The Sound Update Thread (The Return)

[mister dog]

How do we know that GTS has AES implemented? And what exactly does AES do for the game.

Yes indeed everybody seems to talk about this like it's official. Is there a genuine source mentioning this new 'revolutionary' system?

 

[trustjab]

I have hopes for the sound. Clearly it's not complete since Kaz said as much. If he can get it done then it should surprise us. There's sounds missing from the direct feed videos of GTSport that even GT6 had. The downshifts weren't great in GT6, but you knew there was a slight pause in between the shifts thanks to the sound. The GTSport videos don't even have that. So I think there's obviously more to come. Only certain cars sounded close to what they should be. The 458 GT3 was one, but was quiet and missing other components to it. I think Kaz's team have heard all there is to hear on the complaints. Now we just hold on until we get the game or more (updated) video.

 

[Griffith500]

How do we know that GTS has AES implemented? And what exactly does AES do for the game.

Well "we" don't, but I'm pretty sure I heard it on the Volkswagen VGT in the London livestream at the Nürburgring - that is, it sounded just like it did in GT6.

Yes indeed everybody seems to talk about this like it's official. Is there a genuine source mentioning this new 'revolutionary' system?

No. There's only stuff Kaz said before GT6 released. I'm personally in no doubt, but I know that doesn't help you.

Examples:

And its also pains me that there are no sound engineers around anymore that can “make sound”.
20 years ago, there was a culture of sound synthesizers, where it was like “if you can’t record it, make it”. But since the advent of samplers, there are less and less people nowadays that are able to trace back sounds to their original principles of creation, and synthesize sounds that sound authentic.

Right now we are in the midst of making improvements regarding these issues, and I think we’ll be able to come up with results soon, but still there just isn’t enough staff.

Pitstop blog - Sound Part 3 (July 2014).

Actually, we are doing research right now to generate the sounds in a completely different way. I’m not sure if it is actually going to make it into GT6 in time yet, but we’ll have to see.

I know there were some rumors that the sound for GT wasn’t recorded with the engine under load. That was actually true until GT4 was produced, but for GT5 all of the sounds that we’ve taken were from cars that were on a dynamometer and placed under load.

That’s not the whole of the problem, though, and obviously that’s not good enough for GT6 and for the future. We’ve been working on a new system for generating sounds for a few years now, we just haven’t made that breakthrough yet, and we’re still working. That’s what we’re aiming for – to make that breakthrough – so that we have something of a high quality to show.

GTPlanet's interview with Kaz at E3 2013.

There's also the incidental info that was dug up in the game files, such as only those particular cars having a particular kind of sound (Red Bull, Senna, some VGT cars) had what came to be known as "AES" files (as well as samples), and those files contained human-readable strings consistent with "completely different" synthesis.

See here.
Also the continual change of that particular file format through updates.

 

[mister dog]

Cheers @Griffith500 I already had a hunch you had something to do with it

I'm still in doubt there's any fancy stuff going on at all though, you've been talking about this since years but the updated sounds sound on par with the competition at best.

 

[Griffith500]

Cheers @Griffith500 I already had a hunch you had something to do with it

I'm still in doubt there's any fancy stuff going on at all though, you've been talking about this since years but the updated sounds sound on par with the competition at best.

Which really is the best compliment you could give.

Although others would disagree that they're on par, myself included.

The point is not to be "on par", not at first, but to produce something of creative worth. Which will make sense once you get to play with the flexibility such a system offers - and then I'm sure benchmarks will be shifted based on something you'd never considered before. That said it won't appeal to everyone, in that the value it adds won't be wanted by some, but it doesn't have to.

 

[ZEROTHEKNIGHT]

Which really is the best compliment you could give.

Although others would disagree that they're on par, myself included.

The point is not to be "on par", not at first, but to produce something of creative worth. Which will make sense once you get to play with the flexibility such a system offers - and then I'm sure benchmarks will be shifted based on something you'd never considered before. That said it won't appeal to everyone, in that the value it adds won't be wanted by some, but it doesn't have to.

This is very complicated - but i think i can at least understand what you're trying to explain when it comes to the engines revolutions changes based on many aspects which i find it fun to read X)
Thanks for taking your time to light us with your knowledge which should be written in an expert books & the sound directors should take notes on certain circumstances based on your explanations
PS : i was serious on my statement X)

 

[Griffith500]

Just re-read the news article about the sound engine and noted this little nugget:

GTPlanet’s own Jordan Greer felt that the Ferrari 458 Italia in particular sounded very nice with Yamauchi agreeing. He also pointed out that the Lotus Evora was another example of a car which sounded better under the new sound system being implemented on the road to release.

Look out for footage of the Evora, which will show the new sound engine’s potential.

So does this mean that Jordan thinks the new Evora sounds good, or did Kaz specifically say that the Evora uses "the new sound engine"?

I'd have thought they were all using the new engine, it doesn't make sense to mix old and new in that context. AES is just a buffer filler, it doesn't care what engine it's providing for, so that's not it.

Can anyone possibly clarify? @Jordan @Brend

 

[Brend]

Just re-read the news article about the sound engine and noted this little nugget:




So does this mean that Jordan thinks the new Evora sounds good, or did Kaz specifically say that the Evora uses "the new sound engine"?

I'd have thought they were all using the new engine, it doesn't make sense to mix old and new in that context. AES is just a buffer filler, it doesn't care what engine it's providing for, so that's not it.

Can anyone possibly clarify? @Jordan @Brend

Translator-San made specific mention that the Evora was a nice sounding car when translating what Kazunori said to Jordan. The exact quote from the interview is:

T-san: So the system is completely new. But the sound material is not completely changed to the new material. So I think when you listen to some of the cars now, there are some cars that sound really good, and some cars that don't.
Jordan: Yes, I noticed that as well. 458...really, really good. I liked that.
T-san: And the Lotus Evora should sound great as well.

Take from that what you will.

 

[Griffith500]

Translator-San made specific mention that the Evora was a nice sounding car when translating what Kazunori said to Jordan. The exact quote from the interview is:

T-san: So the system is completely new. But the sound material is not completely changed to the new material. So I think when you listen to some of the cars now, there are some cars that sound really good, and some cars that don't.
Jordan: Yes, I noticed that as well. 458...really, really good. I liked that.
T-san: And the Lotus Evora should sound great as well.

Take from that what you will.

Thanks for that. I take it that the Evora has new samples, like the 458, then.

 

[Speedster911]

Translator-San made specific mention that the Evora was a nice sounding car when translating what Kazunori said to Jordan. The exact quote from the interview is:

T-san: So the system is completely new. But the sound material is not completely changed to the new material. So I think when you listen to some of the cars now, there are some cars that sound really good, and some cars that don't.
Jordan: Yes, I noticed that as well. 458...really, really good. I liked that.
T-san: And the Lotus Evora should sound great as well.

Take from that what you will.

Great... T10 does a hit and miss thing with the car sounds in F6, and GT follows suit. What IS it with these two?!

 

[Viperman240]

Just re-read the news article about the sound engine and noted this little nugget:

So does this mean that Jordan thinks the new Evora sounds good, or did Kaz specifically say that the Evora uses "the new sound engine"?

I'd have thought they were all using the new engine, it doesn't make sense to mix old and new in that context. AES is just a buffer filler, it doesn't care what engine it's providing for, so that's not it.

That pretty much reaffirms my suspicions that I've had than. The way the 458 sounds is the best we will be getting in GTS and that's the par for the rest of the cars in GTS.

This is truly disappointing for me. Yes the car sounds better from previous GT games but it still doesn't hold its own when compared to other sim titles.

 

[Griffith500]

That pretty much reaffirms my suspicions that I've had than. The way the 458 sounds is the best we will be getting in GTS and that's the par for the rest of the cars in GTS.

This is truly disappointing for me. Yes the car sounds better from previous GT games but it still doesn't hold its own when compared to other sim titles.

Yep.

In a way, it's the stop gap we should have had on PS3 - but the sheer number of cars would have made that daunting, and a little disappointing for PD given what they had in prototype at that time.

Hopefully now they can focus on getting the quality where it needs to be instead of just trying to get it to run at all.

 

[gtone339]

The Audi R18 towards the end of the video has been improved, as have some of the other cars in GTS.

You are absolutely correct! 👍

GT Sport gameplay - Audi R18:

 

[ZEROTHEKNIGHT]

Horray !!! Yes !!!
That's the sound of the Audi R18 Turbo Deisel engine !!!
Listen to it in this video ( skip FM4 video to 7:38 )
Note : listen to both videos one by one to compare X)
Reminder : both games sound director is the same guy behind FM4 engines sounds X)

 

[RACECAR]

Horray !!! Yes !!!
That's the sound of the Audi R18 Turbo Deisel engine !!!
Listen to it in this video ( skip FM4 video to 7:38 )
Note : listen to both videos one by one to compare X)
Reminder : both games sound director is the same guy behind FM4 engines sounds X)

Not sure I agree:



Neither of them are that close to me.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

It is an improvement over GT6 for sure, but still doesn't hold a candle to the kings of sound, RaceRoom Racing Experience:

 

[RACECAR]

Doesn't sound all that close either. Abit disappointing that there still hasn't been anyone to nail the details of the V6 TDI (The droning idle, the low rev chattering, etc)


Another real life example:

 

[cocoflowa]

It is an improvement over GT6 for sure, but still doesn't hold a candle to the kings of sound, RaceRoom Racing Experience:

I don't get it why someone can do this thing and PD with lots of money can't? PD can't even do 720 degrees steering.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Doesn't sound all that close either. Abit disappointing that there still hasn't been anyone to nail the details of the V6 TDI (The droning idle, the low rev chattering, etc)


Another real life example:

Well there's Assetto Corsa, which manages to capture the flywheel hybrid system's sounds as well. The R18 in this game is a mod though, and usually they rip the sound straight from youtube recordings (so no wonder it's exactly the same). It's also not the exact car as above, and I don't follow WEC enough to know if there's a difference.



The R3E sound could be limited by physics engine. Because it is still based on rFactor's ISImotor and I don't think they have support for the complex hybrid systems found in these LMPs, so there could be a limit to the number of sound channels. Assetto being a much newer sim with a more flexible physics engine obviously has the capabilities to implement more.

Question is, can GT's AES do the same?

EDIT: Unrelated, but this is my 3,650th post! I was expecting to hit it in September this year, as that will be my 10th Anniversary at GTP (10 years = 3,650 days). It's 3 months early because of all the GT Sport hype inflating my post count in the last few weeks lol.

 

[ZEROTHEKNIGHT]

Doesn't sound all that close either. Abit disappointing that there still hasn't been anyone to nail the details of the V6 TDI (The droning idle, the low rev chattering, etc)


Another real life example:

You beat me to it !!! XD
I listened to FM4 & the real one - to me FM4 is like - if not 70% then maybe 80% close.
About onboard of the Audi R18 Ultra - the Ultra as i know is different than TDI.

 

[Toysuprahot]

You are absolutely correct! 👍

GT Sport gameplay - Audi R18:

Alright folks head to 1:40. I cannot believe the AI improved through all these years by 0%. Also GT Sport, a more "FIA" focused game, allows you to race against fictional cars with an audi R18 in the downtown of Tokyo. Totally legit if you ask me.

 

[ZEROTHEKNIGHT]

I just made a direct comparison video between game & reality - reminding FM4 used 3rd person view while reality was in cockpit.
Here it is :
Note : if video didn't worked please let me know.
Note #2 : the video was done on the fly X)

 

[GranTurismo guy]

Doesn't sound all that close either. Abit disappointing that there still hasn't been anyone to nail the details of the V6 TDI (The droning idle, the low rev chattering, etc)


Another real life example:

It seems you are placing focus on details here instead of the engine note itself, which just goes to show that they are two very separate aspects of a car sound, and concentration on one can leave the other lacking.

 

[ZEROTHEKNIGHT]

It seems you are placing focus on details here instead of the engine note itself, which just goes to show that they are two very separate aspects of a car sound, and concentration on one can leave the other lacking.

Almost exactly what was on my mind
If i'm not mistaken - that is what i wanted to be noticed in my comparison video & you've nearly nailed my thoughts
Thanks for pointing this out!
( Hand shake )

 

[Griffith500]

The problem with Diesels is that, in addition to the need to directly control intake, exhaust and general "background" engine noise, you now have a fourth interactive layer that requires independent control. That being the sound of autoignition coming from the cylinders within the engine block - the characteristic Diesel "clack".

No game is going to add a dedicated audio channel for the odd car that needs it when run-time resources allocated to sound are traditionally so scant to begin with.

Good luck separating it from recordings, too.


All of the examples focus on the texture of the intake, leading to FM's totally incorrect warbly note, GT's superficially correct growly note (but in the exhaust of a clearly spark ignition engine instead). RR and AC at least try to represent the clackity clack, but it's constant and drowned out by the intake texture, presumably for fear of presenting the car as anything but meaty. The real car's exhaust is heavily muffled and dominated by flow noise externally. The texture should be something like the old Mazda KL V6s only softer with very little of the rasp, best heard at part throttle on the interior. None of the presented examples achieve that, either.

Another thing is the way the car's structure amplifies the mechanical noise, at some points even sounding like exhaust rasp - it is extremely important in all cars, but is yet another independent sound source to control and mix.

Final fun observation: why do (some of) these implementations have a bouncing rev-limiter and / or exhaust pops?

 

[RACECAR]

It seems you are placing focus on details here instead of the engine note itself, which just goes to show that they are two very separate aspects of a car sound, and concentration on one can leave the other lacking.

I wouldn't so much say that I'm placing focus so much as I'm pointing out what is missing. The main engine note itself is ok yet not quite on point, but I bring those details up because they are still missing. What I'd like eventually is not just part of the experience, I'd like to hear someone for once deliver the complete set.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

I wouldn't so much say that I'm placing focus so much as I'm pointing out what is missing. The main engine note itself is ok yet not quite on point, but I bring those details up because they are still missing. What I'd like eventually is not just part of the experience, I'd like to hear someone for once deliver the complete set.

But I feel that what you are identifying as absent is not exclusive to this car alone, it's an industry issue. Those three different versions of the r18 are great by all racing game standards imo.

I agree it would be nice to have all the parts to complete the package.

 

[Speedster911]

It is an improvement over GT6 for sure, but still doesn't hold a candle to the kings of sound, RaceRoom Racing Experience:

Doesn't sound all that close either. Abit disappointing that there still hasn't been anyone to nail the details of the V6 TDI (The droning idle, the low rev chattering, etc)


Another real life example:

Well there's Assetto Corsa, which manages to capture the flywheel hybrid system's sounds as well. The R18 in this game is a mod though, and usually they rip the sound straight from youtube recordings (so no wonder it's exactly the same). It's also not the exact car as above, and I don't follow WEC enough to know if there's a difference.



The R3E sound could be limited by physics engine. Because it is still based on rFactor's ISImotor and I don't think they have support for the complex hybrid systems found in these LMPs, so there could be a limit to the number of sound channels. Assetto being a much newer sim with a more flexible physics engine obviously has the capabilities to implement more.

Question is, can GT's AES do the same?

EDIT: Unrelated, but this is my 3,650th post! I was expecting to hit it in September this year, as that will be my 10th Anniversary at GTP (10 years = 3,650 days). It's 3 months early because of all the GT Sport hype inflating my post count in the last few weeks lol.

Right, so how does the FM6 sound stack up? Pretty close to the real thing although I think the trans whine needs to stand out more. The real-life example doesn't have good audio quality - it's too loud/amplified and the turbo whoosh and tranny whine sounds are nearly absent.

 

[Prenny]

Horray !!! Yes !!!
That's the sound of the Audi R18 Turbo Deisel engine !!!
Listen to it in this video ( skip FM4 video to 7:38 )
Note : listen to both videos one by one to compare X)
Reminder : both games sound director is the same guy behind FM4 engines sounds X)

Gran Turismo Sport sounds closer (Atleast for me) but still inaccurate.

 

[RACECAR]

Right, so how does the FM6 sound stack up? Pretty close to the real thing although I think the trans whine needs to stand out more. The real-life example doesn't have good audio quality - it's too loud/amplified and the turbo whoosh and tranny whine sounds are nearly absent.

Sadly, its the only one I could find of the original R18 TDI that didn't have talking in it. I did use one of the R18 Ultra since its more or less uses the same V6 without the Hybrid drive train but again, only managed to find one without talking in it.