The Sound Update Thread (The Return)

  • Thread starter TayeezSA
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Speedster911
I know this is going a little off-topic but you guys are maestros when it comes to replicating REAL car audio in a game. I just wanted to go on record again and announce that out aloud!

It is a real privilege to see a Codies audio engineer share insights on the forum. Between you and me, even if PD were to "borrow" some guys from Codies and T10 combined, they might not get it right, because to them it is just not as important as graphics and gameplay..
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Thank you :) You know, for us, it's been a long process getting to where we are now. 6 years from starting on DiRT2 and pretty much starting from scratch with everything audio (assets and technology) to Rally coming out last year. And of course during that time we have more processor capability, sound recorders with more channel inputs etc. etc. Some of it is pure hard work, some of it is natural evolution ;)

No, you're right. I know of one developer desperate to move to a granular engine audio system, but the bosses won't allow it because they "sell enough units with the sound as it is" = no need to allocate more budget to it.
 
Hello again GTPlanet, this is the first time I'm posting on here since the release of GT5. I feel like I should put in my 2 cents concerning the audio.

I'm really disappointed in the direction PD is going in with the way the cars sound in GTS (and other aspects of the game as well). According to KZ “So the system is completely new. But the sound material is not completely changed to the new material. So I think when you listen to some of the cars now, there are some cars that sound really good, and some cars that don’t.”

Where have we heard this before? This is the same song and dance again with Kaz, he's said this same exact thing time and time again in the past. That the sounds in GT 5 and 6 were just placeholder and that they wouldn't be in the final game. Lo and behold they were in the final release of both games, so then he said it would updated and patched, which didn't really happen. The sounds for certain cars were improved slightly but that's about it, all this to me feels like déjà vu all over again.

There can only be so many times you can listen to what he says and take his word for it, back then I believed him and trusted him. I was being optimistic then, but I won't fall for it anymore I'm just being realistic now.

So if I were to take his word for it now, that this new system isn't fully implemented that the cars that sound "good" like the Ferrari, that's how its going to sound when the game comes out meaning that car got the new sound system treatment. But at the same time the few cars that don't sound good right now, those are the cars that are going to get "updated" and sound on par with the Ferrari? To me, that's what it sounds like he is saying.

If that's the case, then oh boy :nervous:. I don't even like the way the Ferrari sounds, yes its an improvement over past GT games but that's not saying much. The car sounds and behaves exactly like it did in past GT games minus the vacuum sounds but with added bass to the revs. There is still so many elements missing in the audio of this car and the rest of them. The biggest one to me is the feeling of the car, it doesn't feel like its actually racing. I don't see many people bring that up.

In GTS and for that matter all previous GT games, the cars never felt like they were actually racing. The engine notes always felt liner and static, it didn't feel like you had your foot pressed all the way down on the gas pedal. The cars don't feel like they're being pushed to their limits, as if there is no weight behind the movement of what the cars are doing. You don't hear the engine struggle going uphill or anything, it just feels lifeless. Look at Dirt Rally for example, those cars sound on point and you can tell a lot of time and effort went into the sound design of the cars 👍. That's also not including all the other sound effects that's missing that many of you have already pointed out, so I wont be saying those things as you guys already got that covered.

Sorry that I made this such a long post and sorry if you take this as me as bashing the game. All I want is for this franchise to improve and be great again. Without criticism this game would never improve and just praising it would never make the game grow from where it currently is.
 
madfiddler
100 cars... and pretty much 1 person doing the work? I've always said this is a job for a team of people. People have commented on the great overall sound in DiRT Rally. Well, that's not one person and it's a heck of a lot less than 100 cars. We're starting to hear some really nice improvements now, but you can't expect miracles in such a short time frame. This is a failing of PD's management and their lack of understanding of audio development, not the people doing the job.
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Lookie here:

http://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/fonsecker-sound-pack-part-1.7226/

http://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/fonsecker-sound-pack-part-2.10230/

One dude creating sound mods for almost 30 cars in his spare time. Imagine if they payed him to do a full time job? The Forza guy is a welcome addition to finally sort things out, but you don't believe he's all by himself no? I bet he has his say over the PD employees that went scouting for hoovers before also :P
 
Viperman240
Without criticism this game would never improve and just praising it would never make the game grow from where it currently is.
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I agree. Though it seems to be reaching the point where if Polyphony are intent on blissfully running their game into the ground (not saying they definitely are) then maybe we should let them.

it would be kinda sad to see, but the end result could be fertile soil for a new, better (sounding) racing franchise to grow in. Think of it as a forest fire that burns down a gnarly, sick forest paving the way for a new, healthier one.
 
mister dog
Lookie here:
http://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/fonsecker-sound-pack-part-1.7226/
http://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/fonsecker-sound-pack-part-2.10230/

One dude creating sound mods for almost 30 cars in his spare time. Imagine if they payed him to do a full time job? The Forza guy is a welcome addition to finally sort things out, but you don't believe he's all by himself no? I bet he has his say over the PD employees that went scouting for hoovers before also :P
Click to expand...

I don't think that's a fair comparison, at least regarding what I was saying regarding DiRT since our process starts with sourcing a vehicle, recording it on track, spending a LOT of time getting that source recording in to something that's useable to turn into a game asset. Quite a longer process compared to using other people's videos as the source for the asset.
 
madfiddler
I don't think that's a fair comparison, at least regarding what I was saying regarding DiRT since our process starts with sourcing a vehicle, recording it on track, spending a LOT of time getting that source recording in to something that's useable to turn into a game asset. Quite a longer process compared to using other people's videos as the source for the asset.
Click to expand...
True, but depending on the available budget anything is possible especially if Sony is sponsoring you. Process wise it's amazing what one guy can come up with just by altering files no? Bet most people wouldn't even notice the difference between his work and what was recorded on the spot professionally.
 
Without knowing how much time the guy spent, I can't really compare his achievements with anyone else, except to say they're obviously good. But he may have spent seven evenings a week on one vehicle. One issue for development teams is the legality of what modders do... in that it is illegal since you're exploiting someone else's copyright material - be it the cameraman or whomever. What I'm saying is, games companies cannot do what the modders do because they're not allowed to.

You could also take Race Room and a great example of what one person can do btw, but again it's not in the same numbers of GT's range of cars.

Anything is possible with the budget, but you need the mindset from the management as well to let it happen.

I stand by what I said that working on GT is way more than a job for one person.
 
madfiddler
Anything is possible with the budget, but you need the mindset from the management as well to let it happen.
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Indeed, since '98 that hasn't been much of a priority to PD, hence the mountain they need to climb now to get it on an acceptable level for today's standards.

And sound isn't the only aspect of their game that is in this dire situation, due to Kaz seemingly putting his design focus on one particular aspect whilst he's ignoring pretty much everything else. It just pisses me off that they are sponsored by Sony to go on like this with all the marketing bells and whistles that come with it, whilst many other small studios have to scramble for cash on a fraction of the budget and they do manage to deliver a good package.
 
GTPorsche
That's not the original GT2 sound. It's close though.



Not disputing the point you're making though. The sounds are dull and flat compared to how they had been.
Click to expand...


The music makes it hard to hear the sound in that vid. There's short time during the countdown before the music starts and it sounds pretty similar to the one I posted (albeit in lower volume).

But yeah, my point still stands. The Cobra in GT2 had that rough carburettor sound and the one in GT6 sounds flat like every generic V8 in the game (IIRC the if you put racing exhaust on a C6 Z06/ZR1 it will sound the same).
 
citroengt1
Some Fonsecker Sound Mod examples:
Skip to 2:15 for high speed passes.
Click to expand...


Absolutely incredible!

Mind blown. :dopey:

Viperman240
Hello again GTPlanet, this is the first time I'm posting on here since the release of GT5. I feel like I should put in my 2 cents concerning the audio.

I'm really disappointed in the direction PD is going in with the way the cars sound in GTS (and other aspects of the game as well). According to KZ “So the system is completely new. But the sound material is not completely changed to the new material. So I think when you listen to some of the cars now, there are some cars that sound really good, and some cars that don’t.”

Where have we heard this before? This is the same song and dance again with Kaz, he's said this same exact thing time and time again in the past. That the sounds in GT 5 and 6 were just placeholder and that they wouldn't be in the final game. Lo and behold they were in the final release of both games, so then he said it would updated and patched, which didn't really happen. The sounds for certain cars were improved slightly but that's about it, all this to me feels like déjà vu all over again.

There can only be so many times you can listen to what he says and take his word for it, back then I believed him and trusted him. I was being optimistic then, but I won't fall for it anymore I'm just being realistic now.

So if I were to take his word for it now, that this new system isn't fully implemented that the cars that sound "good" like the Ferrari, that's how its going to sound when the game comes out meaning that car got the new sound system treatment. But at the same time the few cars that don't sound good right now, those are the cars that are going to get "updated" and sound on par with the Ferrari? To me, that's what it sounds like he is saying.

If that's the case, then oh boy :nervous:. I don't even like the way the Ferrari sounds, yes its an improvement over past GT games but that's not saying much. The car sounds and behaves exactly like it did in past GT games minus the vacuum sounds but with added bass to the revs. There is still so many elements missing in the audio of this car and the rest of them. The biggest one to me is the feeling of the car, it doesn't feel like its actually racing. I don't see many people bring that up.

In GTS and for that matter all previous GT games, the cars never felt like they were actually racing. The engine notes always felt liner and static, it didn't feel like you had your foot pressed all the way down on the gas pedal. The cars don't feel like they're being pushed to their limits, as if there is no weight behind the movement of what the cars are doing. You don't hear the engine struggle going uphill or anything, it just feels lifeless. Look at Dirt Rally for example, those cars sound on point and you can tell a lot of time and effort went into the sound design of the cars 👍. That's also not including all the other sound effects that's missing that many of you have already pointed out, so I wont be saying those things as you guys already got that covered.

Sorry that I made this such a long post and sorry if you take this as me as bashing the game. All I want is for this franchise to improve and be great again. Without criticism this game would never improve and just praising it would never make the game grow from where it currently is.
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True say Viperman! Very well said.

But what can one do? Sony and Kaz will most likely continue down this road because all they are concerned with are sales. As long as people are willing to *accept* sub-standard sounds as realistic and good, the game will sell. Fact.
 
Do you guys remember this old school game ? X)
While some cars doesn't sounds right but there are some good once X)

With this insane corvette sound X)

Also this X)
Test Drive Le Mans ( SEGA Dreamcast Ver )
 
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Johnnypenso
Game Stock Car. It's now in Automobilista by the same studio, Reiza.
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Here's a sample of the recently released boxer cup in AMS:



Or have the Formula V10 for more sound orgasms:



This game embodies the opposite of what PD is doing, tiny budget but they have a physics/FFB guru (Niels Heusinkveld), Sounds are absolutely excellent, realistic race settings, day/night transitions you name it it's in there. Only the eye candy is not up to par with what the big studios can manage but you don't notice at all just because of the experience it offers. Runs on low grade PC's too.

Anyhow enough talking, i think i'll go boot it up :P
 
Yeah i would agree that Automobilista can, at this point in time, offer more amusement
then GT Sport since the sounds are more real.
But also, you can notice that the sound is repetitive. No matter if you are going
down or uphill the engine pitch is the same.

This is what AES system can do in GT Sport, only thing is they need nicely modeled sounds.
 
mister dog
Here's a sample of the recently released boxer cup in AMS:



Or have the Formula V10 for more sound orgasms:



This game embodies the opposite of what PD is doing, tiny budget but they have a physics/FFB guru (Niels Heusinkveld), Sounds are absolutely excellent, realistic race settings, day/night transitions you name it it's in there. Only the eye candy is not up to par with what the big studios can manage but you don't notice at all just because of the experience it offers. Runs on low grade PC's too.

Anyhow enough talking, i think i'll go boot it up :P
Click to expand...


Superb!

Shame on the big budget developers for not paying more attention to sound.
 
It does sound good; more proof that a high resolution control scheme is of high importance.

Sometimes it takes an isolated, determined individual to make the necessary changes. In this case, I suspect it was motivated by the gear wobble - SMS tweaked their gear wobbles to fit in their control scheme, which is backwards.


Sadly, in practice, the gear wobbles are annoying as hell through their fixed repetitiveness. The (single) mass spring model, lauded though it be, is not enough - it needs to be a network, like iRacing. They could at least make the realisation that the equivalent stiffness and equivalent mass are different in every gear, if they are going to ignore secondary oscillations...

I wonder if the wobble affects the physics? I can hear it's triggered at different times, at least, although it still sounds the same.
 
Griffith500
It does sound good; more proof that a high resolution control scheme is of high importance.

Sometimes it takes an isolated, determined individual to make the necessary changes. In this case, I suspect it was motivated by the gear wobble - SMS tweaked their gear wobbles to fit in their control scheme, which is backwards.


Sadly, in practice, the gear wobbles are annoying as hell through their fixed repetitiveness. The (single) mass spring model, lauded though it be, is not enough - it needs to be a network, like iRacing. They could at least make the realisation that the equivalent stiffness and equivalent mass are different in every gear, if they are going to ignore secondary oscillations...

I wonder if the wobble affects the physics? I can hear it's triggered at different times, at least, although it still sounds the same.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if its relevant but PCARS gear whine is annoying. Every single car in the game has it, even stock road cars that have fixed, non-adjustable gear ratios.

Related: F4 had the trans whine being introduced after upgrading to a race transmission. That was removed in F5 and 6. Odd, eh?

Pardon the off-topic folks!
 
citroengt1
Yeah i would agree that Automobilista can, at this point in time, offer more amusement
then GT Sport since the sounds are more real.
But also, you can notice that the sound is repetitive. No matter if you are going
down or uphill the engine pitch is the same.

This is what AES system can do in GT Sport, only thing is they need nicely modeled sounds.
Click to expand...

How do we know that GTS has AES implemented? And what exactly does AES do for the game.
 

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