The top times seem impossible

[novateague]

Other than calling me a troll again, which I can only assume you use to refer to anyone whose opinion differs from your own, you've taken 3 paragraphs to state that I'm wrong.

To correct you, the inaccuracies in the physics add up to in the region of 1.65 seconds (1.9-0.25 still available, using predictable "normal" driving style).

The limits of the car are self-evident or from trial and error if one chooses to prove the point by purposely carrying slightly more speed into the corner, resulting in the turn being missed or compromised. Doing that for every corner provides you with all the info you need. All you have to do afterwards is string the corners together at the predetermined speeds; there's nothing magical about it.

Bottom line is that obviously you can get the car through the corners quicker somehow, but it's seemingly more by pushing or bending some part of the physics and/or knowing where the physics modeling falls apart allowing you to get around quicker, rather than putting in a perfectly controlled lap based on normal assumptions.

I would definitely like to believe this is the case as I'm 2 seconds off the pace too, and it seems like to extract any more out of the car would be unachievable. I think it goes down to all the subtleties and precision required to place the car exactly where it should be, control the throttle perfectly, and keep the car on the limits of adhesion.

I know that I am a decently quick guy in karts and on the road, but is there anyone who has real track experience that can say whether or not being fast in GT5 translates into being fast in reality? Obviously Lucas Ordoñez is some proof of this...

 

[arora]

To correct you, the inaccuracies in the physics add up to in the region of 1.65 seconds (1.9-0.25 still available, using predictable "normal" driving style).

But racing is not "normal" or predictable.

Bottom line is that obviously you can get the car through the corners quicker somehow, but it's seemingly more by pushing or bending some part of the physics and/or knowing where the physics modeling falls apart allowing you to get around quicker, rather than putting in a perfectly controlled lap based on normal assumptions.

And that is called racing 👍

 

[Hyper-Dan]

But racing is not "normal" or predictable.



And that is called racing 👍

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. 👍

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

<snip>

Muwahaha...thanks for the laugh Thank god I'm hiding behind this computer, or else I might have to head butt someone into oblivion

Believe me the feeling is mutual, although I suspect if I took that course of action against you the child-protection agency would be onto me.

Anyway, that's enough from you tough-guy.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

Yeah, it is tbh.

He gets an audience of about 5-6 people every last Thursday of a month. And those are his family.

Well if he ever needs a few more audience members I'm sure I could get a few friends together and he'd be in the big-time...... well double figures anyway.

 

[The Outlaw]

I would definitely like to believe this is the case as I'm 2 seconds off the pace too, and it seems like to extract any more out of the car would be unachievable. I think it goes down to all the subtleties and precision required to place the car exactly where it should be, control the throttle perfectly, and keep the car on the limits of adhesion.

I know that I am a decently quick guy in karts and on the road, but is there anyone who has real track experience that can say whether or not being fast in GT5 translates into being fast in reality? Obviously Lucas Ordoñez is some proof of this...

Nice post 👍 It's good to see someone without an inflated ego, who doesn't find the need to make unreasonable excuses...

But racing is not "normal" or predictable.



And that is called racing 👍

Excellent points as usual

Believe me the feeling is mutual, although I suspect if I took that course of action against you the child-protection agency would be onto me.

Anyway, that's enough from you tough-guy.

Ooo...you've got me shaken in my boots I'm sure you're as over confident of your fighting skills as you are of your driving skills to lmao

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

Ooo...you've got me shaken in my boots I'm sure you're as over confident of your fighting skills as you are of your driving skills to lmao

You seem to have some problem that causes you to laugh uncontrolably at the end (and sometimes in the middle) of your sentences. I'd get that looked at it I were you.

 

[MeAgainstYou]

You seem to have some problem that causes you to laugh uncontrolably at the end (and sometimes in the middle) of your sentences. I'd get that looked at it I were you.

careful Brock it seams you're under a real Doctor observation...



i thought we had already a winner!?... that means the competition is over.. move on 👍



!?

 

[The Outlaw]

Yea, I guess I should have my sarcasm checked out Woops....sorry for that! I'll try to be as unemotional and monotone as possible

Anyway, I put down my sword...I've already let my point be known 👍

 

[Ren]

Fantastic... I see the "let's rather waste our time kicking each other in the nuts instead of competing sportsman-like and ENJOYING Gt" has moved over here. Not bad, keeps the foul taste out of the racing threads 👍

 

[novateague]

Nice post 👍 It's good to see someone without an inflated ego, who doesn't find the need to make unreasonable excuses...

Why thank you good sir, I try . Some people find excuses, others find speed. Maybe if I was from Cali I would be a few hundreths quicker

 

[krisa9977]

It reminds me my real live racing experience. A few years ago I was doing Time Trials competition with my BMW M3. There were some people who just refused to believe that I can be faster driving my 340hp M3 then them driving their 500hp Corvettes. I left my car at the track with opened hood, so people can examine the car and its modifications and got back to the hotel. When I came back to the track I saw this:
http://atlantictools.net/cheat.jpg

 

[balang_479]

Having scraped a tenth off my tuned to leave me 1.9 seconds off the pace in a car that on the absolute limit of adhesion, I'm fairly adamant that is pretty much all the time there is available. Another 500 laps would no doubt remove the last .250 that has to be there somewhere if you get lucky. But the margin of 1.9 on the current time is just nonsense. I'm on the power so early every corner that even if my apex speeds where slightly slower, there's nothing like nearly a 2 second margin to be had. I'd have to be 10mph slower on the apex of every corner (which I'm not pretty obviously)

If there is telemetry in the final game that can be shared, I have no doubts that my feeling about anomalies in the physics will slowly be proven; either that or going faster requires you to do something incredibly counter-intuitive with your driving, leaving the game wholly inaccurate.

youre talking rubbish....

Im 2 seconds off pace, but i can see where my problems are... maybe not 2 seconds full but a good driver could and obviously has. I dont understand how you can think that your 2 seconds off pace are the best possible way round.

You might well be driving on the limits of adhesion, have you ever thought that your line is wrong? i try to experiment with different lines...trial an error. Ive seen that sometimes the fastest way around a corner might be just past this limit of adhesion, small oversteer to point you in the right direction...

open your eyes and have a good look at where you can improve your time...
dont blame the game.
I know i wont be able to close down on those 2 seconds, not all of us are the fastest, thats the whole point.
Im having fun running 2 seconds behind and im glad there are people that can truly control a car with such accuracy.

 

[arora]

You might well be driving on the limits of adhesion, have you ever thought that your line is wrong? I try to experiment with different lines...trial an error. Ive seen that sometimes the fastest way around a corner might be just past this limit of adhesion, small oversteer to point you in the right direction...

This. Drifting isn't all about locked diff's and smoke 👍

 

[Gaviao_pt]

The top times are definitely possible.
But it takes a lot of time, a lot of effort and lot of talent.
No one can just jump into this TT and expect to have a top time in a few hours.
Specially if they don't have a long history of this type of hobby on GT5p or PC simulators

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

You might well be driving on the limits of adhesion, have you ever thought that your line is wrong? i try to experiment with different lines...trial an error. Ive seen that sometimes the fastest way around a corner might be just past this limit of adhesion, small oversteer to point you in the right direction...

Gonna call it a day here as I'm not gonna spend today continuing this argument.

Your particular point I will address though as it at least warrants some thought or analysis. I'm already using power-on oversteer to turn the car under control exiting certain corners, but that's not going to account for nearly 2 seconds.

The lines through the corners are pretty much set in tone as far as I'm concerned.

1 leads to 2, meaning that any extra speed carried through 1 compromises the entrance to 2. Seeing as 2 is followed by a flat 3 I will always compromise 1 to get a better 2. I want to be approaching 2 as far right as I can without coasting through 1 too much. From memory it's ~60mph on the apex of 1 in tuned.

4 Is the only corner that I'm not happy with, I use the bog-standard dab on the breaks, approach from wide and get on the power as early as possible, once again because 5 is flat so we need exit speed.

6, take your pick. Double apex it and run wide in the middle or hug it, but you need a tight exit for 7.

7 starting wide left, compromise entry using a sharper/later than normal turn-in to leave car pointing straight earlier than normal, allowing you to be full throttle from the clipping point onwards for the best exit.

8, you'll have a job getting very far left for 9 so 8 is a standard corner.

9 compromises 10. 10 is more important as I want exit speed, so I comprmoise 9 by turning further through the corner than I would normally to leave me in the middle or middle-right of the road for a better 10 and exit.

11. I approach wide left, I want maximum exit speed. I cut most of the corner hoping that the front doesn't understeer as I'm going to run out of road if it does even slightly. As soon as the car isn't bouncing around too much I'm back on the power fully. 155mph over the line in the tuned as standard.

It may not be the special way of driving it that makes you go 2 seconds a lap faster, but it's undoubtedly the way you'd do it in a real car.

 

[Timppaq]

DrTrouser, post your replay here and I can take a peek if you'd like? I'm not the fastest but not 2secends behind (yet ) either.. Maybe I can help?

 

[Rudi Raser]

It may not be the special way of driving it that makes you go 2 seconds a lap faster, but it's undoubtedly the way you'd do it in a real car.

Jesus, just forget it, this is granturismo and not a real car.

 

[Ren]

laughing uncontrollably!!!
Havn't heard that one in a long time!👍

 

[raceur]

Dr T-P. I am also 2 secs off the pace, so I understand where you're coming from with your frustration.

However, please understand that you and I simply aren't as good as the top drivers. While the lines seem to be set in stone they aren't, as there are small variations due to personal preference and skill. These small variations add up to a lot. Half a car length braking here, a fraction earlier on the power there, a better-clipped apex another time and before you know it there's two seconds. The difference between us and the top drivers is their ability to pick exactly the right line and perhaps more so, the ability to execute it. For example in the Tuned, can you brake at the 150m mark, still cut the kerb at Turn 1, then carry 105km/h at the apex of Turn 2 and then get fully on the power? The top guys can.

Simply, it's a lack of skill that accounts for the 2 seconds, nothing more or less.

What I like about this comp is that it is so equal. If you go indoor karting for example you'll need to run two sessions and swap karts for an equal playing field, but with this comp everyone has exactly the same setup.

Also, if you were 10mph slower through every corner you'd be a lot further off the pace than 2 seconds. Some maths; according to Wikipedia the circuit is 4.023km long, and the world #1 time is say 1.47.639 giving an average of 134.54km/h. My time, 149.6, 2 secs off the pace, is an average of 132.065km/h, or a 2.5km/h difference. Pretty close it seems, but really so far off, that time is something like 2200th best in the world. That's the thing about motor racing, the times seem so close but in fact they represent a world of difference.

Yes, when tyres squeal they have reached the limit of adhesion, but the top drivers can squeeze out that little bit more speed before the limit is reached.

If you compare your replay with that of the top drivers I'm sure you'll see a difference. I did.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

DrTrouser, post your replay here and I can take a peek if you'd like? I'm not the fastest but not 2secends behind (yet ) either.. Maybe I can help?

Made a mess of 9 on this one usually I'm faster or tighter but I was trying to force this lap too much. Evidently 11 wasn't the best either judging by finishing speed. The rest of it looks "as normal" as best I can remember. First split was 25.4 I think, don't know the others.

 

[weeman1282]

I have been battering the tuned nissan lap the top time is 1m35.sec Tell me how this is possible i can only get 1m42s is this again the [Moderator Edit] fellow breaking in to the game and altering the car? You know who you are sad act.
I also see some people saying they downloaded add ons or cars for this am i mistaken or is there more to it than play it as it comes and thats it? Still trying to better myself i think i can get it down another couple of secs but seven secs big ask, I am not a first time gt racer i 100% finished gt1 gt2 gt3 gt4 and got gold on gt prologue on all apart from two tracks (give me time). I broke my fingers which made it a tad tricky lol. Any advice is welcome apart from idiots being sarcastic cus trust me i can be better at sarcasm than you lol,

 

[profi]

Having scraped a tenth off my tuned to leave me 1.9 seconds off the pace in a car that on the absolute limit of adhesion, I'm fairly adamant that is pretty much all the time there is available. Another 500 laps would no doubt remove the last .250 that has to be there somewhere if you get lucky. But the margin of 1.9 on the current time is just nonsense. I'm on the power so early every corner that even if my apex speeds where slightly slower, there's nothing like nearly a 2 second margin to be had. I'd have to be 10mph slower on the apex of every corner (which I'm not pretty obviously)

If there is telemetry in the final game that can be shared, I have no doubts that my feeling about anomalies in the physics will slowly be proven; either that or going faster requires you to do something incredibly counter-intuitive with your driving, leaving the game wholly inaccurate.

I do think the same. I think you are right. 👍

Bottom line is that obviously you can get the car through the corners quicker somehow, but it's seemingly more by pushing or bending some part of the physics and/or knowing where the physics modeling falls apart allowing you to get around quicker, rather than putting in a perfectly controlled lap based on normal assumptions.

That is what I believe too. 👍



My experience with the Time-Trial (after many many laps already) is the following: (..I was a real-life race-driver once)

The things I did in real-life to actually improve my laptimes do work within the game up to a (invisible) margin.

I must admit that this margin is set very high. That means that up to some point the Impression / feeling (at least for me) of real-life racing is very accurate.

All the things I did in RL (such as breaking strength, braking points, accelerating points and so on..) to improve my laptimes feel so familiar...

UP TO ONE POINT...

From this point onwards (on a very high level though) NOTHING works as I know it from RL racing anymore.

There IS suddenly an invisible border !

And I do believe that this is the edge of the accuracy of Gran-Turismos driving-physics.

From this point on you have to know/learn something about that physics-model which must be very special and which must be also something which has nothing to do with Real-Life to improve your laptimes any further.

Some found it (1.35.xxx), some did not (1.36.xxx).

 

[Sphinx]

I have been battering the tuned nissan lap the top time is 1m35.sec Tell me how this is possible i can only get 1m42s is this again the [Moderator Edit] fellow breaking in to the game and altering the car? You know who you are sad act.
I also see some people saying they downloaded add ons or cars for this am i mistaken or is there more to it than play it as it comes and thats it? Still trying to better myself i think i can get it down another couple of secs but seven secs big ask, I am not a first time gt racer i 100% finished gt1 gt2 gt3 gt4 and got gold on gt prologue on all apart from two tracks (give me time). I broke my fingers which made it a tad tricky lol. Any advice is welcome apart from idiots being sarcastic cus trust me i can be better at sarcasm than you lol,

weeman,
I've edited out your derogatory comment. Please don't use the term 'Japanese'.

Also, please read the AUP (Acceptable User Policy) again and focus your attention to this particular section:

No slang words that promote laziness, ie; &#8220;r&#8221;, &#8220;u&#8221;, &#8220;plz&#8221;, etc. will be tolerated. Decent grammar is expected, including proper usage of capital letters.

Thanks.

 

[GEORGE_GR33]

I do think the same. I think you are right. 👍





That is what I believe too. 👍



My experience with the Time-Trial (after many many laps already) is the following: (..I was a real-life race-driver once)

The things I did in real-life to actually improve my laptimes do work within the game up to a (invisible) margin.

I must admit that this margin is set very high. That means that up to some point the Impression / feeling (at least for me) of real-life racing is very accurate.

All the things I did in RL (such as breaking strength, braking points, accelerating points and so on..) to improve my laptimes feel so familiar...

UP TO ONE POINT...

From this point onwards (on a very high level though) NOTHING works as I know it from RL racing anymore.

There IS suddenly an invisible border !

And I do believe that this is the edge of the accuracy of Gran-Turismos driving-physics.

From this point on you have to know/learn something about that physics-model which must be very special and which must be also something which has nothing to do with Real-Life to improve your laptimes any further.

Some found it (1.35.xxx), some did not (1.36.xxx).

You are 100% correct.
And this is dangerous for all the young boys who they’ll think this
Is the REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR and try to drive like this in real life.

 

[profi]

You are 100% correct.
And this is dangerous for all the young boys who they&#8217;ll think this
Is the REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR and try to drive like this in real life.

In real-life the boys would be astonished how scary it is to even do a 1.45.xxx lap on Indy-Road... (tuned car)

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

Purely for amusement (god knows how I did it) here is a real dog of a lap that clocked 3 tenths quicker than the previous one, despite a comical turn 9 incident that must have cost a lot of time.

 

[tony1311]

In real-life the boys would be astonished how scary it is to even do a 1.45.xxx lap on Indy-Road... (tuned car)

There is something going on here that ain't right.

Yes the physics are off, and yes ,in order to achieve a good lap you must drive in an 'unreal' way to suit the abnormal physics.

But to adapt to these physics and be able to hit great laps is something that needs hard work and tons of talent,talent that i assure you will translate in real life 100%. These 'young boys' you are reffering to are kicking your butt right now.

You and i can say whatever we feel like about the physics but the times on the board are pure samples of hard work and talent. I guarranty you don't want to be meeting them on a track day...

 

[balang_479]

I do think the same. I think you are right. 👍





That is what I believe too. 👍



My experience with the Time-Trial (after many many laps already) is the following: (..I was a real-life race-driver once)

The things I did in real-life to actually improve my laptimes do work within the game up to a (invisible) margin.

I must admit that this margin is set very high. That means that up to some point the Impression / feeling (at least for me) of real-life racing is very accurate.

All the things I did in RL (such as breaking strength, braking points, accelerating points and so on..) to improve my laptimes feel so familiar...

UP TO ONE POINT...

From this point onwards (on a very high level though) NOTHING works as I know it from RL racing anymore.

There IS suddenly an invisible border !

And I do believe that this is the edge of the accuracy of Gran-Turismos driving-physics.

From this point on you have to know/learn something about that physics-model which must be very special and which must be also something which has nothing to do with Real-Life to improve your laptimes any further.

Some found it (1.35.xxx), some did not (1.36.xxx).

I do agree with you a bit, most people who have reached a lap time within 1 second maybe 2 of the top would be very good and probably equal in real life... I consider my 1:37.6 probably a good lap in real life, yes there are a few tenths i could get by getting every corner at my best.

Its very hard to explain the situation of the time trial.

Like you said, you were a racecar driver so techincally you should be able to be faster or definitely on par than people who are not given your experience, but its not entirely accurate... but because the physics dont represent real life 100%, then you have to adjust your driving slightly to the game, people who are at the top have perfectly matched it. I have track experience, not a lot but through my dad i know the theory better than most people...

anyway, i personally think its all about matching the way you drive perfectly to the physics in the game.

 

[profi]

(god knows how I did it)

I will have a look on this one.

I also want to know "What God knows"...

. I guarranty you don't want to be meeting them on a track day... [/B]

I wouldnt be so sure about that...

I did win races already even when I was 10th in practice and 1.2 seconds off the Polesetter.

Doing one single lap is much different from doing a whole race.

.. but because the physics dont represent real life 100%, then you have to adjust your driving slightly to the game, people who are at the top have perfectly matched it.

Absolutely correct. And I also agree that it is indeed hard work to achieve those fastest time, no matter if the physics are "accurate" or not.