The "Online Boost" demystified

[P3nT4gR4m]

Swings and roundabouts mate - I got sent into the sandpit on T1 suzuka by some prat in a subaru tonite, went from 1st place to 8th. Boost helped me back into the race. Fortunately there were a couple of spinoffs that allowed me to charge through the pack, eventually taking my righteous win from the scooby by an aggressive (but not punty) overtake through casio on lap3.

Was as if god was on my side!

 

[magburner]

Right, I'm about to eat humble pie here, I have finally noticed the 'online boost' system, but I don't think that it is a boost at all.

I don't know if anyone has already mentioned this, but I think that the 'online boost' is actually a weight penalty. Judging from my experience, it is somewhere in the region of 150kg to 200kg, and here's how I know.

I've been doing some 600pp races with the BMW M3. I had a setup with minimum weight (somewhere around 1400kg), and another setup with a weight of about 1600kg. there was a distinct difference in handling between the two weights, but whilst one setup had more BHP and more weight, the other had less BHP and less weight. I had raced numerous races with both weights, and at the time I spotted the 'online boost', I was racing with around 1600kg. Now zip forward a lap, and some maniac shepherds me off the track, and I'm a 'country mile' behind.

Not being the guy to quit so easily, I decided to press on. Once I had scrubbed the sand off my tires, I noticed that the car was handling very well, very well indeed. It was faster, took the corners better, and handled like a wet dream. When I realised what was going on, I thought my car felt lighter, and it did fee lighter, about 150kg to 200kg lighter! I then did a test run with the car at the lighter weight I used, and BINGO! It handled almost identically. I can Imagine that the effect would be inversed for a guy who was sailing ahead of the pack.

Hmmm... That pie was pretty tasty , but I think there is a little bit more to the whole charade. I had other races with the car on the same track, under identical conditions, with punters shoving me off the track, and I never felt any effect at all. I think that it is a little more believable if the 'online boost' was a weight penalty (as opposed to crappy tires), because it is the sort of thing that happens in real world racing (though not mid race!), and to those experiencing it, it would feel like the car is missing its braking points, accelerating slower, and cornering badly.

 

[Vaxen]

I don't know if anyone has already mentioned this, but I think that the 'online boost' is actually a weight penalty.

I think you could be on to something here. If true, it would be trivial for the programmers to implement, and it does a tidy job of explaining almost all of the anecdotal evidence presented thus far, from changing lap times to differences in TCS to increased grip when in the back to negligible impact on Daytona Oval.

 

[slicecom]

I think you could be on to something here. If true, it would be trivial for the programmers to implement, and it does a tidy job of explaining almost all of the anecdotal evidence presented thus far, from changing lap times to differences in TCS to increased grip when in the back to negligible impact on Daytona Oval.

Yeah, the weight penalty theory sounds pretty plausible.

 

[zodicus]

First of all, a 3% difference is hardly what I would consider "beyond obvious"... seriously. I don't know what games you've played that have real rubber band boost, but even GT3's AI "boost" was more than four times greater than that.

More importantly, again, this is just anecdotal with no proof, nor any reassurance that all possible variables were accounted for when comparing lap times.

Percentages aside 3 sec in a race is a beating. If its so not a big deal or obvious go out there and run 3 sec slower every lap and see where you finish.
I'll admit I probably didn't run my fastest lap free of mistakes but you don't just randomly pull 3 sec out of you're arse without something changing.
I still say if the boost must be there than so be it, but speed up the slower cars don't hurt the faster ones. spinning off in to the dirt just because you're car magically lost grip is so frustrating.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Magburner, you may be on to something regarding a possible weight handicap, as it would account for much of the observations, although based on what I have seen and much of the claims from others, it must still be rather subtle, assuming it exists.

Regardless, it's a well thought out theory that deserves serious consideration. 👍

Percentages aside 3 sec in a race is a beating.

Yet, putting it aside would give you a false result... or are you saying that in an hour long race being several seconds behind is a worse beating than being behind by say five seconds in a five minute race? It has everything to do with the percentages, anything else is meaningless.

 

[gtbadboy]

I played with this all day today and will offer my observations. I don't know as to what that boost "IS" but it does exist.

In a race at suzuka pp600 I ran a 2:16.xxx. Now I'm still out front, pushing and running the same lines as near exact as humanly possible and the next two laps I can't break 2:22.xxx. That's bull$%#@.

I'm not sure if GTP_three03 noticed but in our race we both ran a 2:17.xxx and the last two laps couldn't get it under 2:22.xxx. I would expect the two of us to run a little slower but I intentionally stayed behind him drafting, no b.s. and he's driving some fine lines, and we lose 5 sec.

If they want to help the backmarkers, fine! but don't punish the front runners. In one instance in yet another race I was drafting three03 heading for the last chicane when all grip from my car disappears and I'm floating, almost felt like a hydroplane effect. That was a first for me as I've drafted many a car before with out that ever happening. I'm not sure what's going on but I wish they'd fix it.

If I put it in the sand I should not be able to catch Sphinx or MrP or 98% of the drivers out there, yet it's possible, I've done it and it shouldn't be.

 

[FIDO69]

Unimental,

May I suggest, can you put the current state of knowledge on this subject into a summary on the first page? I'm interested, but don't have the time to wade through 10pages to find out what the answer is.

Or, just put a link to the best answer in your first post. Thanks!!!

 

[zodicus]

Magburner, you may be on to something regarding a possible weight handicap, as it would account for much of the observations, although based on what I have seen and much of the claims from others, it must still be rather subtle, assuming it exists.

Regardless, it's a well thought out theory that deserves serious consideration. 👍





Yet, putting it aside would give you a false result... or are you saying that in an hour long race being several seconds behind is a worse beating than being behind by say five seconds in a five minute race? It has everything to do with the percentages, anything else is meaningless.

gotta compare apples to apples man we where talking about the differance between 2 laps not a whole race and 3 sec in one lap is a beating.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

gotta compare apples to apples man we where talking about the differance between 2 laps not a whole race and 3 sec in one lap is a beating.

It is apples to apples... because the ONLY thing that matters are the percentages as far as which are worse beats.

However, if you still don't get it and need a lap comparison then fine, which is a worse performance, to post a lap time of 10 seconds slower than your best lap on the Nurburgring, or 3 seconds slower than your best lap on High Speed Ring?

The answer, in case you don't know is that being 3 seconds slower on the High Speed Ring is far worse as that track is not only less than 1/5th the distance of the Nurb, but your average speed is also going to be much greater.

Based on the percentages, being three seconds slower on the High Speed Ring is equivalent to roughly being about twenty seconds slower on the Nurburgring.

If you ignore the total time, and thus the percentages, the number of seconds you are behind is meaningless.

I don't think it can be explained any simpler than that. If you still don't understand, I suggest we agree to disagree and move on.

 

[TigJackson]

And besides, I've been in far too many online GT5P races where the leader is able to break away from the pack, and increase his lead through out the entire race to know that if there is some kind of "boost" it can't possibly be very significant.

I am a half-way decent driver, and I will take the time and use the 'Free Run' to tune a car that I want to use in a race. My practice laps are fairly consistent, normally within a tenth/or even hundredths of a second of each other. Not that they're necessarily super fast, just fairly consistent.

When racing at Suzuka, I will tune the car to about +/-10 PP less than the allowable. This will normally allow you to start at the front of the field, but not always.

If I drive well enough to stay ahead throughout the first and second laps, my second lap times, when run at what appears to be my good, normal hard pace, without any interference or slipstream, will invariably be several seconds slower than a normal 'Free Run' lap time with the same setup.

It may not be very obvious, and perhaps it is some sort of weight penalty, but something seems amiss.....try it out for yourself sometime.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I am a half-way decent driver, and I will take the time and use the 'Free Run' to tune a car that I want to use in a race. My practice laps are fairly consistent, normally within a tenth/or even hundredths of a second of each other. Not that they're necessarily super fast, just fairly consistent.

When racing at Suzuka, I will tune the car to about +/-10 PP less than the allowable. This will normally allow you to start at the front of the field, but not always.

If I drive well enough to stay ahead throughout the first and second laps, my second lap times, when run at what appears to be my good, normal hard pace, without any interference or slipstream, will invariably be several seconds slower than a normal 'Free Run' lap time with the same setup.

It may not be very obvious, and perhaps it is some sort of weight penalty, but something seems amiss.....try it out for yourself sometime.

And did you consider the fact that possibly there is no tire wear during a Free Run and Time Trial, and the possibility there is in a race?

Also, don't get me wrong, if you read my comments I have not ruled out the chance there might be some kind of handicap system. What I am pointing out though is that to date, all we have are anecdotal evidence, and much of it contradicts other anecdotal evidence.

Like I said before, if it does exists, it seems pretty clear that it is subtle, and not anything like the rubber band AI in GT3 and typical arcade style racing games... which is not at all how some have pictured this so-call boost in GT5P.

The way some have described it, it would be next to impossible to lead a race and stay in the lead the entire time without everyone else completely screwing up.... and I know first hand that is not the case... from both being in the lead and trying to catch the leader.

 

[hornet_burnout]

And did you consider the fact that possibly there is no tire wear during a Free Run and Time Trial, and the possibility there is in a race?

That would make your performance always degrade during the race. Not to go up and down as you are further ahead or back...

 

[Denur]

I think that the 'online boost' is actually a weight penalty.

I also think you're onto something here. I wonder if people from PD have a bet going on for how long it will take someone from the community to make the right accessment...

Also, my guess is that when private rooms are there, that weight penalties will be an option.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

I also think you're onto something here. I wonder if people from PD have a bet going on for how long it will take someone from the community to make the right accessment...

In that case I'm guessing that they make your car shrink! Just in case I'm right can you imagine the look on their faces?

"WTF someone guessed????"

 

[SouL]

I had a 1 on 1 with a 600PP M3 on Suzuka earlier tonight.
I was in a 596PP Elise. In braking for the spoon corner the M3 overshot the braking point and got into the sand. By the 3rd sector I was well ahead with a 10 second margin.
The following 3 laps from me where:
2.18.xxx
2.17.xxx
2.15.xxx

Throughout the race he was able to close down the 10 second gap to about 1.5 seconds.

I don't think I was going slow. And I certainly wasn't going any slower. But the M3 was able to make up ground fairly quickly. During the 3rd lap I was able to extend the gap back to about 2 seconds.

 

[Sphinx]

I Sphinx you're all in de nile.

Honestly guys, it's so obvious, even a 5 year old would notice the boost.

By the way, my record Time Trial time for Suzuka 600 is 2'13.4??

In the same car, my record online boost record is now a staggering 2'08.053!!!!

Here's how I did it:


Lap 1:
I started a race (started 6th on pole), but even before reaching T1 i knew my wheel was going to dismount from its placement, and sure enough going along the straight before T2, it fell off and I crashed out of the race (still in 6th place).

Instead of quitting the race, I decided to quickly remount the wheel and try and catch up using the boost to help me (no chance otherwise). I slowly pulled away and reached T2, 30.236 seconds behind the leader (10th place). I continued on and reached the end of lap one 29.969 seconds behind the leader (only gained .200 approx in last sector).




Lap 2

Being 29.969 behind at the end of lap one, the boost would have to give me something special in lap two to catch the leading pack. The boost didn't let me down:

I reached T1 @ 55.675, and now only 23.269 seconds behind the leader (shaved off over 7 seconds in first sector alone).


I then reached T2 @ 1'43.351, and now only 18.959 seconds behind (now shaved off 11 seconds in two sectors).


I reached the end of lap two @ 2'08.053, and now only 16.352 seconds behind the leader (shaved off 14 seconds overall in lap two and got a new PB of 2'08.054 lap time)





Lap 3

I started to encounter slow traffic in the first sector but managed to get to T1 unscathed and without being help up, I reached T1 @ 58.927, and now only 13.663 seconds behind the leader (now back in 6th place).


Before reaching T2, I managed to get my first draft in the race and it helped me achieve a T2 split time of 1'47.185, and now only 11.085 seconds behind the leader. (still in 6th place).


At the finish line I achieved a lap 3 time of 2'14.306 and ended up only 7.791 seconds behind the winner.





Outcome:

After being 30 seconds down on the lead car, the boost enabled me to shave off 22 SECONDS! in only 2 LAPS! and produced an impossible (under normal conditions in this car) lap time of 2'08.053

A boost is there, and a handicap for the leaders is there. It's not mild, it huge!

Enough said...



...Apart from; I also recorded it.









Tyre wear, lol

 

[OrangeR]

I noticed something lately. I had 2 races with a 3 car grid, I was the fastest, not to brag, but by much, (guess very slow drivers, stock settings) I ended winning those races by 8 to 10 seconds, imagine that! Not so much online boost for them. My Lap times where 1 or 2 sec of my Free Run times. Then I got on several races with GTP_ members (obviously faster) and I couldn't get my lap times back, I was getting 3 to 5 seconds slower. I have to say I was on front most of the time because I reduced my PP for that matter (from 600 to 598) so no traffic or drag for me. My experiment showed me this: Slow pace from others, my lap times weren't affected by much. Competitive pace from others, my lap times were affected more. I don't know how much lap times were affected for others racers at that time. Maybe more than me, I couldn't know. Does the penalty–boost is affected by overall lap times? Number of Participants? TT records? So I came up with an idea:

Maybe if somehow get together say 4 to 5 GTP_ members with similar lap times, on certain track. Start to make hard evidence by experimenting. Say maybe from those 4 or 5 racers 3 to be slow by 2 sec, then 3 sec, etc. on purpose and see what happens to the leader lap times... 2 racers battle for the lead while 3 are slow, 2 battle for the lead while 3 are catching etc. Get the session on video and show it to the world! Once we get private races we can do this and put an end to this myth.

 

[Sphinx]

In the same car, my record online boost record is now a staggering 2'08.053!!!!

Once we get private races we can do this and put an end to this myth.

It's not a myth. It's there. Look at that laughable lap time above, it says it all.

I also have it on video.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Maybe "mythbusters" should take a look at this

 

[GTP_JASE72]

I Sphinx you're all in de nile.

Maybe a few people are so far down the river they've ended up in the sea

 

[OrangeR]

It's not a myth. It's there. Look at that laughable lap time above, it says it all.

I also have it on video.

Ok maybe my use of myth is not right. I was trying to say that if we can messure it we can know how it works and when. I'm not saying that it do not exist.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Ok maybe my use of myth is not right. I was trying to say that if we can messure it we can know how it works and when. I'm not saying that it do not exist.

Hum... right, so we (at least I) interpreted it wrong. Actually "put an end to this myth" means turn it from myth to fact. Demystify. Not discard the issue as a myth:

myth Noun
1. a. a story about superhuman beings of an earlier age, usually of how natural phenomena or social customs came into existence
b. same as mythology

2. a. an idea or explanation which is widely held but untrue or unproven: the myth that the USA is a classless society
b. a person or thing whose existence is fictional or unproven: the Loch Ness Monster is a myth [Greek muthos fable]

If so, apologies 👍

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Maybe "mythbusters" should take a look at this

However, if it doesn't result in blowing something up and singeing Jamie's handlebars, Adam won't be happy.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I Sphinx you're all in de nile.

Or maybe we find some exaggerate the effects rather than accurately and reasonably describe the effects.

By the way, my record Time Trial time for Suzuka 600 is 2'13.4??

In the same car, my record online boost record is now a staggering 2'08.053!!!!

That's only a 4% difference... and that's assuming you received absolutely no drafting in your "boost" record.

(yes I know, in a real life professional race, a 4% difference is "huge", but it isn't "huge" in a game that has a handicap system, in fact it's quite subtle)

After being 30 seconds down on the lead car, the boost enabled me to shave off 22 SECONDS! in only 2 LAPS! and produced an impossible (under normal conditions in this car) lap time of 2'08.053

However, for this to mean anything you would also have to know for a fact that the lead driver was using the exact same car, the exact same settings, had the same driving skill level, and made absolutely no mistakes. Other wise, you can't come to any meaningful conclusion based on comparing how far behind you were from the leader.

If you want to talk about those bathing in the Nile river, how about the people that are so worked up over this apparent handicap system that they describe it like its something one would find in an arcade racing game, and that because of it, the best drivers can't win on a regular basis... nor can they even keep the lead... both of which are completely untrue regarding GT5P.

As has been discussed already, I'm not saying this so-called boost (or more likely a weight adjustment system) doesn't exist, only that indeed, even by your own account, it most certainly is not "huge"... especially if you compare it to the typical rubber band boost you find in many racing games, and even the AI boost in GT3.

I happen to be one of those that would prefer there be no such handicap (penalty/boost) system in GT5P, or better yet, let that be an option so those that actually like having a handicap system can use it - because like BreakerOhio pointed out in the following post, some people are not interested in lap times and individual records when racing against others online:

I go online because I want a heated battle. I want a good race.
When racing with random strangers...there are going to be different levels of drivers out there.
I see this as a concern for racing. What will PD do to counter this?
They introduce boost to keep the racing spirit alive out there. They implemented it in such a way...The positive boost puts you back in the pack, but I don't think it goes beyond that. The negative boost slow you down when you are dominating the crowd of racers by large distance.... I think it's very controlled and doesn't hurt you or give you an advantage. You will place where you belong in that race based on your commitment to drive consistently and drive well. That's what I see racing with other drivers is about. About determining the better driver out there.

I share this thought to help rethink and accept it for what it is. Online racing is not time trials. There's a mode for that if you desire to measure your times.
If you are a faster driver, you will finish as the faster driver. I don't think it matters much in online racing what my time is to me. I get that from doing time trials where it's consistent. I take online racing for the aspect of battling it out side by side with another driver, not about my times.

Another excellent post that deserves repeating is this one:

Been reading this for a while, and would just like to chime in real quick.

My first reaction to something like boost was bad. How could PD do something so arcade to their sim. It is indeed in the spirit of racing. Nothing worse than being tapped out of line in a heated battle, losing it into the sand, knowing the race is over. You'll never see 1st place again. This Online Boost is very subtle, and is just assuring a close race.

This is something neat I noticed, and is my point here. When I'm in first place, I can slowly watch the field catch up to me, with 2nd place slowly but surely pulling up on me. Until he get's close enough where our "Boost" matches, then I see him slowly fall away again.
Just stay focused, drive hard, learn the track, tune your car. Nothing is better than being full tilt on a track of other cars inches from you. I know.

I would ABSOLUTELY like to see an update where we can have races that has this feature DISABLED! But I can live with it for the time being. Besides it's amazing practice trying to deal with a car that changes right underneath you constantly. Makes winning the race that much better.

The boost is definitely there. I can see it in my mirrors.
Let's keep this discussion up, in a civil fashion. I'm sure PD is listening.

👍👍

 

[Sphinx]

Whatever, DN.

I honestly can't be arsed to discuss this with you, especially when you attempt to belittle a 5 second improvement on a hot lap that is run by someone who is known to produce good hot laps. Have your fun, and I'll have mine when when it comes around, because it will.. cya.

 

[Mr P]

Well said Jerry! some people are stubborn like mules and will not take any persons ( or groups of people )word until they are slapped in the face with the reality, my conclusion is that Digital Nitrate is never a front runner with the hindered handling and crappy brakes and pretty much relies on the boost system at the back of the pack! and doesn't like the theory of the boost being the reason behind his ability to be competative

Yep twist that around and turn it whatever way you fancy bud

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Nice to see those that disagree can remain civil and not resort to childish remarks... oh wait... never mind.

BTW: As I already posted, I have led and won several races without ever losing my lead, and I'm the first to admit I am not any where near the same skill level as the top GT5P drivers, and most of the time I only use the controller as it's too much of a pain to setup the wheel.

So if the handicap system was as "huge" as some have claimed it to be, I should not have been able to win, let alone extend my lead in as many races as I have.

Oh well, I guess you are right about one thing, and that some people are stubborn like mules and have no desire to discuss things in a meaningful and civil way. They just want to bash others into submission. Sad, but true.

 

[Mr P]

What bashing? I simply gave my opinion .... pretty much the same entitlement you have! you can simply say I'm right or wrong? but I don't think I am bashing anyone

No need to get all overboard now

 

[Sphinx]

Nice to see those that disagree can remain civil and not resort to childish remarks... oh wait... never mind.

BTW: As I already posted, I have led and won several races without ever losing my lead, and I'm the first to admit I am not any where near the same skill level as the top GT5P drivers, and most of the time I only use the controller as it's too much of a pain to setup the wheel.

So if the handicap system was as "huge" as some have claimed it to be, I should not have been able to win, let alone extend my lead in as many races as I have.

Oh well, I guess you are right about one thing, and that some people are stubborn like mules and have no desire to discuss things in a meaningful and civil way. They just want to bash others into submission. Sad, but true.

2'08.053
No Draft
Suzuka 600 PP
Online​