The top times seem impossible

[d3br34k5]

There are millions of people playing this one track, two car time trial.

Yes, they're using G25s, Fanatecs, DFGTs. Some can even manage those times with DS3s.

They're just simply better than you and I. Whether they're naturals or spend hour upon hour hot-lapping is of no matter. They're better. 👍

 

[Biggles]

Yeah, there isn't much use for left foot braking in GT5 demo and gt5p

So you're not using left-foot braking? I can see that people with DFPs or DFGTs would be more likely to left-foot brake. Hmm ... might be interesting to have a poll.

 

[Jerry786]

Thanks for the replies. Im using the driving force GT and ive played grid and dirt 2. Its fantastic to play on these two games but its nigh on impossible to get a clean lap in this game, Also Ive found you cannot correct oversteer when driving either car.

I think i may have to stick with the controller for this game

 

[Jerry786]

They're just simply better than you and I. Whether they're naturals or spend hour upon hour hot-lapping is of no matter. They're better. 👍

I agree

 

[spyrrari]

Thanks for the replies. Im using the driving force GT and ive played grid and dirt 2. Its fantastic to play on these two games but its nigh on impossible to get a clean lap in this game, Also Ive found you cannot correct oversteer when driving either car.

I think i may have to stick with the controller for this game

First of all(as allready mentioned) there is allready a thread about this...
Second,it is very much possible to get a clean lap,and also to correct oversteer with the DFGT wheel...

So ,going back to the controller doesnt help....just practice more ,and maybe play with the FFB level of the wheel to help you get the feedback,and you will be fine...👍

EDIT:there is an edit function on the right of your posts,use it so you dont have to double post!!



spy.

 

[Jerry786]

First of all(as allready mentioned) there is allready a thread about this...
Second,it is very much possible to get a clean lap,and also to correct oversteer with the DFGT wheel...

So ,going back to the controller doesnt help....just practice more ,and maybe play with the FFB level of the wheel to help you get the feedback,and you will be fine...👍

EDIT:there is an edit function on the right of your posts,use it so you dont have to double post!!



spy.

OooooooooooooooooooooooooK

EDIT: Whether there is another thread or not is irrelevant.

 

[Biggles]

No, the other thread is only: "Top Times Seem Impossible". This thread clearly states they ARE impossible. Obviously quite different!

 

[Spagetti69]

Their not impossible, have a look on the leaderboards people are acheiving it.

 

[spyrrari]

No, the other thread is only: "Top Times Seem Impossible". This thread clearly states they ARE impossible. Obviously quite different!

In Holland we would call you a smartass....In your country too??...





spy.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

After running many many laps absolutely on the edge and purposely braking slightly later, (ie:too late) accelerating slightly earlier (ie:too early) and watching the resulting loss of time through having to correct or running out of track I agree with the original sentiment.

I am convinced that this extra time comes from anomalies within the game's physics.

This thread seemed like an appropriate place to say this, and whilst I don't doubt that I'll get abuse over this, I fundamentally believe that something odd is going on because in a genuinely like-for-like setting, no-one is two seconds a lap quicker than me (or a lot of other people for that matter), not after this many laps at least. That sort of time would involve figuratively speaking, huge margins of difference between their braking and acceleration points; 5-10 Metres later on the brakes every corner, equally earlier on the power, it just isn't there. If that time was available you could pretty much brake on every apex and still get round faster than most people.

I don't know what game people are playing to do these times, but it's not the one running on my console.

 

[FLASH48]

It's because we are human and they are not, simple as that!!

 

[The Outlaw]

After running many many laps absolutely on the edge and purposely braking slightly later, (ie:too late) accelerating slightly earlier (ie:too early) and watching the resulting loss of time through having to correct or running out of track I agree with the original sentiment.

I am convinced that this extra time comes from anomalies within the game's physics.

This thread seemed like an appropriate place to say this, and whilst I don't doubt that I'll get abuse over this, I fundamentally believe that something odd is going on because in a genuinely like-for-like setting, no-one is two seconds a lap quicker than me (or a lot of other people for that matter), not after this many laps at least. That sort of time would involve figuratively speaking, huge margins of difference between their braking and acceleration points; 5-10 Metres later on the brakes every corner, equally earlier on the power, it just isn't there. If that time was available you could pretty much brake on every apex and still get round faster than most people.

I don't know what game people are playing to do these times, but it's not the one running on my console.

I think you just need to accept that your ego has been popped Simple as that.

The preciseness and timing of the inputs (throttle, brake, steering) are all accumulating to the losses in time you're seeing.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

I think you just need to accept that your ego has been popped Simple as that.

The preciseness and timing of the inputs (throttle, brake, steering) are all accumulating to the losses in time you're seeing.

I expected a response along those lines, but look at it step by step. Go out and see how much margin you have to do a lap 2 seconds slower than your best. The margin you have to get within two seconds of your best is immense, coast in, brake 20 metres early, drift out, lines are irrelevant. Do you think that everybody who is slower than you feel they are on the limit using these massively earlier braking and acceleration inputs? Some might be wrong, some might not be feeling the game correctly, but statistically they can't all be wrong.

It's not about egos (not to me) it's about facts. The bravado and eliteism distracts from the simple logistics of the "problem" (and that's all this game is, it's a puzzle game where you have to move this thing around a track quickly using power and brake). Two seconds is a lifetime, and margins like that aren't there to be had with only two pedals and a spattering of corners on one lap.

 

[Biggles]

After running many many laps absolutely on the edge and purposely braking slightly later, (ie:too late) accelerating slightly earlier (ie:too early) and watching the resulting loss of time through having to correct or running out of track I agree with the original sentiment.

I am convinced that this extra time comes from anomalies within the game's physics.

This thread seemed like an appropriate place to say this, and whilst I don't doubt that I'll get abuse over this, I fundamentally believe that something odd is going on because in a genuinely like-for-like setting, no-one is two seconds a lap quicker than me (or a lot of other people for that matter), not after this many laps at least. That sort of time would involve figuratively speaking, huge margins of difference between their braking and acceleration points; 5-10 Metres later on the brakes every corner, equally earlier on the power, it just isn't there. If that time was available you could pretty much brake on every apex and still get round faster than most people.

I don't know what game people are playing to do these times, but it's not the one running on my console.

I totally agree!

And Usain Bolt's got them special running shoes with the wonky physics - otherwise I'd be kicking his ass too!

It's because we are human and they are not, simple as that!!

Bear in mind, they've also got a few decades on us Flash!

 

[Scaff]

OooooooooooooooooooooooooK

EDIT: Whether there is another thread or not is irrelevant.

That another thread on the exact same subject exists is 100% relevant, the boards do not need countless threads on the exact same subject.

They make a mess of the place and as a result make it a hell of a lot harder to find specific threads.

I'm merging the two threads.


Scaff

 

[Jerry786]

The preciseness and timing of the inputs (throttle, brake, steering) are all accumulating to the losses in time you're seeing.

I loaded the ghost of the person who is right at the top of the leader boards to see where i was going wrong...You know what happened?

On the straight leading up to the first corner he was already way ahead of me.. I mean i didnt do anything wrong, I followed the racing line on full throttle but after many attempts same result everytime.

After this, i kind of gave up on setting a time because i feel other users have an advantage over the likes of me. Im using the Driving force GT wheel and granted i aint the best of players but i still expect to be on par with the rest leading down to the first corner

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

I totally agree!

And Usain Bolt's got them special running shoes with the wonky physics - otherwise I'd be kicking his ass too!



Bear in mind, they've also got a few decades on us Flash!

Whenever I find myself posting this regularly I think it's time to call it a day. I'll just let the abuse roll in and see if anyone actually managed to contribute anything valid or constructive, or if all the posts where from people trying to highlight how much "better" (very loose use of wording there) they where than someone else.

My point still stands nonetheless, and I'm yet to see an argument based on any logic to convince me otherwise.

 

[arora]

I am convinced that this extra time comes from anomalies within the game's physics.

Are you saying that all the top drivers have figured out how to exploit said anomalies and not that they have talent and practice to hone their skills?

I don't know what game people are playing to do these times, but it's not the one running on my console.

Oh wait a sec, somehow you downloaded a different version of the game then everyone else? Or, just the fast guys got a special dl. I'm confused

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

I loaded the ghost of the person who is right at the top of the leader boards to see where i was going wrong...You know what happened?

On the straight leading up to the first corner he was already way ahead of me.. I mean i didnt do anything wrong, I followed the racing line on full throttle but after many attempts same result everytime.

After this, i kind of gave up on setting a time because i feel other users have an advantage over the likes of me. Im using the Driving force GT wheel and granted i aint the best of players but i still expect to be on par with the rest leading down to the first corner

I'm not gonna check but I think the "standard" is 155mph going over the start line in the tuned (couldn't tell you the stock); any less and you got the final corner exit wrong.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

Are you saying that all the top drivers have figured out how to exploit said anomalies and not that they have talent and practice to hone their skills?





Oh wait a sec, somehow you downloaded a different version of the game then everyone else? Or, just the fast guys got a special dl. I'm confused

Try going 2 seconds slower than your best, then (once you appreciate the margins involved) tell me how someone could be effectively wasting so much time (yet think they are on the limit) going two seconds slower than the best.

Once again, bravado or not, there are a lot of people out there who must be (presumably) very good drivers who are two seconds off the pace. Do they all have terrible judgement of the limit? are they really braking 10 metres early on every corner and believing that's the limit? Come on, be realistic.

 

[spyrrari]

I loaded the ghost of the person who is right at the top of the leader boards to see where i was going wrong...You know what happened?

On the straight leading up to the first corner he was already way ahead of me.. I mean i didnt do anything wrong, I followed the racing line on full throttle but after many attempts same result everytime.

After this, i kind of gave up on setting a time because i feel other users have an advantage over the likes of me. Im using the Driving force GT wheel and granted i aint the best of players but i still expect to be on par with the rest leading down to the first corner

To get the maximum speed on the start/finish line,you have to exit the corner leading on to that straight perfectly(in this case,the last right corner leading you out of the infield)...also,try not to steer too much in the last banking...if you do,you will create friction and this will stop the car from accelarating properly...


spy.

 

[Biggles]

Believe Mr. Dr. Plank, I can sympathize completely with your sentiments - it IS very frustrating. However, I have had my butt handed to me online in a variety of racing games now, so I have grudgingly come to accept that this is not some weird physics anomaly - some gamers simply have a finer touch than I am capable of (I imagine this is also true of non-racing games). This particular TT has brought ALL the fastest PS3 racers out of the woodwork, which has made it particularly competitive/frustrating.

I just thought I would add: the fastest GTP drivers have clearly been consistently fast across a variety of GT5P events, which further reinforces that the times aren't due to a physics anomaly.

 

[The Outlaw]

Try going 2 seconds slower than your best, then (once you appreciate the margins involved) tell me how someone could be effectively wasting so much time (yet think they are on the limit) going two seconds slower than the best.

Once again, bravado or not, there are a lot of people out there who must be (presumably) very good drivers who are two seconds off the pace. Do they all have terrible judgement of the limit? are they really braking 10 metres early on every corner and believing that's the limit? Come on, be realistic.

I think you just need to face the facts, and realize that not everyone can be as fast as people like Takeuchi and Holl01...even you almighty one No need to come up with conspiracy theories and excuses as to why you're not every bit as good as someone else 👎

Lastly, I think Dan said it best...

The top times may seem impossible If you think it's impossible to begin with, but I'm a person who thinks that nothing is impossible, I am not blessed with alien skills, but what I have is alot of knowledge of Gran turismo.

 

[arora]

I don't see how you answered either of my questions but I'll try to answere yours....

Try going 2 seconds slower than your best, then (once you appreciate the margins involved) tell me how someone could be effectively wasting so much time (yet think they are on the limit) going two seconds slower than the best.

The rate your lap times can improve is not liniar, of course it's easier to go 2 seconds slower then 2 seconds faster then your current best time. There is a theoritical best lap time and as you aproach it each step is much harder to get to. Like this...

4 would be the best possible, not a great example but you can see how that works?

Once again, bravado or not, there are a lot of people out there who must be (presumably) very good drivers who are two seconds off the pace. Do they all have terrible judgement of the limit? are they really braking 10 metres early on every corner and believing that's the limit? Come on, be realistic.

I don't think it's as simple as brake points anymore, with this demo there are many other factors such as weight transfer, wheel lock, and wheel spin, etc etc... In other words the physic engine is improving and probably weeding out the casual gamer 👍

 

[Feschka]

Oh my gaaad whassat??!!

 

[Biggles]

can see how that works?

No.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

I don't see how you answered either of my questions but I'll try to answere yours....



The rate your lap times can improve is not liniar, of course it's easier to go 2 seconds slower then 2 seconds faster then your current best time. There is a theoritical best lap time and as you aproach it each step is much harder to get to. Like this...

4 would be the best possible, not a great example but you can see how that works?

I don't think it's as simple as brake points anymore, with this demo there are many other factors such as weight transfer, wheel lock, and wheel spin, etc etc... In other words the physic engine is improving and probably weeding out the casual gamer 👍

I'm aware mathematically of how weeding out the last half-second is (in a way not) comparable to going half a second slower than the max. Your graph at least illustrates a point that I considered making with regard to this phenomenon and didn't because I assumed it would be somewhat lost. This is only true as you approach the absolute limit though. I'm massively slower at 2 seconds off the pace, as are others who are 4 secs off the pace. We are well away from the incline where it requires large input difference to make minimal improvements; our improvements are indeed still relatively linear.

I'm still not sure how complex the physics modeling is, especially with regards to weight transfer and the coefficient of friction used to determine the grip of a tire given an arbitrary entry speed to a corner. This game has some very questionable low speed physics and grass physics, clearly applying very different dynamic coefficients of friction to the track at low speed than it does at higher speeds.

 

[homeforsummer]

@ Biggles: It's a simple curve. Imagine a theoretical best time.

Now imagine you're aiming for it. Your first lap will be slow. Your next will be faster, probably by quite a bit. The next, faster still, though not by as much. In an ideal world, each subsequent lap will be quicker, but by less and less each time.

Eventually, you get to the stage that all the top guys are running at the moment, where each time you set a quicker lap it's literally by thousandths and every step forward is few and far between.

@ Plank: I think you pretty much have to accept that you're not as good as the top guys. I'm a good second off my brother. We use the same rig, the same PS3, in the same room. I go as quick as I can but I can clearly see that my brother goes quicker than I do. It's not anomalies, it's driver skill.

 

[Biggles]

Yes, I understand the principle.

I also understand Dr. Plank's feeling: there just don't seem to be enough variables possible to produce such different results. It's the "monkey typing Shakespeare" syndrome - you would think that enough repetitions would eventually result, if only by chance, with a perfect, or at least a better lap time. It IS hard to comprehend.

However, I have seen "impossible" times set in a variety of racing games for the PS3 - F1CE, FC, SCC & GT5P - so I have come to accept that what intuitively seems to be "impossible" does actually happen - that some racers are consistently just faster - quite a lot faster.

At the top of the leader boards knocking hundredths, or even thousandths off, requires, I am sure, not only skill but a major commitment of time & effort. Whether that is time well-spent is a separate matter.

 

[Seismica]

If i put all my perfect corners together into 1 lap i would hit under 1'36.5

I know i can do that, looking at how different my ghost lap is with later attempts. I can pull ahead at certain points, where you get that perfect corner/section and then fail in other areas, like come out of turn 10 at too small and angle and lose a second, come out of turn 7 without using the full width of the track etc. The time adds up.

But that would take many many hours of hard work. So as a result i'm only around 1'38.4

To be honest, my best attempt so far is not my best attempt, its just the quickest full lap. I can guarantee i've done each and every corner faster on other attempts, i just need to commit the time to the game to become more consistent.

The bottom line is, i'm not fussed about it because without a full driving license i can't compete in GT academy. Although even if i tried, i wouldn't hit top 20, but i am your better than average GT player, when effort is put in.