The Sound Update Thread (The Return)

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Not sure I agree:



Neither of them are that close to me.

It's hard to tell given the fact that onboard camera mics probably aren't usually as good as the dedicated equipment game devs use to capture sound. I guess the only way to really tell how good these cars sound in comparison to real life is to have actually heard them with our own ears.
 
It's hard to tell given the fact that onboard camera mics probably aren't usually as good as the dedicated equipment game devs use to capture sound. I guess the only way to really tell how good these cars sound in comparison to real life is to have actually heard them with our own ears.
I've put that thought about the used mics when the real runs were recorded - but i was afraid that it won't convince everyone or won't convince the most on that point.
For example In games like FM4 - i saw them before - digging the mic inside the exhaust of a Ferrari F40.
 
It's hard to tell given the fact that onboard camera mics probably aren't usually as good as the dedicated equipment game devs use to capture sound. I guess the only way to really tell how good these cars sound in comparison to real life is to have actually heard them with our own ears.

Correct - best comparison is one's own ears. Video quality varies greatly and cannot hold well against what devs use to record the sounds. The real gimmickry though lies in how well those are translated in the game.

I've put that thought about the used mics when the real runs were recorded - but i was afraid that it won't convince everyone or won't convince the most on that point.
For example In games like FM4 - i saw them before - digging the mic inside the exhaust of a Ferrari F40.

Would be nice to see some of that raw and edgy sound character from FM4 being introduced in GTP.

To this day, I am utterly in love with the F40 and F40C sound from FM4.
 
Correct - best comparison is one's own ears. Video quality varies greatly and cannot hold well against what devs use to record the sounds. The real gimmickry though lies in how well those are translated in the game.

There's a lot you can learn from experience and previous comparisons of recordings, and much of the trackside footage is of excellent quality enough to show that none of the examples presented are close in overall execution.

The translation into the game is artistic and is rarely if ever conducted in a 1:1 fashion, the director favouring a memory of an impression over the fidelity of a recording.

In that vein, so often in pCARS development people complained that a certain car sounded wrong, often from memory or YouTube videos, and the developers' response was that they had well executed recordings that depict exactly how the car sounds...

So in essence if your memory of a car differs from that of the person making the game, then it won't sound right to you. Which is a useless situation to be in; nobody (knowingly) accentuates and diminishes aspects of the cars' appearance, why should it be so with the sound? And in the case of any accidental visual defects, we have photographs to work from.

Would be nice to see some of that raw and edgy sound character from FM4 being introduced in GTP.

To this day, I am utterly in love with the F40 and F40C sound from FM4.
FM2 definitely. FM6, maybe. Definitely not FM4.
 
Would be nice to see some of that raw and edgy sound character from FM4 being introduced in GTP.

To this day, I am utterly in love with the F40 and F40C sound from FM4.
Here is your answer at the beginning of this video with other Ferrari's sounds X)

Ferrari F40C is at part ( 7:46 ) in the video below :)

My personal best car sound in FM4 is Chevrolet Corvette C5R X)
Skip to ( 12:10 )
They've nailed the sound right :gtpflag:
 
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Here is your answer at the beginning of this video with other Ferrari's sounds X)

Ferrari F40C is at part ( 7:46 ) in the video below :)

My personal best car sound in FM4 is Chevrolet Corvette C5R X)
Skip to ( 12:10 )
They've nailed the sound right :gtpflag:


Ahh....car sound haven! The manual/w clutch thing though ruins it.
 
having driven about 8 different ferrari's i know the difference more than most. In GT6 the idling sounds are spot on in most cars. However, once you gain revs you lose the loudness of the exhaust. The sound of the F430 is nearly as perfect as you can get for a game in GT6 but you can't feel it like you do IRL. Above 5k rpm in a ferrari is something that you feel in your entire body, not even 7.2 at full blast can come close to it sadly. I haven't played a forza since 3 so I can't really speak for it but there were a few cars in GT6 that were spot on sound wise but it will never translate. Pcars had a lot of sounds really good with the right amount of bass but it still was off at high revs.
 
having driven about 8 different ferrari's i know the difference more than most. In GT6 the idling sounds are spot on in most cars. However, once you gain revs you lose the loudness of the exhaust. The sound of the F430 is nearly as perfect as you can get for a game in GT6 but you can't feel it like you do IRL. Above 5k rpm in a ferrari is something that you feel in your entire body, not even 7.2 at full blast can come close to it sadly. I haven't played a forza since 3 so I can't really speak for it but there were a few cars in GT6 that were spot on sound wise but it will never translate. Pcars had a lot of sounds really good with the right amount of bass but it still was off at high revs.

Forget PCARS and GT6. Play Forza 4, 5 and 6 to check out the Ferrari sounds. Though they did goof some of the Ferrari sounds in 6.
 
having driven about 8 different ferrari's i know the difference more than most. In GT6 the idling sounds are spot on in most cars. However, once you gain revs you lose the loudness of the exhaust. The sound of the F430 is nearly as perfect as you can get for a game in GT6 but you can't feel it like you do IRL. Above 5k rpm in a ferrari is something that you feel in your entire body, not even 7.2 at full blast can come close to it sadly. I haven't played a forza since 3 so I can't really speak for it but there were a few cars in GT6 that were spot on sound wise but it will never translate. Pcars had a lot of sounds really good with the right amount of bass but it still was off at high revs.

The real car feeling that gives that vibration you can feel on the entire body, that will need serious sound system power to replicate :) I don't know the technical terms for it, but sound is not just clarity, tone and volume, there's something that gives the punch on bass, sharpness in treble and that vibration for powerful sound source like jet engine, car sounds, event 4 stroke small displacement motorbike, the pulse that gives life and energy to the sound. That can't be replicated with tv speaker no matter how perfect the sound is to the real thing ( even real life record )

Maybe a high power car audio system can do it, I've been into some cars with serious sound system power, and the energy is there, vibration through the body :D
 
The real car feeling that gives that vibration you can feel on the entire body, that will need serious sound system power to replicate :) I don't know the technical terms for it, but sound is not just clarity, tone and volume, there's something that gives the punch on bass, sharpness in treble and that vibration for powerful sound source like jet engine, car sounds, event 4 stroke small displacement motorbike, the pulse that gives life and energy to the sound. That can't be replicated with tv speaker no matter how perfect the sound is to the real thing ( even real life record )

Maybe a high power car audio system can do it, I've been into some cars with serious sound system power, and the energy is there, vibration through the body :D
If you put it this way - then none of the games will ever have the same feeling as in reality X)
 
The vibrations that you feel in a car are just that: vibrations. Now sound is also just vibrations, in air, so it's kind of the same thing. Whilst you can hear the vibrations of the car to some extent by the way they "transfer" to the air, the real "body feeling" you get is not going to be replicated by any acoustic transducer (i.e. a speaker).

You need a "butt-kicker". But then the sound from the game is usually only the acoustic sound, in that it comes from acoustic recordings, so sending that to a tactile transducer won't feel right. You need the actual car's vibration in a separate channel.

I've had some fun generating such signals, purely for engine and suspension, but have not yet tried feeding it into some proper hardware. :D
 
The vibrations that you feel in a car are just that: vibrations. Now sound is also just vibrations, in air, so it's kind of the same thing. Whilst you can hear the vibrations of the car to some extent by the way they "transfer" to the air, the real "body feeling" you get is not going to be replicated by any acoustic transducer (i.e. a speaker).

You need a "butt-kicker". But then the sound from the game is usually only the acoustic sound, in that it comes from acoustic recordings, so sending that to a tactile transducer won't feel right. You need the actual car's vibration in a separate channel.

I've had some fun generating such signals, purely for engine and suspension, but have not yet tried feeding it into some proper hardware. :D

The exhaust on motor bikes and cars also have distinct pulse/energy to it when you hear it close ( idling 4 stroke V twin on racing muffler for example, the vibration through the air can be really felt ), that also can't be recorded, I don't know what's the name for it, but can the butt kicker replicate that ?
 
The exhaust on motor bikes and cars also have distinct pulse/energy to it when you hear it close ( idling 4 stroke V twin on racing muffler for example, the vibration through the air can be really felt ), that also can't be recorded, I don't know what's the name for it, but can the butt kicker replicate that ?
In short, not really. But also yes, using synthetic signals carefully crafted to give a similar impression as translated through the kicker. I don't know how hard that would be not having access to one.

The pulses felt from an exhaust could easily be bursts of gas flow ("advection"), it's certainly the case with my V-Twin. Then any sharp edges to the acoustic sound itself are technically very high frequency; plus there's the infrasound component to consider as well (an idling 4-stroke engine at, say, 1200 rpm has a fundamental frequency of 10 Hz - you cannot hear a 10 Hz pure tone). Both would be filtered out of / not captured in most recordings and most people have no way of reproducing it anyway.

With a loud enough recording you can get almost the same effect, but at a higher volume than would otherwise be required if it contained the full spectrum, and with an imbalanced, indistinct impression.
 
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The real car feeling that gives that vibration you can feel on the entire body, that will need serious sound system power to replicate :) I don't know the technical terms for it, but sound is not just clarity, tone and volume, there's something that gives the punch on bass, sharpness in treble and that vibration for powerful sound source like jet engine, car sounds, event 4 stroke small displacement motorbike, the pulse that gives life and energy to the sound. That can't be replicated with tv speaker no matter how perfect the sound is to the real thing ( even real life record )

Maybe a high power car audio system can do it, I've been into some cars with serious sound system power, and the energy is there, vibration through the body :D

TV speakers, impossible. A good amp, absolutely. Especially if you happen to have a powerful 7.1 surround amp that comes with high-end wires for that channel separation and frequency range. It's all in the frequency range. DD will accomplish most of the stuff you mentioned in your post, but DTS takes it up a notch.

I have neither! I'm on a hifi amp but an 8-speaker setup, with the mids, satellites and especially woofers cleverly placed to give off bass that you can not only feel but hear as well. The mids and sats also do a great job of letting me hear what the engine and exhaust are doing. I'm literally feeling in my chest and feet what the exhaust is relaying throughout the rev range, thanks to the two woofers. Heavenly feeling. The more you turn up the sound, the better it feels. No distortion or fatigue. Although I have to take it easy on the volume as my room doesn't have the best acoustics, so it can get "echoey". Turning down the decibels on the mids and highs usually counters that.

I will again use FM4 as an example - the samples really bring your sound system alive and you feel the grunt of the engine and exhaust. FM5 took that a step further and cleaned up the sound a lot. In FM6, to truly enjoy that visceral feel you need to turn the sound up more and use the "headphones" setting.

I've contemplated many times upgrading to a good 7.1 surround setup to hear and feel racing games truly as the developer intended, but I'm happy with my setup, and just don't want to be spending anymore time than I already am in front of the TV and Xbox. :D
 
So I listened to this new clip on headphones, and there does seem to be several layers for the car been driven now - I hear and upper pitch and lower pitch layers, plus a gear whine, much more subtle

There is also this ducking of the car your driving's sound, when you get close to other cars, so - a bit weird if you ask me

Nice trackside announcer speaker audio on the replay at 2:26
 
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I'm reminded of that old joke about a musician approaching an engineer and, having seen an amp that "goes up to 11", asks him to build him one for himself. A bad engineer says "it doesn't matter what number it goes to, it's an arbitrary scale". A good engineer says "I can build you one that goes to 12!"


DD and DTS are compression schemes that allow multi-channel sound to occupy less bandwidth, the classic case being 5.1 over stereo cabling. You're better off with the raw PCM streams if you've got the hardware. Multi-channel setups with pairwise panning are unphysical, and adding more in that respect achieves nothing - see ambisonics instead, which some devs are beginning to use. A well tuned (almost) ambisonic 5.1 mix eclipses any traditional 7.1.

A good audio-range speaker is a good audio-range speaker. Not that anyone is rocking high-quality infrasound or ultrasound gear, which are important contributors to sound "feel" despite being, by definition, inaudible. Buttkickers help without risking your hearing, supposedly.

No subwoofer is going to shake your seat the way an engine does from halfway across the room, though. Not without causing other issues, anyway...
 
So I listened to this new clip on headphones, and there does seem to be several layers for the car been driven now - I hear and upper pitch and lower pitch layers, plus a gear whine, much more subtle

There is also this ducking of the car your driving's sound, when you get close to other cars, so - a bit weird if you ask me

Nice trackside announcer speaker audio on the replay at 2:26

That sounds so much better, or is it just me?
 
The previous one is too linear. The new one has more depth.
Yes, it's definitely got a new bass layer, makes the old sound sound really weak. I also swear the GTR GT3 in front of it at the beginning sounds different too? More low grumbly flat 6 sounding like the real thing (IK it's not a flat 6, it's just how I describe the sound :P) when previously it was running a sound close to the one used on the Renault RS01.
 
After hearing that E3 build vs the Copperbox one, I can hear there's improvements happening.

Now if they could do that in the space of 2 weeks or so, it makes me wonder what can happen in about 5 months.
 
TV speakers, impossible. A good amp, absolutely. Especially if you happen to have a powerful 7.1 surround amp that comes with high-end wires for that channel separation and frequency range. It's all in the frequency range. DD will accomplish most of the stuff you mentioned in your post, but DTS takes it up a notch.

I have neither! I'm on a hifi amp but an 8-speaker setup, with the mids, satellites and especially woofers cleverly placed to give off bass that you can not only feel but hear as well. The mids and sats also do a great job of letting me hear what the engine and exhaust are doing. I'm literally feeling in my chest and feet what the exhaust is relaying throughout the rev range, thanks to the two woofers. Heavenly feeling. The more you turn up the sound, the better it feels. No distortion or fatigue. Although I have to take it easy on the volume as my room doesn't have the best acoustics, so it can get "echoey". Turning down the decibels on the mids and highs usually counters that.

I will again use FM4 as an example - the samples really bring your sound system alive and you feel the grunt of the engine and exhaust. FM5 took that a step further and cleaned up the sound a lot. In FM6, to truly enjoy that visceral feel you need to turn the sound up more and use the "headphones" setting.

I've contemplated many times upgrading to a good 7.1 surround setup to hear and feel racing games truly as the developer intended, but I'm happy with my setup, and just don't want to be spending anymore time than I already am in front of the TV and Xbox. :D


For me Dolby Digital is crap sounding in games and movies. I have Mordaunt Short speaker set with Harman Kardon AVR, everything is played as is, no tone change/equalizer, and good source sounds natural ( music and movies ). PS3 games that I play sounds better when comes in DTS format or PCM, DD sounds a lot worse, if a game only outputs in DD ( no DTS support ), usually I revert to PCM.

A game like Alien Isolation that can output DST and DD, DTS sounds much better, PCM is even better.

Remember that Vernesca Hill Climb video I posted a few page back, I played that to quite loud volume, and still lacking IMO, no loudness can replace the rumble/vibration and I have high power Mordaunt Short SubWoofer and the recording was great, imagine on video game in DD ..
 
There's an unnatural, constant "bass texture" to the new sound, which they've tried before (and is present to a lesser extent in the old footage), but still no dedicated intake source and little texture variation with throttle position.

That's weird. I mean, they clearly plan to include intake sounds eventually (AES), so the sound engine needs to be able to handle the extra streams and virtual sources etc., and the cars need rigging with emitters (or their equivalents), so if you're creating new content as a stopgap for GTS why not target that mix? Most odd.

The new gear whine sound is nice and refined.

The GTR is much louder, drowning out the player's car - so the "living room" dynamic range setting lives on and still causes issues.
 
After hearing that E3 build vs the Copperbox one, I can hear there's improvements happening.

Now if they could do that in the space of 2 weeks or so, it makes me wonder what can happen in about 5 months.
Well it depends on how far they intend to go really. For all we know they could be satisfied with how that R8 sounds now and just stop there.
 
If more cars develop sound wise in the way the R8 has then I will be a lot more pleased with this game than I have recently been.
 
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