The top times seem impossible

[homeforsummer]

I also understand Dr. Plank's feeling: there just don't seem to be enough variables possible to produce such different results. It's the "monkey typing Shakespeare" syndrome - you would think that enough repetitions would eventually result, if only by chance, with a perfect, or at least a better lap time. It IS hard to comprehend.

Not really. The closer you get to your theoretical perfect time, the less likely you are to beat your previous best. Hell, you might even have hit your own personal best and never be able to improve on it. Various things conspire against you - losing concentration, getting frustrated at making mistakes etc. I know that happens with me.

However, I have seen "impossible" times set in a variety of racing games for the PS3 - F1CE, FC, SCC & GT5P - so I have come to accept that what intuitively seems to be "impossible" does actually happen - that some racers are consistently just faster - quite a lot faster.

I'd agree. I refer to my previous example of me vs. my brother. I'm simply not as quick as him. I don't thing it's down to mumbo-jumbo or magical anomalies, I'm just not as quick...

At the top of the leader boards knocking hundredths, or even thousandths off, requires, I am sure, not only skill but a major commitment of time & effort.

Again, yes it does. My brother has done hundreds of laps to get to where he is. Virtually all of those laps are quicker than anything I can manage. Every so often, he'll get certain corners just right, maybe knock a couple of hundredths off, and then not make a mistake through the rest of the lap too, and set a quicker time. It's not because the game has allowed him to go quicker, it's because he's managed to pick the right line - one he's wanted to hit but not quite managed before - and it's allowed him to go quicker.

It really isn't anomalies, however much someone not managing to beat the top guys might think. It's life. Some guys are better than others.

To be honest, my best attempt so far is not my best attempt, its just the quickest full lap. I can guarantee i've done each and every corner faster on other attempts, i just need to commit the time to the game to become more consistent.

👍

This is the essence of it - it's not just about being momentarily quick, it's about stringing together all of your best corners to make a complete lap. One time you might go two tenths quicker on a particular corner, but if you lose another three through the rest of the lap it doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

 

[blademask]

Keep at it. I just shaved my time down... you can too.

 

[MarkWebber]

That sort of time would involve figuratively speaking, huge margins of difference between their braking and acceleration points; 5-10 Metres later on the brakes every corner

The game does have an anomaly, and I'm sure people have noticed it, when you observe a replay, the driver appears to brake way later than when he should and still makes the corner, probably 5-10 metres. But thats just a replay error, thankfully

 

[Synwraith]

The game does have an anomaly, and I'm sure people have noticed it, when you observe a replay, the driver appears to brake way later than when he should and still makes the corner, probably 5-10 metres. But thats just a replay error, thankfully

I have noticed that this seems to exist when watching replays off the leaderboard, but it was much better when the replay is saved to your HDD and watched through the replay theatre.

All the best
Maz

 

[Dessy182]

I think the only answer is to just keep playing and keep learning.

It's like everything in life. Having the time and patience for something like this is what will separate the men from the boys. Also some form of natural flare will help.

I haven't been playing this every day, but in 1 week I have dropped my overall time by over a second and I can still see where I can gain more time.

Best of luck everyone!

 

[Biggles]

Also some form of natural flare will help.

I think natural flair (a skill or instinctive ability to appreciate or make good use of something) is going to be more helpful than a flare (To burst into intense, sudden flame.)

 

[Seismica]

I think natural flair (a skill or instinctive ability to appreciate or make good use of something) is going to be more helpful than a flare (To burst into intense, sudden flame.)

Sorry but i can't resist ;

 

[Biggles]

Sorry, I can't resist when the error introduces charming alternative meanings...

Remember there are many non-native English speakers on this forum - they go to the definition of "flare" & think: "WTF is he going on about?!"

I do ignore the majority of appalling grammatical errors - much more cringe-inducing than Dessy's - but then Dessy is Irish, one of the great literary nations ...

 

[raceur]

Sorry, I can't resist when the error introduces charming alternative meanings...

Remember there are many non-native English speakers on this forum - they go to the definition of "flare" & think: "WTF is he going on about?!"

I do ignore the majority of appalling grammatical errors - much more cringe-inducing than Dessy's - but then Dessy is Irish, one of the great literary nations ...

I'm with you on this one Biggles!

 

[raceur]

I loaded the ghost of the person who is right at the top of the leader boards to see where i was going wrong...You know what happened?

On the straight leading up to the first corner he was already way ahead of me.. I mean i didnt do anything wrong, I followed the racing line on full throttle but after many attempts same result everytime.

I also loaded that replay. The same did not happen to me, because my speed over the start/finish line is 229km/h, same as Dholl's. Which is about all that is the same as from Turn 1 onwards his ghost starts pulling away, but only from Turn 1 onwards. If your speed over the s/f line is not 229km/h then you'll see those results you describe. To improve your s/f speed work on the last two corners.

 

[raceur]

I don't know how much online sim racing you have done raceur, but my experience tells me that getting a top 20 time in a competitive event requires more than just lots of practice. For whatever (baffling & annoying!) reason, the fastest racers are just "naturally" faster - they were probably putting down times equivalent to my fastest laps within a few laps & then started chipping away from that point. Hours of practice will allow you me chip away at those times, but I'm still going to wind up a second - two seconds behind the fastest drivers who are also chipping away at their times.

In the end, it all becomes a bit pointless - I will have more fun racing in SCC or F1CE than endlessly repeating the GT5TT.

My online racing...about four events. I'm a complete newbie, I only bought a PS3 around June and accidentally discovered GT5P a few weeks after that. Found this forum and posted the story which I won't bore people with in this thread.

So you and everyone else has plenty more knowledge than I do, which means I'm willing to listen. I've never played a race sim before in my life and last computer game I tried was, well, I can't recall as I never play them. I'm into cars not computer games.

Yes if everyone puts in the same amount of time the talented ones win, what I'm trying to say is that time, effort and intelligent analysis can lower laptimes as well as pure talent.

 

[Biggles]

My online racing...about four events. I'm a complete newbie, I only bought a PS3 around June and accidentally discovered GT5P a few weeks after that. Found this forum and posted the story which I won't bore people with in this thread.

So you and everyone else has plenty more knowledge than I do, which means I'm willing to listen. I've never played a race sim before in my life and last computer game I tried was, well, I can't recall as I never play them. I'm into cars not computer games.

Yes if everyone puts in the same amount of time the talented ones win, what I'm trying to say is that time, effort and intelligent analysis can lower laptimes as well as pure talent.

When I first started racing online with GT5P almost two years ago, I thought I was pretty good. I was able to beat, fairly easily, most of the online racers I came up against. Then I started competing in more organized events with some of the best GTPlanet racers. I quickly discovered that I was well off the fastest pace. This has remained true of the other racing games I have played online: F1CE & Ferrari Challenge & more recently Super Car Challenge (I'll leave Shift out of the discussion ). In all these games, I have ended up, in spite of my best efforts, pretty consistently one to two seconds/lap slower than the fastest racers. Part of that might have to do with less "time, effort & intelligent analysis", but sadly (& frustratingly) I have been forced to accept that a major part of it is the limits of my own abilities.

 

[raceur]

When I first started racing online with GT5P almost two years ago, I thought I was pretty good. I was able to beat, fairly easily, most of the online racers I came up against. Then I started competing in more organized events with some of the best GTPlanet racers. I quickly discovered that I was well off the fastest pace. This has remained true of the other racing games I have played online: F1CE & Ferrari Challenge & more recently Super Car Challenge (I'll leave Shift out of the discussion ). In all these games, I have ended up, in spite of my best efforts, pretty consistently one to two seconds/lap slower than the fastest racers. Part of that might have to do with less "time, effort & intelligent analysis", but sadly (& frustratingly) I have been forced to accept that a major part of it is the limits of my own abilities.

I'm drawing a distinction between racing and time trialling. TT is where I think sheer time and effort can pay off. Racing I don't think you've got that time, you're either on the pace or off and there's no time to spend hours shaving off tenths. That is my point. Hence a TT doesn't accurately reflect who is quickest in racing.

In either case though you have people who are just plain quick. And others who are reasonably fast through knowledge, training and dedication. The best people are those that combine both attributes and people with just one won't be able to catch them.

Coming up against the limit of my abilities doesn't concern me, hardly the first time in my life that would have happened. The interest for me is how far I can go. I like time trials as for me it's a combination of science and art.

The four races I've done have been spotty because of host connection errors and I'm not waiting for an hour for a short race. I'll get back into it when those problems are resolved. In the meantime, I need to be raising my game elsewhere.

 

[fasj6418]

people need to realize that being the best in the world is not for anyone. I´m sure we have more than 500.000 downloads of this demo, so if you are in the top 10%, that already means you´re a pretty good player, and i´m sure most GTP guys are on that 10 or 5% top.

my personal goal is to get a final time in the 23´s. If i get that, i´ll be very happy, regardless of the standings (speacially since i can´t get any prizes).

 

[Biggles]

I'm drawing a distinction between racing and time trialling. TT is where I think sheer time and effort can pay off. Racing I don't think you've got that time, you're either on the pace or off and there's no time to spend hours shaving off tenths. That is my point. Hence a TT doesn't accurately reflect who is quickest in racing.

I remember people making the same point back when GT5P first came out. However, in practice there proved to be little distinction between the fastest TT drivers & the fastest online racers.

Of course, if you've only spend half an hour on the TT then it's reasonable to expect that further practice might lead to lowering your lap ties significantly, but by the time you've spent several hours plugging away at the TT, the return you get from putting in extra time becomes progressively smaller - leading to the "top times seem impossible" syndrome. My suspicion is, that the fastest racers fairly quickly arrived at times much faster than the average person seems capable of, & then gradually chipped away at those times to record even lower times.

 

[Timppaq]

By doing a certain combo, your "safe" lap will be quicker and quicker. I bet Dan has now a safe lap of '35.6xx - '35.7xx in the tuned, I can now do a '35.8 quite easy. With safe lap I mean you still can make clear mistakes but still hit those and it's even reasonable easy. Then when you're able to drop that safe lap lower and lower you get more and more chances of hitting the "lucky laps" (as I like to call them ), what usually means .2 - .3 faster. From this equation I can see that I shoud be at 35.5 and Dan at 35.4

Coming to the racing part slowly now.. ..of course it's beneficial to have as low "safe lap" as possible.. and that's where the hours in tt'ing credit you. 👍

So to put long story short, TT's just works as a practise and you can't substitute wheel time with anything. Racecraft is another story still though... but knowing the abilities of yourself and the car and the track can never hurt you in a race.

And no, the top times do not seem impossible, just pretty damn hard to achieve. Major credit to all in 3'23's! 👍 Not an easy task to begin with. And a special mentioning to the person in 3'22's 👍 👍

BTW, if the chart in the another thread is correct, see the laps completed column there. The amount of laps in "a" country is directly proportional to the general pace of the said country. Take a look of the laps completed in Japan, for example.. 👍 (don't know if the table is correct though) edit, ok there is also the matter of total amount of players, but generally the top100 are usually the ones hitting the laps and that is what shows there too, I think.

here:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3693900&postcount=87

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

Having scraped a tenth off my tuned to leave me 1.9 seconds off the pace in a car that on the absolute limit of adhesion, I'm fairly adamant that is pretty much all the time there is available. Another 500 laps would no doubt remove the last .250 that has to be there somewhere if you get lucky. But the margin of 1.9 on the current time is just nonsense. I'm on the power so early every corner that even if my apex speeds where slightly slower, there's nothing like nearly a 2 second margin to be had. I'd have to be 10mph slower on the apex of every corner (which I'm not pretty obviously)

If there is telemetry in the final game that can be shared, I have no doubts that my feeling about anomalies in the physics will slowly be proven; either that or going faster requires you to do something incredibly counter-intuitive with your driving, leaving the game wholly inaccurate.

 

[The Outlaw]

It seems the GT5 demo has brought out a lot of trolls with obvious ego problems.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

It seems the GT5 demo has brought out a lot of trolls with obvious ego problems.

I don't see any need for that. My post is clearly on topic in a thread titled as this is. There's nothing wrong with me expressing an opinion about the validity of the times or how they are being achieved as much as you might not like that I think there are some questions to be answered.

Ego has nothing to do with it. If that's what you think everything boils down to them maybe it isn't me with the ego problem.

 

[tony1311]

I don't see any need for that. My post is clearly on topic in a thread titled as this is. There's nothing wrong with me expressing an opinion about the validity of the times or how they are being achieved as much as you might not like that I think there are some questions to be answered.

Ego has nothing to do with it. If that's what you think everything boils down to them maybe it isn't me with the ego problem.

Well said.

Besides the fact that the times are not in any way invalid, but achieved in an illogical way of driving to suit the abnormal physics.

 

[MeAgainstYou]

Well said.

Besides the fact that the times are not in any way invalid, but achieved in an illogical way of driving to suit the abnormal physics.

there's another troll

great post Timo

 

[GTP_rpm]

Well said.

Besides the fact that the times are not in any way invalid, but achieved in an illogical way of driving to suit the abnormal physics.

All the more reason why you should be at the top, tony1113 (sic.).

 

[The Outlaw]

I don't see any need for that. My post is clearly on topic in a thread titled as this is. There's nothing wrong with me expressing an opinion about the validity of the times or how they are being achieved as much as you might not like that I think there are some questions to be answered.

Ego has nothing to do with it. If that's what you think everything boils down to them maybe it isn't me with the ego problem.

Fact is...you're 2 seconds off pace in a game/track/car which is EXACTLY the same in every conceivable way from country to country, and from driver to driver. You simply have a hard time accepting this fact because that would hurt your ego (in thinking that you are every bit as good as the best GT driver), so instead you decide to troll the forum by basically accusing the makers of the game that there are anomalies within different GT5 demo's that allows some drivers to potentially go faster than others - "I don't know what game people are playing to do these times, but it's not the one running on my console." It's rather laughable when you have absolutely no VALID proof to back such claims up, other than the delusions you've made up in your head.

You say "no-one is two seconds a lap quicker than me (or a lot of other people for that matter)" and that you are also .250 away from the absolute potential best lap time which you've made up in your head, based upon your own personal limits, which you feel are as good as the best in the world.

There are of course some inaccuracies in the realism of the physics and what it takes to extract those last few tenths (more so with the tuned car), but regardless, this inaccuracies still don't add up to the two seconds you're missing and making excuses for

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

Fact is...you're two 2 seconds off pace in a game/track/car which is EXACTLY the same in every conceivable way from country to country, and from driver to driver. You simply have a hard time accepting this fact because that would hurt your ego (in thinking that you are every bit as good as the best GT driver), so instead you decide to troll the forum by basically accusing the makers of the game that there is an anomaly within the game that allows some drivers to potentially go faster than others. It's rather laughable when you have absolutely no VALID proof to back such claims up, other than the delusions you've made up in your head.

You say "no-one is two seconds a lap quicker than me (or a lot of other people for that matter)" and that you are also .250 away from the absolute potential best lap time which you've made up in your head, based upon your own personal limits, which you feel are as good as the best in the world.

There are of course some inaccuracies in the realism of the physics and what it takes to extract those last few tenths (more so with the tuned car), but regardless, this inaccuracies still don't add up to the two seconds you're missing and making excuses for

Other than calling me a troll again, which I can only assume you use to refer to anyone whose opinion differs from your own, you've taken 3 paragraphs to state that I'm wrong.

To correct you, the inaccuracies in the physics add up to in the region of 1.65 seconds (1.9-0.25 still available, using predictable "normal" driving style).

The limits of the car are self-evident or from trial and error if one chooses to prove the point by purposely carrying slightly more speed into the corner, resulting in the turn being missed or compromised. Doing that for every corner provides you with all the info you need. All you have to do afterwards is string the corners together at the predetermined speeds; there's nothing magical about it.

Bottom line is that obviously you can get the car through the corners quicker somehow, but it's seemingly more by pushing or bending some part of the physics and/or knowing where the physics modeling falls apart allowing you to get around quicker, rather than putting in a perfectly controlled lap based on normal assumptions.

 

[Hyper-Dan]

Fact is...you're two 2 seconds off pace in a game/track/car which is EXACTLY the same in every conceivable way from country to country, and from driver to driver.

FTW 👍

 

[GTP_rpm]

Other than calling me a troll again, which I can only assume you use to refer to anyone whose opinion differs from your own, you've taken 3 paragraphs to state that I'm wrong.

To correct you, the inaccuracies in the physics add up to in the region of 1.65 seconds (1.9-0.25 still available, using predictable "normal" driving style).

The limits of the car are self-evident or from trial and error if one chooses to prove the point by purposely carrying slightly more speed into the corner, resulting in the turn being missed or compromised. Doing that for every corner provides you with all the info you need. All you have to do afterwards is string the corners together at the predetermined speeds; there's nothing magical about it.

Bottom line is that obviously you can get the car through the corners quicker somehow, but it's seemingly more by pushing or bending some part of the physics and/or knowing where the physics modeling falls apart allowing you to get around quicker, rather than putting in a perfectly controlled lap based on normal assumptions.

I have a friend who is a part time comedian and he's with me now and when reading this, he's asked if he could use this quote of yours in one of his next gigs?

He found the last part, especially warming to his humour chords.

"Normal assumptions" is so, SO brilliant he's admitted you've already qualified to be a better comedian than him. Unfortunately, he's still better than you at Gran Turismo.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

I have a friend who is a part time comedian and he's with me now and when reading this, he's asked if he could use this quote of yours in one of his next gigs?

He found the last part, especially warming to his humour chords.

"Normal assumptions" is so, SO brilliant he's admitted you've already qualified to be a better comedian than him. Unfortunately, he's still better than you at Gran Turismo.

Clearly if he finds that brilliant, then the quality of his routines must be sorely lacking.

 

[MeAgainstYou]

Fact is...you're two 2 seconds off pace in a game/track/car which is EXACTLY the same in every conceivable way from country to country, and from driver to driver. You simply have a hard time accepting this fact because that would hurt your ego (in thinking that you are every bit as good as the best GT driver), so instead you decide to troll the forum by basically accusing the makers of the game that there are anomalies within different GT5 demo's that allows some drivers to potentially go faster than others - "I don't know what game people are playing to do these times, but it's not the one running on my console." It's rather laughable when you have absolutely no VALID proof to back such claims up, other than the delusions you've made up in your head.

You say "no-one is two seconds a lap quicker than me (or a lot of other people for that matter)" and that you are also .250 away from the absolute potential best lap time which you've made up in your head, based upon your own personal limits, which you feel are as good as the best in the world.

There are of course some inaccuracies in the realism of the physics and what it takes to extract those last few tenths (more so with the tuned car), but regardless, this inaccuracies still don't add up to the two seconds you're missing and making excuses for

you give no chances for him to argue now

@DrTrouserPlank: deep deep.. you know there're better players and its not the physics or other imaginable weird things.. give it time maybe...

edit: wrong quote sorry , changed now

 

[The Outlaw]

Other than calling me a troll again, which I can only assume you use to refer to anyone whose opinion differs from your own, you've taken 3 paragraphs to state that I'm wrong.

To correct YOU (), I didn't call you a troll AGAIN. I specifically said: "instead you decide to troll the forum", which is an ACTION.

And I'm sorry I can't accept peoples opinions when they are just plain wrong. Do I accept actions of terrorist trying to blow me up simply because their opinions are different to? No I don't accept that either, and why should I? So why should I accept the fact that you're trying to spread misinformation either?

To correct you, the inaccuracies in the physics add up to in the region of 1.65 seconds (1.9-0.25 still available, using predictable "normal" driving style).

The limits of the car are self-evident or from trial and error if one chooses to prove the point by purposely carrying slightly more speed into the corner, resulting in the turn being missed or compromised. Doing that for every corner provides you with all the info you need. All you have to do afterwards is string the corners together at the predetermined speeds; there's nothing magical about it.

I think we all wished it was that simple....we could all be racing drivers and what would be the point for a competition like GT Academy?

Bottom line is that obviously you can get the car through the corners quicker somehow, but it's seemingly more by pushing or bending some part of the physics and/or knowing where the physics modeling falls apart allowing you to get around quicker, rather than putting in a perfectly controlled lap based on normal assumptions.

Ok, so you've gone from saying this: "I don't know what game people are playing to do these times, but it's not the one running on my console." To accepting that this isn't the case, and your lack of performance strictly comes down to inaccuracies in the physics that cause you to lose over 1.5 seconds a lap.

AT least stick to your original excuse and story if you want to have any type of credibility

FTW 👍

Muwahaha...thanks for the laugh Thank god I'm hiding behind this computer, or else I might have to head butt someone into oblivion

 

[GTP_rpm]

Clearly if he finds that brilliant, then the quality of his routines must be sorely lacking.

Yeah, it is tbh.

He gets an audience of about 5-6 people every last Thursday of a month. And those are his family.

If only he could be as funny as you

Chin up mate, it's a computer game. There is no "real" physics to be implemented. The large proportion of users, are playing with a conroller! As like any game, it's about how you work around it...whether it's Streets of Rage, or Lemmings...or Fifa '09...it's about how you work around it.

Same as any real life game, or car/track combo.

"Normal assumptions" cannot solve cancer, rocket science issues or world hunger...let alone a good couple of laps on a computer game