The "Online Boost" demystified

[arora]

I happen to be one of those that would prefer there be no such handicap (penalty/boost) system in GT5P, or better yet, let that be an option so those that actually like having a handicap system can use it

PD calls it a boost system, just fire up gt4, go to options, go to 2 player battle, and lookie at the bottom of the screen. An option for boost level; off, mild, strong. Doesn't get any clearer then that I'm pretty confident that over time and when gt5 is released it will be an option in your home and online.

 

[magburner]

Thanks for all the positive feedback on the weight penalty guys. Now I think that I know what to look for, I am going to experiment, and see if I can spot the penalty system in action again.

I am a half-way decent driver, and I will take the time and use the 'Free Run' to tune a car that I want to use in a race. My practice laps are fairly consistent, normally within a tenth/or even hundredths of a second of each other. Not that they're necessarily super fast, just fairly consistent.

When racing at Suzuka, I will tune the car to about +/-10 PP less than the allowable. This will normally allow you to start at the front of the field, but not always.

If I drive well enough to stay ahead throughout the first and second laps, my second lap times, when run at what appears to be my good, normal hard pace, without any interference or slipstream, will invariably be several seconds slower than a normal 'Free Run' lap time with the same setup.

It may not be very obvious, and perhaps it is some sort of weight penalty, but something seems amiss.....try it out for yourself sometime.

I've noticed the same thing. I can race much faster in free run (I've had a 2.06.xxx before now) than I can in race. Even if the road ahead is clear, I can never get anywhere near my splits, or lap times.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Thanks for all the positive feedback on the weight penalty guys. Now I think that I know what to look for, I am going to experiment, and see if I can spot the penalty system in action again.

I really think you are onto something here. 👍

I'm pretty confident that over time and when gt5 is released it will be an option in your home and online.

I feel the same way. It just would be nice if they updated GT5P to do the same, and maybe they will if or when they update GT5P to have private races, or even just custom races, like in MotorStorm and F1CE where the host get's to setup the race with whatever options they choose. 👍

 

[hornet_burnout]

(..)
So if the handicap system was as "huge" as some have claimed it to be, I should not have been able to win
(...)

You are discarding everything people say that does not fir your interests, and distort other things, and this one sentence proves you are arguing just to win the argument at any cost, not to clear the doubts on this issue.

My opinion was clearly stated, but I'll sum it up:
A) There is boost and handicap, probably in the form of weight.
B) If it's inherently good or bad, it's a personal feeling. What it is, is probably necessary to keep most races close, and a pain for good drivers, racing close to the limit, since this keeps changing and pushing us off course.

Subject dropped. Have a nice weekend.

 

[fr0z3n_f1r3]

Nice to see those that disagree can remain civil and not resort to childish remarks... oh wait... never mind.

BTW: As I already posted, I have led and won several races without ever losing my lead, and I'm the first to admit I am not any where near the same skill level as the top GT5P drivers, and most of the time I only use the controller as it's too much of a pain to setup the wheel.

So if the handicap system was as "huge" as some have claimed it to be, I should not have been able to win, let alone extend my lead in as many races as I have.

Oh well, I guess you are right about one thing, and that some people are stubborn like mules and have no desire to discuss things in a meaningful and civil way. They just want to bash others into submission. Sad, but true.

Sorry bro, but I've seen it too for the first time last weekend. I had a tuned vette in 750PP on expert and I usually can rip off 2'06" to 2'07 laptimes, though it's usually a great deal higher. Then, one of my times online was a 2'01 in that car. Shaving five seconds of a single lap without any drafting is ridiculous.

Now, that's not to say that I've been able to come back and win tons of races. As you get close to the front, the boost will likely decrease. It's just to keep races close, not keep some guy from winning.

Listen, there are many times that the leader is the lucky one who was able to get way out in front and stay out of the wrecks that took everyone else out. It could easily allow you to build a 5-6 second lead. A second place guy is not going to get the same boost as the last place guy. But, you'll see that your lead over the second place guy will keep decreasing, even if you aren't making mistakes. Now, if your lead is large enough, and the guy in second is pushing hard but has a few slight excursions due to trying hard to catch you, it's not all that unheard of to retain a decent lead. Yes, some of it is attributable to skill, but boost is there brother.

 

[PalmerW]

I just hope we get an option to turn it off once private rooms are made available. I would rather catch up to and pass another driver because i am indeed quicker, not because there is some mysterious force willing me to do so...just my opinion.

 

[Zero]

My opinion was clearly stated, but I'll sum it up:
A) There is boost and handicap, probably in the form of weight.

I'm thinking that it could also be a horsepower handicap. Plenty of times in 750pp suzuka I've went from a 2:03 to a 2:10 while in front and I have noticed different speeds throughout the corners and the straights but as you said that could be weight.

Earth and I were on Suzuka 750pp yesterday. After lap one he was out to a 4.5xx second lead on me and before we got to Spoon curve that lead was down to under a second. I'm not saying bad driving on his part or good driving on my part I just know because I've raced against him enough to know that I cannot catch him period. Cannot get anywhere near him on the track. There is without a doubt a catch-up system that if one takes all the right lines through every corner with the correct speed one can catch up over 6 seconds per lap on the leader. Its a shame really.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Sorry bro, but I've seen it too for the first time last weekend. I had a tuned vette in 750PP on expert and I usually can rip off 2'06" to 2'07 laptimes, though it's usually a great deal higher. Then, one of my times online was a 2'01 in that car. Shaving five seconds of a single lap without any drafting is ridiculous.

Now, that's not to say that I've been able to come back and win tons of races. As you get close to the front, the boost will likely decrease. It's just to keep races close, not keep some guy from winning.

Listen, there are many times that the leader is the lucky one who was able to get way out in front and stay out of the wrecks that took everyone else out. It could easily allow you to build a 5-6 second lead. A second place guy is not going to get the same boost as the last place guy. But, you'll see that your lead over the second place guy will keep decreasing, even if you aren't making mistakes. Now, if your lead is large enough, and the guy in second is pushing hard but has a few slight excursions due to trying hard to catch you, it's not all that unheard of to retain a decent lead. Yes, some of it is attributable to skill, but boost is there brother.

And I am not disagreeing with anything you just said. 👍

My only contention is with those that consider anecdotal evidence as unquestionable fact, and those that exaggerate the effects. I would hope most would agree neither of those things is conducive to having a reasonable and mature discussion… neither are the snide remarks some have chosen to resort to.

I just hope we get an option to turn it off once private rooms are made available. I would rather catch up to and pass another driver because i am indeed quicker, not because there is some mysterious force willing me to do so...just my opinion.

Agreed. 👍

 

[hornet_burnout]

I'm thinking that it could also be a horsepower handicap. Plenty of times in 750pp suzuka I've went from a 2:03 to a 2:10 while in front and I have noticed different speeds throughout the corners and the straights but as you said that could be weight.

Just to clarify, the weight idea was not mine. Magburner has the credits.

I did not agree at first. But then I thought more weight, more lateral inertia on corners, tire grip limit comes sooner, and I now agree with it.

 

[Sphinx]

OK DN, I want to call you out on this. I challenge you to a test that will prove this either way. I want you and I to go to Suzuka 600pp sometime, run 3 laps to get an average of the time gap between us, and then on race 4 I will hang back for 30 seconds and then you have to maintain an acceptable gap based on the average we determined earlier?

For example, if you average 2 seconds a lap faster than me, then I expect you to increase that 30 second lead by 2 secs every lap.

OK?

EDIT:

I'll even record it for everyone to see for themselves.

 

[Mr P]

Good suggestion imo 👍

 

[Stevisiov]

I am genuinly surprised that people haven't noticed the 'boost' effect, I would have described it as 'prominent' rather than subtle. I haven't really noticed power differences but grip levels when at the back of the pack compared to grip levels at the front of the pack are considerable. For me it is rather irritating not just because it allows crasher at second chance at a smash up but also because I find it hard to adjust to the constantly changing grip levels. I am used to it to an extent from tire wear in other games but this is a much more rapid transistion, when you get knocked of the track its not long before you are tearing up the track with more pace than you had before you went off. As far as I am concerned you can feel the difference let alone measure it with lap times and I am surely not the only person who runs with a wheel.

Now I realise my interpretations can't be used as hard fact, but surely the number of people who have noticed this or even measured this using lap times must hold considerable credability on this matter. I feel you are a little quick to disregard this because it doesn't appear 'solid' enough as evidence, but I am not aware of any way (with exception to lap times) of giving hard evidence, so disregarding it due to lack of evidence is fairly naive. Personally I think sphinx's lap time are enough validity to demonstrate quite a prominent handicap system. If I spent hours perfecting a hotlap and then beat it by 5...5!!!! seconds on the one lap, I would have go back to the drawing board and wonder why the hell I couldn't pull that off before.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

OK DN, I want to call you out on this. I challenge you to a test that will prove this either way.

Seriously? "I challenge you"... is this High School?

Besides all the variables that you would not be able to account for that would result in it being just another piece of anecdotal evidence, what exactly would it prove??? Geez. I already said that I believe there is some form of handicap, and thanks to magburner, unlike some people he is making a real effort to determine exactly what is going on here. My contention, as already stated is with those that consider anecdotal evidence as unquestionable fact, and those that exaggerate the effects.

Oh well, I guess you are not done trying to bash me into submission.

 

[Sphinx]

yeah, thought not.

 

[BreakerOhio]

I think the weight theory sounds closest to what is really happening with the boost system. I know it is there and I deal with it. I don't get why some people are getting all rowdy over it. There are two modes of play. Time trial and online racing.

For those getting rowdy and pissed off over this....If you want to measure your time, then understand you can choose to do that by playing time trials.

For those that are observent and trying to solve this mystery boost, I give you props for being civil and describing your experience and your theories. Weight theory seems to be a good guess. Good observation and testing!

Don't get boost twisted and think people like boost to abuse it. I like it because it keep me honest when leading the race that it keeps me driving with caution and fear of potentially making a mistake that may cause me to lose my pole position. I have to keep pushing it to maintain my lead. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way.

I measure myself on time trials, and can stroke my ego there, but I race online because I want the challenge and the boost keeps me driving on edge the whole race.

Boost is there. I don't know how many times people need to prove it. It's uncessessary. I think we can all agree it's there. Our next step is understanding how it works. And the weight theory seems the best.

 

[750F-RM]

Two things i'd like to say...

Firstly. Be it online or off, boost/handicapping/anything that interferes with the natural course of the race is imo, baaaad

Secondly. I've been around a lot of racing game/sim forums over the years. i also modded the GT3 and later the GT4 section of the website of the publisher of the official GT3/4 guides, Piggyback Interactive (got my name in the credits section of the official GT4 guide ). And i can safely say that i've never come across a driving game or sim that evokes such strong emotions and fierce debates as the GT series

That's a testament i believe to the greatness of the GT series of games. We all keep buying and playing them, despite some of the glaring flaws that exist within them

It's the sheer feel of the driving experience within that does it for me

That went off on a bit of a tangent and off topic too i think. Still, thought i'd say it

One thing i did learn from modding. Don't takes the disagreements to heart, they're fuelled by our shared passion 👍

 

[arora]

Don't get boost twisted and think people like boost to abuse it. I like it because it keep me honest when leading the race that it keeps me driving with caution and fear of potentially making a mistake that may cause me the win. I have to keep pushing it to maintain my lead. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way.

I'm sure some people do like to abuse it to stroke their ego's, if it's just a friendly race without the 'win at all cost' mantality it's ok, like when a friend goes off and you slow down to let him catch back up, I get that but it's not working very well online.

Personally I feel enough pressure holding a lead without my car sudenly drinking a keg, the catchup part should be more then enough and I could do without that as well.

EDIT: Because I'm bored...

If you like unforseen variables in your racing experience play something like CTR that way you can give yourself boost at will, put a protective bubble around your car to thwart punters, and launch tornado's and bombs at your apponents. It's quite fun actually and I play it with my kids, but gt should be about real as it can get racing.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I've been around a lot of racing game/sim forums over the years. i also modded the GT3 and later the GT4 section of the website of the publisher of the official GT3/4 guides, Piggyback Interactive (got my name in the credits section of the official GT4 guide ). And i can safely say that i've never come across a driving game or sim that evokes such strong emotions and fierce debates as the GT series

That's a testament i believe to the greatness of the GT series of games. We all keep buying and playing them, despite some of the glaring flaws that exist within them

It's the sheer feel of the driving experience within that does it for me

That went off on a bit of a tangent and off topic too i think. Still, thought i'd say it

One thing i did learn from modding. Don't takes the disagreements to heart, they're fuelled by our shared passion 👍

Well said, and excellent advice. 👍

I think the weight theory sounds closest to what is really happening with the boost system. I know it is there and I deal with it. I don't get why some people are getting all rowdy over it. There are two modes of play. Time trial and online racing.

For those getting rowdy and pissed off over this....If you want to measure your time, then understand you can choose to do that by playing time trials.

For those that are observent and trying to solve this mystery boost, I give you props for being civil and describing your experience and your theories. Weight theory seems to be a good guess. Good observation and testing!

Don't get boost twisted and think people like boost to abuse it. I like it because it keep me honest when leading the race that it keeps me driving with caution and fear of potentially making a mistake that may cause me to lose my pole position. I have to keep pushing it to maintain my lead. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way.

I measure myself on time trials, and can stroke my ego there, but I race online because I want the challenge and the boost keeps me driving on edge the whole race.

Boost is there. I don't know how many times people need to prove it. It's uncessessary. I think we can all agree it's there. Our next step is understanding how it works. And the weight theory seems the best.

Well said! 👍

magburner, and anyone else interested in further investigating and testing out the weight handicap theory. I wonder if one could isolate the effect by comparing the average effects under similar online race conditions using two cars where a change in weight would affect one car more than the other.

For instance, removing or adding a hundred kilograms from/to the Mercedes-Benz SL 55 AMG is not going to have nearly the same impact on the car's performance as it would removing or adding a hundred kilograms from/to the Lotus Elise.

Now it may also be that the handicap takes things like that into account, and adds/subtracts a percentage of the car's weight rather than a specific amount... in which case we would be back to square one, without having a clear way of identifying exactly what is going on.

 

[MustakeSVT]

I've read quite a bit of this thread and I wanted to check it out myself. I run the F1 at Fuji all the time so I know I run consistent 1:16 to 1:17 laps. I went to free run and warmed up and the lap times were right in that average.

I started a race and planned to race hard out of the gate, but on the fist lap my dog ran through the living room and tripped on the USB cable and it came unplugged from the extension. I went way off the track and hit a wall while I was frantically cussing at the dog and plugging it back in.

I was the host so I didn't want to quit and I just started driving. I ran 1:14 to 1:15's the rest of the race and actually caught up and placed second. I know for a fact that I cannot run 1:14's in free run so there is something in place here and after doing that I think it has to do with grip. On the fourth lap my curiosity was getting to me so I started really pushing it into corners and the car would not break loose. My brakes also seemed to improve a lot.

I'm confident there is something going on because this is the only race I've run for a long time and I have a bunch of laps logged and I know my average lap times.

I think this needs to be addressed. It's crappy. If you screw up then you should have to pay.

 

[Vaxen]

I think many posters here are misunderstanding DN's main argument. He's not claiming there is no boost: he's claiming that there's no proof of boost. Further, he's asking that those claiming boost provide proof to back up their claims. This is not an unreasonable stance to take. However, providing proof is actually quite difficult, because natural variations between drivers, and even the same driver from lap to lap and in traffic and out mean that much of the variation claimed as boost is within the same margin of error for a given player's performance. This reduces the value of anecdotal evidence since there are two explanations which fit the facts: (1) there is a boost, or (2) the player in question had a "golden" lap.

All that aside, I'm one of those who believe that there is a boost, and that it is significant (3-5% boost/penalty is very significant in this arena). I don't mind the boost that much, but I do object to the penalty (it's caused me to miss a brake zone on more than one occasion, sometimes with catastrophic results). This in turn forces me to drive more tentatively while in front, which can be aggravating.

I do put a lot of stock in the observations of players like Sphinx, who has hotlapped enough to be able to turn extremely consistent lap times, such that his margin of error is far lower than the measured boost. It's fun to examine specific theories such as Magburner's weight penalty and see how they fit the observations of others and yourself.

Anyway, it would be interesting to try to prove the theory of online boost in a way that would silence the skeptics. Designing a test which controls for human (driver) error is the real challenging part.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

. For those getting rowdy and pissed off over this....If you want to measure your time, then understand you can choose to do that by playing time trials.

The problem is that you can't go with your tuned car into timetrial, because its wether limited to S2 tires or by pp.

I think the next step should be to find out how to get rid off that unholy arcade boost.
I want to catch up on my own and also want my laptimes recorded for each race!
Thats how it goes in REAL life too.

 

[Sphinx]

I think many posters here are misunderstanding DN's main argument. He's not claiming there is no boost: he's claiming that there's no proof of boost. .

Yes, I'm sure we all understand that, but it hasn't always been like that:

Spoiler

That's because there is no boost.

(I put it in spoilers so as not to shatter anyone's fragile fantasies. )

At least he has conceded somewhat since then (6 days ago).

 

[Vaxen]

Yes, I'm sure we all understand that, but it's not always been like that:

Fair enough! 👍

At least he has conceded somewhat since then (6 days ago).

Time to declare victory then!

 

[Stevisiov]

I personally think it isn't just weight that changes, the whole driving dynamic appears to change as if those at the back are running in a more standard physics mode when the front runners are driving in a a somewhat more proffesional physics mode.

I am aware this seems a little odd but after a while of front running follwed by intentionally hanging back in last place I couldn't help feeling that the driving felt very similar to the standard physics mode. Try out and then have a go comparing it to standard physics mode.

The cars turn in is particularly noticable the car changes direction so easily and maintains extreme traction. Its a different grip than what you get when you reduce the weight of the car. Have a go and see what you think.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Yes, I'm sure we all understand that, but it hasn't always been like that:

So not only did you not get the tongue-in-cheek humor in that post from six days ago, but your arguing today over what you assumed was my opinion from six days ago... wow.

However, if you felt I "conceded", then why are you still trying to argue the point?

*sigh*

EDIT: Actually I see you did get it was a joke:

This isn't the right place for jokes, Digital-Nitrate. Stay on topic please.

In that case why would you claim now that it wasn't a joke? You can't have it both ways you know.


Moving on to pertinent topics:

The problem is that you can't go with your tuned car into timetrial, because its wether limited to S2 tires or by pp.

Except you can in Free Run mode as well as Arcade mode. 👍

 

[slicecom]

Seriously? "I challenge you"... is this High School?

Besides all the variables that you would not be able to account for that would result in it being just another piece of anecdotal evidence, what exactly would it prove??? Geez. I already said that I believe there is some form of handicap, and thanks to magburner, unlike some people he is making a real effort to determine exactly what is going on here. My contention, as already stated is with those that consider anecdotal evidence as unquestionable fact, and those that exaggerate the effects.

Oh well, I guess you are not done trying to bash me into submission.

I think Kazunori Yamauchi himself could tell you that the boost exists and show you the code for it, and you would still try to poke holes in his theory.

 

[vanos2990]

I have good numbers to prove boost effect. In time trial I hit 2:00 flat(my record) in the GT LM, which gives a good even baseline. Now when I'm in first place, pulling away from the pack I run consistently 2:07. Today I waited until the field lapped me and after a flying lap through traffic I hit 1:55 and 1:57(much faster than my timetrial record). Irrefutable evidence... I think that the only way for a fair race is 2 racers that are neck and neck.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I think Kazunori Yamauchi himself could tell you that the boost exists and show you the code for it, and you would still try to poke holes in his theory.

No, nor am I saying it doesn't exist... and your post is right on the verge of being nothing more than a troll in search of a fight. 👎

 

[slicecom]

No, nor am I saying it doesn't exist... and your post is right on the verge of being nothing more than a troll in search of a fight. 👎

Wow, lighten up man! I put a laughing smily infront of it. I was clearly joking. Sorry for hurting your feelings.

 

[Sphinx]

Wow, lighten up man! I put a laughing smily infront of it. I was clearly joking. Sorry for hurting your feelings.

Don't worry about it, I'm sure DN was also joking, again.

By the way, I'll upload that exaggerated video some time tomorrow. 👍