The top times seem impossible

  • Thread starter Menown
  • 181 comments
  • 18,264 views
There you go ;)



"I'm so quick round the track because I don't know how to drive it slowly." someone had once told me.

Pretty much sums it up, but doesn't really help.

What I personally discovered over the years playing that type of game, going faster usually means going slower.

You want to have a very tidy line going into the corner, so that in turn you'll be able to exit it clean and accelerate as soon as possible. You'll lose more time on the following straight by going too fast in the corner than going too slow into the corner in the first place.

Braking wins more races (or gets good times) than stomping the throttle.

Try to get into the rhythm of the track, and enjoy if you get clean and very smooth corners rather than chasing best times. When you became smooth, fast is the consequence.

Good luck!
 
This may be well known to almost everyone else, but for a GT newbie like me I discovered a great way to improve your lap times.

My best time was 1.50.100 and I was hitting a wall, metaphorically and on occasion, literally. Occasionally I'd be 1/10 up, or down, more often than not high 1.50s or low 1.51s. Then I realised something, kind of obvious when you think about it, but....

Don't play with the volume down.

I had my PS3 turned down, audible but soft. Turned it up to normal volume and the audible feedback instantly improved so I could begin to hear where the limit of grip was much earlier. Did a 1.50.033. That was annoying, I really thought I'd cracked 1.49. But no. The next lap saw me 0.1 ahead, enough to break my record. But of course I lost it on the final sector, 0.05 down. Concentrated and while powering towards the bricks with nothing better to do had a look at that ghost and he's juuust behind me! Fantastic, that has to be enough, surely, and indeed my record was broken...by 0.30 to make a 1.50.003. You HAVE to be kidding! That made about 10 laps between 1.50.000 and 1.50.100. So I give the game a rest and come back.

Next session, three laps in the first few turns feel great and so I sneak a look at the my ghost. The bugger is ahead and that made me angry as I thought I'd done so well. Also made me focus and by the hairpin I was -0.05. Somehow I aced those last corners and the straight to make 1.49.895. Mission accomplished and I do think the extra volume helped.

Do I bother try for the 1.48s? I had to correct a little slide on Turn 2, missed the apex on Turn 4 and made various other errors, so could probably find another 0.3 from 1 to 5, and another 0.5 from 8-11. So it's not impossible but where do you stop?

I now await Biggles to tell me he's made 1.49.894.
 
ItsHim
There you go ;)



"I'm so quick round the track because I don't know how to drive it slowly." someone had once told me.

Pretty much sums it up, but doesn't really help.

What I personally discovered over the years playing that type of game, going faster usually means going slower.

You want to have a very tidy line going into the corner, so that in turn you'll be able to exit it clean and accelerate as soon as possible. You'll lose more time on the following straight by going too fast in the corner than going too slow into the corner in the first place.

Braking wins more races (or gets good times) than stomping the throttle.

Try to get into the rhythm of the track, and enjoy if you get clean and very smooth corners rather than chasing best times. When you became smooth, fast is the consequence.

Good luck!
Click to expand...


well said 👍
 
raceur
Don't know what your time is Biggles, but I bet it seems equally impossible to 90% of the people who have tried this game. In fact, merely driving a complete lap in the Normal seems impossible to some!

I am not going to make a 1.47 but I believe most people, if they are patient enough could get a Top 20 time. May take weeks, possibly months, but it's not impossible. The difference between the top drivers and the Rest is that the best guys can go straight out and do that, everyone else struggles their way there. The reason I'm not going to make a 1.47 is because I'm going to run out of time and patience.

Right now I'm at 1.50.100 and I know I can do a 1.49, but the 1.48s seem out of reach. Except when I do the 1.49.800 I know I can, then I can take another 0.1 off that. Then it's 'only' 0.7 to 1.48 and what was I thinking that the 1.50s were difficult a couple of days ago when my best was a mid 1.51 !
Click to expand...
A top 20 time where? France? or the US? Mexico probably has the worst field.
And you'll be surprised how much practice (and a wheel) you'd need to match the top 20 times where the top 20 are all fast.
 
Australia, TrievelA7X, so one of the smaller countries although we have the current world #1 so there is a depressingly (or motivatingly) large gap of 2.2 sec from me to him. Our top 20 time for Normal is 1.48.786 and I see that of the USA is 1.48.881, although the top 250 time for the USA is quicker than the top 250 for Australia.

I see what you mean about Mexico, I'd be #3 there!!!! Even NZ with its population of 3.5 million is way ahead of that.

I don't think I'd be surprised and that is my point -- it is achieveable to even those without as much talent, they just need a lot, lot longer to get there and need to stand on the shoulders of the greats to see how to get there at all.

I have a wheel, I just lack the ability for which the only compensation is targetted and thoughtful practice.
 
Just to put a parallel with real drivers Jenson Button:

2000 Formula One Williams 8th
2001 Formula One Benetton 17th
2002 Formula One Renault 7th
2003 Formula One BAR 16 9th
2004 Formula One BAR 18 3rd
2005 Formula One BAR 17 9th
2006 Formula One Honda 6th
2007 Formula One Honda 15th
2008 Formula One Honda 18th
2009 Formula One Brawn 1st

It sometimes goes well like 2004, sometimes less like 2008.

However there are some things to exercise, exercise, exercise:
* First, if you trained more before, you will learn faster
* Second, you will find some exercise easier then other
* Third, your brain will evolve with exercise and some things will become intuitive (your brain will react the right way without thinking)
* Fourth you will have good and bad days, months, years, ...

I recently saw a documentary on Lewis Hamilton and how he was sponsered by McLaren in karting and we know the Schumacher brothers history in karting. Driving young and driving a lot helps. You will not be a Schumacher when you start, but when you exercise enough, you might get close.

My braincells are supposed to start degrading at my age, but I'm still trying to transform what I have to something that helps me go faster in the GT series. Seem to be able to hold a top 100 place in Belgium at the moment.
 
That's true Vince, but the thing about sim racing it that it is the ultimate leveller. The cars, track and conditions are precisely the same for everyone and whatever people's opinion of Button, it cannot be argued he had a car equally as good as the rest of the grid for his career.

but when you exercise enough, you might get close
Click to expand...

and that was my point further up, even the less talented would after a lot of practice be able to make a top 20 time. However, they'd quickly fall out in the next round as they wouldn't have the weeks required to establish a quick lap at their talent level.
 
I don't know how much online sim racing you have done raceur, but my experience tells me that getting a top 20 time in a competitive event requires more than just lots of practice. For whatever (baffling & annoying!) reason, the fastest racers are just "naturally" faster - they were probably putting down times equivalent to my fastest laps within a few laps & then started chipping away from that point. Hours of practice will allow you me chip away at those times, but I'm still going to wind up a second - two seconds behind the fastest drivers who are also chipping away at their times.

In the end, it all becomes a bit pointless - I will have more fun racing in SCC or F1CE than endlessly repeating the GT5TT.
 
The top times may seem impossible If you think it's impossible to begin with, but I'm a person who thinks that nothing is impossible, I am not blessed with alien skills, but what I have is alot of knowledge of Gran turismo.

I have learnt over the years while playing this game, all the various techniques and important racing principles that allow you to reach the limit. Like the balance (or compromise) between entry speed versus exit speed, If you can understand this your times will improve dramatically. Essentially, If the corner has a relatively short straight after it, then exit speed is not critical, entering the corner is, and line into the next corner is, but exit speed should not be your priority. If a corner has a very long straight immediately after it, like the right before T2 in the GT5 demo, then you should focus all your efforts on maximising exit speed by using every piece of the road possible. It's simple time management skills, also, its amazing how much time you loose by braking slightly too early and 'coasting' momentarily mid corner. I often here people say, I'm using exactly the same lines, and yet I'm seconds slower, how come? Its simple, your not maximising this formula, the lap may look cool, you may hit every apex, but in each corner you're loosing hidden time because you're braking slightly too early, or you're just that fraction too timid at the point of acceleration out of the corner. To achieve zippingly fast times, everything has to be on or off, brake or accelerate, very little in between stuff, so braking points become paramount.

As soon as I started playing GT4, I couldn't help but observe the speedometer everywhere throughout the lap, as a means to attempt to work out the limit in terms of the velocity at which each corner could be taken at its threshold, through many laps of trial and error, in other words crashing!

In real life you probably can't do this, and there's probably no need to as you have more of a feel for the car, but in a video game, you don't have that same accurate feeling, no matter how good the feedback is in your wheel. You need to try and maximise your sense of what exactly is required for you to do with the car at any given point in time, watching the speedometer like a hawk is a good tactic, allowing you to make little corrections mid apex If you're say 1km/h too hot, or too slow, from what you previously calculated through trial an error as an appropriate minimum speed for that particular corner. It also helps with rythm, a very important part of anything to do with racing. I'm probably babbling on a bit, cheers!
 
@MarkWebber - Great post. I noticed something in my own driving a while back, a bad habit really, that you described. I spent alot of time coasting on entry and fiddling with the brake/gas. Playing GTPSP has really highlighted how much of that I did (given everything is on/off on the PSP). I've been trying to reteach myself how the brake better and work the brake/gas better, as you described. Old habits die hard though. It was nice to read your thoughts as I confirmed alot of my own thinking.

Again, great post.

I've noticed that the new physics reward the driving style you talked about as well (and it's been discussed here quite a bit). While the driving style you discussed is basic race driving 101 stuff really in this demo you really need to relearn and/or retrain yourself. You'll get punished with all the bad habits you learned from other racing games and older GT series games. It is a leveller and requires alot of practice. TT'ing has always taken dedication in OLR but now it seems even more so.
 
Who are these people who are posting lap times which enable them to break into the top 100 in the leaderboards?

Are they using top end steering wheels which give them an advantage, or are they just damn good players due to hours of practice?

I cant get close to the times, Heck i cant even keep either cars on track consistently!
 
You could have put this here instead of making a new thread. Read the comment MarkWebber made in the thread I just showed you (post #43). It explains things perfectly, and no there's no top end steering wheels. There's even some DS3 users in the mix. It just takes practice and patience :sly:
 
just have patients and watch the replay of top players. write notes of where they take brake in each corner and what gear they are in. that really helps.
 
MarkWebber
The top times may seem impossible If you think it's impossible to begin with, but I'm a person who thinks that nothing is impossible, I am not blessed with alien skills, but what I have is alot of knowledge of Gran turismo.

I have learnt over the years while playing this game, all the various techniques and important racing principles that allow you to reach the limit. Like the balance (or compromise) between entry speed versus exit speed, If you can understand this your times will improve dramatically. Essentially, If the corner has a relatively short straight after it, then exit speed is not critical, entering the corner is, and line into the next corner is, but exit speed should not be your priority. If a corner has a very long straight immediately after it, like the right before T2 in the GT5 demo, then you should focus all your efforts on maximising exit speed by using every piece of the road possible. It's simple time management skills, also, its amazing how much time you loose by braking slightly too early and 'coasting' momentarily mid corner. I often here people say, I'm using exactly the same lines, and yet I'm seconds slower, how come? Its simple, your not maximising this formula, the lap may look cool, you may hit every apex, but in each corner you're loosing hidden time because you're braking slightly too early, or you're just that fraction too timid at the point of acceleration out of the corner. To achieve zippingly fast times, everything has to be on or off, brake or accelerate, very little in between stuff, so braking points become paramount.

As soon as I started playing GT4, I couldn't help but observe the speedometer everywhere throughout the lap, as a means to attempt to work out the limit in terms of the velocity at which each corner could be taken at its threshold, through many laps of trial and error, in other words crashing!

In real life you probably can't do this, and there's probably no need to as you have more of a feel for the car, but in a video game, you don't have that same accurate feeling, no matter how good the feedback is in your wheel. You need to try and maximise your sense of what exactly is required for you to do with the car at any given point in time, watching the speedometer like a hawk is a good tactic, allowing you to make little corrections mid apex If you're say 1km/h too hot, or too slow, from what you previously calculated through trial an error as an appropriate minimum speed for that particular corner. It also helps with rythm, a very important part of anything to do with racing. I'm probably babbling on a bit, cheers!
Click to expand...

+ 1000 👍

Very nicely put and a great read. Its time to have a look at my driving style (gas, brakes, lines etc) and see where I'm going wrong.
 
MarkWebber
To achieve zippingly fast times, everything has to be on or off...
Click to expand...
Couldn't be more true 👍, haven't got anywhere near your level yet (74th in UK) but appreciate a good understanding of race technique.

Enlightening to read about difference of priority in entry/exit speed depending on length of straight after each corner, hadn't thought about that but sounds spot on
 
I've fallen back to 46th place because I haven't run any laps in a week or so, but I'm using a standard 2 year old G25 that I use for all of my sim racing, mainly on iRacing. It's not a question of fancy equipment. That's never the answer. If you wana throw money at the problem, spend $20 on Going Faster or Speed Secrets.. and also stop braking so late.
 
MarkWebber
The top times may seem impossible If you think it's impossible to begin with, but I'm a person who thinks that nothing is impossible, I am not blessed with alien skills, but what I have is alot of knowledge of Gran turismo.

I have learnt over the years while playing this game, all the various techniques and important racing principles that allow you to reach the limit. Like the balance (or compromise) between entry speed versus exit speed, If you can understand this your times will improve dramatically. Essentially, If the corner has a relatively short straight after it, then exit speed is not critical, entering the corner is, and line into the next corner is, but exit speed should not be your priority. If a corner has a very long straight immediately after it, like the right before T2 in the GT5 demo, then you should focus all your efforts on maximising exit speed by using every piece of the road possible. It's simple time management skills, also, its amazing how much time you loose by braking slightly too early and 'coasting' momentarily mid corner. I often here people say, I'm using exactly the same lines, and yet I'm seconds slower, how come? Its simple, your not maximising this formula, the lap may look cool, you may hit every apex, but in each corner you're loosing hidden time because you're braking slightly too early, or you're just that fraction too timid at the point of acceleration out of the corner. To achieve zippingly fast times, everything has to be on or off, brake or accelerate, very little in between stuff, so braking points become paramount.

As soon as I started playing GT4, I couldn't help but observe the speedometer everywhere throughout the lap, as a means to attempt to work out the limit in terms of the velocity at which each corner could be taken at its threshold, through many laps of trial and error, in other words crashing!

In real life you probably can't do this, and there's probably no need to as you have more of a feel for the car, but in a video game, you don't have that same accurate feeling, no matter how good the feedback is in your wheel. You need to try and maximise your sense of what exactly is required for you to do with the car at any given point in time, watching the speedometer like a hawk is a good tactic, allowing you to make little corrections mid apex If you're say 1km/h too hot, or too slow, from what you previously calculated through trial an error as an appropriate minimum speed for that particular corner. It also helps with rythm, a very important part of anything to do with racing. I'm probably babbling on a bit, cheers!
Click to expand...

Excellent post all around Dan :cheers: I couldn't agree with what you said anymore 👍
 
Interesting post Mr. Weber. Having very precise inputs based on careful observation of details, like speedometer readings, & analysing the corner & straight combination of the particular track make sense. Obviously the more time you put in helps with this. However, I would venture to suggest you also have an innate ability which is hard for you to appreciate yourself, because it is ... err ... innate (the same goes for the other handful of exceptionally fast hotlappers).

One thing about GT5D is, IMO, it still under-represents braking instability & weight-transfer, which makes very aggressive braking followed by immediate throttle easier, & presumably essential to achieving fast times. I am assuming from your post that you are using a FFB wheel, my question is: are you using left-foot braking? Given the characteristics of the physics this would seem to be a way of maximizing speed around the track.

Finally, I noticed in going through the Canadian rankings there was nobody faster than me (the last time I looked) who was using a "gated-shifter 900 degree wheel". It seems a bit odd, as I would guess there are quite a lot of G25s out there, & made me wonder if the DFP or DFGT was somehow "faster" than a G25 (or Fanatec wheel for that matter).
 
I don't own a G25 and have only used it a few times, but from what I've heard it makes little difference to your pace, when the clutch is not required ofcourse, but some actually think the DFGT improved their times marginally.

Sure natural talent helps in anything in life, but talent can only take you so far- hard work, practice and dedication will take you all the way. I am a self confessed GT addict, have been since GT4 came out:D
 
MarkWebber
I don't own a G25 and have only used it a few times, but from what I've heard it makes little difference to your pace, when the clutch is not required ofcourse, but some actually think the DFGT improved their times marginally.

Sure natural talent helps in anything in life, but talent can only take you so far- hard work, practice and dedication will take you all the way. I am a self confessed GT addict, have been since GT4 came out:D
Click to expand...

That's something i want to point out Dan. I feel sometimes there's a "disrespect" towards record holders because i often hear something like: "well, i did my times in 30 minutes, if i played 40 hours i would surely have those great times".

In most cases, that's BS. If the player does not have the driving DNA, his 30 minute run will not be much different than his 40 hour run.

Hard work is good. No great driver will set his record in 30 minutes, that's BS. Everybody has to run a lot of times, crash a lot of times to finally manage a record lap.

It's like saying "well, if yoong had practiced enough he would be as good as schummy". It's a moot point. Regardless of the ifs, one is young, the other is schummy.

So my point is, the 3'23 guys deserve a lot of credit for their hard work.

I'm not saying skill is not necessary, but its just one ingredient. After watching my friends play the time trial, i can say that there are two types of GT players. The ones that "get" and the ones that just don't get it. A good driver watches Dan's lap and knows what he has to do. He might not get it (skill and dedication) but he knows where the time is. Some people, like some of my friends, are just a bit clueless, even watching the top laps they keep doing retarded stuff like taking wide corners, reckless braking, and then in the end they just blame it on the car.

There is also a lot of intrincasies (sp) involved on hotlapping. The 370Z for instance, you have to learn how the work the suspension roll in your favor, you need to know the proper gearing, you need to point the car to the right spot before each apex, i mean, a lot of minor stuff.

Let's say your top time after hours of play is 1'50. Getting 1'51-1'52 laps is easy, the hard thing to do is connect good splits to build a perfect lap.

I just finished another session where i didn't improved on my normal car time. I ran at least 10 laps of 1'48'5xx but i still couldn't improve on my 1'48'503. I have splits for a 47'8-47'9 lap, but putting togheter this lap is what is so hard.

I don't know if i made any sense, but i just wanted to voice some thoughts on this subject.

Anyways, not giving up is a good quality i guess. I'm not moving back to the tuned car until i hit a flat 48, because if you see time left on the track you should go get it.👍
 
Good post fasj6418, as I mentioned earlier, natural talent is very important in anything in life, some are born with it, some have a little bit of it, but practice and dedication, and these people can be as good as a highly naturally talented person, if not better.

Lleyton Hewitt is this kind of person, he can't hurt you with any one particular shot, like a booming serve, or a great forehand, but what he has is determination, never give up attitude, the will to win, whereas the likes of Roger Federer, he has loads of natural talent, makes everything look so squeeky clean and clinically dispatches his opponents time and time again, but they are both at the top level in their sport.

So don't be too disheartened If you are not born a freak, hard work and practice can still get you close to the top, Lucas is in this boat, 15th in phase 1 time trial, and 2nd in his national finals, clearly not freakishly talented, but his attitude and dedication has got him where he is now, a professional racing car driver.

Lars has loads of natural talent but yet he didnt make use of it when he won the GT Academy, otherwise he would be a professional racer, he's a bum in other words, a wasted talent. I don't know the full story but that's what I assume anyway!

Back on topic, another thing I notice is that alot of driver's try and do too much, with the wheel anyway, less is more in some respects, feel that precise steering angle that you need to employ to get you in and out of a corner as quick as possible, and to avoid understeering, (or oversteering ie. last corner)
 
You didn't answer my question about left-foot braking, however having just given it a try (I had to move the pedals on my Playseat to do this), I'm guessing this is what the fastest drivers are doing - it allows much more precise control of the car, as well as reducing the time involved in moving from accelerator pedal to brake & back. Unfortunately ... it did not improve my time, as I am not used to left-foot braking, so I don't have good control with my left foot yet (actually I had a tendency to press the brake every time I changed gear. :rolleyes:)

My other assumption from you comments is that you are driving in bumper cam view - I can see that would also make a difference, as it gives you a clearer view of the road & the ability to easily check your speed.
 
Yeah, there isn't much use for left foot braking in GT5 demo and gt5p, in gt4 it's a different story, too much was required, which is probably not very realistic, I'm glad they've corrected it. I use bumper cam view. Cheers
 
Biggles
You didn't answer my question about left-foot braking, however having just given it a try (I had to move the pedals on my Playseat to do this), I'm guessing this is what the fastest drivers are doing - it allows much more precise control of the car, as well as reducing the time involved in moving from accelerator pedal to brake & back. Unfortunately ... it did not improve my time, as I am not used to left-foot braking, so I don't have good control with my left foot yet (actually I had a tendency to press the brake every time I changed gear. :rolleyes:)
Click to expand...

I just spotted this comment. Presumably you use the G25 and make use of the fully manual gearshift option usually?

I've not owned a racing wheel for years so my only recent experience of using G25s and DFPs is when using someone else's. Because of this, it's the most natural thing for me to do to left-foot brake - so it actually surprises me a little to find somone using their right foot in the game. I reckon this does put you at a disadvantage. I've not made any serious attempts on the times yet but my brother has (he's 11th in the UK at the moment) and he definitely uses left-foot braking.
 
I thought the top times were impossible at first, but after lots of practice my times are coming down. I struggled to hit sub 1.50s for days but by the time I did, I was hitting them consistently. Now about a week on Im ranked 25th(last time I checked so make that 28th) and running consistent high 1.48s in the stock and mid 1.36s in the tuned. Your ghost is your friend as you stay close to it and can clearly see when you gain or lose time.
 

Similar threads

TomaHAWKTUA
Top Speed For all Cars.
Replies
4
Views
1K
gtplus
gtplus
UltimateLurker
Fastest (top speed) car on GT7?
Replies
1
Views
9K
Szami67
Szami67
M
700PP Nurb times
Replies
10
Views
2K
Meythia
Meythia
flair1111
Driving In The Rain New Physics
Replies
0
Views
415
flair1111
flair1111
SDSmurf
The Rivals Thread
2
Replies
38
Views
6K
SDSmurf
SDSmurf

Latest Posts

Back