weight transfer and feels very close to iracing).
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As for the tire-modeling in Shift 2 and GT5 that's what I think:
Both games (as all games) use an approximation and obviously this approximation isn't perfect (as in all games/sims). But while Shift 2 approximates the forces/temperature/deformation of the tire (psysical simulation), GT5 tries to approximate the 'feeling' of the car as a whole (therefore 'tire modeling' is actually non-existant in GT5). And in my opinion that's why GT5 sometimes feels very realistic and other times (like when your hit the curbs, when you land after a jump, when you are abusing understeer) it feels unrealistic and very forgiving.
I know that for a game that wants to provide a simulation experience I prefer Shift 2's model (or any game with a physical model) because it's a physical simulation and not someone's idea of how a car should 'feel'.
Both games (as all games) use an approximation and obviously this approximation isn't perfect (as in all games/sims). But while Shift 2 approximates the forces/temperature/deformation of the tire (psysical simulation), GT5 tries to approximate the 'feeling' of the car as a whole (therefore 'tire modeling' is actually non-existant in GT5). And in my opinion that's why GT5 sometimes feels very realistic and other times (like when your hit the curbs, when you land after a jump, when you are abusing understeer) it feels unrealistic and very forgiving.
I know that for a game that wants to provide a simulation experience I prefer Shift 2's model (or any game with a physical model) because it's a physical simulation and not someone's idea of how a car should 'feel'.
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Zer0
(Banned)
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I am going to the 'ring again in 10 days. I will try to post a replay of my actual laps compared to both Shift 2 and GT5. Tire wear is not an issue for street tires people, a few laps won't have you sliding all over the track from loss of traction.
In my opinion, neither game gets the 'ring right, although GT5 is closer. Also, they are just games, and neither completely "simulate" actual driving/racing.
In my opinion, neither game gets the 'ring right, although GT5 is closer. Also, they are just games, and neither completely "simulate" actual driving/racing.
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I think we just view realism and physics in completely different areas.
I am talking about how cars react to driving input, the way they feel to drive and the grip on the road, understeer and oversteer mechanics, traction and slip.
You're more into crashing into walls, rolling your car over, blowing up tyres etc. These things to me mean nothing (though it has to be said i have rolled a few cars in GT5 offline, the Shelby Cobra is very easy to roll) as i rarely (if ever) get myself into a situation where these would happen, my experiences lie solely on the driving experience. I saw the tyre guages in game in Shift 2 and i thought "yeah that looks cool" and turned it off, it does not help me in the slightest, the small colour guage to see tyre heat and tyre load works fine and the effects of it in the game seem as clear as day to me in GT5 and reminds me of my Rfactor racing days.
GT5 Weaknesses : The game is way too forgiving with driving over curbs, i am well aware of this that can be abused but having learned to drive the Nordschleife on Rfactor (well first GT4 but later Rfactor) i got very scared of the curbs and i drive it as such in GT5.
The main difference is that in GT5 if you use it as a simulator and you do not abuse mechanics then it can do the job, the tyres will react properly and driving techniques will work. In Shift 2 you cannot get that same thing, yeah sure you can pop tyres, and the curbs are more punishing than GT5's (which is a good thing to an extent) and yes the damage model is better (though the crashing physics are far off).... But in the end of it all, can you drive it like a real car and use real techniques? no, and can you feel the tyres and their movement through a whole corner? no you cant. The driving model in Shift 2 is quite terrible (as a sim) and that is my (and many others) problem with it.
Is it GT5 a simulator in the sense that the cars react properly to being smashed about and abused in a way they were not intended? no it is definitely not. But then Shift 2 gets a lot of those things wrong too, especially with how over dramatic it tries to be. Even iRacing gets it wrong, every crash results in a bent steering column, doesnt matter what you do you can usually drive off from it in some shape, but iRacing gets the driving model almost spot on, it is the best all-rounder Sim without a doubt. Shift 2 and iRacing have this "tiny bump/rub smashes your car off the track" effect which is massively unrealistic in many cases, though it does promote cleaner racing than GT5's tank cars that can take massive shunts and stay straight (which is also unrealistic obviously)
The big thing for me is that if you drive in a real car, and race it you can then jump into GT5 and use those same techniques and feel the car (to an extent) enough to drive it in a very similar way, you can then jump onto iRacing or LFS or Netkar and drive in a similar way without needing to change your style. But if you try to drive in that way on Shift 2 you cannot.
And that for me is the biggest factor.
Is GT5 perfect and does it feel just like a real car? Hell no but then neither does any other sim, they are all miles away from the experience of actually driving a car, but its down to who gets closest. GT5 has the issue with it feeling a tad too understeery at times, sometimes power oversteer is too dramatic, there is a long list of things it gets wrong but the list (and the importance of some of the bad factors on that list) for Shift 2 is longer.
I am talking about how cars react to driving input, the way they feel to drive and the grip on the road, understeer and oversteer mechanics, traction and slip.
You're more into crashing into walls, rolling your car over, blowing up tyres etc. These things to me mean nothing (though it has to be said i have rolled a few cars in GT5 offline, the Shelby Cobra is very easy to roll) as i rarely (if ever) get myself into a situation where these would happen, my experiences lie solely on the driving experience. I saw the tyre guages in game in Shift 2 and i thought "yeah that looks cool" and turned it off, it does not help me in the slightest, the small colour guage to see tyre heat and tyre load works fine and the effects of it in the game seem as clear as day to me in GT5 and reminds me of my Rfactor racing days.
GT5 Weaknesses : The game is way too forgiving with driving over curbs, i am well aware of this that can be abused but having learned to drive the Nordschleife on Rfactor (well first GT4 but later Rfactor) i got very scared of the curbs and i drive it as such in GT5.
The main difference is that in GT5 if you use it as a simulator and you do not abuse mechanics then it can do the job, the tyres will react properly and driving techniques will work. In Shift 2 you cannot get that same thing, yeah sure you can pop tyres, and the curbs are more punishing than GT5's (which is a good thing to an extent) and yes the damage model is better (though the crashing physics are far off).... But in the end of it all, can you drive it like a real car and use real techniques? no, and can you feel the tyres and their movement through a whole corner? no you cant. The driving model in Shift 2 is quite terrible (as a sim) and that is my (and many others) problem with it.
Is it GT5 a simulator in the sense that the cars react properly to being smashed about and abused in a way they were not intended? no it is definitely not. But then Shift 2 gets a lot of those things wrong too, especially with how over dramatic it tries to be. Even iRacing gets it wrong, every crash results in a bent steering column, doesnt matter what you do you can usually drive off from it in some shape, but iRacing gets the driving model almost spot on, it is the best all-rounder Sim without a doubt. Shift 2 and iRacing have this "tiny bump/rub smashes your car off the track" effect which is massively unrealistic in many cases, though it does promote cleaner racing than GT5's tank cars that can take massive shunts and stay straight (which is also unrealistic obviously)
The big thing for me is that if you drive in a real car, and race it you can then jump into GT5 and use those same techniques and feel the car (to an extent) enough to drive it in a very similar way, you can then jump onto iRacing or LFS or Netkar and drive in a similar way without needing to change your style. But if you try to drive in that way on Shift 2 you cannot.
And that for me is the biggest factor.
Is GT5 perfect and does it feel just like a real car? Hell no but then neither does any other sim, they are all miles away from the experience of actually driving a car, but its down to who gets closest. GT5 has the issue with it feeling a tad too understeery at times, sometimes power oversteer is too dramatic, there is a long list of things it gets wrong but the list (and the importance of some of the bad factors on that list) for Shift 2 is longer.
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- yourluvryourzero
For those who say so easily that the Ring in GT5 doesnt look the same...
You can even see that the pumbs on the road are many times the same.
I have yet to find any Shift 2 video that looks the same,(well not surprisingly,with no camber ,pumbs or even the widened road..)and probably wont ever..
You can even see that the pumbs on the road are many times the same.
I have yet to find any Shift 2 video that looks the same,(well not surprisingly,with no camber ,pumbs or even the widened road..)and probably wont ever..
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- 94
- cypher2004
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- G33KFR34K66
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- Australia
- Headsoup_Bob
- Headsoup Bob
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- VIPERGTS01
Yeah, most GT5 premium cars have extra interior viewpoints options in replay.
- 3,232
- Wales
I fail to see how a bunch of cars having massive accidents has anything to do with cars bumping and rubbing, you're on a completely different page again, its always cars (or something) blowing up or crashing and smashing into pieces with you, bumping and rubbing is something that happens in racing all the time without consiquence, hell even in F1 people get away with it now and again, i do rememeber Alonso getting literally speared last year and he just drove off from it, what those videos show me is mostly cars crashing from their own mistakes, or massive contact incidents... its a completely different situation. I'm not talking about cars crashing into each other or into walls, i am talking about cars touching each other at equal speeds.
In iracing you can be following someone at 60mph, and litterally rub them with the slightest of pressure and they will spin off, fishtail or just go off track. It is unrealistic, because if you watch motorsport you will see people get away with this and much more all the time without wrecking their cars. I think most of the iRacing community agrees that it is unrealistic and the only reason it has not changed is because it helps promote safer driving, but realistic it is not.
So far your view on realistic driving physics = What happens when you crash into something, how easy is it to roll the car over, can you blow up a tyre.
Your view on realistic car contact is = What happens when you crash into another car.
Its like you're blind to anything other than what happens when you smash your car, perhaps what you're looking for is a destruction derby game, not a driving sim.
In iracing you can be following someone at 60mph, and litterally rub them with the slightest of pressure and they will spin off, fishtail or just go off track. It is unrealistic, because if you watch motorsport you will see people get away with this and much more all the time without wrecking their cars. I think most of the iRacing community agrees that it is unrealistic and the only reason it has not changed is because it helps promote safer driving, but realistic it is not.
So far your view on realistic driving physics = What happens when you crash into something, how easy is it to roll the car over, can you blow up a tyre.
Your view on realistic car contact is = What happens when you crash into another car.
Its like you're blind to anything other than what happens when you smash your car, perhaps what you're looking for is a destruction derby game, not a driving sim.
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@Bigbazz
I believe that racing is pushing your self and your car as much as you can in order to be as fast as possible and not have a crash. That's why in racing you see drivers easing off when they are in the lead, planning their passes so that they don't end up crashing or sliding of the track, putting pressure on other drivers to force them do a mistake etc. In my opinion the consequences of the mistakes you may do under pressure is what shapes racing! Take away these consequences and you are not simulating racing anymore!
GT5 may simulate driving but it doesn't simulate properly the consequences of your mistakes during racing! Therefore you are allowed (and encouraged) to be reckless! That's why I think that racing in GT5 is awful and completely unrealistic!
Personally I doubt that GT5 is even a very accurate driving simulation. Things like the unrealistic car stability when the car is riding curbs or landing, the way you can abuse understeer, the handbrake-cheat, confusing tire selection and lack of customisable tire pressure etc allow you to push the car much harder than it should be possible. Therefore the way you are allowed (and forced to drive if you want gold in special events) in challenging and dangerous tracks like Nordschleife is not realistic!
As I have said from my experience GT5 is an approximation of how a car should feel and not a physical simulation! Sometimes it feels great and realistic and other times it fails miserably and the car behaves like it's on rails!
I believe that racing is pushing your self and your car as much as you can in order to be as fast as possible and not have a crash. That's why in racing you see drivers easing off when they are in the lead, planning their passes so that they don't end up crashing or sliding of the track, putting pressure on other drivers to force them do a mistake etc. In my opinion the consequences of the mistakes you may do under pressure is what shapes racing! Take away these consequences and you are not simulating racing anymore!
GT5 may simulate driving but it doesn't simulate properly the consequences of your mistakes during racing! Therefore you are allowed (and encouraged) to be reckless! That's why I think that racing in GT5 is awful and completely unrealistic!
Personally I doubt that GT5 is even a very accurate driving simulation. Things like the unrealistic car stability when the car is riding curbs or landing, the way you can abuse understeer, the handbrake-cheat, confusing tire selection and lack of customisable tire pressure etc allow you to push the car much harder than it should be possible. Therefore the way you are allowed (and forced to drive if you want gold in special events) in challenging and dangerous tracks like Nordschleife is not realistic!
As I have said from my experience GT5 is an approximation of how a car should feel and not a physical simulation! Sometimes it feels great and realistic and other times it fails miserably and the car behaves like it's on rails!
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Explain what you mean by abusing understeer and the handbrake cheat, i don't genuinely understand what you mean.
As for GT5, we all know the licencing issues that caused the lack of damage in GT5, for the flaws in GT5s damage/crash system its driving physics are vastly superior to that of Shift 2, and in a driving game my view is that the driving physics are a lot more important than the crash/collision physics.
Look i'm not trying to say that GT5 is perfect, hell i have issues with the game and i have my reasons i still go back to playing Rfactor and iRacing. No sim is perfect, none of them get everything right in the driving model let alone other things. I see it like this, driving is like riding a bike you learn it and then its solid, now in the real world, in go-karts and in cars it is just something very natural. When i jumped into the Sim world with a wheel (i got my wheel in august, prior to that i played with a pad on GTR2 and GT4) it did take some adjusting getting used to the FFB (something that you dont have in real life) and the feel of the cars but once adjusted i noticed that i could use the same driving techniques and style that can be done in the real world.
GT5 came out and i had my issues with the physics but generally I had that same full control over what the car was doing, I could feel the tyres (Sit at a standstill and turn the wheel, you will feel it too) and the road cars felt almost like a power assisted real world road car with the FFB. Now this both left the car feeling similar to a real car, but also with many missing important sensations (forces of gravity etc) that other games modelled through the wheels FFB (Rfactor real feel, Netkar, iRacing). That aside in GT5 I could use those same techniques and driving skills as the real world just as i could in the top PC sims. The brakes in GT5 are not perfect, but a lot of that is perhaps down to the wheel compatibility with the G27's pedals. Making ABS-1 almost a necessity to be competitive is obviously unrealistic if a car is meant to have no ABS but it gives a realstic driving experience as a whole with this small compromise, braking techniques and weight transfer still behave as you would expect.
Shift 2 is missing these aspects, the game compensates for the users inputs in certain cases, its like it attenuates the user control, the FFB system feels not like a real car wheel, and also does not work like FFB in other games (iRacing has the best). The list of things that are not right with the Shift 2 physics are very long, the cars are not modelled correctly and most importantly the game removes the 100% control from the user, giving to many the sensation of the game feeling a little bit dead. Traction control being off still feels like it is on, you can nail the throttle with little consiquence all too often, ABS off still leaves the car too hard to lockup and still behaves like the ABS is generally left on. Countersteering and microadjustements are much less important as the game appears to do much of this for you, or perhaps more likely the physics model may not allow for such situations to occur where a realistic outcome of not countersteering or doing microadjustements can happen.
If the physics allowed absolute full control unaltered, unaided to the user then the game would probably be a lot better.
As far as damage/collision simulation. I know of no game that has got this completely right, true as it is that in GT5 the cars are like tanks and this is unrealistic. iRacing cars can take massive crashes and still drive, the damage model seems to always cause crashes or even small bumps to result in bent steering racks. Crashes should be crashes, but small rubs should be small rubs, have you ever gone bumper to bumper with a car in the real world? I can tell you that rubbing someones bumper doesn't often send them spinning off into a wall.
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Zer0
(Banned)
- 1,624
Shift middle sim/arcade approach below the realism of top console sims was confirmed by the developer, I don't know why people insist of looking at it as a super realistic sim, even more absurd thinking that GT5 is not a SIM or accurate or don't have physics(??) and Shift is the real deal!
There's enought proof of the driving accuracy and realism of GT5, not payed opinions of race drivers in forums, shared driving inputs between top PC sims, realistic drifting physics, etc... there's nothing of that for Shift aside of some people in the forum liking more some details, most of them not related to driving but spectacle.
There's enought proof of the driving accuracy and realism of GT5, not payed opinions of race drivers in forums, shared driving inputs between top PC sims, realistic drifting physics, etc... there's nothing of that for Shift aside of some people in the forum liking more some details, most of them not related to driving but spectacle.
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The front wheels of a car can take a lot of punishment in GT5 (even with skid recovery force off) and yet they still retain a lot of grip. As for the handbrake cheat I am surprised you haven't figured it out. When you feel the car is understeering you can make multiple quick taps of the handbrake and this way you can dial-out the understeer and magically restore neutral behavior of the car!! This is completely unrealistic and in my opinion it shows the inherent flaws within GT5's tire simulation (or lack thereof). Try the same in Shift 2 and you will have a horrible spin!
As for translating "driving techniques and style" of GT5 to the real world, if you ever get to Nordschleife I hope you won't attack the curbs and jumps the way you do in GT5...
Also, have you heard of the term overcorrection? Sometimes when you try to catch oversteer with opposite lock you risk of correcting too much or too fast and the car makes a pendulum motion (like you can see in the previous video) and you loose control. Not once have I overcorrected in GT5 while I had many times in Shift 2. You can catch each and every drift and slide in GT5 with minimum fuss and therefore the game encourages reckless driving! In this way Shift 2 is much more realistic and true-to-life.
I will say it again: GT5 is not a physical simulation, it's "smokes and mirrors", a sometimes convincing approximation of how a car should 'feel' that makes you believe that you are some kind of super-driver!
Shift 2 isn't perfect (actually no simulation is perfect) but at least it is based on a physical model and therefore it is more accurate, more logical and with less 'cheats'. Also it can evolve and become even better in future versions!
And are you seriously thinking that even small speed collision don't have consequences? Even at low speed the forces applied to a car (inertia etc) are enormous! And the results are usually catastrophic! GT5 has easily the worst collision physics (and collisions are part of racing, like it or not) and I can't believe someone is trying to defend them! Anyway, I wouldn't want to ever meet you in the road since you are thinking that collisions don't have big consequences...
@Zer0
The only thing these videos prove is that the track modeling of GT5's Nordschleife is excellent (in my opinion the best there is) while GT5's version of Laguna Seca is horrible! I know cause I have tried it in GT5, just like most GT5 tracks!
Just because GT5 is advertised as the "real driving simulator" doesn't mean it's an accurate simulator. Actually GT5 is in my opinion by far the best GT game since it is the only GT game where the handling resembles a real car. GT4 and GT3 on the other hand were truly horrible as a simulation game, even for the standards of PS2!
Disclaimer: If you are judging and playing GT5 and Shift 2 with a gamepad:
I drive Shift 2 with a wheel (elite mode) and I find it to be an excellent, realistic and a very fun and rewarding simulation. With a gamepad I find Shift 2 to be horrible! GT5 handles much better with a gamepad. But I don't know how you can say with a straight face you can simulate driving and racing with a gamepad...
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On the understeer thing i still don't understand what you mean, as its not something i experience in the game at all, as for the handbrake "cheat" i suppose you think its cheating in real life too? Applying the rear brakes in anyway or form will help remove understeer. Personally to avoid understeer I use trail braking with the neutral brake bias and it more than compensates, the only cars that really need attention to combat understeer are the FF cars which are similar in the real world for obvious reasons.
I disagree about your "smokes and mirrors" theory in that i feel exactly that way about Shift 2. Let me get this straight, Shift 2 is far too easy, far too unforgiving. That is pretty much half of my arguement about the game, i shouldnt be braking world records on tracks I have never driven before, something i have done on Shift 2. Where in other sims i have to work to learn a track and its nuances in order to even get within 2 seconds of the fastest guys, to get to world record pace I should need to spend countless hours of analysing and practicing. In Shift 2 it just feels like i jump in the car, floor the throttle and point and squirt my way around the track, its childs play.
I have to make myself clear here, you appear to have not read my previous posts, so i feel like i am repeating myself a lot. As far as overcorrection, sure that can happen but thats completely different to what is happening in Shift 2. The only time I am guilty of overcorrecting is if I countersteer while riding around a banked corner, where the angle of the bank and the forces on the car can often cause the car to correct itself, and countersteering there can result in a spin slingshot in the other direction, this situation is not what i am talking about.
Shift 2 is not a simulator, it was not never meant to be one, everybody in the know, people who have raced in real life, guys who drive the real simulators and guys who run track days, everybody who has some idea about this has all agreed that Shift 2 is a good game but a terrible simulator.
You can argue this all you want, and compare it to GT5, but regardless of what you think GT5 is it still does not make Shift 2 a simulator.
As far as i am concerned it does not fall under the catagory of sim, and only recently since some people have taken a liking to it has the notion even been thrown about of Shift 2 being a sim. You do not have full control over the cars in Shift 2, and im sorry but that is just a fact, not a speculation or an opinion.
As for the Laguna Seca in GT5, it is a reskinned version of the 2004 Laguna Seca from GT4, where as the Laguna Seca in Shift 2 is a more recent version (2009/2010 perhaps?), i've not driven it in Shift 2 enough to form an opinion. But i can tell you that doing the Endurance event in GT5 at Laguna Seca directly attributed to me then being able to run faster at the track in iRacing (which i believe is the 2008 version of the track).
On a final note : Every arguement with some guy moaning about the physics in Shift 2 seems to end up in a bunch of Shift 2 fans basically saying "learn to play"..... I don't know how you read into it like this but a large majority of us complaining are actually very good at the game, find the game easy and are complaining about the lack of realistic challenge and user control within the driving model. I'm not moaning that i am finding it hard, quite the opposite.
I disagree about your "smokes and mirrors" theory in that i feel exactly that way about Shift 2. Let me get this straight, Shift 2 is far too easy, far too unforgiving. That is pretty much half of my arguement about the game, i shouldnt be braking world records on tracks I have never driven before, something i have done on Shift 2. Where in other sims i have to work to learn a track and its nuances in order to even get within 2 seconds of the fastest guys, to get to world record pace I should need to spend countless hours of analysing and practicing. In Shift 2 it just feels like i jump in the car, floor the throttle and point and squirt my way around the track, its childs play.
I have to make myself clear here, you appear to have not read my previous posts, so i feel like i am repeating myself a lot. As far as overcorrection, sure that can happen but thats completely different to what is happening in Shift 2. The only time I am guilty of overcorrecting is if I countersteer while riding around a banked corner, where the angle of the bank and the forces on the car can often cause the car to correct itself, and countersteering there can result in a spin slingshot in the other direction, this situation is not what i am talking about.
Shift 2 is not a simulator, it was not never meant to be one, everybody in the know, people who have raced in real life, guys who drive the real simulators and guys who run track days, everybody who has some idea about this has all agreed that Shift 2 is a good game but a terrible simulator.
You can argue this all you want, and compare it to GT5, but regardless of what you think GT5 is it still does not make Shift 2 a simulator.
As far as i am concerned it does not fall under the catagory of sim, and only recently since some people have taken a liking to it has the notion even been thrown about of Shift 2 being a sim. You do not have full control over the cars in Shift 2, and im sorry but that is just a fact, not a speculation or an opinion.
As for the Laguna Seca in GT5, it is a reskinned version of the 2004 Laguna Seca from GT4, where as the Laguna Seca in Shift 2 is a more recent version (2009/2010 perhaps?), i've not driven it in Shift 2 enough to form an opinion. But i can tell you that doing the Endurance event in GT5 at Laguna Seca directly attributed to me then being able to run faster at the track in iRacing (which i believe is the 2008 version of the track).
On a final note : Every arguement with some guy moaning about the physics in Shift 2 seems to end up in a bunch of Shift 2 fans basically saying "learn to play"..... I don't know how you read into it like this but a large majority of us complaining are actually very good at the game, find the game easy and are complaining about the lack of realistic challenge and user control within the driving model. I'm not moaning that i am finding it hard, quite the opposite.
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- 430
- yourluvryourzero
You failed to pay close enough attention to see the amount of accidents in those videos that occured from slight bumps.
Yes, sometimes you can get away with bumps, but not always.
In Shift if you control the car after a bump you can sometimes get away with it, while other times you can't.
Are you playing it on the PC or console? Perhaps the horrid lag on the console is affecting that for you...
Also, I'd like to ask if you have even been in or even seen an accident in real life? I mean good lord dude, just look at the chaos from normal driving collisions at low traffic speed on civilian roads.
Hold on,
Don't you find it odd how PD keeps using this excuse? Licensing issue, really, I mean come on PD, we are not stupid (well, apprently some peoaple are). I'd be more inclined to believe it if every other studio was having the same issue, but they are not. Kaz even stated one time (previous GT's) it was actually because the current systems were not powerful enough and if he couldn't make it accurate, he wouldn't include it (not sure why it is in GT5 then seeing as how it's far from accurate). The thing is, PD makes excuses or doesnt covey anything in an understandable manner.
Obvious contradiction?
I call BS!
Do you have the PC version? I'd really like to race you and see this...perhaps you are only driving AWD cars or are not using elite mode.
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Really?
Are you even played GT5 properly on a wheel?I mean with no aids at all?
Totally wrong what you say here cause in my case,on a G27,when i turn too much the wheels actually lose grip,start heating up,and on the extremes even leave skid marks on the tarmac,meaning massive understeering.Its apparent that you say this, because with a gamepad you cant actually do this, it wont let you do it.
Again either you never pushed the car to the limits with no aids on a wheel or you actually say this cause you play with gamepad wich is really easy to correct it.
Overcorrection is a fact on GT5(with a wheel),many times i lost it before i actually learn the techniques required not to do the mistake or what to do after that,wich are the same in RL also...
You keep repeating that and i cant really understand what you mean by that..
Both games, as also ALL sims,are just pixels,zeros and ones.What road are they gonna follow to represent the RL characteristics of car and its behavior on a track,have no meaning,especially in the case of Shift2 wich clearly fails.All the cons you described before for GT5 are actually present on Shift2
No understeer when it should appear, overcorrection is actually kicking in totally randomly plus the massive input lag,the fact i have to start steering before i enter the apex if i want to make it alive,no need in playing with the throttle,just gas,brake,gas,brake and no punisment for this,almost none existent ForceFeedback,you have to fight to keep a car on the straights,a slight touch on someone and youre out for no apparent reason,the over-wobbling suspensions on where they shouldnt,but have no effect actually on the corners,
massive oversteering followed by massive understeering and in the end youre still on the track,and these are the only i can think of now...
And dont even get me started about track accuracy, visually and practically..
Did you checked the videos i and others posted properly?Its not only about visualls but what more importantly,how the cars behave,the pumps on the road,the same techniques the wheel users have to apply to achive the same results...
And lastly,as far as for the collision physics,have you ever played GT5 on a room with pro drivers and full damage? Let my tell you that in a case you do actually a mistake,its over! Your car is greatly damaged(not visually!) meaning you are never gonna catch the others, and if you are lucky enough, make it to the next pitstop to continue the race...
Oh Wait! Shift2 doesnt even have pits! How can you say that it simulates a race if it doesnt even have one of the most apparent things on racing?What it simulates then?
Accurate tracks? No
Accurate physics?No
Pits?No
What then?
Blur effects!
Cool helmet cam!(not more realistic than the other ones)
Banners all over the place!
Extream Cam shaking!
Cool overtuned cars!
Someone screaming on my ear "NOW! GO GO GO!" Thanks i almost forgot it!
And 3D trees!Lol no thanks!Ill take my 2D trees over Shift2 trees, at least they are the same!
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- 229
- Jamesways
Good god, just reading some of these posts...
Look, some people are enjoying Shift 2.
Some people love GT5.
Some people like both.
If you don't like Shift 2 and think it's the crappiest crap that ever was made by man, good for you. You shouldn't have to believe it's your personal mission to try to convice everyone to feel the same way too.
If you're disappointed by GT5, you've got other options.
I'm just glad, as a racing game fan, that I have plenty of choices to play. You can like more than one game and more than one brand you know.
Look, some people are enjoying Shift 2.
Some people love GT5.
Some people like both.
If you don't like Shift 2 and think it's the crappiest crap that ever was made by man, good for you. You shouldn't have to believe it's your personal mission to try to convice everyone to feel the same way too.
If you're disappointed by GT5, you've got other options.
I'm just glad, as a racing game fan, that I have plenty of choices to play. You can like more than one game and more than one brand you know.
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