The "Online Boost" demystified

[atledreier]

If it's just a weight penalty it should be fairly easy to test. Go online at Fuji, two guys with the same car. PReferably one that is easy to get away in, say an Evo or omething. Drive a slow lap to the start of the straight, stop, and launch at the same time. That should be a very even start. Then one of you drive a lap while the other stays put, and do it again. A weight penalty would greatly influence acceleration, and a simple launch don't take alot of skill.

 

[rmk700]

Seems to me that the physics go bad. If I get a 8 or 10 second lead, the car just all of a sudden becomes (temporaraly) almost impossible to control. This is mostly noticable in 600pp Suzuka. It really seems to me it's more of a hit on the leaders than a boost for the slower drivers.

 

[hornet_burnout]

The weight theory (bare with me, grab a beer or something )

As stated before, when this was initially suggested, I didn't think much of it. But I am now a converted believer. This is why:

More weight = more mass to displace. More inertia.

Q. How does inertia affect movement?
A. Inertia is resistance to movement. It takes longer to move heavier things because they have more mass and more inertial resistance to movement. This affects acceleration in an obvious way. I think everyone agrees.

Q. How does inertia affect an object already moving?
A. When something has reached a steady speed it becomes the same as if it was stopped in terms of mass and inertia. So, changing that state produces more inertial resistance. This affects braking AND turning.
a) Braking.
When you brake, you are pushing the object back from the stable state (@xxx speeed) to a slower speed, or to stillness. This produces inertial resistance, and heavier object takes longer to slow down.
b) Cornering.
When you push an object out of it's moving trajectory, you force it from a stable state (@xxx speeed on that way) to a different direction. Inertial resistance keeps pushing the car in the original direction, and that makes you slow down. The more you have to turn away from the original direction, the more you slow down. The tighter the corner, the slower you have to be.

Now combine that with tire grip and driving.
More weight = slower acceleration
More weight = slower braking
More weight = slower cornering

That last one may be the hard one to grasp, so here is a further explanation:
If weight produces more inertia, a heavier car is harder to turn away form it's original direction. If you take the same corner in a lighter car @speed 100 (for example) in it's tire grip limits, a heavier car will not turn without loosing grip because the resistance to turning (or the force "pushing" the car to the outside) is greater. So you have to take it say @speed 90.

So yes, I believe this boost/handicap is progressive weight change, from something like 80% when you are dead last on a 12 player race, to 120% when you are leading. And this affects acceleration, braking and cornering a lot.

It does not affect top speed (although you may believe otherwise as I once did). Only the time you take to beat the resistance to movement, and reach it.

Hope this helps everyone to understand the argument and the theory, and test it also.

Feel free to disagree, but don't miss quote me or distort what I said mmmK ?

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

Feel free to disagree, but don't miss quote me or distort what I said mmmK ?

So let me get this straight - you're saying theres no boost or weight penalty, we're all liars and punting people into the sand trap is a perfectly acceptable way to make up race positions?

 

[hornet_burnout]

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

So when do we get rid of this boost crap already? I had a race where I went 6 SECONDS faster on a lap because of boost, and another 4seconds slower because of rubber banding. I just want to get rid of it once and for all.

 

[lbloom]

Whether it can be proven to anyones' satisfaction or not, it is pretty obvious that some kind of equalization effect is in the game. When I get bumped into the kitty litter and am 20 seconds behind, and I make all or most of that up in a couple of laps at Suzuka, then there is something going on. I am far from a great driver, and I know what I am capable of and not.

That said I hope when we get the fall up date that PD give us the choice of using it or not. I get tired of bashers putting themselves into the kitty litter, being able to catch back up, and get second, third, or more shots at whacking me.

 

[AERO_HDT]

I wasn't a believer of the 'boost' theory. Mostly because some races where I've been last I haven't been able to make any ground on the leaders, no matter how hard I try.

But I did try 3 things and I did measure them...

1: Playing alone, I can run 2'16s at Suzuka in a 600PP car.
2: Playing with 6-10 players online, I can lead them for three laps and consistently run at 2'23s. Hmmm. 7 seconds difference there, that's not very good.
3: Playing with 6-10 players online, I can be last and pull off a 2'12, providing I'm more than 30 seconds behind the leaders.

Having a 10 second difference in lap times in identical cars with identical techniques is a mystery to me. But I gotta admit, the car FLIES when you're that far behind the leaders. My theory was that the physics model was switched to Standard to allow you to catch up, because I was gobbling corners at a rate of knots, but I wasn't really pulling any ridiculously high speeds down the straights. The car just felt really planted.

I have noticed though, that when you get put off into a gravel trap, the tyre grip tends to go away for about 3 or 4 corners after rejoining the track. Is it just me, or there a 'dirty tyre' effect in Prologue?

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

I wasn't a believer of the 'boost' theory. Mostly because some races where I've been last I haven't been able to make any ground on the leaders, no matter how hard I try.

But I did try 3 things and I did measure them...

1: Playing alone, I can run 2'16s at Suzuka in a 600PP car.
2: Playing with 6-10 players online, I can lead them for three laps and consistently run at 2'23s. Hmmm. 7 seconds difference there, that's not very good.
3: Playing with 6-10 players online, I can be last and pull off a 2'12, providing I'm more than 30 seconds behind the leaders.

Having a 10 second difference in lap times in identical cars with identical techniques is a mystery to me. But I gotta admit, the car FLIES when you're that far behind the leaders. My theory was that the physics model was switched to Standard to allow you to catch up, because I was gobbling corners at a rate of knots, but I wasn't really pulling any ridiculously high speeds down the straights. The car just felt really planted.

I have noticed though, that when you get put off into a gravel trap, the tyre grip tends to go away for about 3 or 4 corners after rejoining the track. Is it just me, or there a 'dirty tyre' effect in Prologue?

The dirty-tyre effect is something I'm convinced about - number of times I've come out a gravel pit, only to go back in the next one because suddenly the back end doesn't seem to be there any more is uncountable. I don't think its anything as much as 3-4 corners tho I think it's a very short lived thing and I tend to combat it by burning out in 1st gear when I get back on the track. As soon as the wheels bite you got your grip back.

I noticed my current evo setup (I think this is just a fluke because I have the gears setup just so) if I'm out in the lead by more than 7-8 secs the little red flashing gear indicator tells me to use 3rd gear to get around the right hander between dunlop and degner. Any other situation it wants me to do it in 4th.

 

[hornet_burnout]

I noticed my current evo setup (I think this is just a fluke because I have the gears setup just so) if I'm out in the lead by more than 7-8 secs the little red flashing gear indicator tells me to use 3rd gear to get around the right hander between dunlop and degner. Any other situation it wants me to do it in 4th.

I think I posted about it earlier. But I'll reiterate it and I confirm that. I saw it with the Elise in HSR T2.

 

[magburner]

I have noticed though, that when you get put off into a gravel trap, the tyre grip tends to go away for about 3 or 4 corners after rejoining the track. Is it just me, or there a 'dirty tyre' effect in Prologue?

Yeah its real - go lightly on the gas or you'll be back where you started, or facing the wrong way!

 

[Stevisiov]

The weight theory (bare with me, grab a beer or something )

As stated before, when this was initially suggested, I didn't think much of it. But I am now a converted believer. This is why:

More weight = more mass to displace. More inertia.

Q. How does inertia affect movement?
A. Inertia is resistance to movement. It takes longer to move heavier things because they have more mass and more inertial resistance to movement. This affects acceleration in an obvious way. I think everyone agrees.

Q. How does inertia affect an object already moving?
A. When something has reached a steady speed it becomes the same as if it was stopped in terms of mass and inertia. So, changing that state produces more inertial resistance. This affects braking AND turning.
a) Braking.
When you brake, you are pushing the object back from the stable state (@xxx speeed) to a slower speed, or to stillness. This produces inertial resistance, and heavier object takes longer to slow down.
b) Cornering.
When you push an object out of it's moving trajectory, you force it from a stable state (@xxx speeed on that way) to a different direction. Inertial resistance keeps pushing the car in the original direction, and that makes you slow down. The more you have to turn away from the original direction, the more you slow down. The tighter the corner, the slower you have to be.

Now combine that with tire grip and driving.
More weight = slower acceleration
More weight = slower braking
More weight = slower cornering

That last one may be the hard one to grasp, so here is a further explanation:
If weight produces more inertia, a heavier car is harder to turn away form it's original direction. If you take the same corner in a lighter car @speed 100 (for example) in it's tire grip limits, a heavier car will not turn without loosing grip because the resistance to turning (or the force "pushing" the car to the outside) is greater. So you have to take it say @speed 90.

So yes, I believe this boost/handicap is progressive weight change, from something like 80% when you are dead last on a 12 player race, to 120% when you are leading. And this affects acceleration, braking and cornering a lot.

It does not affect top speed (although you may believe otherwise as I once did). Only the time you take to beat the resistance to movement, and reach it.

Hope this helps everyone to understand the argument and the theory, and test it also.

Feel free to disagree, but don't miss quote me or distort what I said mmmK ?

It would appear to make sense as it seems every aspect of driving changes when handicaped, but I am not convinced. Adding weight while generally lowing your cornering speed will cause greater traction due to a greater download which is something that appears heavily compremised when running in first. Think of Suzuka 600pp races for this in particular 'hairpin curve' shown on the track map found here if you are not familiar. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=104549

If you are in a powerful 4wd car (in the lead) you have to carefully ease the throttle through to find grip and be subtle with the lock you put on. Now try the same thing from last place, slow down, turn in, full lock, pin the throttle and feel pleased with yourself after executing a perfect sideways drift yet without the tyres complaining about lacking traction, this sort of cornering technique is impossible using professional physics whatever the weight is set to.

The full lock, full throttle cornering works on this corner in standard physics mode, but if you keep it in proffesional no matter how much you play round with the weight.

Give it a try and see what you think, I certainly think weight is added but I also the the physics dynamically changes between professional and standard depending on how far you are behind the leader.

I wasn't a believer of the 'boost' theory. Mostly because some races where I've been last I haven't been able to make any ground on the leaders, no matter how hard I try.

But I did try 3 things and I did measure them...

1: Playing alone, I can run 2'16s at Suzuka in a 600PP car.
2: Playing with 6-10 players online, I can lead them for three laps and consistently run at 2'23s. Hmmm. 7 seconds difference there, that's not very good.
3: Playing with 6-10 players online, I can be last and pull off a 2'12, providing I'm more than 30 seconds behind the leaders.

Having a 10 second difference in lap times in identical cars with identical techniques is a mystery to me. But I gotta admit, the car FLIES when you're that far behind the leaders. My theory was that the physics model was switched to Standard to allow you to catch up, because I was gobbling corners at a rate of knots, but I wasn't really pulling any ridiculously high speeds down the straights. The car just felt really planted.

I have noticed though, that when you get put off into a gravel trap, the tyre grip tends to go away for about 3 or 4 corners after rejoining the track. Is it just me, or there a 'dirty tyre' effect in Prologue?

I bolded the bits I think are particularly important and I definetly agree. I posted this last page:

Originally Posted by Stevisiov.
I personally think it isn't just weight that changes, the whole driving dynamic appears to change as if those at the back are running in a more standard physics mode when the front runners are driving in a a somewhat more proffesional physics mode.

I am aware this seems a little odd but after a while of front running follwed by intentionally hanging back in last place I couldn't help feeling that the driving felt very similar to the standard physics mode. Try out and then have a go comparing it to standard physics mode.

The cars turn in is particularly noticable the car changes direction so easily and maintains extreme traction. Its a different grip than what you get when you reduce the weight of the car. Have a go and see what you think.

It certainly seems to me that it isn't just weight behind this, I certainly think the physics change depending on how far you are behind the leader.

More thoughts anyone?

[edit] I will also agree with everyone saying you loose grip for a few corners after going onto the gravel.

 

[mindwise]

It does not affect top speed (although you may believe otherwise as I once did). Only the time you take to beat the resistance to movement, and reach it

Hi Burnout, thanks for the opportunity to disagree

You give the answer yourself, more mass means it takes longer to reach top-speed. Unfortunately it also means you need to break earlyer for the next corner.
Therefore on a track, mass does influence top speed, it will be lower with more mass. (because you don't have the space/time to reach the top speed due to slower acceleration and deceleration.

On a really long straight the top speed will be equal.(though reached later).

Still, i could be wrong

 

[Stevisiov]

Hi Burnout, thanks for the opportunity to disagree

You give the answer yourself, more mass means it takes longer to reach top-speed. Unfortunately it also means you need to break earlyer for the next corner.
Therefore on a track, mass does influence top speed, it will be lower with more mass. (because you don't have the space/time to reach the top speed due to slower acceleration and deceleration.

On a really long straight the top speed will be equal.(though reached later).

Still, i could be wrong

Not wrong, but perhaps misinterpreted what he said, I think what he was trying to get across was: mass doesn't effect your top speed, however given that mass reduces acceleration it may not allow the car to reach its top speed down the straight as the straight isn't long enough. This is why a car without a weight penalty is recording higher speeds than a car with a weight penalty. This change in speed down the straight led people to think that it was a 'boost' handicap system (as in an increase in power) when instead it is quite possible that their higher speed down the straight could be attributed to lower weight (thanks to increase in acceleration) rather than an increase in power.

Am I correct?

As I said earlier I think there a number of factors involved in rather than just weight but it certainly appears that a magical dynamic Ballast system has been integrated into PD's handicap model.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Not wrong, but perhaps misinterpreted what he said, I think what he was trying to get across was: mass doesn't effect your top speed, however given that mass reduces acceleration it may not allow the car to reach its top speed down the straight as the straight isn't long enough. This is why a car without a weight penalty is recording higher speeds than a car with a weight penalty. This change in speed down the straight led people to think that it was a 'boost' handicap system (as in an increase in power) when instead it is quite possible that their higher speed down the straight could be attributed to lower weight (thanks to increase in acceleration) rather than an increase in power.

Am I correct?

As I said earlier I think there a number of factors involved in rather than just weight but it certainly appears that a magical dynamic Ballast system has been integrated into PD's handicap model.

That's exactly what I meant on top speed.

And I also think weight does not explain it all. I've been testing, and the closest way I can replicate this, is by going from 85% weight and R3 to 115 and R1 (350z tuned or 135i on suzuka). From light and gripy to bulky and sliding all over the place.

 

[zodicus]

I definitely "feels" like the whole car changes, the easiest way to do that I would think would be weight and/or tires. As has been stated in this thread weight will effect all aspects of the cars handling as will the level of grip in the tires.
It seams that pretty much everyone here thinks the boost is real, I do to. I just hope they take it out in the expert lvl races in a update soon, or its a option once we get privet rooms.
Someone said something about the physics changing because you cant slide through the hairpin in suzuka, I beg to differ. I power slide through that corner all the time as it seams to give me the best exit speed in the STI RA ( anyone thats followed me in 600 suzuka can vouch for that)
I think the weight and/or tires is def the most likely. It would be the easiest to code for and would be very effective at slowing down and speeding up cars. So koudos to the guy that first proposed that.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

Hey guys, someone else noticed the boost is gone???
There seems to be still something, but if any its much weaker!
My laptimes are way more constant now and I had a few wins/ podiums with the rest of the pack not coming closer. Also I saw many groups were built during the races with big gaps between them .👍
I further noticed less people moaning about the **** Boost
So should we make a Thank You Polyphony for listening thread?

LOL it could all be the S2 tyres though, didn't really test it much on 750pp....
But I love the current 600! Feels actually like racing, not bumpercar 👍
Boost demystified finally ( til next update) ???

 

[Threshold]

I don't think it's gone, although now I'm noticing that's it's more selective. I'm always on Suzuka 750PP, and I've noticed that sometimes when I'm ahead by a lot I will still be able to crank 2:02 lap times consistently, but when I'm ahead by a few seconds I will struggle to get any lap done under 2:06. Other times when the guy behind me is just outside my slipstream it feels like normal, and I can do 2:02 lap times again. When I start on pole and don't get punted off at the first turn, the car will feel like normal all the way up the first sector. I hit that first sector at around 55.5 secs, but after that I hit the second sector at like 1:42 (usually I hit it at 1:38). I think the game somehow judges the skill of the players and gives or takes away boost accordingly.

 

[panjandrum]

How many of you have played GT4 with boost on in LAN mode? I host a lot of 5 and 6 player GT4 races, and to me the boost in GT5P seems a LOT like the "mild" boost setting in GT4.

For those unfamiliar, here is how the boost in GT4 works (this is extremely easy to see in "strong" mode, a little less obvious in "mild" mode, but other than the degree of boost, they work the same way).

Take the racers to a wide open track or a track with a long straight, say the test circuit or sarthe. Run all the cars down the track together. Notice that the lead car's speedo might say "200" and the trailing car might be doing "175", and yet the lead car isn't pulling ahead. In other words, they didn't change the "physics", they just fudged things so that the trailing cars are really running faster than they should, and faster than they report they are running, and the lead cars run more slowly than they report. If you are in a twitchy car like the Yellowbird, being in the trailing position can make the car very difficult to control, because you are suddenly coming up on turns much faster than your speedo reports you to be. Being in the lead position can also mess up your driving to a lesser extent since you think you are going faster than you really are, which can lead to early breaking, early apexing, etc.

IMHO GT5P does this exactly the same way. Your speedo says one thing, but it doesn't match what is really going on. This can totally screw you up because the car doesn't magically gain more grip, it just lies to you about how fast it is going, telling you that you are coming up to a corner at, say, 190 when you are actually doing 210.

 

[atledreier]

Do you even look at the speedometer when racing? I rely mostly on the rpm sound for speed references.

 

[Timppaq]

How many of you have played GT4 with boost on in LAN mode? I host a lot of 5 and 6 player GT4 races, and to me the boost in GT5P seems a LOT like the "mild" boost setting in GT4.

For those unfamiliar, here is how the boost in GT4 works (this is extremely easy to see in "strong" mode, a little less obvious in "mild" mode, but other than the degree of boost, they work the same way).

Take the racers to a wide open track or a track with a long straight, say the test circuit or sarthe. Run all the cars down the track together. Notice that the lead car's speedo might say "200" and the trailing car might be doing "175", and yet the lead car isn't pulling ahead. In other words, they didn't change the "physics", they just fudged things so that the trailing cars are really running faster than they should, and faster than they report they are running, and the lead cars run more slowly than they report. If you are in a twitchy car like the Yellowbird, being in the trailing position can make the car very difficult to control, because you are suddenly coming up on turns much faster than your speedo reports you to be. Being in the lead position can also mess up your driving to a lesser extent since you think you are going faster than you really are, which can lead to early breaking, early apexing, etc.

IMHO GT5P does this exactly the same way. Your speedo says one thing, but it doesn't match what is really going on. This can totally screw you up because the car doesn't magically gain more grip, it just lies to you about how fast it is going, telling you that you are coming up to a corner at, say, 190 when you are actually doing 210.

I feel this is very much possible... and sad. That would explain many things. Sometimes I can´t tell where the time difference comes since the speeds don´t seem to change a lot... It´s like fast forwarding the lap when at the bottom. 👎

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

Well i never really look at the speedometer and i think the boost was more a tyre/ weight physics thing. However it has changed a lot since the last update, i had a win with over 50 sec in front e.g., also i pretty much can do the same laptimes when behind or leading.
There might be still a bit of boost, but its very mild then.
I mean someone else must have noticed, cmon ?

 

[fusflash]

I had a lap 3 seconds below my best lap time yesterday on Fuji when I was 20 seconds behind the leader - I doubt I improved so much recently

 

[paolopepper]

oh my god im almost in tears its a horrible feeling when im in the lead now, because i know there going to eventually catch me up! And now its jsut been proved i lead from the second lap till the last corner on the final lap and the pack has caught me up and hit me offunbeliveable all my hard work getting a 4 second lead gone in the last corner.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

On the other hand if you can pull off a win and come in 10-20 secs ahead of the rest then you know you've kicked some serious ass.

Doesn't happen often but when it does I have a little smug moment while my mouth enjoys a grin-party

 

[Dragonistic]

i find in bigger grid the boost seems less and can often pull away from the lead once i get the pack out of my slipstream, but small Grids it seems impossible.

EDIT: Just took a 28 second win against a full grid

 

[hornet_burnout]

Just won 2 in a row in Suzuka 600, leading from start to end in a 599pp R8.

I was permanently doing 2.26 and getting caught up (saw it in the map), but the pack always found a way to go off track and I was actualy never challenged for the lead.

Anyways, on the first race, Evo96 (IT?) on an F40 waited in the finish line on lap2, and when I came by for lap3 he took off ahead of me. I barely managed to keep up with him... And even lost it in the hairpin from trying to hard. So that boost/handicap system still is there. An F40 that started 2nd and couldn't keep up with my R8 (normal...), dropped to last, and was driving ahead of me with ease.

So it's still there but it's much better. At least the grip losses aren't as flagrant and such shunt makers as before.

 

[Earth]

I hate it when someone just sits on the side of the track for the whole race, it seems like them going a lap down maximizes the rubberband effect

 

[Stevisiov]

Yep Freeloader Freddie put the boost effect in overdrive, I wonder where the distance cut off point is?

 

[Sinsemila]

I agree with Timppaq, I always look glance at the speedo when driving and my speeds dont change from when i'm being boosted or getting slowed down but there is a huge difference in the speed the scenery is going past. 200kmh feels like 150 when being slowed down or 250kmh when getting sped up.